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THE GOVERNMENT NARROWLY avoided unprecedented industrial action this week after gardaí called off a planned strike at the last minute.
But a pay deal offered to gardaí has now prompted unions representing other civil service sectors to call for better deals for workers.
Trade unions Siptu, the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation (INMO) and the Civil and Public Services Union (CPSU) have all said they would review the deal offered to gardaí.
Meanwhile, Trade union Unite has said that a renegotiation of the Lansdowne Road Agreement is needed in light of the deal.
The agreement, which was negotiated in 2015, aimed to reverse cuts in the public service made during the recession.
So, today we’re asking: Should the Lansdowne Road Agreement be replaced?
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Fair play to the Luas drivers who have encouraged all other workers to go out and strike if need to..Yes the Lansdowne agreement needs renegotiation.
Well said. The Luas drivers led the way and they’re private sector. Workers across all sectors are beginning to ask themselves “Where’s our recovery?”
And many are beginning to understand that nothing will be given to them willingly by the capitalist class and the establishment political class that serves them. They will have to fight for every inch of concession as the workers who depend on the goodwill of capital will be mercilessly exploited.
@Eamonn Boylan: As you walk around Dublin these days you can see a significant amount of cranes covering the skyline. You know what represents the recovery for these construction workers? Their jobs. They don’t get to go on strike, and many of them were forced to take the dole or leave the country for work.
Go pretty much anywhere in the countryside and there farmers represent the struggles that continue to go on there. They don’t get to go on strike. None of the private sector do. Yet here we have public and semi-public workers going on strike because the country now has a small sum to spend.
They kept their jobs in the bad times, they complain about the conditions they work in, but rather than see those conditions improved they’ve decided they want more money out of everyone else’s hand. What’s the point in even discussing an improvement in transport, health care, water, or any of these things when at the first glint of silver we have everyone on strike. Sheer greed.
Remember during the boom, when construction workers were imported by the companies to work for €3 an hour? Good times, good times.
The luas is private sector. They went on strike. Expect thing fir farmers to get worse not CETA, and next TTIP will be forced through.
@JoseMacPhisto: What we have seen this week is the last straw, time to get out of this kip, only a matter of time before it all goes tits up again, just like before.
Jose. I will say to you as I have said to others on here. If the Public Service is such a good gig why haven’t you joined. All the Jobs are publicly advertised and all Irish and EU citizens are entitled to apply. But yet all I see on here are excuses why they won’t join.
@Mick Jordan: if the public service is such a badly paid job why don’t you leave?
Because I am giving back to the community of which I serve. I do a job few others will do but is necessary for the security and safety of of the citizens of this state. So I will turn the question around why don’t you join one of the Uniformed Services and give back to the community?
nah, pay is crap!
Then why are you complaining about it?
@Mick Jordan: cause its crap
So therefore you must concede that the Public Sector are due their pay restoration.
@Mick Jordan: no restoration makes it sound like you earned it (raise). funny how this all started with the luas drivers getting a pay rise and upsetting only the public sector (luas increased its fares to suit), now look where we are.
take the money and run, you guys are in bonus territory and should realise it will not last, do not whinge when its taken off you again as the country has the ever predictable melt down, enjoy!
Ciaran. Pay Restoration is exactly what it says. The Government struck a deal 8 years ago that the Pay Cuts would be a “Temporary Measure” during the Financial Crisis. That Crisis has now passed. A “Pay Rise” would be over and above what was “Temporarily” cut. And as far as I am aware nobody in the Public Service has looked for a “Pay Rise”.
@Mick Jordan: news flash! 8 years ago there should have been a cull in the public sector just as there was in the private, but no the unions ensured jobs for all, be thankful for that, instead of acting the spoilt brat
@JoseMacPhisto: @…everyone on strike-sheer greed,’- grow up, and start thinking! Do you think any of the increases won by Luas/bus drivers or Guards will go into property speculation or dodgy dealings- of course not, it will be spent in the real economy, to the benefit of all! Every penny of profit over the last decade has been used to increase the suffering of the masses, and every cent saved in the public sector has been channeled to the well off in tax cuts (see Budget 2017.) If anybody, whether working for the state or a capitalist, wins a pay rise, I cheer, unless they’re already on 100k, because its us or them, so when a guard or a nurse-or a tram driver- triumphs OUR side wins!
What’s wrong Ciaran. Don’t like being corrected. You made a stupid statement and got your hand slapped. It was you that said our pay was “Crap”. Then you attempted to condecend to us and say that what the PS is seeking was a “Pay Rise” when it is quite clearly not. It is exactly what the Government made a deal on, Pay Restoration.
How much is this ‘pay restoration’ Mick? Put a % on it, tell us how you arrived at that % and tell us tax payers how you propose that this will be funded. Finally, please bear in mind that our country is €200bn in debt and the celtic tiger died about a decade ago.
@Sean @114: Sean for me personally it is worth about €10,000 I cant speak for others as Everyones pays is different (grade, rank etc)
What would that be made up of Mick? I mean what %s and from where. Let’s hope you’re not a tyical case or it will cost the taxpaer €130m per year on the gardai alone. Add the increment and overtime consequences and that figure. Has you’re basic gross pay seriously been reduced by 10K? I know CSO indicates the gardai are paid more now than 2008 but your numbers seem to bust that myth. Would be interesting to know the % makeup though as everyone seems to want to keep this a secret. Let’s hope it’s not USC as we all pay that. Not PRD either as the first 29K of earnings is exempt on that and what charge remains reduces taxable pay.
