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FIANNA FÁIL THIS week announced a policy of permanently abolishing water charges, and funding Ireland’s water system from general taxation, in their submission to the Expert Commission on Domestic Public Water Services.
On RTE Radio One’s Morning Ireland, he rejected the accusation of a U-Turn by the party, claiming:
Our submission is very consistent with our general election position.
Is that true? Ciaran Sunderland in Co Louth asked us to check it out.
(Remember, if you hear a politician making claims about their record, email factcheck@thejournal.ie or tweet @TJ_FactCheck).
Claim: Fianna Fáil’s policy on water charges is consistent with what they said during the election
Verdict: Half-TRUE
What was said:
You can listen to the Morning Ireland interview in full here. And you can watch a video containing Micheál Martin’s comments on Monday, and a rundown of his party’s previous positions on water charges, above.
But for the purpose of this FactCheck, the claim in question, from Morning Ireland, is this:
Our submission is very consistent with our general election position.
During the election campaign, and shortly before it, Fianna Fáil articulated essentially two positions on water charges.
Here is a selection of significant and illustrative examples of how the party’s public expressions on the subject vacillated between those two policies.
5 January: Fianna Fáil Environment Spokesperson Barry Cowen tells TheJournal.ie his party plans to suspend water charges, and says “they would come in eventually…possibly seven, eight, 10 years down the road”. (Suspension).
16 January: In his Ard Fheis speech, Micheál Martin says: “We will scrap Irish Water, and the failed, loss-making charge which funds it”. (Abolition).
(Starts 14.44)
3 February: General election campaign formally begins
5 February: In a Fianna Fáil election campaign video, Waterford candidate (and now TD) Mary Butler articulates the commitment “We will scrap Irish Water and the loss-making charge that funds it”. (Abolition).
(Starts 1.49)
11 February: Fianna Fáil’s General Election 2016 manifesto (page 5) commits to abolishing water charges and Irish Water.
We will…abolish Irish Water and water charges
There is no reference to suspension, reintroduction, a timeline or time limit, in the manifesto. (Abolition).
However, in a speech to launch the manifesto on the same day, Micheál Martin promotes a policy of suspension:
We will…abolish Irish Water and scrap water charges for the next five years. [Emphasis added].
17 February
Micheál Martin appears on the RTE Six One News, and has this exchange with presenter Bryan Dobson, where he appears to say his party’s policy is abolition, rather than suspension, of water charges:
BD: You’re saying you want to abolish Irish Water as a body, but replace it with something else, and you want to scrap the water charge. Is that basically your position?
MM: That is our position…
19 February
Two days later, Martin appears on RTE Radio One’s Today with Seán O’Rourke, and says Fianna Fáil would suspend water charges for five years, and then reintroduce them.
24 February
Speaking to the Irish Examiner, Barry Cowen reiterates the view expressed to TheJournal.ie in January, that Fianna Fáil would suspend and then reintroduce water charges once infrastructure has been improved, after “at least 10 years”, and adds that the charge would be “in the region of €50 or €100″ per year.
9 March
In a statement, Barry Cowen says:
The Fianna Fáil position on water charges is clear. We will end them…Abolishing water charges will save ordinary families €800 over the next five years.
…Fianna Fáil is committed to ending water charges and saving ordinary families €800 over the next five years.
Despite Cowen’s contention, it is not clear what the meaning of these statements is. “We will end [water charges]“, would appear to be a definitive commitment to abolishing (i.e. ending, as opposed to suspending) them.
However, the phrase “over the next five years” could apply to the time period during which they would end (or rather, suspend) the charges, or simply the time period over which families could purportedly save a total of €800 from their abolition.
Later in March and during April, statements by Fianna Fáil and its spokespersons and TDs begin to coalesce around the position of favouring a five-year suspension of charges, with the abolition of Irish Water.
3 May
Fianna Fáil signs a “confidence and supply” agreement with Fine Gael, to:
Keep Irish Water in place (with added external oversight); suspend water charges for nine months; and establish an expert commission on water services.
12 September
Fianna Fáil’s submission to the expert commission on water services is leaked to the media. In it, the party proposes the permanent abolition (not suspension) of water charges, and the retention of Irish Water.
Unfortunately, FactCheck cannot publish the document at this time. We try not to use non-public sources, but since this submission will eventually (probably very soon) be made public, we are using it as evidence, in this instance.
We will update this article with a link to the document, when that happens.
It says:
Domestic Water charges should be ended and the revenue loss compensated by an increase in the exchequer subvention. Irish Water should remain solely in public ownership.
