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Leah Farrell/RollingNews.ie

Talks scheduled for tomorrow to avert large-scale teacher strikes

Teachers represented by the ASTI union will stop performing supervisory or substitution duties from Monday

Updated 10.15pm

TALKS WILL CONTINUE tomorrow in a bid to avert next week’s teachers strike, as Minister Richard Bruton warned today that a large number of schools will have to close.

In a statement released this evening the Department of Education said that a further meeting between the Department and the ASTI will be held tomorrow.

Department officials have remained in regular contact with the school management bodies on contingency arrangements ahead of the withdrawal of supervision and substitution from 7 November.
However, at this stage it remains the case that widespread school closures are expected from the 7 November due to the ASTI’s industrial action and non-cooperation with contingency.

Teachers represented by the ASTI union will stop performing supervisory or substitution duties from Monday. Speaking in the Dáil yesterday, the Minister for Education said “a large number of schools” will not be able to remain open once these services are withdrawn.

“Schools will notify parents as each school will make a different decision, based on particular circumstances,” he said, in response to a question from TD Thomas Byrne. “As the deputy knows, some secondary schools are entirely made up of TUI teachers, some are mixed and some are made up of ASTI teachers. It is ultimately the schools that will have to make that decision based on health and safety considerations.”

Byrne told the minister students are “deeply worried and parents are quite stressed out, wondering what is going to happen next week”. The next official strike date is scheduled for Tuesday next week, 8 November.

He said he was disappointed at the decision to take industrial action, saying he recognised this is a “major concern” for students and parents.

“We are working really hard to try to find a solution.”

Yesterday evening the ASTI said there had been “no developments”.

Read: No movement in teachers’ pay discussions ahead of next week’s strike>

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60 Comments
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    Mute Ed Ucator
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    Nov 4th 2016, 8:52 AM

    There are two issues: The strike for lower paid teacher to equalise pay for those who graduated after 2011. These teachers had a lower pay scale, the 10% cut for new entrants and removal of allowances. These are official strike days.

    School that close on Monday are not strike days. It’s a lockout refusing to let teachers teach and refusing to pay teachers for this lockout. The dept. knew months ago that it was likely that ASTI schools would withdraw S&S and the ballot confirmed it. This was previously paid in two lump sums during the year worth around €1769 in total. In 2013 the dept. removed this payment but very graciously increased the hours. However, they promised all three unions that payment would be restored in the future upon the signing of Haddington Road which all unions signed up to. After the expiry of the agreement the ASTI said “where is the S&S money you promised”. The dept. said “we’re not giving you what we promised from the last agreement unless you sign up to the new one”. Teachers did their part of the agreement, the dept. did not do theirs.

    If you told your child you would give him a treat for doing housework one morning but after completing the work you told him his wasn’t getting it unless he agreed to more housework you’d find he might not do the extra work because you broke your initial promise. As my Dad said (about drink), if you ate something that made you sick would you eat it again? Why agree to the LRA when the promises of it might not be fulfilled either?

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    Mute Stephen murphy
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:10 AM

    @Ed Ucator: Who’ll pay for all this, the Private Sector and aren’t they squeezed enough as it is. Here we go, back to the good ol’ days of me me me and pay me more more more. Do you think, the PSW are the only ones suffering?

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    Mute Valthebear
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:12 AM

    The minister’s negotiating skills have been appalling. Whatever one’s opinion’s on the dispute, his Department’s actions have been very provocative. In other countries his position would be now untenable given what we’re facing next week.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:21 AM

    Can we please not start the rubbish of pay bills being solely down to private sector workers? Public sector workers pay their taxes too.

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    Mute Margo Jackson
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:00 AM

    The teachers who opted out of the scheme are paying for it… We have had our pay deducted for the last number of years.. That’s where the money is to come from. No worker in the private sector or any other will have to suffer. The dept have the money already and will continue to have it on our backs but are refusing to pass it on.

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    Mute Ed Ucator
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:40 AM

    @Stephen murphy: Not incl. PRSI and PAYE as a public sector worker I’m paying an additional €345 a month in deductions but this doesn’t take into account the additional weeks work as a teacher from Croke Park hours, or the free S&S the dept. got for the last number of years. In 2014 this figure was €409 a month, the best part of my mortgage. You talk as if you suffered and no one else did. Please remember, the official strike days are not for a raise but for pay equality for new entrants. Ireland has to be the only first world country that openly discriminates against a group of people.