@Sean @114:Its made up of core pay that was cut under FEMPI
So your basic pay has been cut by 10,000 per annum? I never heard of basic gross pay being cut by so much as part of FEMPI and this is before pension levy and USC I presume. You must be down about 40%. Yet gardai are still on an average of 1300 pw and higher paid than 2008. They must have been on some money before ‘core pay’ was cut. Who is going to pay for this 130m in ‘core pay’ restoration Mick, if 10k is an average? When PRD is fully phased out then the tax payer will then have to stump up another 700m towards the pensions. So the bill is at 830m per year now.
@Sean @114: Are you assuming I am a Garda? If you are you are in error.
@Sean @114: As for the PRD it contributes nothing to the pension but goes straight into general spending.
Actually PRD is used to cut the budget of the body that the employee works for. It’s all one pot at the end of the day. No I’m using the gardai as an example because their numbers are quite public. Any idea how this ‘restoration’ is going to be funded? The difference is your tax doesn’t increase if my basic does. I’m sure you can understand the disgruntlement. Especially with outrageous demands for 16.5% pay increases. It has to be paid for some how.
@Sean @114: How its funded is the Government’s problem to solve. That is why Ministers , TD’s in the Pubic Accounts Committee and Secretary General of the Dept of Finance get paid to figure things like this out.
Well said Michael, that’s the most intelligent comment I’ve read on this issue!
@Mick Jordan: You’re giving back, are you doing it for nothing so and why are you being paid for that charitable service you provide?
@Stephen murphy: I have to eat too as do my family. Are you another one expecting the Services the Public Sector provide for free. Would you prefer to pay Private Companies to Police,to run the Fire Service, to Operate Private Hospitals only?
It’s dead in the water. This sham of a government insisted Lansdowne road was ‘the only show in town’ and that there wasn’t another cent available. The Gardaí put it up to them and, lo and behold, €38,000,000 is found down the back of the sofa.
The agreed and promised pay restorations need to take place, and we need to reintroduce equal pay for equal work.
@For Connolly:
Doesn’t “equal pay for equal work” mean getting rid of public sector increments?
I mean if two people are doing the same job, why pay the one who has been doing it a year longer more?
They are doing “equal work”.
Equal pay for equal work means there will only be one incremental scale, not 3 as there currently is.
@Ciara: Correct Ciara.
I corrected brinster on this before, but he insists on making himself look silly over and over.
@Ciara:
So occasionally “equal pay” then, but mostly not.
Gotcha.
@Brinster: Fair play to ya brinster, you really are the one true voice for doubling down on silly comments.
@For Connolly: should one not point to the ignored equalities laws for the disables who go to work, the homeless who have lost their home because of austerity public pay deductions during fempi , what about the youth of Ireland who got the worst deal, what about the old people who are sick and afraid. The government current and past have left all these matters without solving them. I imagine if you are sick and go to the hospital you will see that too much frontline staff were removed from the public sector. It is a mess and this government like the last won’t sort it out but give in when the police strike could have brought them down. The Minister of Justice is paid €180,000 per year plus expenses is she being paid enough to sit on her hands as she does and do nothing. It up to the Irish people to tell her what they think. I know if I sat on my hands in my job I would be sacked. Time for a new agreement because a first step of getting rid of this government was taken and led by Minister France’s Fitzgerald who done nothing to resolve the police dispute for two years. Now the rest of those under landsdowne road can expect the same.
@For Connolly:
No, just trying to understand the misleading rhetoric.
Teachers do NOT want “equal pay for equal work” because that would mean that someone teaching for 10 years gets paid the same as someone teaching for 5. And they want to keep those incremental increases for doing the same job.
What the ASTI is looking for is “pay parity” with those working under different agreements.
But those operating under different agreements have different conditions which the ASTI doesn’t accept.
So they want the equal money but not equal conditions.
“Equal pay for equal work” when it suits.
But mostly “Increments”.
I have no problem with equal pay for equal work, I think the guards, nurses and teachers deserve to have their pay restored and conditions improved.
The problem is for every one of those that deserve their increase there’s a For Connolly. A public servant who obviously is surplus to requirements in his workplace. Who spends the day on the web because there isn’t enough work for him to do but he can’t be sacked because of the protection he has as a public servant. These are the people that I resent getting a pay increase.
@Brinster: So somebody correctly states “Equal Pay for Equal Work” and the dumb mob descend on this person saying its a silly comment……. The same dumb mob that is administering the state…… And we wonder why the country is f*cked…..
@Brinster: Like I said, doubling down on the silly comments. We are referring to unifying pay scales, it’s not that difficult a concept, and no amount of twisting and silliness is going to convince people otherwise.
But, please, continue…..
@Charlie Melia:
It’s bizzare.
Every year the pay rates for those entering the private sector change.
Sometimes up, sometimes down, depending on sector growth, desirability, quality of candidate etc.
Anyone demanding “equal pay” with someone who was hired under totally different conditions would be told where to go pretty damn quickly. I mean it would be unheard of.
There are a lot of fantastic public servants. Front line staff especially.
And then there are others who just feel entitled and who have no idea how good they have it.
@For Connolly:
Don’t just dismiss the disagreement as silly, FC. You’re smarter than that.
Tell me WHY it is silly to point out that “equal pay” and “increments” are contradictory.
You can’t have both simultaneously.
