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Updated, 6.50pm
RUTH COPPINGER HAS said that it’s because of “sell-out Independents” that the AAA-PBP bill requesting a referendum to repeal the Eighth Amendment will be rejected.
Earlier today, the Government took a unified position on the bill, agreeing collectively to not accept the bill until the Citizens’ Assembly has finished its work.
The Government has also agreed to put forward a reasoned amendment to the bill.
Speaking on the Dáil plinth today, Coppinger gave this strong statement about Independent TDs in Government, flanked by her AAA-PBP colleagues:
This is a sell-out and betrayal by the Independent Ministers like Katherine Zappone, John Halligan and Shane Ross.
“Ministers, who said they are in favour of repeal, will line up and vote as part of the government against repealing the Eighth Amendment. They are putting their ministerial seats before the health and lives of women.
This vote will guarantee that no referendum will take place during the lifetime of this government.
“By the time the Citizens’ Assembly reports back, the Oireachtas Committee sits and then a bill is passed through both houses, the earliest opportunity for a referendum will be late 2018 or early 2019, by that stage this government may not be in power. They have sent a clear message to women telling them they can continue to wait.”
Bríd Smith also weighed in, saying:
“I am absolutely furious with the ‘so-called’ Independents who are co-operating with Fine Gael to practically ensure that the Eighth Amendment is not dealt with in the lifetime of this Government.
To fob us off with the reliance on the adjudication of a Citizens’ Assembly of 99 people is not good enough. It is undemocratic.
“It prevents thousands of young people who never had a chance to vote on abortion or women’s bodily autonomy from having their say on the Eighth.”
The bill is due to be debated in the Dáil tonight.
Citizens’ Assembly
The Programme for Government, agreed by the coalition in the wake of lengthy talks, said the Eighth Amendment issue would be dealt with by convening a Citizens’ Assembly.
In a statement today, a spokesperson said that there were different views in Government around the issue of the Eighth Amendment, but Cabinet had agreed that the Citizens’ Assembly should be allowed to finish its work.
The Assembly is expected to give its report on the issue in the first half of next year. The report will then be referred to a special Oireachtas Committee which will be asked to respond to its findings within in six months.
Government TDs will be given a free vote on the matter once the Citizens’ Assembly has reported back.
Speaking this afternoon on RTÉ’s News at One, Children’s Minister Katherine Zappone – who is in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment – said that she and her Cabinet colleagues had come to “mature” decision.
“I think we’ve come to very mature decision in terms of how to agree,” she said.
The minister said that the Government was not “technically opposing the bill” but inserting an amendment so that the Citizens’ Assembly could finish its work.
“I am anxious that we ensure that the process goes as quickly as possible,” she said.
The Eighth Amendment
The Eighth Amendment to the Constitution grants the equal right to life of to the mother and the unborn child, effectively making abortion illegal except in very rare circumstances.
The AAA-PBP bill had been contentious, with members of the Independent Alliance in Government initially wanting a free vote on the matter.
The Government was keen to avoid a similar situation as had occurred with Independents 4 Change TD Mick Wallace’s bill earlier in the Dáil term.
Wallace had put forward a bill which would have allowed for abortions in situations where a child would not live outside the womb.
The bill failed to pass, but it was backed by Minister for Transport Shane Ross and junior ministers John Halligan and Finian McGrath, who voted against government advice.
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Why did the bill go forward if they knew the citizens assembly had to take place?
because they want to delegitimise the assembly or at least make it known that they don’t see it as legitimate.
i think it is a can to kick down the road because the state isn’t ready to repeal yet.
Lad
Reasonable and Sensible decisions from AAA…..
@Lad: Citizens Assembly – me ar$e – its a ruse to kick the can down the road. There is already too many citizens assemblies – we have at least one in every county and two in leinster house. More bureaucracy in the guise of democracy.
Well although the citizens assembly dies the devalue the purpose of government, it definitely has its benefits when used correctly. Not everything is black and white..
@Lad: “it definitely has its benefits when used correctly”
Aside the ‘benefit’ for enda kenny of not having to deal with the issue?
@Lad:
Short answer is that because this is about point scoring, not Repeal.
Wally even said as much the other day, saying the AAA bringing this doomed bill forward “will also have the added bonus of flushing out bogus Independents like Zappone” (direct quote).
http://www.thejournal.ie/ruth-coppinger-sunday-interview-3038406-Oct2016/
So it’s not about the 8th, not about building a consensus so we can finally repeal this – it’s about party politics and divisive stands to make political points.
@Brendan – what is the SF policy on this are ye backing the amendment or no>?
The Citizens Assembly does not have legislative power, it can only make recommendations. This is a stalling tactic. The Oireachtas will then take at least another six months to put forward a bill, which would then have to go to a referendum. We’re looking at least two years away now, probably at a new Govt, so it won’t be on their watch. When the Govt changes, another excuse will be put forward to delay yet again. It’s disgraceful.
