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Updated 3.25 pm
THE CHAIRMAN OF the board of Nama has defended the organisation’s controversial sale of its entire Northern Ireland portfolio in front of the Dáil Public Accounts Committee.
Frank Daly said that the sale of the Project Eagle portfolio for €1.6 billion to US firm Cerberus in April 2014 was the best deal the organisation could have got.
He roundly rejected the findings of the recent report by the Comptroller & Auditor General (C&AG) which found that Nama could have gotten more for the sale.
The C&AG report found that the sale represented a probable loss of £190 million (€220 million) to the State.
Daly said that Nama “acted commercially” at all times.
“Nama does not believe that… the sale represented a probable loss to Irish taxpayers,” he said.
He also said that the price set on the Northen Ireland loanbook was voted on unanimously by the board of directors and no one else.
“Nobody influenced Nama on this,” he said.
He said that he rejected the findings of the C&AG, calling the dispute a “serious professional disagreement”.
Earlier, the Auditor General was forced to defend his staff’s experience in compiling the report under questioning by a Fine Gael member of the Public Accounts Committee.
Minister for Finance Michael Noonan, who oversaw the sales process, will attend the PAC on 6 October, after reportedly receiving legal advice from the Attorney General that he could be compelled to attend the committee if he refused their invitation.
This morning, Fine Gael TD Peter Burke asked whether the C&AG’s staff had staff with sufficient commercial expertise in order to sift through Nama’s transactions.
Auditor General Seamus McCarthy said that his staff also audit the HSE, the NTMA and the Central Bank, and that they had been “engaged in an audit of public bodies for several years”.
I don’t believe that we are without relevant qualifications.
Standard
He added: “I’m satisfied that our staff has the experience… we use the same techniques that Nama use for its cashflow projections. It’s a pretty standard methodology.”
The C&AG also rejected Burke’s contention that the whole process was “very complex”.
“It’s standard, it’s a standard methodology,” he told the committee.
David Cullinane of Sinn Féin later asked the C&AG to outline the expertise in his office.
C&AG said he had already done this when Cullinane was absent from the committee.
Not true
Deputy Burke also asked whether it was true that the C&AG attended Nama’s audit committee meetings. McCarthy said this was not true, but that some of staff attended up to nine meetings a year, but only at the invitation of Nama.
McCarthy also said he and his team looked at 2,000 documents, which Nama extracted from 40,000 documents pertaining to the whole process.
He began this morning’s session by saying that his office was never challenged by an audited body in the way it was challenged by Nama.
Del Boy
“I am happy I was able to publish the report I wanted to,” McCarthy added.
The obligation is on me to give my opinion.
The C&AG’s report raised questions about how the loan portfolio was valued and marketed for sale, as well as discussing potential conflicts of interest.
Fianna Fáil’s Shane Cassells accused Nama of approaching the report in a way “that strikes me as a Del Boy attitude”.
Cassells also told the hearing that the C&AG he had “given us a taste and left us hanging” in regard to Nama’s actions.
Asked whether Nama had just done what they were legally obliged to do, rather than what was prudent, the C&AG said: “I think they could have done more.”
He added: “My point is Nama could have made further inquiries and taken further action.
“You have to do what’s right in the situation. It’s a very experienced [Nama] board… I can’t say what decision they should have taken.”
Appropriate
Nama have also been busy this morning. Their PR company Gordon MRM has disputed some of the Auditor General’s statements, particularly the contention that Nama didn’t dispute the discount rates contained in the report until June, though they had been shown the first drafts in January.
Gordon MRM / Twitterhe is incorrect on this point
— Gordon MRM (@gordon_mrm) September 29, 2016
Mary Lou MacDonald said that Nama had criticised the C&AG for “not meeting” with the Nama board.
McCarthy said the was a letter of request from Nama for the C&AG to meet the board in April 2016, but he didn’t think that was appropriate.
“My concern was that I needed something on record,” McCarthy said.
I can’t rely on a conversation… for my report. What I wanted was a single view from the board.
“If I was to engage with board members, I would have wanted to put a series of questions to them, so we were into a whole other process around that.
“I really didn’t want another area where we were disagreeing over what had been said.”
The C&AG also confirmed that no contact was made with either Ronnie Hanna, then Nama’s head of asset recovery, or Frank Cushnahan. He said that doing so would have moved his audit into “inquiry mode”.
Obliged
Asked by Fianna Fáil’s Marc McSharry about the situation whereby one State agency (Nama) is disputing the findings of another (the C&AG), McCarthy said:
“I think it’s not a situation that I would have wanted, and if there were anything I could do that could have prevented it I would have.
“At the end of the day my role under the Constitution, me as Auditor General, I have to report.
“I am obliged, if I feel there is a matter I have to report, on to report to the best of my ability.”
Gordon MRM / TwitterI think it would be more like Del Boy to ignore Brexit risk and say "things will be fine" https://t.co/LQ2QpBn6gw
— Gordon MRM (@gordon_mrm) September 29, 2016
McCarthy said that his staff are currently auditing Nama for 2016.