    What is the difference then if the government said they were going to pay gay people less, black, asian or eastern european people less, or even pay women less? But it’s ok to pay younger people less on top the the additional deductions? They are not looking to be paid the same as someone teacher 30 years. A pre-2011 teacher on point 8 of the scale compared to new entrant on point 8 will earn at least €4194 a year less. That is wrong.

    I hear it from friends, family etc. about “allowances” but the same people give out about the quality of some teachers (there are plenty of bad ones out there). One positive aspect of the qualification allowances were to reward people for their level of education. If you had a doctorate, masters, first class honours, SEN qualification etc. you got paid more. This was to incentivise people to upskill, do better and become better teachers. And at that, a Masters can cost up to €10,000. After taxes the additional take home pay over a career is negligible. For my own M.Ed. It will take me 34 years before I repay the cost of my masters. If the allowances were not there when I did mine I would not have done it and my school would have one less qualified person.

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    Mute Carol Oates
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:44 AM

    So you think because you are squeezed, as we all are, teachers should work these hours for free? Don’t forget they already do free hours in class prep and correcting assignments outside their teaching hours. No one would accept going into their workplace and working for free on a long term basis. Teachers have bills to pay like everyone else.

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    Mute Gary
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:38 AM

    Stephen, the Foreign multinationals that employ our “private sector workers” will pay for it. Those companies keep our hospitals, schools etc going by giving jobs to Irish people. If it wasn’t for foreign investment because of our low corporation tax we’d all be screwed. They pay practically all of us on this island. The likes of google, intel, HP, facebook, eBay, the thousands of jobs they made in the IFSC, etc etc.

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    Mute EvieXVI
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:57 AM

    @Ed Ucator: Every single new entrant to public sector was subject to a 10% cut to their pay scale in 2011. It was not just teachers.The Government, has started to reverse the pay cuts for union members whose union has signed up to the LRA.
    The LRA is an extension of the Haddington Road Agreement, it is an acknowldedgement that, as a country, we are still not out of a recession, and most public service unions have signed up to it. By refusing to, and concentrating only on the extra hours that have to be worked (S&S and Croke Park combined still is little more than 2 hours per week), the ASTI is not standing up for new entrants at all.

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    Mute Ed Ucator
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    Nov 4th 2016, 1:21 PM

    @EvieXVI: Are the Gardaí not looking for a pay deal too? Gardaí, teachers, nurses etc. want pay restoration which is not an increase while the Luas and Dublin Bus drivers got an increase. We got a pay cut and extra hours. The ASTI are right to withdraw S&S. If your employer told you that if he’ll pay you overtime if you work until 10pm that night. At 10pm he says he’s not paying you the promised overtime unless you agree to work overtime the following day. The government should have restored the S&S to honour their part of the HRA and not made the payment a condition of LRA.

    “Started to reverse”? Using this logic, if your child was getting bullied would you accept an excuse of “Well, he’s not going to completely stop bullying your son all out however, I can promise that he’ll only hit him once a day as opposed to three times a day and in the future we’ll what can be done to stop it completely.

    If your boss told you to work two extra hours a week without pay what would you say (it’s actually 2 hours 20 minutes but I like that you rounded down)?

    These cuts have been inflicted since 2011, 5 years so far and by the “phasing of restoration” it will be 10 years before pay is completely RESTORED (not increase). That’s 1/4 of someone’s working life.

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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Nov 4th 2016, 1:51 PM

    I’m just wondering will primary schools be affected by the strike?

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    Mute EvieXVI
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    Nov 4th 2016, 1:53 PM

    @Ed Ucator: Yes, the Gardai are. The ASGI and the ASTI are rejecting the LRA. All the other public sector unions have backed the deal.

    My point is that we have all been hit – in the private sector as well as the public sector. And using the analogy of a child being bullied is completely disingenuous.

    My contract includes a clause that I work extra hours ‘as and when required,’ like many in the public sector. I work a minimum of 40 hours per week, with 22 days holidays per year. I am well-educated and qualified, but receive no extra payments for qualifications (they’re just considered to be a requirement, a basic degree is not enough in many sectors anymore), and my salary is low. Comparing public sector to private sector is never going to gain you sympathy

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    Mute Ed Ucator
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    Nov 4th 2016, 3:25 PM

