“Investigation”
If they investigate then they should persecute. Not another report just to tell us in more detail what’s already known. If there are over 800 bodies then there needs to be answers. Not information. Somebody is responsible and needs to be accountable. Each time something like this cones out the state apologises. The church was responsible here and they need to face up to these crimes because that’s what they are. There are human beings buried in an under ground tank !! Yet the church will stand back in arrogance and say nothing and answer nobody AGAIN !!

Persecute? Don’t worry that’s gonna happen… But if your autocorrect amended “prosecute” then that probably won’t.

Very true Kevin

#justice

You would wonder how these so called Christian nuns lived with themselves after what they did /or saw in these Homes, Industrial Schools and Laundries and didn’t do what their Catholic & human rights beliefs would have been; teachings and you would hope/think their moral fiber told them to do, but didn’nt??? God Almight Why????

And, a church that is supposed to be looking after the needy; how it is allowed its employees to persistently behave in this way over many generations, it beggars belief, it really does.?
In any other employment workplace, these people would have been out on their ear, but the RCC protected such people, why??? They are essentially only empolyees………..

To the 795 innocents RIP, that we know of so far, you are not forgotten and never either I am sure by your mothers, such anguish, hardship and pain they went through………….what about the fathers? ??
Hopefully, the truth will finally come out, TG my grannie isnt alive to witness what the RCC has become, a church she so believed and had such faith in..

If those responsible for the abuse and neglect of children really believed in the god that they profess to serve – there’s no way they could do this..
Of course, that is – if they didn’t go to confession and say their rosary as penance..

Neat little loophole that..

Christianity ended when the roman emperor Constantine declared it to be an official religion of Rome, after that it became about wealth and power. Of course there were a few individuals who were notable exceptions, but they were indeed few and far between. The teaching of the Christ were and are, still being largely ignored, by the church.
Also, somewhere along the way, the celibate men of the cloth became obsessed with sexuality. Go figure.

Interesting how he didn’t bother to call for anything 2 years ago when he was told about it then, aside from a low key mention at McGill summer school.

My mother had me at the tender age of 16. Luckily, our family rejected outside pressure and took me under their protective wing and wouldn’t let the church near us. Without going into detail, and despite obvious hardships at the time, my mam was a fighter and we’ve lived very happy lives since. But the anger I feel at what might have been, had my family not been so headstrong, so protective, so loving. What could have happened to us? Every family in this country should be up in arms over this, the latest in a long line of revelations. These events happened too recently for us to dismiss it as history. Criminal investigations need to be held. The church needs to answer and pay for its crimes. And people on this forum who have attacked me before for my atheist views can now see why I hold them. We do not need a church to tell us how to be good people, good people…just are. I can never express exactly how much respect I have for my grandparents, aunts and uncles and cousins. Sorry for the rant, but these articles bring me to tears for those babies who weren’t as lucky as I was.

I should also say, how much respect I have for my mam and dad. Unmarried at the time, blissfully married now, and have shown me what it takes to be the best person i can be and never care about anyone who judges me. Its a lesson every child should learn, but in a different way to us. Justice will never be served legally, I know that, but at least communally, the change of attitudes in the populace is something I find satisfaction in.

Well said!

I think thats what haunts me most.

Families complicit with what happened to their daughters and grandchildren. They knew what went on in those intuitions.

This was going on till 1996. Not even 20 years ago.

While I agree that Constantine changed it all to suit himself (he even used his own Image as the Jesus you see now) we can never know the teachings of Jesus nor can we know if he actually existed. Some think he was created by Constantine based on a few older gods (Mithra, Zeus and Krishna). I reckon if any of the hierarchy of that church really believed any of it they would be doing much more to stop the disgusting behavior of it’s members.

That’s the bit I don’t get.. If I have ever harmed someone, even by accident – I have asked them what I can do to make amends. Not because of fear of hell, because my conscience wouldn’t let me forget.