@king Tut: They’re doing the same thing at local level… addding more layers of bureaucracy and making people think that they actually have a say when ultimately the politicians will vote a certain way anyway – as per their electoral mandate. We’ve got to a point in this country where no one is willing to take a decision and stick to it.
@For Connolly The same sex marriage referendum was a direct result of the assembly.. @Brinster Well said, I agree
The Dail arguably doesn’t have legislative powers in this case as the constitution is blocking them. That’s why Enda won’t give protection from water privatisation either. This debate tonight is waste of time as it couldn’t deliver a result.
unless, of course, the politicians decide to pass the bill, and allow a referendum anyway. the assembly could then get on with important issues such as presidential age, removing outdated nonsense that doesn’t do anything (a woman’s place is in the home… yep, that’s still there). There is nothing preventing the tds from pressing ahead with this tonight, and in the case of fianna fail, zappone, Hallagan and Ross, it should be a resigning issue from supporting the govt, as it was in their pledges to get elected.
@stopit: The assembly has no legitimacy.
Women’s human rights are not dependent on a minority vote
@Old Gabby Johnson were you talking to me?
@Brendan McGill: No why?
@Old Gabby Johnson: Your second comment in this thread begins with “@Brendan”
Yep I saw that and noticed there were no Brendan’s commenting before me, so I thought I was special or something haha
Brendan the first name of For Connolly..
@king Tut: If it is two years away then they will no doubt use the visit of the Pope to their advantage
to kick the can even further down the road.
“In the event of the trip going ahead, serious consideration will also be given to the possibility of Pope Francis addressing a joint sitting of the Houses of the Oireachtas in Leinster House.
However, officials stressed the importance of not deflecting attention away from the central purpose of the visit, the World Meeting of Families.
Yeah right !!!!!
Zappone and the rest of the “Independents” propping up the government are contemptible liberal hypocrites. How would Ms. Zappone view a TD who voted down a referendum on marriage equality? Or one who stands shoulder to shoulder with the Apple tax dodgers? We don’t need anymore bogus Independents always ready to support the capitalist establishment for their 30 pieces of silver. We need a party to represent the interests of the majority working class.
So between the Citizens assembly and the Oireachtas it will take a year before any vote… a fair kick down the road alright. Politicians dither women weep. Sometimes I really want to leave this country
@Jarrett moon: “Brendan the first name of For Connolly.”
Really? Got a Surname to go with that, I could use a chuckle.
@Lucy Legacy: I think Ireland has proven its contempt for women time and time again..
Like their decision last week, not to sign the Dail motion condemning Russia’s war crimes in Syria ……….
@Lad: F**k this shower of a ‘government’. They wouldn’t even pass the extremely limited fatal foetal abnormalities bill.
They really need a Citizens Assembly to tell them what to do? One that consists of people who aren’t allowed to have had any prior opinions on the issue.
@O Yassoon:
Fatal Foetal Abnormalities do not exist. The correct term is babies with severe disabilities. Be careful what you ask for, you might not make the cut.
@For Connolly:
Old Gobby clanger Johnson has eyes for you?
Billy – what are you going to spend the extra €5k on or are you putting it with the €5 Household charge legal fund that you lot took from unsuspecting people
lad the bill went forward because the 2%ers want to cause trouble.
zappone has the right to her opinion billy. This is politics. unless you are a fanatic you compromise.
I don’t see why there has to be a citizens assembly. There wasn’t one before the referendum for equality for same sex marriage.
This government are getting to be experts at kicking the can down the road.
the government and the church are making sure the women of this country have no say in what they do with their own bodies shocking decision by ff fg.no backbone that’s what it boils down too.
Are they planning on making unorotected sex compulsory or something?
@Neal not Neil: C’mon Neal not Neil, you know even protected sex is not 100% defence against unwanted pregnancies. You’ve been told many, many times..
Although, it was only until fairly recently that unprotected sex was compulsory.
@Neal they’re also going to ban men raping women/girls and fatal foetal abnormality! It’s amazing really.
Is there nothing kenny won’t do to cling to power he’s not Putin for gods sake but the shinny arse seagulls will do what their told
@Paul Mc:
Bart Ahern schooled them well.
With the help of Finnart Fail
With the help of Finnart Fail
@Deborah Behan: Don’t all the rape crisis centers dispense the morning-after pill, as a matter of course?
@Liam Mac Roibin: Problem solved so! Lets just forget about the women who don’t go to the RCC because they feel ashamed or frightened? F them and all other women too! And what about children who are raped? The ones who are too young to even KNOW about the RCC? They just have to put up with it and give birth to a child fathered by their own father or relative (most likely) because in this country even a child who was raped cannot even get an abortion! And we act like our women aren’t second class citizens?? My eye they aren’t!
Ooooh where’s Zappone and her Repeal jumper now? What a hypocritical snake.