“Normal relations are in place,” he said. My staff are working in Nama at the moment on the audit, and I have spoken to them is anything ok.
“There is no difficulty, everybody is behaving in a very professional way.”
Nama’s response
Appearing before the committee this lunchtime, Nama has said it was “extraordinary” the C&AG didn’t use external expert advice in its Project Eagle investigation.
Nama chief executive Brendan McDonagh said he “emphatically rejects” the C&AG’s key conclusion that the sale of the Project Eagle portfolio involved a “significant probable loss of value to the State”.
With reporting from Cormac Fitzgerald
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FG once again ignoring the stench of corruption to row in behind the people who firesaled the Irish peoples assets to vulture funds for a song. Well I’m shocked I tells ya!
Just ONCE please, can we see Fine Gael stand up for the interests of the 99%, while we still have some assets left in the state??
They’ll require a spine in order to stand up. Fine Gaels momentum for corruption is fuelled by their very own indifference to it.
Jesus..is that the best FG can do? Question the competency of the CG and his staff? The whole Nama experiment is rank with corruption and the net is starting to close in. I think FG are getting a bit antsy.
Standard FG response, attempt to discredit the messenger rather than address the message!
The CG has blown that attempt clean out of the water.
A great man is our Minister of Finance he should get a knighthood for his service to the vulture funds.
I’ve a feeling the competency question is just a precursor from NAMA/FG. Later they will try to quash findings on the basis of their reports by their own (independent) auditors who will have ‘higher’ qualifications. It’ll be all written off as differences of (expert) opinion.
@For Connolly:
Similar to the monies withdrawn from the Ulster Bank without the owners consent in one very large withdrawl?
Are those the assets you refer to?
Bloody hell Alan, that is some serious attempt at deflection. Wtf has this article got to do with your point?
@Alan Cooke … Please stick to the subject..your becoming boring
Enda kenny and michael noonan are state bosses why is fine gael td questioning the compency of someone employed by them why where enda or michael aware of there incompency
C&AG seem like they have done their homework. Should be interesting
@LITTLEONE: nama operated like del boy,,,, noonan was ” the plonker ”
Laughable that the C&AG’s office was loaded with imbeciles and unqualified people so they had to bring in two lads from the UK to oversee their investigation in to Project Eagle.
They got in 2 experts in the field to double check they’d crossed the t’s and dotted the i’s. I think they deserve great credit for a job well done.
@Shane O Malley: frank daly looking more like arthur daly by the hour
@jane: the two experts were brought in because the C&AG’s office had’nt a clue.You will find the same level of incompetence running right through the Dept of Finance and Justice.
If the government was a properly functioning government NAMA would not exist..
I think you will find that a very high proportion of C an AG staff are qualified accountants at a minimum and a lot more hold various other qualifications. I do not know the “two lads” they brought in from England but due to the seriousness and complexity of he report, it was prudent of them to obtain a second opinion or an oversight. The C and AG has done exemplary work in Ireland over many decades and its standards of professionalism are extremely high.
Maybe my morning coffee hasn’t kicked in yet, but this reads like it was written by a 12 year old.
Edna’s shoes must have reduced somewhat in February seeing as he could not exchange them!!!! Maybe sold to a vulture fund.
The entitled of the country can plunder and steal at will. No accountability and staunch defense from the FG led government.
Corruption at its finest.
How serious can you take these people,told to turn off their phone , they are all reading text
That headline does a serious disservice to the seriousness of the questioning in PAC committee meeting. It is not about the best soundbyte but indeed delving into the murky world of NAMA NTMA etc
Some of the questioning from FG TD’s especially was rather insulting both to those representing CNAG and the viewing/listening public.
The stand out comment from CAG was: ‘This NAMA sales process doesn’t give me adequate assurance that NAMA achieved the best price for Project Eagle’ That should be your headline as that is what we should be concerned about
NAMA also found it extraordinary that they didn’t use external advice. The CAG defended the credentials of their staff, listed experience in auditing several other state bodies and NAMA still want to go to consultants
They have the knifes out for one another…
NAMA should have divided these NI properties into their individual titles and sold them out one by one giving locals
access to buying rather than selling the NI portfolio as a bundle.The “bundle’ sale is simply the lazy way of selling
because it restricts potential buyers to a few without any demonstrable synergy in doing so. Let’s face it, if it is better
to sell out a complete apartment development as a single sale then why have developers and builders been selling
out these apartments one by one to end users.
Any review of project Eagle should consider the option of having sold this portfolio of properties one by one rather
than a complicated deal to venture capitalists who will later sell out the units one by one at massive profits.
NAMA cost the taxpayer a fortune to run and they then farm out the sales to R/E agents/dealmakers who skim what they
can for the deal.
We should sell the lot now bit by bit over the next 2 years so that we can pay down debt and be transparent with
the taxpayer. Just have a look at the NAMA property site. Its a mess with most of its properties not yet listed for sale.