This is a clear call for the permanent abolition of water charges, to be replaced with funding from general taxation, and a call for Irish Water to remain in place, and in public ownership, albeit under enhanced external oversight.
However, as of this evening, the Fianna Fáil website still stated:
Fianna Fáil is committed to:
- Abolishing Irish Water
- Suspending water charges
It is clear that Fianna Fáil expressed two different positions on water charges throughout the general election period.
The position set out in their submission to the expert commission is, in brief:
Therefore, Fianna Fáil’s current policy on water charges is mostly inconsistent with the policies they set out during the general election campaign.
However, Fianna Fáil told FactCheck that Micheál Martin’s claim on Morning Ireland, that “Our submission is very consistent with our general election position”, referred specifically to water charges, and not Irish Water.
This is a reasonable clarification, since the question Martin was answering did, indeed, relate exclusively to the policy of abolishing water charges.
And later in the interview, he admitted that the party’s position on the future of Irish Water had changed.
Accepting, as we do, that the Fianna Fáil leader’s claim was relating only to the abolition of water charges, we rate the claim Half-TRUE.
This is because the party at times articulated this position during the election campaign, and at other times supported a suspension of the charges.
However, Fianna Fáil’s overall water charges policy (on the charges themselves, and the future of Irish Water) has been inconsistent since the beginning of the election campaign.
And the overall policy outlined in their submission (keep Irish Water, abolish water charges) is mostly inconsistent with the two positions set out by Fianna Fáil during the election.
Send your FactCheck requests to factcheck@thejournal.ie
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Getting a straight answer from Mehole is like dancing with smoke… Like everyone else in Dáil Éireann ..he’ll tell you exactly what you want to hear but never the truth.
FFs position is always consistent with what’s best for the billionaire class.
Exactly Tony
FF aren’t the only ones who are entirely inconsistent on Water.
SF are at it too. First they were going to pay. Then they jumped the AAA anti charges bandwagon.
For the last 18 months they’ve been definitely, DEFINITELY against water charges.
And now……”Sinn Fein Yes to Water Charges” ???
http://www.donegalnow.com/news/policy-change-shock-as-sinn-fein-meps-say-yes-to-water-charges/40949
Whether you pay 150 a year in charges or in taxes you will end up paying.. Its doing something different but with the same outcome. Council rates should be reintroduced.. They should never have been abolished – its time to decentralise properly snd give local councils proper authority.
FG in fairness have been very consistent on water charges. They’ve always wanted to privatise the water infrastructure and hand it over to Denis O Brien for maximum profit gouging.
He lies out of both sides of his mouth at the same time….they are all a pack of opportunists.
Half truth half lie.
sitting on da fence like most political sponsors.
That’s not true at all Brinster, they did not say yes to water charges and we’ll you know it.. Obfuscation!
Folks I think FF are being very consistent ,they are the most opportunist party in Ireland for decades ,one policy in opposition ,another to counter SF and wait for it another when in Government .That is why the Irish people love them ,they are in love with chancers .
Basically with FF it’s been agree to water charges, then suspend, abolish, suspend, abolish.. More twisting than a snake.
His claim to fame is the smoking ban other than that he has to be one of the worst politicians this country has ever seen. Then again he is with the majority of politicians. On another note I do hope he holds on to the party leadership.
brinster, you really bring nothing to the conversation other than spoofing, do you?
Sinn Feins policy has always been that they oppose water charges but would leave it to individuals to decide whether or not to pay their bill.
But we both know that, don’t we?
Ff should tell the truth about mary boyle and clean up their party.their days of sleeveen politics are over.
The quote (link) your using is a story from FG MEP mairead mcguinness. FFs vote is the vote which matters as theybcan topple the government
By the way Mr Martin, can you please publish the legal advice stating water charges and therefore IW can be discarded?
As long as water charges are abolished once and for all, that is the important thing.
The initial insistence on the PPS number was a real give away. Let water supply remain in public ownership.
Privatisation of public services is a very bad idea.
Fully in agreement with you on this Michael.
The water charge will be abolished and then be introduced as part of general taxation. Nobody is fooled on this one.
The sooner the better the government realise they have lost on water charges the better. These stooges are supposed to be our servants not our masters!
Yes, and once charges are abolished the sky fairies will swoop down and pay for the water!! We pay anyway. Why not meter it and in doing so have the biggest users pay the most and also encourage concert action. But that would make too much sense so let’s protest instead!!!