Which is why I object to the phrase “Equal Pay for Equal Work”. Because is is misleading.
Why not call it “pay parity”?
At least that is honest.
@Brinster: “Every year the pay rates for those entering the private sector change. ”
No.
For SOME entering the private sector.
Oh, and my wife works in the private sector, and is paid on an incremental pay scale just like I am in the public sector. Difference is, her pay has not been cut since the crash, whereas mine has 3 times.
You see, brinster, when you try to paint both sectors in such broad brushstrokes, you come across as somebody who has very little knowledge or experience of either.
@For Connolly:
I’m not objecting to increments as a concept. I think people get better with experience.
But the fact is that increments mean “unequal” pay for equal work.
The ASTI is trying to have its cake and eat it by using this insultingly dishonest phrase.
@Brinster: “Which is why I object to the phrase “Equal Pay for Equal Work”
Oh, how sad for you.
Quick, notify the ASTI and the Department of Education that the phraseology being used in todays negotiations has to be amended, lest brinster takes exception and once again finds himself in the gruelling position of having to object to a phrase.
@Brinster: public sector employees do not deserve an opinion on pay parity, they live in an artificial world when it comes to reward for a job well done, you would think they were hard done by. the unions and ff/fg have hit the reset button bringing us back to 04,05/06 era of economics, but enjoy it while it lasts, bye bye state assets.
take an enormous bow
Ciaran. If a Public Servant is super efficient, super conscientious, work extra hours for nothing, will they get a pay rise? Will they get an immediate promotion? Get any recognition at all. The answer to all the above is No. But you in the Private Sector would likely get all 3. Some join the Public Service as a way to give back to their communities such as Gardai, Nurses/Paramedics, Prison Officers, Fire Fighters, Customs Officers and the Military. Others join for job security. Very very few join for the pay. And any that do are coming in on contracts that are very similar to the conditions they were getting in the Private Sector. So in reality there is no Artificial world as you put it.
@Mick Jordan: who is to blame for two guys/gals in an office, one works well the other does sweet fa, yet they both get paid the same, very very unfair. that’s the nugget why is that situation allowed to happen?
Brinster, Equal opportunity for equal work. Sound better?
Ciaran. You are the one complaining.
If there’s no incentive to be hard working, the system rewards the lazy
And equal pay for Civilians who have to work along side well able bodied Gardai in offices across the country.
@Gwendoline: Civilians doing paperwork, Gardaí getting shot/spat and insulted by members of public. Are they doing equal work. I didn’t know, typing a summons and enforcing it were equal?
I don’t think there will be much choice. If they moved the goalpost for one organisation it will have a knock on affect. With more strikes looming somethings got to give.
Ironically for the Govt, it was the fact that they kept moving the goal posts within the agreement, kept backing out on commitments and failing to keep to the agreement that kicked the unions off. They wouldn’t be in this position had they not simply stuck to their own terms.
I cant believe we are back to this madness with the public sector. The rest of us should be marching on the streets to stop these unsustainable pay rises. It is not right to have a public sector paid so much more that the private plus have these gold plated benefits and pensions. The Unions are far too powerful and we need a government with balls to break them http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/public-sector-pay-rates-nearly-50-higher-than-those-in-private-sector-1.1907313
No Paul. We should have marched in the streets to stop the €100+ billion of odious banker debt being loaded on to our backs which has crucified all workers in the private and public sector and everyone else. And remember it was the governments led by FF/Green and then FG/Labour which did this. If we had a union leadership with balls who stood with the working class and were prepared to grind the country to a halt to prevent this monstrous theft we wouldn’t be in the position we are now.
@Paul P O’Sullivan: The figure in that 2 year old article you linked to uses the AVERAGE figure. Most public servants make less than the average industrial wage.
@Paul what are you talking about??? Seriously!
It’s not a pay rise Paul. It’s restoration of the pay that was taken off us when the crash started. There’s a massive difference.
@Paul P O’Sullivan: Fully agree Paul. This entitlement mentality has to be challenged.
Paul if you feel so strongly apply for a public sector job, then you won’t have anything to complain about
@Charlie Melia: Are you going to start with the bankers then and the Apple and Google etc tax dodgers? Government policy is charity for the entitled corporate parasites and austerity for the working class.
More nonsense. Of course its an average. The way an average works is some people have to earn less. For example hundreds of thousands of private sector employees earn minimum wage with no gold plated pension
Paul. How many Private Sector workers have mandatory payments into a pension fund? In fact how many Private Sector workers are paying into a pension fund at all? My “Golden Pension” will be made up of my State Contributory pension which will make up 50% and the other 50% will come from my Work Contributory Pension of which I will have made mandatory payments into for 30 years. Now if you in the Private Sector have being paying 7% of your Pre Tax Gross wages into a pension fund for 30+ years you too would get a nice Pension return plus your State Old Age Contributory Pension.
@Paul P O’Sullivan: “The way an average works is some people have to earn less. ”
Yes, but what’s missing in your averaged figure is the caveat that the vast majority of the public sector earn less, not ‘some’. Which undermines the whole point of your argument.
One of the key strategies of the capitalist class is to keep the working class divided. They set us at each others throats under a variety of guise, working vs unemployed, public sector vs private sector, on nationality, race and religious grounds to fight over the crumbs so that we never look up to see who is dining royally at our expense.