    @EvieXVI: You got a qualification and got a job, well done. But my point is that in your job why would you other upskilling if there is no financial gain? Why should a teacher take on a M.Ed. in SEN, ICT, Teaching and Learning and put themselves through years of part-time research on top of their work and family commitments for the benefit of the school and not receive an allowance for it? There are no more posts of responsibility so who becomes the SEN co-ordinator? Who is the anti-bullying co-ordinator? I had a parent at a PTM three years ago use the words “Sure all you do is get kids to read from a book and give homework. It’s a handy number and you all complain about it” with a smug face. A few weeks later her child get beat up then bullied online, both in and out of school by and demanded we sort it out and what we were doing to prevent it. After two days of meetings (both in and after school) and finally sorted, I told the mother I didn’t appreciate her comment at a PTM and if she truly believed all we done was read from a book and give homework why did she want us to sort out this non-teaching issue. My point being is that I’ve upskilled in this area and to be honest I wouldn’t have bother had there have been no incentive to do it. The same goes for ICT in schools? Some study for their M.Ed. in ICT and get a post then to maintain the IT within the school. Now there are no more posts and no allowances. Why would anyone do the M.Ed. and not get paid for it and on top of that not get paid for the extra work they do?

    Oh and your extra hours ‘as and when required’, do you get paid for them? Overtime too? No one is looking for sympathy just restoration of pay.

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    Mute Michelle Dermody
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    Nov 4th 2016, 3:28 PM

    At the moment no primary school is affected and not all post primary schools are affected. Different unions.

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    Mute EvieXVI
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    Nov 4th 2016, 4:01 PM

    @Ed Ucator: In most professions, there is a degree of flexibility. I don’t get paid overtime, I sometimes get time back in lieu, but not always. I did not, at any point, suggest that allowances should not be paid based on qualifications, just that this is not the norm in the private sector. (And why should someone be paid an allowance for having a degree or a HDip, when these are required for the job?).

    My point is simple, I think that the ASTI is in wrong here. Other public sector unions have agreed to a gradual restoration of pay, based on the financial situation that this country is in. ‘Equal pay for equal work’ just doesn’t cut it for most – teachers in different unions are on different pay scales, so there’s no equality there, and the lower rates for NQTs apply to all new entrants to the public sector.

    Instead of trying to gain a bit extra for these NQTs, by working a few extra hours, the ASTI is digging in its heels.

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    Mute Ed Ucator
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    Nov 4th 2016, 6:18 PM

    @EvieXVI: You see the ASTI did play ball. They did sign up to the CPA and the HRA. The conditions of the HRA haven’t been fulfilled by the dept. so why would they sign up to the next agreement? The HRA conditions were fulfilled for the government for other union but for teachers it wasn’t. The TUI and INTO caved but the ASTI did not. All three should have rejected it because for teachers the conditions were not met. It’s as simple as that.

    And regarding degree allowances, teachers started on point 3 because they studied for 3/4 years but I’d like to point out that previously you didn’t need a degree to teach. I asked a former colleague (now retired) who said that when a degree requirement was brought in for teaching those with a degree received the allowance whereas those without one did not, just a h-dip. Now it’s a requirement for all to have a degree. There are still older teachers out there without a degree who do not have an allowance for it.

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    Mute Patrick Gough
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:58 PM

    gay people should be paid less. They don’t have to spend fortunes on women in an attempt to seduce them.

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    Mute Tensing Norgay
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    Nov 5th 2016, 12:16 AM

    Private sector are more or less voiceless in these debates . The media in Ireland pick evocative and isolated worst case scenarios to depict an impoverished public sector . I agree there are those in hardship but what then must it be like for private sector worker who on average are paid less , have poorer pension(if any ) no security of tenure, they have no voice in government or media

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    Mute Derek Derp
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    Nov 5th 2016, 12:51 PM

    @Ed Ucator: f

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    Mute Abdul
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    Nov 5th 2016, 6:41 PM

    No they will not

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 5th 2016, 10:18 PM

    @tensing, so argue FOR the private sector worker instead of against the public sector. Zero hour contracts anyone?????

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    Mute the truth hurts
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    Nov 4th 2016, 7:58 AM

    Withdrawing S&S payment to teachers was stupid and provocative by the Dept of Ed.

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    Mute Ed Ucator
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    Nov 4th 2016, 8:53 AM

    @the truth hurts: And increase the hours of S&S from 37 to 43.

    112
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    Mute Billy Mooney
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:09 AM

    The ASTI members are to be applauded for their willingness to take a stand on the discrimination against newer entrants. The TUI should follow their lead and force the government back on this blatant attack on workers to pay for the banker’s debts. Solidarity with the teachers.