Damned predictive text. Concert Action = Conservation. But I’m also pro concert action for the record
Privatisation of Dublin bus would be great tomorrow
@Cathal, everyone including the dog on the street know we already pay for water, the main reason for the protests is the amount of money being thrown at IW ( with the aim of privatising it ) when the money could be used to repair and upgrade the system, you would find people would not be so upset at an increase on water charges to cover the extra cost, there was no need to set up IW in the first place as there was already a system in place which could of been updated at a lot less cost….
Have to disagree with you there. There were 31 authorities looking after an antiquated system. Setting up a single centralised utility company was the completely obvious solution and in fairness to them, the early figures indicate that the efficiencies and conservations achieved will have major savings for the taxpayer in the long run. The issue over how water is paid for is separate altogether. The central utility was a modern and smart call. Just imagine if the ESB was split into 31 zones run by 31 different authorities and the mess and costs that would bring
Ill bet our elites would like Factcheck discontinued….
In this instance I’m quite confident people will have known the answer prior to reading the article.
Fianna Fail have eventually flip flopped to the the will of the people.
Is that not a good thing… They’ve flip flopped to the will of the people… Democracy in full flight there methinks
If there is an election looming FF will say anything you want to hear. Would you buy a car from Mehole Martin.
What Fianna Fail does and says depends which way the wind is blowing.
Same as fg reg?
FF had chance to abolish. Voted to suspend. Now want rid. These are the facts. In 2 sentences . They signed up for it. What more facts are needed..
Election about to come brought on by FF. Am i wrong anywhere here ? Trust , chuckle ☺
Like water,FF go with the flow !
Our politicians as a whole will , and i stress will come up with another means to pay. Do not trust those whom sold you out ….
But this position is not consistent if you go back to when they were in government. In 2010 they deliberately threw away our derogation on direct charging, meaning we now have a legal fight on our hands. Let’s not forget, when the Commission come knocking to see why we haven’t implemented the appropriate directive it will be FFs fault, not the EU – the Commission will just be doing their job.
Absolutely correct. Why was this inconsistency not highlighted in the article? FF u turned their position that win the election and failed!
Am I really the only one that thinks it’s right to charge for water? It’s the most precious resource but one that costs a lot to supply. Surely it’s right to incentivise water conservation and to dis-incentivise water wastage? Yes of course there should be adequate allowances and the vulnerable need protection but in the main we need to encourage conservation.
Perhaps petrol, diesel and home heating oil should also be free and costs recouped through “general taxation”? But sure that’s just mad Ted
Jack – explain how anything in the set-up of IW did anything to ” incentivise water conservation and to dis-incentivise water wastage”? Please – nobody else has, to date….
IW installed water meters. Water meters measure consumption. Consumption, above a threshold, incurs a charge. Charging is a dis-incentive to waste for the majority of the population.
I don’t want extra charges any more than the next person but if there are going to be charges anyway through “general taxation” then I would prefer the model that encourages people to reduce their liability through conservation.
Give us realistic allowances and affordable charges and I think the country will benefit through improved water networks and a more sustainable water supply for all.
Jack – that all sounds fine, but apart from installing meters, that’s not what happened. So back to my original question…
Ok, so we agree on the principle of paying for ‘some’ consumption. I agree that IW failed to win over the electorate with their charging rates but it was a pretty impossible task anyway.
Now, government have a good measure of what to do differently and can unveil a shiny new version of IW (at further taxpayer expense) which will cost less than half of the previous version, will be *kindof* acceptable to the electorate and appease EU at the same time.
Look the main thing is they’re on the right side of history at the moment. The will of the people, that’s all that matters at the end of the day.
Big Protest this weekend.
BE THERE.
Or be a plane figure with four equal straight sides and four right angles.
Right on man.
FF the party we have to thank for the bank guarantee, USC, the HSE, that FF!
At the end of the day nothing will change. just taxing in a different way. which means we will still be paying for the resource. They won’t go against the European Union. They are puppets working for the European council. Irexit. They are not listening to you and me. Only Brussels. Regards.
Fianna fail have changed their views all the time and have never been involved in water protests so could be more u turns from them
FF man speaks with forked tongue.
fine fael are a joke
Me thinks I need votes for next election , why not get rid of the charges now instead of waiting until there is a next government just so you can get voted in again Mr.Martin.
What a load of opportunistic nonsense. The two main parties here would never stand up to Europe and its Europe telling us.we must pay.
Abolition not suspension.
Sorry to be picky, and I am an admirer of Fact Check, but on this occasion the task has been blurred. The question is about FF’s policy on water charges. The conflict between their positions on suspending or abolishing charges is absolutely questionable. However, their position on Irish Water is outside the scope of the question to be answered. There is a risk of the impression of bias when someone goes beyond the question to be answered. That’s just my tuppence worth and definitely not a party political view.