@For Connolly: go to the union as that is unfair, if the little guy gets a increase in wages therefore the big guy gets one thanks to the union not work load, do you understand supply and demand? civil service or state employees are pricing themselves out of work, the next thing will be to outsource the work as it is cheaper all round and you know who will win contracts left right and centre. now that would be ironic, working for the likes of Michael o leary lol
@Billy Mooney: your 100% right however it seems not everybody got the memo
Dont waste your time paul, social media is dominiated by public sector .the poll tells you that . Even communits like mooney look popular . The aggreements were entered into in good faith , the unions greed will now supplant their moral obligation to abide by these negotiated agreements . Funny same union will cry about bad faith and provocation if guys get docked pay for withdrawing services. We will now be treated to a month of stories of hardship stories across the media to reinforce the union agenda . Gov will buckle and we will pretend we dont add to our massive public debt . Oh well what could go wrong , trump get elected and cause a global depression , hopefully enough of us private sector keep our jobs to keep it all propped up
Tensing. Agreements have to be kept by both sides. So far the the Government haven’t kept up their side. FEMPI was supposed to be temporary. That was 8 years ago. What would you call temporary?
@Tensing Norgay: “Dont waste your time paul, social media is dominiated by public sector .the poll tells you that ”
Yes yes tensing. Social media employs special firewalls which filter out anti public sector voting and comments, allowing less than one in 5 of the working population to ‘dominate’ it.
Cheers for the chuckle.
Paup p o sullivan Your so right, I work as a prison officer(through choice) . I find myself giving my gold plated benefits away to charity as i get paid so much. As for my lovely pension. I only have to pay a levy on it as well as been deducted at source for it. Not to mention work 24/7 in a prison for 30 years for it. Publicjobs.ie log on and join us pal – 17(1) D porche already ordered and flights booked for a trip to florida !!!!!
Connolly , no need to illustrate your ignorance , i thought it would be obvious but i may have overestimated your unnderstanding . its not a issue of technology but a matter of union coordination and a increased likely hood of your demographic to use e-media than the conservative base . Surely as a rabid communist you will recognise this
@Derek Trotter: at last someone who chose their job in the ps.
do you really have a pension?
@Tensing Norgay: “its not a issue of technology but a matter of union coordination and a increased likely hood of your demographic to use e-media than the conservative base ”
LOL!
I love how the ‘shinners’ dominate social media, until there’s a public sector related story. Then it’s the ‘unions’.
Classic tensing. Any other conspiracy theories to give us a chuckle?
@For Connolly: you know the way most people in the ps earn less than the average industrial wage?
it happens in the private sector, probably more rampant. so you can see why some get irked when they see pay rewards with no merit other than “because”.
Ciaran. Everyone working in the PS chose their job. And everyone in the PS pays mandatory contributions into a pension and to receive the full benefits of that pension must do so for 40 years. Now let me ask you a few questions. Do you have a Private pension? Will you have paid into it for 40 years before you draw it? And finally how much will you get from it per week?
@Mick Jordan: no, no pension thank god. I worked around these pension fund managers and would not let them mind my dog never mind my money. the pension I did pay into has nothing in it as it was removed by mr.noonan in the form of leveys, sound familiar?
Shinbot /communist ,hah hah .i dont see your point comrade connolly ,you are two sides of the same outmoded coin so of course i use the terms interchagebly , if you can grasp that .??Anyway , Glad you can copy and paste ,showing some real skills there , then again that is your MO .
So you have “Chosen” not to have your own Pension. And somehow you think that is the fault of the Public Sector?
@Mick Jordan: no I decided long ago that whatever I earn, I mind. I will collect my state pension when the time comes, not a big fan of ps employees working all their life and getting a pittance of a pension, why have you not gone on strike for those members? allow gov number crunchers introduce a cap on pensions across the board while bringing up the pension of the less restored in the union?
oh wait, that’s not how this works is it.
@ciaran: You are one those one wining and crying about PS Pensions. I on the other hand am not. I have just shown that far from being Golden the average PS pension is no better than any Private Pension.
Ciaran I think i have a pension .. on my payslip I get deducted money for it. I read posts here and people tell me ill be loaded when i retire. Worked in the private sector for a few years and transfered that pension over so please god when im 60, Which is a few years away still ill find out for sure !!!
To purchase a public sector pension in the private sector would cost over €1m euros. Who do the recipients think pays for this pension? Answer, the private sector to the tune of €1bn euro per year and increasing. The day the public sector begin funding my wages and my pension is the day I turn a blind eye to ridiculous 16.5% pay demands. We owe €200bn. Gold plated pensions, increments, early retirement, lump sum payments, non-sackable, hundreds of allowances, demands for overtime for 15m per day handovers. Hard old life!
Sean. According to you the actual €156,000 (over an average of 12 years if I live to the average age of an Irish male) would cost over €1 Million in the Private Sector. So it jumps 650% in value. That’s some inflation. Or do you think that Public Servants live until they are 140 years old?
But Mick what about the vast majority who receive their salary and 1.5 times as a lump sum. If you retire at 55 and live until 80 that’s about 850K for starters. Now add on indexation and you are 1m+. Now don’t forget nepotism and the unjust promotions just before retirement, happens in every area of public sector to boost the nest egg. Whats the average contribution from the employee, 6-6.5%. Lets say average pay over 30 years is 40K. So the employee about contributes 78K and then gets about €1m in return. Wow!!! Taxpayer is paying €900K per employee.