As hypocritical as Clare Daly introducing a bill to legislate for the X Case then voting against the exact same thing a year later?
Except it wasn’t the exact same thing, as people would know if they read bills before forming opinions about them.
Zappone sold her principles for 13 pieces of silver. She obviously didn’t learn from Labour gone as power hungry as them as well! We see you and we will remember at the next election.
Except it was as I would know from reading it
Zappone is firmly in it for the gravy.. The travel expenses alone say that.
@Brendan McGill: a Ministerial salary and a magnificent pension are very seductive. Principle defers to self interest.
Of course they did. Can’t have the little womenz of Ireland making decisions based on what’s best for them. Better to leave that to the men folk and priests.
If it was 1956 you may have a point Carol. Welcome to 2016 where women have an equal say and the church is irrelevant.
Doorhandler, you don’t live in the same 2016 as I do. As a woman, if I was to become pregnant tomorrow, I don’t get to decide what is best for me and my family as an Irish citizen in Ireland. If I want an abortion based on what is best for my family I would have to leave the jurisdiction. It is evidently not true women have an equal say in what happens to their body.
@Carol Their are plenty of women in Ireland who don’t want abortion legalized and the church has zero influence on their decision.
@doorhandler: And are the majority of those of childbearing age, whom are directly affected by the bill?
@doorhandler they shouldn’t have abortions then.
@Carol Oates:
Carol – if you became pregnant, all options are open to you. You can avail of abortion in the UK. What you really want is for daddy taxpayer to fund your abortion here at home so you don’t have to go to the hassle of booking a flight and hotel…
@Veronica. The women are of all ages.
@Deborah not should they vote to legalize abortion if they feel that abortion is killing life.
@Fred Johnson: I think women would be happy to pay for the service should it be available to them.
@Rob Cahill: No Rob, listen to their chanting…they want it for “free”…ie paid for by me. No thanks.
Doorhandler, And plenty who do want it legalized. Basically it is the woman’s decision, it’s not up to other women or men or God botherers to decide for her. Or at least it shouldn’t be.
@Fred Johnson: If Carol wanted to,she could avail of an illegal& unsafe first trimester abortion by buying pills off the ‘women on web’ site.But for women who have been diagnosed with a FFA,then they have to fork up something like €3,000 to get to the UK and procure an abortion there..And,I’m extremely happy for my taxes to help any woman avail of a safe,legal abortion,in Ireland..
@Fred Johnson: How much of your taxes would be going towards a woman procuring an abortion in Ireland ? Humour me.
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Let them fork out the money. Get a loan if they have to. Perhaps if they’re so keen to have an abortion they should have not allow these circumstances to occur…
@Carol. Of course men should have a say about their offspring either in the womb or outside. I agree the church shouldn’t nor do they.
@Fred Johnson:
>Perhaps if they’re so keen to have an abortion they should have not allow these circumstances to occur…
All these women should just keep their legs cloed, eh Fred! No problems then!
No doubt you were saying the same thing when it came to legalising contraception “If women would just keep their legs closed and not be spreading them for every man they came across we wouldn’t have any need for these ‘condoms’. What a waste of good Irish seed!”.
People like you who are obsessed with womens’ sex lives are so repugnant.
@Fred Johnson: You’re against providing abortion by the taxpayer, and you’re against giving those who cannot afford childcare, school fees, housing a hand by the taxpayer too. I wonder what’s the cheaper of the two?
Fred, where did I say I want taxpayers to fund abortion? Nowhere ever. I want availability in my own country. If you think it’s about convenience, you are utterly delusional on the reality of living in a country where you loose rights over your own body because you become pregnant.
@doorhandler: Are you saying that every man deserves a say on what a woman will do with her body ? Go away lad .
Francis. I’m saying a man should have his say about his own offspring. I will go away now. But I will also be voting.
@Fred Johnson: Yes Fred, Women are lining up dying to abort fetuses as soon as it becomes available. Stop acting like it’s some sort of thrill for them, This is for most the hardest decision they will ever make have to make in their lives. Stop treating it like a f$%king rollercoaster ride they all can’t wait to go on. We need to trust people to do what is right for their own situations. It has nothing to do with you and will have no affect on your life. And before you go on about the dying fetus, Thousands of children under five years of age dies everyday from starvation and poverty. Maybe a bit of effort to help them and you lot will earn your “pro life” status.
@doorhandler: You can vote whatever way you want to lad,as it’s your vote.Just like,she can do whatever with her body,as it’s her body.
Doorhandler, not to the point they control the woman’s body. How do you propose a woman is prevented from having an abortion if the man doesn’t want her to? Should she be imprisoned, tied up, force fed? Should any woman be put through an entire unwanted pregnancy and birth against her will and reason, with all the physical and psychological scars, the protential danger to her life and health? Is that the say you reackon men should have? Besides all that, what if the offspring is the result of rape? Should he then still get a say? What if the woman is carrying a foetus that won’t live? In consensual relationships where a pregnancy results, of course the man should have a voice, but ultimately the decision to continue a pregnancy must be made by the woman.