Then have a look at these derelict/semi-derelict properties that are deteriorating over time .
We have enough monuments for the tourist and we don’t need these Celtic Tiger monuments to remind us of
our abject stupidity or to portray us as a laughing stock to the rest of the world.
A new decentralisation program would help to alleviate Dublin property shortages/Dublin traffic/transport snags and find productive use for these Celtic Tiger Monuments.The 21st century offers us the ability to be global so why hive in
Dublin and then spruik our high-tech abilities? It doesn’t make sense.
Meaningless nonsense. As if anyone will ever be held to account for wrongdoing and corruption because the PAC say so. Ireland and corruption exercised by powerful people go hand in hand. We the lower order accept it. Hell. That’s just the way it is!!!!
Do you remember FAS? It’s not there any more..
@rodrigo detriano:
That’s just the way it is?…. why has that become the accepted normality?
If we accept “that’s just the way it is” then that will be the way it is. Countless generations before us didn’t accept that notion, if they had we’d be living in “little Britain”. It’s not just the way it is, it’s the way things are and the way things are can always be changed.
Yes, it still is. It just got rebranded.
The Irish media yet again completely asleep at the wheel when it came to NAMA or then again maybe the news editors were completely seduced by the millions spent/wasted by various government departments in the buying up of advertising space.
Noonan has lost us billions,the rich got richer through him,minister for justice and garda commissioner has the garda force in chaos ,Ross has transport in chaos,how are these people still in situ.
How exactly does the Irish taxpayer benefit fron Namas dealings? How can they act in the interest of the taxpayer? Do they mean the exchequer?
NAMA being exposed,great work done.
@@mdmak33: At least we are in recovery and our gdp is 25% so its not all bad news is it? is it? is it ? .They would,nt be telling porkies would they ?
I’m sure Rodders done the sales end of it, sure else could have made such a Cock up?
Was this article written by a child?
Oh right ya, in the tax payers interest is it?, depends on what you would consider tax payers interest.
I suppose that’s why they wanted to appeal the apple tax (in our interest) but where was the appeal when it came to all the austerity measures that were slapped on us unjustly and the “indirect taxes” that followed?……in our interest alright. Christ our government is an embarrassment! I think it’s long overdue for all of us to tell these morons to just go home for themselves.
Time for Daly and McDonagh to be sacked!
They are either Incompetent or dodgy dealers.
What are the NAMA guys trying to hide and where does the corruption end?
Have to say I was very impressed with Mary Lou ,took no crap
NAMA was set up to loose money. It was to sell property in debt and get in cash asap. It’s only now they are questioning the whole logic of this.
Well sure with people like that looking out for us we’re sorted…they only lost a couple of hundred million this time..
Like Fudge it did! As a people, we must be the most naive, dopey, shower of gob she ites on the planet. How come none if the fudgers that have sold this country down the swaney have ever done jail time?
Fr Ted politics
Ant qualified accountant know its not black and white as TDs made out.
@Paul: Can we take it you’re a qualified accountant so, paul?
Yes but not doing it as a job now nor I have attempted to look at the report.
@For Connolly: So you haven’t read the report. Okie dokie.
You are aware that the C&AG is stuffed to the gills with ‘qualified accountants’, yes?
FC
You can produce a set of figures in many ways…..an accountant would know that.
Problem is your dealing with elementary school teachers one one side and Nobel laureate economist like Stieglitz on the other.
@Paul: I see. So instead of the one liner statements, can you expand please, as a qualified accountant, on your original comment?
Ta.
Sounds like the C&AG is well able for them.
@For Connolly:
I’ll do that for Paul.
Sinn fein ira withdrew a very large sum of money from the Ulster Bank without the owners consent.
I think that about covers it.
@For Connolly:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/10-facts-about-the-iras-265m-raid-on-northern-bank-30848746.html
Jane ,just listening to Mick Wallace on VB having the neck to talk about white collar crime ,does he really think that the Irish people are all total gombeens or what .He admitted to knowingly defrauding the state and tax payer of 2m in vat that he used to service his own ego .
PATHETIC .
We need a DAIL committee to investigate how much C&AG paid outside consultants!
Sure they did, just like Fine Gael looked after the poor,sick and middle income earners.
Hitler and SS once stated they too worked in the best interest of the child and look what was done to children then and since.
Bottom line is you can’t judge the value of assets sold in 2011/2012 by 2016 prices.
At that time they were lucky to get any buyers at all. Many people still thought property was over-valued.
As long as there was no corrupt behavior that would stand up in court, let’s move on.
No Fred, I don’t think we should ‘move on’. This stinks of collusion and corruption at the highest level and has little to do with 2016 valuation of assets sold in 2011/2012. It’s more to do with how it was sold, to whom it was sold, why that recepient was chosen and how their price was calculated. Until we have clear answers to those questions, whether it stands up in court or not, we most certainly should not ‘move on’. A more suspicious person would read between the lines of your comment ‘nothing to see here people, move on now, move on’!
Sure of course this the land of saints an scholars etc
have your say