Sean you certainly know your stuff. So why dont you join us on the dark side ? Unless your a drug dealer and you deal in cash ? Or your longterm unemployed and sign on ? What about the tax the public sector workers pay ? Who gets that ? My USC ? My pension levy ? Who gets that money ? When I was a kid leaving school I got a trade and worked. The country went boom then bust and I had no work. So I applied to the public sector and got a job. Ill retire at 60 there is no overtime in my job and my allowances make my wages respectful. My basic isnt great but its a job !
@Sean @114: Thats the thing to get my full 30 year pensionI cant retire at 55 as much as I would love to. And as for the lump sum we contribute to that as well. But then you would know this if you were a Public Servant.
@Sean @114:And as for Nepotism I have no family members working in the Public Sector and all promotions are done through an independent promotions board and are based on experience and suitability. Unless you have direct proof to the contrary? And again where does one get the figure of €1 million from. If that were the case Public Service pension payments would run into the 10′s of Billions of Euro each year which is quite clearly not the case.
Oh but Mick how much do you contribute towards the €1m that you will draw down? Why should other sectors pay for your guaranteed pension? Will you pay for mine? I doubt it. Imagine if you had joined up at 20 Mick. Full working life complete by 50, lump sum to travel the world nice guaranteed annual pension to live the rest of your 30 years or so. Derek yes I know a bit and have seen enough in my dealings in my own job with PS to know that the unions and members there are very well off indeed. There is no political will to reform it as the politicians are public servants too.
Sean why dont you join the ps then honestly ? What I dont get is why you have such a chip on your shoulders about it ? If your son/daughter became a guarda would you want them to have the best possible life ? When I retire ill be mortgage free and my lump sum will be used to see the world with my wife. I work on a 24/7 shift basis and wouldnt be at home as much as I would like. Have I not earned that working in a prison for 30 years?
@Sean @114: I have asked you repeatedly where you are getting the €1 million from.
Currently there are around 120,000 people working the Public Service and we can assume that around 10,000 people presently retired getting a PS pension. So using Your estimation that each pension is costing the Government €1 million per retiree over their life time of 12 to 14 years (average life expectancy after retirement) is currently costing the Government €10 Billion and if everyone currently working retires it wold reach €120 Billion. Now even the Government aren’t making that claim but yet you continue to do so.
Isn’t it great that all these public sector workers can go on strike and negotiate pay increases while us eijits in the private sector have to fund it without a mention of a pay increase
Alan b stop complaining come over and join
The lesson is clear Alan b. Join a union and fight or you’ll be walked on. The working class who depends on the goodwill of capital or the government’s which serve big capital will be mercilessly exploited.
Ah Alan I wish but I’ve no relations or pull to get me into the public sector
Spot on Alan B, the good old public sector-where everyone who joins has an uncle, aunt, brother or father in the job already. Nepotism at its finest, disgusting really!
And a job for life no matter how incompetent you are
I had no relations in the Public Sector nor did I know anyone in it when I joined. So why don’t you try instead of whinging. Gardai are going to be recruiting more as are the Prison Service and their is always a shortage of Nurses their is also the Fire Service, the Military or if you don’t fancy working in uniform you could try for a clerical post. All are advertised in PublicJobs.ie
@Mick Jordan: Me neither Mick. Any competitions or hiring campaigns I’ve come across are strictly merit based, with instant disqualification for canvassing of any description. Candidates are issued a number instead of using their name, and interview stage panels are usually a mix of public and private sector interviewers.
You’re talking through your hats lads.
I will take it that those doing the Red Thumbing don’t like the idea of working in the Public Service but would rather sit and whinge about those that have joined.
Billy ,you are talking through your A… as usual ,what keeps this economy is the blood ,sweat and tears of small businesses located in every corner of Ireland if you open your eyes and mindset you might be able to spot them.
If you staying living in the past and not able to modernise you deserve to be sitting on the aforementioned .
The private sector are fed up of carrying wasters on their back with their fat salaries and 30% extra in pensions .
The guards have lit the fuse to have a return of the Troika and this is what you lot AAAAAAA….pray for .
Mick I’ve dealt with plenty of public sector organisations through private contracting unfortunately. For the most part they are incompetent, hate change, and I heard talk every day of other family members working within the organisations. I would never want to work in such environments full time where change is detested and resisted and half the employees are deadwood.
Mick are you saying incompetent people are let go from the public sector?
@ReChew A.: The working class is not asking for your permission to fight. They’re organizing and taking a greater share of the wealth which they have created. Get used to it.
Exactly Mick. I joined all by myself 11 years ago. No nepotism involved. I am fed up to the back teeth of being attacked by the private sector because I am supposedly privileged because of it. I work damn hard with little reward. But I just get on with it. If it’s such a great sector to work in, come and join and stop this whinging for good.
And that is your choice Paul. But don’t whinge and cry about those that have chosen to work in the Public Sector. It was the Government that made the deal with the Unions that FEMPI would be a “Temporary Measure” 8 years ago. What time lenght would you regard as Temporary, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, Indefinitely? It was the Government themselves that stated that the country was in recovery. As such there is no longer a State of Emergency, ergo they now must live up to their side of the deal.
In 2008 I was cut €400 a month off my wages and have had no increases since. My work load trebled and I was told I was lucky to have a job by everyone else. Eight years later and I have had no wage increase in that time and as a single mother I really could use it with rent going sky high (don’t earn enough to get a mortgage on my own). I still know the country can’t afford it. But don’t you dare look down your nose at public sector workers. We pay your wages too.