Carol. This is the point. When the referendum happens men and women will have a say. Not just women. That is the position I support that both sexes have an equal say. On a side note. If the proposal is for limited abortion in hard cases then it will pass. If the proposal is to legalize abortion it will not pass. So if you want to move your agenda forward try not to alienate voters just because they are male.
Fred, Ur dead right they should have the cop on not to get raped. Clown
@doorhandler well then let’s have a referendum and everyone have a vote. That’s all we want!
@Carol Oates: Would you extend the same right to a man who didn’t consent to a pregnancy? Would you excuse him from 18 years of shouldering a financial burden for a child conceived against his will? And ffs please don’t bring condoms into it.
Nail on head there Doorhandler. Abortion on demand would not pass IMO. Rewording of some description, so an amendment, likely would.
@Carol Oates:
Looks like you’ll have to have sex with the lights on so.
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Only unborn babies should be allowed to vote in an abortion referendum.
@j scotus eriugena: The scary thing is that’s one of the most sensible things you have said on here. Doesn’t say much for you. HArd to tell which clown you are now too. Getting better at the disguises are we?
@j scotus eriugena:
How would you get these “unborn babies” to vote & at what age should they be allowed to vote ? LOL..
“unborn babies” LOL
Thank you Rob. Thank God all men aren’t like Fred.
With a comment like Perhaps if they’re so keen to have an abortion they should not have allowed these circumstances to occur, Fred you’re just proving how ignorant you are.
j scrotus you’re just on here because you love an argument. Who would take you seriously.
Two fingers to the second class citizens, the vessels. In my view that should be enough for this government to go f*ck themselves.
@Stephen McManus:
My wife and other women are proud to be vessels. It is misogynistic to use vessel as a negative term. As if there is something lowly about carrying a baby. It is like when people say that “women are more than mothers”, as if being a mother is not the best thing on earth.
@j scotus eriugena: somehow I feel that your views would deserve more consideration if you were not an anonymous (assumed) male using the name of a theologian from the middle ages.
Your wife nor you j scrotus speak for all women. If you & your wife want to have a child that’s your business. If someone else doesn’t want to have a child that’s none of your business.
Absolute cowards.
And bloody hypocrites!!
Not surprised, unfortunately.
I wonder what promises were made to the independent ministers who wanted a free vote on the issue.
You mean lie’s?
@Brian Casey: With regards to FG, what’s the difference?
I’ll never waste my vote on an independent again….
Such a shower of b#####ds the lot of them. Money grabbing shower the lot of them. Jesus people speak about Trump being corrupt and not trustworthy but the real experts are the political establishment here in Ireland.
Is this Citizens assembly nonsense even legal? If so, then why do we have elected representatives at all? I’ll be damned if I can find the part about citizens assembly’s in the constitution. I think the people need to be asking more about a Government who are scared to make hard decisions.. it’s tantamount to cowardice!! I don’t vote in general elections for people I haven’t heard of to decide what I can or can’t have a say in.
@rodrigo detriano: Its a catch 22. The assembly is likely legal because it has no power to compel the government to act on its findings. The catch is that its findings can be ignored by FG.
A waste of our time and taxes.
@rodrigo detriano:
Why do you care Rod? You’re a British subject not an Irish citizen.
158 citizens chosen by 65% of the entire electorate in the state
vs
99 citizens selected by a polling company
We have a citizens assembly, it’s called the Dail, and the independent alliance should hang their heads for further delaying a referendum on the 8th. Zappone is toast.
@For Connolly: They are paid more than enough to make and take decisions. No problem making or taking decisions when it effects the well being of cronies or corporations.
So the Citizens Assembly has more of a democratic mandate than the AAA-PBP put together?
sounds about right.
Who do AAA-PBP represent again, on their pitiful performance at the polls? Did they vote for themselves?
Can kicked.
Independents my arse. Cowards.
Every single one of them
Fooled by the Greens, fooled by the Labour, now fooled by the Independents. When are people going to learn?
@Les Behan: Learn what?
@Les who do we vote for then? FF?
@Deborah Behan: @Deborah Behan: Does it really make any difference? just look the last election result. The problem isn’t who to vote for, the problem is voting in a rotten system and thinking that next time it’ll be better. We spent 15 years trying to rid ourselves of Fine Fail, to replace them in Fianna Gael and then people act surprised when they look after their rich elitist buddies at the expense of the people of this country? Is it any wonder Fine Fail are doing so well in polls.
It’s never going to change, because the system is rotten, it favours those in power the most and the majority of the electorate are morons.
@Les totally agree :(
“Snouts in the trough” wins out over women’s rights. How easily were they bought?
What about the child’s rights?
What child? The pregnant child who’ll be forced to give birth, regardless of her physical ability to carry a pregnancy? The 8th amendment doesn’t give a shit about a child’s rights.
