Advertisement

We need your help now

Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.

You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.

If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.

FactCheck: Is it really "illegal" for the government to negotiate with the UK before Brexit?

Government Chief Whip Regina Doherty made an extraordinary claim on Tonight With Vincent Browne this week. Was she right?

banner

ATTENTION IS TURNING to the exact process by which the UK will leave the EU, and on these shores, to how the terms and conditions of Brexit will affect Ireland, and how well we’re prepared for the potential fall-out.

On Tuesday’s Tonight With Vincent Browne on TV3, Government Chief Whip Regina Doherty faced criticism of the cabinet’s contingency planning for Brexit, but firmly denied she or her colleagues could do any more.

In fact, she claimed it would be “illegal to start discussions or negotiations” before the UK invoked Article 50 of the EU Treaty, thereby formally starting the process of leaving the EU.

Is this true?

Claim: It’s illegal for the Irish government to start discussions or negotiations about Brexit with the UK government, until Article 50 is triggered
Verdict: FALSE

  • The UK must trigger Article 50 before formal negotiations between the UK and EU can begin
  • There is no legal barrier to individual EU member states (like Ireland and the UK) having negotiations before that
  • EU heads of government have informally agreed there will be no negotiations before the UK triggers Article 50, but this agreement does not have the force of law.

What was said:

TheJournal.ie / YouTube

You can watch a video including Minister of State Doherty’s claim, and a breakdown of the facts, above. And you can watch the episode in full here.

Our focus is this exchange with Sinn Féin TD Peadar Tóibín, who had been criticising what he regards as the government’s inaction and lack of preparation for Brexit.

Tóibín: Britain are, as Regina says, exerting their demands, and Enda is sitting on his hands. Because what we really should be doing – this government should be working out the best-case scenario for Ireland in this whole mess…

Doherty: And what is that, Peadar?

Tóibín: Well first of all, the best case scenario is that we have free movement in Ireland and within Britain, and that we have people that are able to trade with people in Britain…

Doherty: And how would we do that, at the moment, when it’s actually illegal to start discussions or negotiations before the article is even triggered? [Emphasis added].

When Vincent Browne refuted this, Doherty insisted, adding “It’s against the treaty”.

The Facts

Brexit Daniel Leal-Olivas / PA Images Daniel Leal-Olivas / PA Images / PA Images

In response to our request for evidence, a spokesperson for Regina Doherty cited an agreement made at an informal meeting of 27 of the EU’s heads of government, on 29 June.

Section 2 of that agreement states:

There is a need to organise the withdrawal of the UK from the EU in an orderly fashion. Article 50 TEU provides the legal basis for this process.
It is up to the British government to notify the European Council of the UK’s intention to withdraw from the Union. This should be done as quickly as possible.
There can be no negotiations of any kind before this notification has taken place. [Emphasis added].

Doherty’s spokesperson added:

The agreed and united EU position is that there can be no negotiations until Article 50 has been triggered, and Ireland adheres fully to that position.
That does not mean of course that we cannot have exploratory discussions on ongoing bilateral issues, including those which will need to be sorted out.

In response to our request, Doherty did not cite any law, regulation or rule which would make it illegal for the Irish government, its members, or its representatives, to “start discussions or negotiations” with the UK government, its members, or its representatives, before Article 50 is invoked, other than Article 50 itself.

article50full EU EU

Article 50 of the EU Treaty (page 31) sets out the process by which a member state can leave.

The UK, for example, sends a notification to the European Council that it is invoking Article 50, and a formal process of negotiating the terms of the UK’s exit begins, between the UK and the EU/European Council.

But Article 50 says nothing about negotiations or discussions between individual member states, on issues relating to Brexit.

The negotiations mentioned in Article 50 are those formal negotiations between the UK and EU, and not talks between Ireland and the UK (or the UK and any other member state).

Therefore, the requirement to wait until Article 50 is triggered, only applies to those formal talks between the UK and EU.

Gavin Barrett, Professor of European Constitutional and Economic Law at UCD, told FactCheck:

There would be nothing illegal at all in the Irish government talking about anything it wanted with the United Kingdom government.
…Insofar as Ireland talks to the UK, in the interim period, it is clear that it will not be negotiating on behalf of the 27 non-UK members of the EU.