Alan. Yes they are. But they are entitled to due process first. It wasn’t the the Public Service workers that put the rules for that process in place, that was done by the Government and the Dail.
@ Alan b Don’t know what you are on about here ? It’s hard work and dedication to your job that keep these workers in their jobs I know because I was there for 36 years before I’ll health took me out of it. You are probably reading the negative side of the Journal.ie. The best proof is to go and experience the work these workers do in all weathers and you will change your mind .
Its the same thing. Pandering to the demands of the powerful few and the many are left with the unafordable tab. There should be no pay restoration yet and any spare money should be used for services that were slashed. That would benefit everyon
Paul. Whom do you think provide those slashed services? The elves?
Very well said Deborah I 100%agree with you . The private sector here think they are the only ones to have suffered in the crash Ibec brain washing the Government in the past
Alan b. Public sector workers pay the same rate tax, prsi and USC as private? If you are so p*ssed off why don’t you apply for a job in the sector!
What in the world does that have to do with anything? You have not even made a point Mick. Workers who are already adequately renumerated provide the services. What was the point you were attempting to make?
Alan b I work in the public sector, I took a 15 grand pay cut to go there from the private sector, and I still have a mortgage and childcare. I have no relations there, I completed 5 exams and an interview. All jobs for clerical officer, executive officers and assistant officers are advertised, so anyone can apply!
I changed to the public sector because I want security and a family friendly job. Every department in civil service is different. If I stay at my current grade it will take 7 years to get back to what I earned in the private sector…now.
Paul. Who says they are “adequately renumerated” you? The Government? The Private Sector? Or is it those that provide those Services maybe?
@Paul be sure to make your point to your children’s teachers when you drop them off or the staff of the hospital you and your family could be relying on at the drop of a hat or the Gardai who will come immediately after you have called for assistance or the firemen and women who are putting out your fire! Yes we’re all just a bunch of free loading morans….until you need us. And we’ll be there.
Don’t know why it was ever called an agreement when if you didn’t agree as in the case of the ASTI it is forced on you regardless. Government renegaded on previous agreements if not signed up so The Lansdowne Road dictat would have been more fitting.
“forced on you” ….ah yes, perhaps we should let the teachers and the public sector workers set their own pay? what can go wrong…
Public sector needs to enter the real world and realize they are employees of the state, and a massive cost to the taxpayer.
Is that the real world where I pay €1450 a month rent and it’s about to go up again?
@Deborah Behan:
And do you think private sector workers have to pay different rent? They have to pay the rent, and then pay the tax to fund your salary also.
@Fred Johnson: What do you work at yourself fred?
@Deborah Behan: we all have bills Deborah which increase but we all do not have an employer with an open cheque book or willing to pay more instead of getting someone else, reality check!
Fred. Public Sector workers pay the exact same taxes you do and even some you don’t. Does that mean we work for nothing equaling the cost of those taxes?
Ah but sure Mick, don’t you know that we don’t pay any tax and our jobs involve sitting on a pile of gold with brandy and cigars laughing about the private sector and joking about taking cash directly out of their pockets, all while demanding they pay us more. Multiply this by 30/40 years and we’ll retire on our massive lump sums and monthly payments, none of which we’ve paid a penny into, and jet off to some fabulous island where we’ll live out our years in luxury, paid for by “the taxpayer”. Sometimes I honestly think that this image is what private sector employees conjure up in their imaginations when they think of public sector employees.
Maria. That is exactly the image they have been fed over the years. During the Tiger Years nobody gave a crap about the Public Service. I joined just be before the Celtic Tiger began and I remember just how difficult it was to recruit staff in during the boom years. Nobody wanted to know. Then the crash and it was all our fault. The propaganda started by IBEC etc to cover the fact that the boom was created, fed and crashed by their members.
@Maria Hickey-Fagan: “Sometimes I honestly think that this image is what private sector employees conjure up in their imaginations when they think of public sector employees.”
Only while the country is recovering from a crash. During the boom times many in the private sector looked down their noses at the public sector with contempt.
Yes! Instead we should just pay everyone whatever they ask for, and cut out all this messing about in the middle.
They paid the banks whatever they asked for and passed the bill on to ordinary people.
@ Ben I would like torr mind you there’s lots of workers in all local Authority Councils who are out in all weathers doing a tough job on the bottom of the pay scale
I blame the government squarely for this again they wait to react instead of acting. All their talk of Ireland doing great and talking us up as the fastest growing economy was always going to end like this and we can’t afford it!!!!! Imagine if they had taken the bull by the horns and said we will work on a new pay restoration deal with the unions over the next year. They could have slowly brought everyone up together. Now it’s going to be ridiculous and we can’t afford it! I will not vote to strike but I will be in the minority.
That’s a bit harsh Paul. Ben is just a little misguided.
Replace it with the golden brick road agreement.
For all you complainers that the PS are overpaid and underworked, join our perfect world at http://www.publicjobs.ie or just turn up at your local Revenue office with a letter from your uncle who worked there up to 1997. We’ll get you set up.
Public sector workers are only about 20% of the workforce so why the government spend so much time on them is beyond me. Over payed and with a great pension. God we in this country are idiots
@Vincent: “God we in this country are idiots”
Agreed. Some of us can’t even spell ‘overpaid’.
Vincent. PublicJobs.ie if you think that it’s such a good gig.