Noe you, Daisy, nor you.
What child would that be Dan. That one hypothetically born nine months down the line that you and your ulk then don’t give a monkey’s about?
@Dan Keane: As soon as it’s born, the child’s rights depend on the health of it’s parents bank balance.
Pro-life = Pro-Birth, nothing else, after that the child means nothing to you or your ilk.
@Dave Doyle:” Pro-life = Pro-Birth, nothing else, after that the child means nothing to you or your ilk” Could you elaborate on you comment please?.
@Con O Sullivan: What the comment says. Pro Life=Pro Birth. After birth, you don’t give a damn about the child.
You continue being the usual a**hole.
@Dave Doyle:
You see how the middle class want the poor to be able to have abortions. Disgusting. Purely focused on the economic, no thought of the human.
Delay tactics costing the tax payer
And the women that need to end a pregnancy for their own reasons
@James Carpenter: And saving the lives of children.
@Paddy Lions: name these murdered children you keep referring to.
Another timewasting escapade from the loony left.
‘Repeal the 8th’ is a shameless and cruel campaign rooted in the dehumanisation of the unborn child.
@Emma Murphy: We must be the voice for the defenceless unborn children.
What do you do for the born children who are in poverty, being abused, left on hospital waiting lists for years etc… Or are you just another antichoice hypocrite who uses the “unborn child” or “predead prepensioner” or whatever stupid oxymoronic buzzwords as an excuse to control women’s rights?
@Paddy Lions: You have been coming out with that nonsense on here,a very long time now,and it is very boring.By any chance,have you any new material? Good lad.
@Emma Murphy:
A foetuis is not a human Emma.
Why do you hate women?
@Emma Murphy:
The ‘looney left’ in fact is trying to give you a referendum on the matter so you can say “yes” or “no”.
Your ‘looney right’ backstabbing Fine Gael fronted government is not giving you that ability.
The bill today in fact is looking for a referendum on the matter – NOT looking to change the matter itself (as reported by too many wrong spinning media)
The ‘looney’ left is trying to give you back your democratic right to vote.
It seems some people are happy to support FG and have their yes/no democratic right denied.
A shameful thing to support undemocratic Fine Gael’s antics, 100 years on from 1916 and for what many have struggled to gain for Ireland’s people – you know… the right be be more home democratic!
@Daisy Chainsaw: Killing children because they might be poor or end up on a hospital waiting list is not a just solution.
@Stiofain Murray:
Yes it is. Foetus is Latin for offspring, ie child.
http://lumierecharity.blogspot.ie/2015/08/breaking-news-sixth-video-catches.html
@j scotus eriugena: as someone has said on here before, that placenta is the latin for cake..Would you like a nice slice of cake ?
Planned Parenthood have been cleared of any wrongdoing in a court of law & they also have been cleared in a dozen or so other states in America.Even Indiana cleared them,ffs .LOL
Mike Pence’s state cleared them ..LOL
Principles !!!!! Show me a POLITICIAN with “PRINCIPLES” as for the Citizens Assembly that is a politicians cop out. We elect them to make the decisions not the Citizens Assembly.
Although I am pro-life I think it is wrong to speak about equal rights with regard to baby and mother’s life. Negating the mother’s right to life is not helpful
@Yvonne Reape:
There is no circumstance where repealing the 8th amendment would create a safer environment for the mother.
Translation “We’re not yet finished avoiding the issue.”
Some call it kicking the can, others call it saving lives.
How many more women need to die before you get off your holy pedestal Dan?
@Dan Keane: Some call it kicking the can, others call it risking women’s lives.
@Dan Keane: Kicking a can is infinitely preferable to killing children.
But you’re quite happy to let women die. Fair enough.
Paddy, if you know of children being killed, please report it to the Gardai.
You mean the way Cora informed the gardai of women being pressurised by doctors? Oh wait …
@Paddy Lions: Do you see an embryo as a child ?
Paddy, which is preferable, saving a woman or saving a zygote?
@Dan Keane:
Why do you regard a foetus entuitely dependent on its host womb as being more important than a woman Dan?
Why do you hate women?
@Paddy Lions: You don’t give a flying one about the “child” once it’s born. If it has medical problems, treatment depends on the parents bank balance. If it’s parents are thrown out on the streets by vulture funds, you will be the first to condemn the patents as wasters.
You lot are pro birth, not in any way pro life.
If you were the smallest bit pro life in the real sense, children wouldn’t be going to bed or school hungry.
Oooooh a lecture on morality from Dave.
Dave, I pay my taxes and am happy to do so to pay for the welfare of that child.
Let’s not bring weak arguments into this debate. This is about the right to life.
We don’t take life because of vulture funds.
@Dan Keane: You are loosing and it will happen, so you better get used to it.
@Tom Burke: Vulture funds are responsible for the taking of hundreds of lives. Fathers of children in most cases.