Irish Taoiseach visit to the UK PA Archive / PA Images PA Archive / PA Images / PA Images

The point here is that, by definition, Ireland could not negotiate as the EU or on behalf of the EU, with the UK, so the process outlined in Article 50 does not apply.

Any discussions between Ireland and the UK would, inherently, be bilateral discussions even if they touched on issues relating to Brexit, and so would fall outside the limitations of Article 50.

In response to a request for clarification, Regina Doherty’s spokesperson said “any negotiations before Article 50 is triggered fall outside the legal basis set out in Article 50″.

But this is precisely why bilateral negotiations between Ireland and the UK would not be limited by the terms of Article 50. As Professor Gavin Barrett told FactCheck:

The mere fact that negotiations before notification on the part of the UK would fall outside the process set out in Article 50 does not make them illegal.

Finally, the position agreed by EU heads of government at the informal meeting on 29 June is just that – an informal agreement of principles, without the force of law, or sanctions.

Regina Doherty’s claim was that it is “illegal” for the Irish government to enter Brexit-related negotiations or discussions with the UK, before Article 50 is triggered.

We rate her claim FALSE.

TheJournal.ie’s FactCheck is a signatory to the International Fact-Checking Network’s Code of Principles. You can read it here.

For information on how FactCheck works, what the verdicts mean, and how you can take part, check out our Reader’s Guide here

Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
It is vital that we surface facts from noise. Articles like this one brings you clarity, transparency and balance so you can make well-informed decisions. We set up FactCheck in 2016 to proactively expose false or misleading information, but to continue to deliver on this mission we need your support. Over 5,000 readers like you support us. If you can, please consider setting up a monthly payment or making a once-off donation to keep news free to everyone.

Close
91 Comments
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Aileen Ryan
    Favourite Aileen Ryan
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 11:05 PM

    Sex offenders should not be out on bail to begin with !!!!

    246
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Stephen Fitzpatrick
    Favourite Stephen Fitzpatrick
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:35 AM

    When the question of bail arises, they have not yet been found guilty of being a sex offender.

    79
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Martin Bishop
    Favourite Martin Bishop
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:13 PM

    But everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law,

    If you are going to assume all people accused of a sex offense are 100% guilty and should not be out on bail then the exact same must be applied to all other crimes.

    27
    See 3 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute The Throwaway
    Favourite The Throwaway
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:37 PM

    What needs to happen is a greater robustness to bail applications. As it stands, it is extremely difficult to have an accused persons bail rejected. Worse still is there is very very, very limited means with which the Gardai can object. If there was a robust, hearing-like procedure that the Gardai could argue freely that an accused should not be out on bail, then society as whole would benefit.

    14
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Aileen Ryan
    Favourite Aileen Ryan
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 1:03 PM

    If some body is charged with sexual offences there is obviously some evidence against them I for one would certainly sleep better at night knowing some body that has been charged with a sexual offence is behind bars and not walking the streets on bail to reoffend.

    8
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute The Throwaway
    Favourite The Throwaway
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 1:22 PM

    For the most part the fact that you are before a court on a serious offence like a sexual offence means that the Gardai believe there is ample evidence to mount a prosecution, and in turn that the DPP have reviewed that same evidence and similarly believe that there is sufficient evidence to sustain an allegation of a sexual offence.

    The problem lies in the nature of bail applications; Gardai are practically hamstrung from saying anything incriminating. There are sever restrictions on what you can say to a judge in respect of objecting to bail of an accused. Even if you have previous convictions, only specific and certain previous convictions can be told to a court in respect to bail.
    Whether it is intended or not, a decision has been made in the legal system that the presumption of innocence (in respect to bail) is absolute, even where there might well be a crystal clear danger to society.
    I personally believe that a separate judge, and separate case is heard for bail. Gardai should be allowed to state to a court without prejudice to a case that a person is a risk to society and deserves to have their bail denied. Some will argue that is a step too far though.

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Paul Roche
    Favourite Paul Roche
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 8:37 PM

    “He said that video links could be used to reduce the amount of time gardaí spend waiting in court.”

    I’d have thought it was obvious, but video links would reduce the amount of time everybody spends in court.
    As far as the law is concerned, if the Gardaí are not prosecuting, they are witnesses like any other in any case.

    102
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute AlanHarte
    Favourite AlanHarte
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 10:42 PM

    Re the witnesses point, what relevance is that? Video link isn’t used for witnesses except in rare occasions where they can’t attend as, for example, they’re overseas. It’s not used as a matter of routine.