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    Mute Cg dublin
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:22 AM

    Equally the ASTI withdrawing from Croke Park hours was provocative and that is the reason for the non-payment. The union knew the chain of events that would unfold from that action though they did not publicise it to their members. Not sure the vote would have been the same if members knew they would not be paid. Some of the union just spoiling for a fight.

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    Mute Billy Mooney
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:47 AM

    It’s long past time the union leadership began to fight instead of holding their unions passive on the sidelines as the country has been ransacked for the past 8 years to pay for the debts of speculative financial capitalism. Decades of “social partnership” has bought off most of the union leaders and they’re now part of the cozy establishment and no longer represent the working class.

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    Mute brian boru
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    Nov 4th 2016, 12:03 PM

    @Billy Mooney: Go on out of that we have the most well looked after teachers in the world and they are using the nations children’s education as a bargaining chip for more money,

    Absolute support for the Guards not a bit for the teachers. If they want to strike do it on one of the 180 days a year they have off. Do not use children’s education to bargain for more money

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    Mute John Peeters
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    Nov 4th 2016, 2:13 PM

    I thought the Union did the Croke Park hours, complying with the terms of the original agreement. The department then moved the goalposts, so you can understand in some ways why the ASTI feel this way. Of course, there is the question why the TUI signed up to same, but the ASTI didn’t.

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    Mute Adrian Guinan
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:48 PM

    198 days off !

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    Mute John
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    Nov 5th 2016, 1:41 AM

    Billy I agree there should be parity of pay, the older qualified teachers in the ASTI knew full well they were dumping on new entrants when they negotiated a lesser pay reduction for themselves at the time of the crash than other public servants took on.
    Keep the same pot of money and reduce older teachers salary and increase newer teachers salary till they match,
    Voila problem sorted at no extra cost to the taxpayer.

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    Mute Live at Oriel
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    Nov 5th 2016, 3:48 AM

    You are 100 per cent right .I am teaching for 30 years and a member of the ASTI.No way did anyone think the. 22 person executive of the union condemn us to an indefinite course of action where we get taken off the pay roll.The govt owe each teacher doing S and S 750 euro .But the ASTI ban means we loose our actual weekly wages.This action seems to have another agenda.Unfottunatly the ASTI at the top are hell bent on confrontation and no compromise .The govt top are a disgrace too by the way they have acted .But make no mistake on Monday I am being locked out of my work by the ASTI in the main.They put teachers on a driverless bus heading towards the edge of a cliff .On Monday we go over the cliff

    Gerry Malone Dundalk

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    Mute Willy
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    Nov 4th 2016, 8:02 AM

    We need a better deal on the unfair bankers debt. With the unstable state of the Euro and European Union, we should be looking to renegotiate that overbearing debt. Politicians with balls we lack, and our people are not payed equally for this reason. Remember FG introduced unequal pay to pay Europe this private debt. A simple mention of Eirexit will see the sit up…..

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    Mute Niall O D
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:44 PM

    I agree, however our politicians do have balls and brass necks to match. The problem is their ability, experience and incredibly with some of them just not very intelligent…right from
    the top with Edna down to the Healy Rae’s, Mary Mitchell O Connor etc. We are a laughing stock and an embarrassment in Europe.

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    Mute mickmc
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:28 AM

    Keep them closed for a few weeks and once it starts seriously hitting the older teachers in the pockets we see how much solidarity they have with their younger colleagues. Unfortunately However once again I can see the government caving into the unions like they did last night. Sure the crumbs we got in last months budget can be reversed and increase the national debt to pay for all these pay rises.

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    Mute Marie Dignam
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:39 AM

    @mickmc:@mickmc:like the rest of the Public and Civil Servants, Teachers are looking for pay restoration and harmonisation, NOT pay rises!

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    Mute Brendan Greene
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:43 AM

    You’re wrong about that. The majority of the teachers are older and knew what they were voting for

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    Mute mickmc
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:49 AM

    Yes Brendan but if the government have the cut their wages for 2 or more weeks will the solidarity still be there. I think We’d soon see the crack emerging.

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    Mute mickmc
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:51 AM

    Playing around with words Marie. Same thing. Costing the private sector workers more money with nothing in return.

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    Mute Liam Kennedy
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:11 AM

    If they can afford to offer to pay parents 38euro an hour to cover substitution and supervision during the strike periods it is hard to see why they refused to pay the teachers 6euro a week for the same work. Come on even in the private sector this does not make sense.

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    Mute mickmc
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:17 AM

    I imagine it would be a hard earned €38 from the abuse they’d be taking from the teachers.