Your pro-birth argument is the weakest of all.
@Take a Shrill Pill: I thought you wanted the right to terminate embryos and a foetus? If that’s the case you’re being a tad dishonest with the zygote bit.
Out of curiosity, what’s the time limit you would set, assuming health to mother or foetus was not an issue?
@Liam Mac Roibin:
Do not be fooled by the lies, There is no way that changing our abortion laws would make mother’s live’s any safer. According to the UN Ireland is the safest place for a Mommy to have a baby.
@j scotus eriugena: It is so safe ..sure…http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/four-new-hospitals-required-due-to-growing-level-of-risk-associated-with-giving-birth-in-ireland-427373.html
@j scotus eriugena: “Mommy ”
I knew you couldn’t possibly be irish.. I was worried about our education system for a minute.
This Citizen’s Assembly is such a waste of time and money.
Ireland’s abortion laws are barbaric and woman-hating.
The only way to address this is via referendum.
The Citizen’s Assembly serves no purpose other than than to let the woman hating government off the hook.
An immediate referendum is needed to delete the 8th Amendment and for the government to legislate for abortion on demand until 18 weeks of pregnancy.
And remember kids – if a foetus can’t survive outside the womb it is not a human,.
@Stiofain Murray: Is it a horse? A fish? A duck-billed platypus?
@Andrew Eager: It’s a foetus.
@Andrew Eager: It’s a human embryo,when the majority of abortions are done in the 1st trimester.
@meatyslaps:
foetus merely being the latin for offspring.
It is amazing to see how far one can twist human logic. It is a baby and I have evidence.
http://lumierecharity.blogspot.ie/2015/08/breaking-news-sixth-video-catches.html
@j scotus eriugena: and they also say that the ‘placenta’ means cake in latin ..Would you like a slice..lol
Baby is when it is born..now take your “evidence” and beam yourself back to the middle ages ,scotty ..
Absolute cowards.
@Seth Cheffetz: selfish and greedy cowards devoid of principle and integrity.
FFS repeal it already. And in the meantime €15.00 flights to the UK. That’s why there’s urgency or hurry.
Michael O’Leary has been advising FG a lot lately.
As a blow-in to this country , Katherine Zappone is already an example if all that stinks in Irish politics. Hopefully whoever voted for her are taking note. Canada please take her back.
Zappone is an absolute disgrace.
@Petr Tarasov:
She has no PRINCIPLES
There is a lot of media making a big mistake.
The Coppinger/Smith bill proposes to create a public referendum – on the topic of the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution.
The Coppinger/Smith bill proposed for today, does NOT wish to change the the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution there and then, today.
They ONLY seek that the public is later given a referendum. The proposed bill submitted, is calling for the public to be later given a vote – that’s all.
@Unitedpeople: Everyone knows the Dail can’t change the constitution without a referendum. So it’s obvious that this bill is calling for a referendum to repeal the 8th, not to repeal it immediately.
@meatyslaps: Sadly newspapers, including the Independent (FG newsletter) are saying “The Coppinger/Smith bill proposes to repeal the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution…”
…which is completely wrong.
@Unitedpeople: Ah, apologies. I hadn’t read the indo article.
@meatyslaps:
Not a problem. You wouldn’t be the first to be (deliberate?) misled by the FG newsletter. :-)
@Unitedpeople: How could I be misled if I didn’t read the article?
@meatyslaps:
You wouldn’t be the first to be mislead HAD you read the article…
People really need to think deeper into this subject. It’s not as simple as being pro choice or anti choice.
Pregnancy is considered by many a blessing, so I’m sure many would find militant pro choice folk deeply offensive.
Also, you can argue until you are blue in the face about what the child is being born into, well that’s life as nobody gets an easy slice or shot at it without hard work- the same applies to raising a child.
Do you want the option to terminate pregnancy simply because “it was a mistake?”. Well if it’s that convenient to just terminate what many would consider a wonder of nature then we are seriously u turning the natural human idea of procreation.
As for abortion on demand, well you have to look at it this way: What’s the cut off point? Should you be allowed to terminate at any stage of pregnancy for any reason? Even more specific, should a woman be allowed to terminate based on the knowledge of the gender of her unborn child?
As you can see from the video below, the UK has questioned this and they are more progressed in relation to the pro choice issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDMEchphyqc
So should it be her right to choose?
You decide.
No you seem to want to decide for her. You’ve obviously never even tried to put yourself into the shoes of a woman experiencing an unplanned pregnancy/pregnancy due to rape/ fatal foetal abnormality. So before you tell other people to think why don’t you. By the way how can giving someone a choice be called militant? surely forcing someone to submit to your choice is militant?