    53
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Alien8
    Favourite Alien8
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 8:57 AM

    Can we also use video links to avoid wasting the day in court on things like traffic violations? Had to go to court once to discuss why I got a summons for someone else’s car, spent the whole day there and the guard didn’t turn up – every one of his cases struck out. Joke system.

    72
    See 1 more reply ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute The Throwaway
    Favourite The Throwaway
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:39 PM

    Also to bear in mind: video link is only acceptable if the accused and the defence want it. If they don’t want a video link then everyone else has to turn up. Similarly, if the judge is amenable to video link there is more likelihood of it going ahead.
    The Garda in court only gets told where to go, they don’t get a say in whether video should be used or not.

    6
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Glen
    Favourite Glen
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 8:42 PM

    They will probably bring in microchipping for sex offenders which would be met with very little resistance.

    90
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Glen
    Favourite Glen
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:22 AM

    This was a half baited comment.
    Had I approached microchipping from a conspiracy view I would of been called a nut job. ” the chip” doesn’t exist, tin foil hat and all that
    Yes they will use sex offenders as a way of rolling them out further but the problem is there isn’t enough IPv4 address to accommodate everyone. When IPv6 completely takes over which will be at least another 10 years then you will see a chipped population to keep us safe from those terrorists.

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Sean Smith
    Favourite Sean Smith
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:48 AM

    Glen they already track everything we do. Our phones tell them where we are, who we are calling. The internet tells them what we are buying, who we are talking to, what we are interested in, where we are etc.

    19
    See 2 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute little jim
    Favourite little jim
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:49 AM

    Nut job.

    31
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Glen
    Favourite Glen
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:51 AM

    I’m aware of that Sean.

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Eugene Walsh
    Favourite Eugene Walsh
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 8:32 PM

    I’m tired of hearing about gardai.
    If they’d routinely and regularly enforce the laws we already have, well that would be just great.
    Ask em to sign for a passport and you’re met with a snarl! !

    66
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Al Beebak
    Favourite Al Beebak
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 8:58 PM

    If Gardai were to strictly enforce every single law available to them we would become a very unhappy nation very quickly.

    302
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Eugene Walsh
    Favourite Eugene Walsh
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 9:42 PM

    Discretion is to be applied certainly but for decades they let people off scot free for speeding and other road offences.
    That’s wholly unacceptable and too bad for the poor folk who are not “connected” to the system.

    34
    See 1 more reply ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute youknowimright
    Favourite youknowimright
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:33 AM

    Did you know the person who snarled at you?? I’m sure it says on the passport application that you are supposed to. Did they sign it anyway once they were satisfied who you were?

    64
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Colm Flaherty
    Favourite Colm Flaherty
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 8:54 AM

    PULSE is what happens when you throw money at civil servants to become programmers.

    Plenty of good solutions in, (and Irish heads working for) the tech industry, both here & in California. Cheaper too!

    63
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute RealCorkLanger
    Favourite RealCorkLanger
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:38 AM

    It was actually made by Accenture I think, not by civil servants

    67
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Mary Lyons
    Favourite Mary Lyons
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:38 AM

    They can stick all the Pulse computers in storage with the voting machines. They will get a good rate!

    13
    See 6 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute SteoG
    Favourite SteoG
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:38 AM

    PULSE is a secondhand system purchased from a US police force.

    24
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Col de Gal
    Favourite Col de Gal
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 10:19 AM

    PULSE is the work of Anderson Consulting, nowadays known as Accenture. They are not public servants, not cheap, and have offices in California too if that’s the sort of thing that impresses you.

    46
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Charles Mcdonald
    Favourite Charles Mcdonald
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 11:11 AM

    No other force had pulse. From what I believe police in NZ use a very simular type system. It’s not really outdated…… could probably use facelift to modernise a part of it. Don’t hear guards complaining about it being outdated. Oh facelift here slow speeds there I can see it being administered badly as it’s civil service run.

    9
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute John R
    Favourite John R
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:03 PM

    Charles Pulse is not run by civil servants. The running is largely outsourced to the private sector. All garda ICT needs to be examined in the round in order to determine what the best solution. PULSE may be their biggest system but it is only one of their ICT systems. It’s also a large and complex system so replacement will not be a cheap option.