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    Mute EvieXVI
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:36 AM

    @ Liam Kennedy: 38euro per day – not per hour

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    Mute Liam Kennedy
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:38 AM

    I imagine you would feel as angered if you did a task for 6.3 weeks and were paid €38 and i come in do it for an hour and walk out with the same money. I think it would show the small regard you were held in by your employer.

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    Mute Liam Kennedy
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:46 AM

    @evie we are both wrong it is €38 euro for a minimum of two hours and additional hours above the minimum 2 will be paid at €19 per hour. Still a significant amount above €6/week.

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    Mute EvieXVI
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:58 AM

    Again – it’s 38euro per day…

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    Mute Liam Kennedy
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:03 AM

    Correct, if the day is only two hours long

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    Mute EvieXVI
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:35 AM

    @Liam Kennedy: I can’t see many parents doing more than 2 hours per school day (presumable, this will only happen in schools where there are teachers who will be teaching?), yet the parents would have to spend most of the day in the school. So 38euro per day is realistic, and your 38euro per hour is way off….Either way, for any parent who is emplyed, it means either taking a day of annual leave or unpaid leave, so they would hardly be profiting.

    And it’s incorrect to say that ‘If they can afford to offer to pay…. it is hard to see why they refused to pay the teachers 6euro a week for the same work.’ This is a contingency plan aimed at minimising the disruption to students, it is not a long-term plan.

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    Mute Moorooka Mick
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:18 AM

    Teachers and Gardai are lucky to have unions to look after them but ordinary working class individuals have to cop
    it sweet and take what they are offered.
    It is quite tragic that working class people have to pay for the sins of bankers, venture capitalists and politicians who
    aided and abetted them to act irresponsibly.

    Working class have to:
    -forego normal wage increases
    -pay the USC
    -pay higher VAT

    No wonder that the Dail is a dog’s dinner . Working class people have been trashed by Fine Gael , Labour & Fianna Fail and simply don’t know who to turn to. If they were French they would hit the streets to assert their rights but of
    course the spin doctors have done a hatchet job on those who did not cause the country’s economic woes.
    -pay property tax
    -pay water tax

    Why have Governments post the GFC not levied extra taxes on those who caused havoc and virtually bankrupted
    the country.

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    Mute Cally
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:27 AM

    You mean ordinary working class people like the LUAS drivers..the public will pay for their enormous pay increase..

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    Mute Francid Dooley
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:25 PM

    Bruton, has been nocking round to long sick of looking at him and can’t listen to he’s waffle any more. Think he should just go off into a corner and count his money.

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    Mute Jonathan Mills
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    Nov 4th 2016, 9:24 AM

    Can you update this article to include Thomas Byrne TDs party; then we will know if the question was hostile or if it was set up so the minister could make a statement. Thanks.

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    Mute @mdmak33
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:02 PM

    Gda got €45 mn extra.the banks and businesses must be protected.meanwhile public hospitals are being run down,and public schools are being closed down.all services the working classes,the vulnerable in society depend on.

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    Mute Patrick Gough
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    Nov 4th 2016, 10:55 PM

    The government is going to be tough on the teachers. Make up for giving into the guards.

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    Mute Charliegrl80
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    Nov 4th 2016, 3:12 PM
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    Mute Charliegrl80
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    Nov 4th 2016, 3:12 PM

    @Charliegrl80: Forgot to add – I fully support our teachers!!!

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    Mute Live at Oriel
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    Nov 5th 2016, 3:51 AM

    Test

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    Mute Live at Oriel
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    Nov 5th 2016, 3:56 AM

    Why are comments not posting

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    Mute EvieXVI
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:23 AM

    @Liam Kennedy: I can’t see many parents doing more than 2 hours per school day (presumable, this will only happen in schools where there are teachers who will be teaching?), yet the parents would have to spend most of the day in the school. So 38euro per day is realistic, and your 38euro per hour is way off….Either way, for any parent who is emplyed, it means either taking a day of annual leave or unpaid leave, so they would hardly be profiting.

    And it’s incorrect to say that ‘If they can afford to offer to pay…. it is hard to see why they refused to pay the teachers 6euro a week for the same work.’ This is a contingency plan aimed at minimising the disruption to students, it is not a long-term plan.

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    Mute Cg dublin
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    Nov 4th 2016, 11:37 AM

    6€ a week is not quite right. That is the figure per fortnight after tax. Teachers have to deliver a maximum of 43 hours per annum. When you take the annual allowance and divide by 43 it comes out roughly the same as external supervisors have been offered

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