@Deborah Behan I’m all for a choice in circumstances that involve genuine harm to the mother and or child. Do you understand that? What I am trying to point out is that when abortion on demand comes in there may come a time when the valid legitimate and fair reasons for termination choices are questioned. An example is gender choice; allowing for such an option is an example of broadening the abortion on demand parameters. And trust me that may very well happen, it’s time to stop and think about potential outcomes before we jump outside with colour jumpers with a large bold REPEAL slogan printed on it. And I will end that with once again stressing that I am not telling you what you can or not do with your own body; that’s up to you! I actually don’t care. But societies decisions affect each and every single one of us and legislation is one way it can. Now if you don’t mind I have more important things to do than waste my time arguing with people on here for the sake of gaining a few childish, frivolously clicked red thumbs!
The government needs to get the finger out and have a referendum on this issue although we need to make sure we protect both the mother and the unborn child, both lives are equally important in my mind ,medical professionals should be allowed make important decisions with the parents incases of ffa and suicidal ideation etc but I definitely would not vote for any law that would allow abortion in all cases.
There’s no such thing as an “unborn child”. Would you consider yourself an “undead adult”?
@ daisy, thats a matter of opinion as I clearly stated in my previous comment,from the moment of conception,I consider the pregnancy to be that of a child not yet born,you can play with words all you want daisy ,thats how I see it,im not saying you must agree with me,you believe or feel what you want on the matter as I will.
@Sean Beinead: If we seriously considered it a “child” from conception,we would be diverting all of the money that we use in cancer research & to use it in research to prevent all of those “children” that are lost during the first trimester..It is not a “child” until it is at least 3 years of age.
@ francis, Oh im so sorry francis, did i offend you,how bold of me to have a different opinion than you,please forgive me,get a grip of yourself woman,you dont believe its a child and I differ,move on already, theres a bigger issue at hand or hadnt you noticed,next of all you’ll be checking my grammar.
@Sean Beinead: I would never do that as mine is shocking ;)
@Sean Beinead: And you didn’t offend me because as a man I cannot get pregnant.But for women who don’t want to take a risk of continuing a pregnancy,they probably did.
@Sean Beinead: Jumping the gun a little with that response, Sean… defensive much?
@ francis Apologies for assuming you to be a woman,people nowadays are offended if you fart near them nevermind having a different opinion to theirs but thats an issue for them not me,I dont mind people having a different opinion to mine I believe in live and let live.
@meatyslaps:
@meatyslaps:
Twas a silly assumption alright although easy to make as it is really a womans name.
That would be Frances then!
Actually Sean, Francis with an i is the male, Frances with an e is the female.
@Jeanette McDonald: & Deborah behan,
i am not familiar with the name ladies but thank you for the corrections.
Another miscrocosm of a ‘Constant Government’ that we have here in this country, who havet no interest in Governing!!!
A gov was formed to run the country,not to run from every decision and cover their arse with committees.this group of independents are sellouts,zappone,omg,she for not do it with the SSM referendum.then again ,this issue does not effect her.
It makes sense as even if it was passed they wouldn’t hold it until after the CA is finished anyway.
I cannot wait to hear Ruth today!!
Is her teaching pension still accruing like the rest of them I wonder?
@lavbeer: You mean like Enda’s?
The citizens elected an assembly of representatives who are now washing their hands of any tough decisions….Citizens Assembly….Low Pay Commission etc etc …..ABSOLUTE JOKERS.
People really need to think deeper into this subject. It’s not as simple as being pro choice or anti choice.
Pregnancy is considered by many a blessing, so I’m sure many would find militant pro choice folk deeply offensive.
Also, you can argue until you are blue in the face about what the child is being born into, well that’s life as nobody gets an easy slice or shot at it without hard work- the same applies to raising a child. We won’t waste more time arguing into whether there was failed contraception or not, that argument is being exhausted and I think more complex situations that may arise that question the limit of the choice need to be examined before people can jump on any side.
Do you want the option to terminate pregnancy simply because “it was a mistake?”. Should a woman have to carry a child to full term as a result of rape. All very complex and anybody who simply jumps one one side of the fence is ignorant and misguided.
Well if it’s that convenient to just terminate what many would consider a wonder of nature then we are seriously u turning the natural human idea of procreation.
As for abortion on demand, well you have to look at it this way: What’s the cut off point? Should you be allowed to terminate at any stage of pregnancy for any reason? Even more specific, should a woman be allowed to terminate based on the knowledge of the gender of her unborn child?
As you can see from the video below, the UK has questioned this and they are more progressed in relation to the pro choice issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDMEchphyqc
As of people who argue that it’s not a human in a foetal state, that doesn’t account for how people view this “foetal matter” as soon as the sex has been determined; they view it will be a boy or a girl, so already they are thinking of “it” in terms of gender. We don’t think of tumours in terms of gender, they are tissue clumps in our bodies– We think of humans in terms of gender and many other identification tags.
Regardless of the outcome and future legislation, your point of view is pretty static on the issue and no bill can take that away.
Should she have 100% unrestricted right to choose ? Or should it be restricted?