    12
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Charles Mcdonald
    Favourite Charles Mcdonald
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:11 PM

    Well then why replace. Why not earmark improvements and release and updated system. Cheap and ticks the boxes

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute The Throwaway
    Favourite The Throwaway
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:46 PM

    PULSE is outdated and outmoded. At least that’s one of the newer technologies in use. The dispatch system in use for Dublin is from the early 1970′s. Those who know DOS would be well able to use it.

    Gardai have long asked for better IT infrastructure, it’s one of the main causes of the widespread use of mobile phones by Gardai: the phones do more than the equipment given. Only in the last 5 years has an actual purpose built radio communication system been put in place (and even still, TETRA is an 1989 technology, prevalent in police use by 1995-2000, and only relatively new in Ireland).

    8
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Snorre N Skalagrimmerson
    Favourite Snorre N Skalagrimmerson
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 9:40 PM

    Anomolies in the penalty points system…..bent cops fire them that simple!

    47
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kerry Blake
    Favourite Kerry Blake
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 8:32 PM

    Scrap “Pulse” some one remind me just what that system cost? Can we recover the cost from those who recommend the system?

    44
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jane Travers
    Favourite Jane Travers
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 10:08 PM

    In fairness it’s what, 20 years old? No-one expects tech to stay current for that long.

    140
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kerry Blake
    Favourite Kerry Blake
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 10:51 PM

    Jane it was never current part of it’s problem.

    56
    See 5 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jane Travers
    Favourite Jane Travers
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 10:59 PM

    I’ll give you that, Kerry.

    31
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kerry Blake
    Favourite Kerry Blake
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 11:32 PM

    And we the “tax payers” paid for a system that was not current or could be upgraded. Who approved that purchase I wonder?

    42
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Charles Mcdonald
    Favourite Charles Mcdonald
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 11:16 AM

    Jenny I was using windows xp till last year. I upgraded because software was no longer supported for dx11 applications I run.

    Now olif I could run what I want in the quality I want I’d still be using xp. Just because something is old does not mean it’s bad. I’m sure many would take xp over windows 8.

    That’s the same with pulse system. If it ain’t broke don’t fix. If there is something then address that in a new update.

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Charles Mcdonald
    Favourite Charles Mcdonald
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 11:22 AM

    Now if *****

    Sorry stubby fingers small touchscreen :)

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute John R
    Favourite John R
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:09 PM

    Kerry get a grip. You don’t replace large complex corporate systems because the are “not current” (whatever the hell that means in ICT terms). You replace them because they no longer meet your evolving business needs. As I read it that is what is being said in the article. Large business systems are not equivalent to home users. If they work you use the system and you upgrade it as needed. That is what they did with Pulse and rightly so. The cost of replacing very large business systems to keep them “current” would be phenomenal and incredibly complex. Nobody in the public or private sector replaces ICT systems and enters into such a massive project lightly. It is very expensive and very resource intensive and the projects frequently go wrong!. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Pulse is not broken but it may not longer be suitable for the business needs of the Garda Síochána. If so a new system will have to be considered.

    8
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Snorre N Skalagrimmerson
    Favourite Snorre N Skalagrimmerson
    Report
    Jan 14th 2015, 9:42 PM

    Subpeona Gemma O’Dogherty…..and ask why she was sacked……then open can of worms.

    44
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Charles Mcdonald
    Favourite Charles Mcdonald
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:12 PM

    Ya wha?

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Ger
    Favourite Ger
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 6:19 AM

    Sex offenders are monitored by the Garda whilst on bail. When they are convicted of a sex offence they are required to sign on at their local station, providing they are not immediately jailed for the offence. Sometimes the judge will defer sentencing until he/she has probation or victim impact reports to hand. But the offender is required to be subjected to the sex offenders act while waiting on bail to be sentenced.
    People who are going through the courts procedure and are on bail but have not yet convicted are not required to be monitored as per the sex offenders act because “innocent until proven guilty”. So im not sure what changes they are requesting…..

    32
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jonathan Bambury
    Favourite Jonathan Bambury
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:17 AM

    If you belive that system works you my friend have blinkers and ear muffs on

    25
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Ger
    Favourite Ger
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 3:53 PM

    I never said what I believe regarding whether or not it works…..I just said that monitoring does happen while on bail, the article said it doesn’t.

    4
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute #Wynner
    Favourite #Wynner
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 8:15 AM

    Compulsory ankle tags ? Or do we even have them ?