In other words, trust us we don’t know what we’re doing.
This is the final tax that broke the camels back…we will do jail time before we pay this one minister..
Abolishing water charges and funding the IW through general taxation is the way to go. The costs of disbanding IW plus redundancies and then you have the unions who will not make it easy as they are still hurt from their comrades in Labour been hammered in the spring.
Keep an eye on contracts and make sure that when they are up onlu those needed can stay on and those who may only be there due to knowing Kelly are gone.
I see SF backed charging for water in the EU today too.http://www.donegalnow.com/news/policy-change-shock-as-sinn-fein-meps-say-yes-to-water-charges/40949
Err…that link is from 2015….and if you knew about what went on you would see that they backed countries to be able to make their own decisions about whether to charge or not….now…… don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Haughy thought all these shisters very well a bunch of CORRUPT wanna be s dont believe a word
A senseable person would be some idiot to believe a word irish sham polititions dribble out of theor gobs if we want new politics we must have new people in real goverment not the sham there now most of them couldent lie down straight there so bent
I need a new jumper
We all protested about the water charges so why are we not out there protesting about motor insurance, we didn’t like the fact that we would have had a new bill but it’s OK to add on to the bills we already have???
I understand your rage Linda, I’m a car owner. However, hundreds of thousands of people are not car owners as having one is a luxury. It is not comparable to water charges which every single household was being bullied and forced to pay.
Every single household will also be forced to pay the substitute water charge which will added to the “general taxation” charge.
Insurance cartels, if that’s the case, is a huge issue. Car ownership is no longer a luxury for the majority of households in Ireland. Linda is perfectly correct, in my opinion.
No Ian, not every single household was being forced to pay. Only those using the resource were being forced to pay. Many thousands have their own supply, bought and paid for. These households will be forced to pay again through general taxation if FF get their way
The Fianna Failures are the great architects of the Irish water debacle, but not very good at the blame game unless dealing with people of sub standard intelligence. Still, it’s not fair to take advantage of their followers…
Fianna fails position on water charges has been consistantly
Yes consistantly yes/no
Constaintly changing
If You Mean Something – Damn Stand By It!
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Fianna Fail latest re-charging antics on water is seriously stretching their credibility – what little is left of it with the public. As a journal.ie article exposes in the last few hours, the party has frankly been all over the place on the matter of water re-charging and Irish Water – cowardly ducking the meter usage issue and a constitution anti-privatisation amendment.
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Let’s stop beating around the bush and call it as it is at the moment.
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* Fianna Fail NOW says it wants to scrap water re-charges.
* Fianna Fail won’t however, support a measure to see the re-charging attempt gone!
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Regardless of what other party might be also playing politics on the issue, stuff them, stuff the lot of them… If you take a position, stick to the ruddy position and support those that hold the same view!
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Ok – if others might also being playing footloose on the topic – then say so – but at least have the balls to stick with what you are trying to PR sell to a voting public. Fianna Fail un-merry dance around the whole water-recharging issue, is exasperating, annoying, and a downright disaster as regards sustaining their dying credibility on the issue.
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While we are at it, lets state more facts?
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There is too many damn parties unwilling to state where they stand clearly on all matters surrounding the whole water fiasco. Here is where UnitedPeople stands:
1. “Irish Water”, the private company has to go. End of story!
2. The usage of water meters to re-charge. has to go!
3. The attempts to re-charge for water again, has to go!
4. There has to be a constitution amendment to protect our natural resource and connected services from privatisation.
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Some parties are dancing back and forth on the water re-charging issue. They however, shortly thereafter cowardly crawl back under a rock, not daring to mention where they further stand on “Irish Water” or the usage of meters. The spineless wimps are ducking the other issues desperately. This is not damn good enough for the voters of Ireland!
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They should all get off the damn fence and state EXACTLY where they stand on all four points. Right now however their merry bloody dance around only what they want to speak about, continues – and its annoying the hell out of many people while undermining their own credibility and party, on the whole issue.
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…And they all want to try running the country? If they can’t get their damn act together on one major issue, how in hell are they going to further handle a whole bunch of them in government office?
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The whole crap around our nations water has got to end.
It’s #Timeforbetter
In other words what they are saying is “WAFFLE”
Half true means it’s a lie. FF are clearly dithering and saying two opposing things.
I don’t wear flip-flops and my position is clear, I have not and will not pay Irish water one red cent, what ever the crooks in dail eireann decide, I still won’t pay
have your say