The fact is every job has people who got their job due to someone they know, someone who is completely inept at their job etc. I left the private sector (which had high pay) due to nepotism, a corrupt board of directors and being landed with work because of colleagues laziness. I am in the public sector now, and while there is the some of the above at least I now have a pension and sick pay and a permanent job .
I am bored listening to people complain about the public sector, If you are “jealous” of public sector pay and pensions than apply to work in the public sector!
Nepotism and cronyism is rife within the public sector and as you said, you now have a permanent job with a pension and sick pay. Why would you work hard?
Yes, it should be replaced with an agreement or implementation which makes ‘real cuts’ to public sector wage splurging. The greatest spend during the Bertie Boom was public sector wages via the infamous benchmarking, leaving our lads and ladies some of the best paid in the western world. The trouble is you have public servants, Politicians, divvying out hard earned taxes from the private sector to other Public Servants and both of them are cocooned from the real world of economics where a person can ultimately loose their job which cannot happen to them no matter how badly they perform. The cry from the Public servants ‘why don’t you join the public service yourself?’ sums it all up…firstly there has been an embargo on recruitment there for years but o.k. maybe they didn’t notice that! but secondly and more importantly it indicates their lack of any grasp of reality…so we should all join the public service…but then who is going to pay for it???…it’s like the ‘let them eat cake’ reply to the starving French peasants. Public Sector pensions are a damming indictment of any call for pay rises in the public sector or even for the very effective usefulness of the sector at at all.
And during the recession, even when the Politicians realised the thousands of Public Sector wage ‘Perks’ were an embarrassment, they investigated cutting them back, result, they removed one, and then later, replaced it? we mustn’t forget in this week when the Garda got a number of new allowances…one for having to listen to their morning briefing!, another for Parading??? and yet another €15 a day holiday boost up??? that they already have allowances for such items as boots…how often do you see Garda on the streets these days? and then another for wearing plainclothes ‘so as not to stand out’…surely they have their own plainclothes like the rest of the population?
Winston. You are whinger in chief on here. I have asked you on several occasions why if you think the Public Sector have it so good you haven’t joined. And all I got each and every time were excuses and obfuscation. So go to PublicJobs.ie and pick one of the jobs available.
The Journal has kindly supplied us with a list of these allowances department by department…including the ‘Key Holder Allowance’ very stressful task that, but of course the whole purpose of these euphemistic titles is they circumnavigated some pay restraint or other at the time or were used to satisy some particular group who felt the others had their snouts in the public finance trough deeper than they did.
http://www.thejournal.ie/public-service-allowances-see-all-the-figures-for-yourself-509646-Jul2012/
Article is over 4 years old. Relevance?
I am very glad to see the workers in the Public Setor standing up from themselves against some of the liars and spoofers here on the Journal
@Alan Scott: They’re not even very goo d at it Al. Their knowledge of the public sector is basically stereotypical ignorance I’ve only really come across from college kids who look down their noses at public servants.
Winston, can you point to where the 16% taken from me was replaced? I need to follow up with my salaries section.
Fg will sell their mothers to stay in government.nows the time,or another can will be kicked down the Rd.or will the gda now stand with other unions,and refuse the deal on offer in return for equality for all unions.
And you are Mick? chief spokesperson for the public sector?…Omertà seems to be rule when it comes to Perks in the sector including the ‘Gold Plated’ Pensions the vast majority of the 80% of us private sector peasants could never afford.
So Winston you would call €250 per week a Golden Pension because that is what I will get from 30 years of payments into my work related pension added to that I will get €230 per week from my State Contributory Old Age Pension which I have also being paying into since I left school and began working. So as I have said before and challenge your here once again to join the Public Service and see how well paid you are and what type of Golden Pension you get.
That pension isn’t free. I’ve been paying for mine since the 80s and tax and PRSI that isn’t worth a curse to me and USC and a pension levy. What are you paying, or do you expect the government to pay you til you die?
Mick…maybe I’m wrong it’s not Omertà but just absolute self delusion. Public Servants pay for a fraction of the cost of the pensions they will recieve and you know it. The price to buy such a pension privately has been put at hundreds of thousands of Euros. You simply cannot defend it and the sooner you guys just put your hand up and say ‘fair enough we do get a great pension package’ the sooner the public will listen, taking this into account, to your other complaints.
http://www.thejournal.ie/public-sector-wage-higher-300-than-private-sector-1637290-Aug2014/
Winston so 7% of Gross wage for 30 years to get €250 per week before tax deductions for an average 12 years (life expectancy for an Irish male is 78) is a fraction of what we pay? It is not us that are deluded.
@winston smith:
‘While pay for both sectors have risen, the private sector is rising more rapidly, with a 2.3pc year-on-year growth compared to 0.2pc for the public sector, when semi-state bodies are excluded.
With the economy now recovering strongly, in fact even surpassing expectations, and unemployment consistently falling, analysts believe wage growth has returned.’
Seems quite clear that wages will have to increase to keep in line with the inflation if nothing else.
Thats a pension pot of between 400-500k. Costs do fluctuate of course. Its guaranteed. Paid out by taxpayers instead of being invested on your behalf. Your PRSI contribs of today are good value in terms of pension. Assume lump dim as well? And 30 years leaves tine for another job? The days of guaranteed pensions are coming to an end. Is yours that bad Mick?
lavbeer. I don’t know where your math comes from but €250 per week over a 12 year period comes to €156,000. And that is before the Government take their tax from it. So at let’s say 20% tax rate that leaves a pension pot of €125,800 for 30 years of contributions. The State Contributory Pension which everyone that has paid into while working and is entitled to cannot be included in your sums. So this Gold Plated pension you speak of is non existent. It is just a plain old work place pension with not a sparkle of Golden or even Silver in sight.