    23
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Mike Brennan
    Favourite Mike Brennan
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 10:47 AM

    Software and technology dates. So what? Look at the evolvement of Microsoft Windows and Office since the nineties for example. There’s only so much future proofing one can do and there’s always something better down the tracks. I’m sure Pulse must have been a huge leap for the Gardai, at least compared to what technology they had at the time.

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute WibblyWobblyWonder
    Favourite WibblyWobblyWonder
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 9:15 AM

    They should download the New Garda App. It’s free on Google Play!

    13
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Power
    Favourite Conor Power
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 11:26 AM

    Pulse is just a database at the end of the day. Ideally a new database can be devised and the data lifted and shifted, happens all the time in industry. The cost of hardware is also much reduced now and thin client tech with encrypted connections are in common use. IF properly planned by competent contractors it could be done in a short space of time. Can’t see it happening though.

    9
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute John R
    Favourite John R
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:22 PM

    Conor, it can’t be done in a short space of time. Pulse is not just a database. There are databases and there are databases! Pulse is one of the largest and most complex databases in the state. If you wish to replace Pulse then you will have to determine what are your current and emerging business needs and what system design,architecture and software may be suitable to deliver those needs. Then you have to design and run a public tender competition under EU law (minimum realistically of one year from start to award from the time the completed tender is placed in the public domain). Pulse is also linked to other Garda ICT systems and all these will have to be factored into the new design. The design of the database will also be dependent on the business users (the Garda Síochána) determining what are their current and emerging business needs. This can be assisted by competent ICT professionals but it cannot be done by contractors unless you want to be “captured” by those contractors who will design something that they can deliver. Hardware is not the issue. The design and software is the issue. This takes time. I know of nobody in the ICT domain who embarks on a major nation wide ICT project of this nature acting on the presumption that it is easy and can be done in a short space of time. It is complex and it will take time. That time scale from design to award to implementation would probably be at least three years if you want to do this correctly and recognising the complexity of Pulse, a database that has been constantly amended with numerous other add ons over a long period of time.

    6
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute The Throwaway
    Favourite The Throwaway
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:50 PM

    I agree with everything you said there, but I’d add that hardware is an issue. One of the reasons why the PULSE system is so secure is that it is so rudimentary primitive in its hardware. I’d say a modern tech company would be very hard pushed to have the expertise of yeateryear around to deal with it. Never mind upgrading it!

    Still no reason not to upgrade it though!

    2
    See 2 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Power
    Favourite Conor Power
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 1:32 PM

    There are data models and information exchange models available from national and international law enforcement agencies. Sure there will be an element of localisation and interaction design specific to AGS but they they have plenty of existing models to work with.

    Revising the system would be a good opportunity to have seamless Interoperability with Interpol:

    http://www.interpol.int/INTERPOL-expertise/Databases

    You would not be upgrading Pulse at this stage – you would devise a completely new system and migrate the data.

    2
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ
    Favourite Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ
    Report
    Jan 17th 2015, 8:44 AM

    They can always virtualise the hardware, the bulk of the Pulse system from what I recall is based around Windows NT4. Do a p2v (physical to virtual) conversion of backend infrastructure and if needs be virtualise the terminals.

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kal Ipers
    Favourite Kal Ipers
    Report
    Jan 15th 2015, 12:18 PM

    IT systems do what they designed to do. Consulting firms will do what they are asked to. The ultimate goal of such consultancies is to make money not solve your problems.
    They start off with a tender with a cheap price knowing you haven’t scoped the product correctly. Then the charge a lot for all the extra work they knew you would need.
    The people who make the decisions on which tender to accept generally have no knowledge of IT and don’t understand their own experts recommendations. They tend to take the cheapest from a well known firm. Then costs spiral as modification has to happen.
    It isn’t just civil service this happens in RBS did the same which caused their system to crash. I have seen this happen in lots of companies and one consultancy is notorious for this and I have watched them do it. What is worse is it is predictable.
    Pulse could have been future proofed but was old from the start

    6
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Michael Sands
    Favourite Michael Sands
    Report
    Jan 16th 2015, 6:13 PM

    It has no pulse then???

    1
Submit a report
Please help us understand how this comment violates our community guidelines.
Thank you for the feedback
Your feedback has been sent to our team for review.
JournalTv
News in 60 seconds