Not so simple, so try and keep it balanced.
Name one Independent Alliance politician with “PRINCIPLES ” As for the CITIZENS ASSEMBLY that is nothing but a mudguard for politicians. Yes you know what we could do elect individuals in the next election onto the Citizens Assembly ohh shiit I forgot that would make them “POLITICIANS”
@Tony Hartigan: when FF sunk the country we blamed the PDs and then the Greens, then FG crushed the country with austerity and we attacked Labour. Now every time FG screws up we blame the Independents. But come the next elections ‘we’ will be voting FF or FG back into power because ‘our problems are the fault of the minority players in coalitions’.
Maybe we deserve the governments we get after all.
A possible referendum in 2018, the pope is coming that year that should keep us in the dark ages
Wow those “independents” recognised the danger to their ministerial pensions quickly. Turn coats.
I can’t understand all this garbage. If a woman decides she wants an abortion at anytime during the pregnancy then it should be her choice. It’s ridiculous.
Do you think a woman should have the right to abort if she finds out it will be a girl based on that knowledge? Or is denying her choice to do that rubbish?
@Jake Gundersonn: itbis nit for you to,decide although I would be astonished if, in real life, any woman in Ireland decided to have an abortion because of the future gender of the foetus.
But do you think she should be entitled to that choice? It’s her body and her pregnancy remember..
@Jake Gundersonn: You have a low opinion of, and know SFA about women with a comment like that.
@Micheal OLainn: Repeal the EU ,forget about the 8th.Time the Irish took their Country back,Sovereignty,Fish,Gas,Oil,Culture,Identity,Borders,the list goes on.
Hold on a second, this is about legislation regarding choice. It has nothing to with personal opinion regarding women or otherwise, that would unbalance the matter. I asked a question regarding choice in relation to termination which is what this repeal is effectively about. You are are jumping to conclusions with contempt for any discussion on the matter. I asked do you believe it should be her right to decide…a yes or a no with an explanation is really what suits along with your supporting viewpoint. Simple enough?
@Jake Gundersonn: You’re simple if that’s what you think the issue is about.
Explain what exactly it’s about in your understanding, and please refrain from using emotive language it’s almost like skimming through the Sun’s problem pages trying to read your replies.
@Jake Gundersonn: Don’t tell me how to reply. I don’t tell you not to try and act the smartar*e.
The issue here is the political and moral cowardice of a group of supposed independent TDs, who put their salaries expenses and perks, before the rights of half the population of the country.
You have the electorate to thank for that . Funny how things have a habit of repeating themselves in this country. Vicious circle of politics it seems.
@Dave Doyle: A electorate never has the right to do what is evil.
Endapendant troughers …
The Pro-Life side obviously didn’t call for the AAA-PBP bill to be supported. They aren’t in favour of infanticide at all so hence how could they have supported the bill???
@Paddy Flynn: For it to be classed as INFANTICIDE -the BABY MUST be BORN & it must be KILLED within it’s first year by one/both of it’s parents .
You do not have to thank me for the fact that I have just provided you with ,Paddy,but ffs,in future,you’ll have to stay well clear of those anti choice sites ..(And sorry for all of the shouting,it had to be done)
Please learn the difference between ‘their’ and ‘there’ – very annoying.
@Aine Cuddihy: their, their Aine. It’s ok.
@meatyslaps here here!
@Aine Cuddihy: Spot on my there.
@Aine Cuddihy: Theiyre, will that do ya, it covers them all.
Hillary Clinton defended partial birth abortion in the last debate. The procedure takes place as the baby is half way out of the mother. It involves piercing the babies skull with usually a scissors or scalpel…. But you have to be quick stabbing the baby to death because if it emerges from the mother before its stabbed in the brain that’s murder.
Yes. Right reproductive choice. The word choice is becoming one of the most abused words in the dictionary in our time I’m afraid. No point in telling people here about it, it contradicts liberal left wing mentality
@Alex Jones: Do you honestly expect people to take you serious when you say these things?? Your sick in the head. I hope you get the help you need. Sooner rather than later.
Brilliant
This is the Dáils version of Lanigans Ball stepping in again stepping out again. Ones who voted for Wallace’s bill knew full well that it would never succeed. Then the same ones vote against Coppinger’s bill because it will also never succeed. Very us full football is the Citizen’s Convention. This is the importance of being seen to do something but in actual fact doing nothing.
A display of political and moral cowardice by the IA.
Half the country need this subject put to bed once and for all.
There are no excuses for this cowardice.
Rev up and furk off 2% brigade.
The citizens assembly aren’t elected, the government are. Waiting for the assembly isn’t legitimate, I don’t want their opinion. I expect our elected to do their job. They’re all worried about keeping their seats, nothing else.
Ruth nationalise the government
Indies are disgusting roll inn GE
U ok hun?? XX
Once again our elected “representatives” outsource decision making and kick it down the road for at least another year.
have your say