Mick. You said 12 years. You may live longer but afaik I will need to buy sn annuity when i retire. To get 13k a year I will need about 450k and I am subject to market forces. Many approaching retirement lost alot. You are not carrying that risk. DB -v-DC. DBs are dying out in private sector so the taxpayer can’t fund a public sector one forever. Changes are afoot. Mandatory contributions for all will be required. Monies by law ehich cannit be used to bailout banks (who in some cases bailed out their own pension).
Perfectly correct. Most private funds have tumbled in recent years. There is no guaranteed pension, no lump sum, no early retirement option. Private funds have been subject to a pension levy on the invested fund, no tax relief for the past number of years. One is gold plated, subsidised by the exchequer, one is lead paid for by the recipient. Chalk and cheese. Public sector pensions are the reason why Aer Lingus and eircom were in financial crises and why banks have moved to DC or blended. They are completely unsustainable.
@lavbeer:I may live longer or I may live less. I am using the average age and life expectancy of an Irish male. Again I can’t see how you are getting €450,000 over 12 years on €13,000. But let me ask you how long have you been paying into your Pension fund? Would it around 30 years?
@Sean @114: I will ask you the same question I have asked others on here. If the Public Service pension is so Gold Plated why haven’t you joined the Public Service so you too can avail of this great pension?
17000 applying for 600 places in the gardai Mick. I’ve a better chance of winning the lottery. Everyone wants some of the garda gold though obviously. The job is so poorly rewarded that new posts are oversubscribed by 28 to 1!!
@Sean @114: You dont know unless you try but the Gardai are not the only Public Service Jobs going Publicjobs.ie is chock full of Public Service Jobs you could apply for anyone of them.
It’s bare most of the time Mick. Too many employees in the PS. Most jobs are abroad. Trust me I’ve been checking.
@Sean @114: Excuse after excuse. Today alone there are numerous Jobs available.
No excuses Mick. Will you pay my wages and then pension when I retire at 55 please? Oh and if I make outrageous pay demands while I hold the country to ransom you won’t mind taking another point on your tax for that will you?
@Mick Jordan: Try buying your pension in the unprotected world – that is how it is calculated. So consider the Garda retiring in early 50s – likely to live longer than he worked. That is wrong. And the taxpayer is funding it.
My setuo: I am like a government minister. I have more than 1 of them !!! Mind you I worked them all at different times and will have to wait to collect. My first one when I left 3rd level was a DB pension. Left company after 10-ish years and left pension there (too lazy to move it – wasn’t on my radar). The second was a DC but much better salary. The value on retirement of the DB is twice that of the latter. The fund may go to the wall and I might loose everything. That’s risk you don’t have. Timewise not quite 30 but will be 40-42 by the time I stop working I expect.
Think also that to buy the non-contrib pension would be about 400k also. And the fact that people who took time out for family etc and broke the contributions get pro-rata whilst he who never worked gets the lot plus other benefits.
@Sean @114: I had a look at publicjobs.ie and before I knew it I was looking at a job in Dhaka.
@Sean @114:So you are not prepared to take a pay cut to join the Public Service is what you are saying. But yet according to you were are on such great pay and benefits.
@lavbeer: And how much will you collect from your pensions. I know exactly what I will get €250 per week from my work contributory pension.
@Mick Jordan: Less than 250 at the minute but I have possibility of growth (and of loss I suppose) and time. That’s one of the DC issues – you don’t know. Typically when young invest in equities as if the fall they can be retrieved over time. Move to Bonds as retirement nears – less risk but less growth. I know nothing about this but fund managers take their slice.
Lavbeer. You have choices in the pension market. You can choose High, Moderate or Low risk funds. You can just like many in the Public Sector do avail of AVC’s as a top up to their pension. Their is plenty of choices you can make. Or alternatively you can join the Public Service and avail of that Pension. But I am guessing you will prefer to sit and cry woe is me, and moan about Public Servants.
I am not crying at all Mick. I merely pointed out the difference the public services tyle of pension and what most in the real world. Pity you reverted to the school yard level and are unable to appreciate the golden olate asoecr to your pension. Giod luck.
We should firstly go back and look at the McCarty report 2009 or an bord snip nua. We also have the option off reducing number within the civil service. Entire layers of managers who are doing nothing but sitting around awaiting for golden handshakes and pension. Were is it written that no one in the civil service can be shown the door or that every group no matter now unimportant can hold our country to ransom. We reduced the number of councillors because they would not execpt pay reductions, even though FF are now talking about going reversing this and paying them more. The McCarthy report outlined how 17,300 civil servants could be sacked and that was 2009. We also could reduce quangos and reduce costs in software licences, office space and staff doing the same job in countless agencies. But of course the civil service unions won, staff levels were not reduced. Staff took pay cuts and in most cases new appointments were shoulders with reduced pay that current employees would not take. FG and liebour choose the current course as a short term solution to win an election. We now either pay everyone more or reduce numbers especially at the top and pay lower pay workers any increases. Simples
So should the crippling banksters gambling debts .. our governments know this yet they’d rather appeal apples tax than fight for the Irish people you know your country is governed by corporations when you see this carry on
Sure, why not
Whats needed is clear and comprehensive clarity to each of the companies that work or should i say are paid by the Government .
f
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