How can these people claim a moral authority when it appears they don’t even have consciences?

But law is NOT Justice and there is a massive difference as we know in Eire.

Justice must be Seen, To be done.

If ever proof was needed that we are not under the guidence of any compassionate or loving deity, here it is and therefore those who profess to speak on its behalf or act upon its desires should be taken aside and told to have sex and leave!

It defies words. I’m lost here. How could people of the church and those of the state responsible for its citizens do such things to children. Time to strip the church if it’s tax status and make it pay compensation to the families of those affected. But that would be such a smAll price for the depravity this so called church. And what’s frightening us the organisations that would take us back to the “teaching of the church”. GO AWAY YOU SICK fCUKS

Ain’t that the truth!

Here, here! I second that!

Oh for goodness sake grow up ! So much emotion; so little thought and even less knowledge and understanding. Yes the events described are shocking and appalling. Everyone would agree. Does saying so make everyone feel morally superior? It changes nothing. Yes illegitimate children were treated like shit. So were their mothers. And guess what … most of Irish society felt and behaved this way, including our own ancestral families in the main. Read our social history and get off your high horse. Third world poverty, rampant disease, undue respect for authority, control, sexual and class repression, endemic shame, overt religiosity and backwardness. We were the poorest and most disease ridden society in Western Europe. Fear was the dominant feature of the lives of many. Moral judgement and scapegoating was the order of the day. Ireland began to change in the 1960s but it was a terribly painful transition. But now we are “free” and have discovered it was all the fault of religion, specifically the Catholic Church. Partly true,of course but mainly a lie. Most of Irish society colluded. Yes. The toxic consequences of dire poverty, unreformed religion and anti-intellectualism. And one thing hasn’t changed. The rush to judgement. Moral superiority and finger pointing to deflect from our own evident foibles. And the refusal to look in the mirror. We are still so 1920s while dressed in a 21st century veneer. Grow up Ireland!

As an atheist and humanist I’m appalled by this. But it reflects not just on the church but on Irish society.
Until that is accounted for there Wil be no real investigation into this.

John R, you are correct in what you say. I couldn’t agree more with you.

@john r. That has to be the worst comment iv seen on the journal bar none, you blabber on for far to long about nothing other than what seems to be criticizing other people for expressing horror sadness and grief about hundreds and possibly thousands of dead children discarded in the most inhuman way claiming that they are only doing so to feel morally superior!! Your clearly the prize clown of your family!

As for your other comments in relation to Irish society being at blame for this travesty well the fact is Irish society was this way because of the guilt and fear that the church imposed on the people through its dominance and abuse if the people that it gained by taking advantage of them while suffering through rampant poverty and extreme hardship, it is you who needs to do the research, your opinionated but ignorant.

Also note there is no questions in this so no need for a reply, iv read all I need and want to read from you, go look for attention elsewhere, I’m a little dissapointed with myself for giving you this attention but someone had to say it. Your a sad fool.

Absolutely well said

J r, emotion is what drives us as human, it makes us tick. Saying grow up is fickle, we bond on emotion, are you defending what’s happened. We know our past and it’s not too distanced, but as human beings can we not be appalled at the atrocities of a group who proclaim love, peace and happiness to all, whilst doing the opposite?

John r. I know my history and I know it wasn’t the public who decided that these children should be institutionalised and then abused. It was the church and state and yes I am pointing fingers and judging. These people and their institutions should be brought to justice. Just because it was a long time ago does not negate the fact that those children deserve a voice to fight for them.

John Mitchell, know your history all you want. If you can’t interpret it you’re lost.

State, institutions…. Words like these translate to society. Ireland is not unique in cases like this. Society needs to accept this, not just a wing of scapegoats.

Hear! Hear!

Yes William. We can and should be appalled. My main point is that being appalled changes nothing and offers little insight into the period. Absolutely let’s have an investigation. What happened was shocking. However having an investigation which ignores the role of broader society will not help us to grow as a society and learn from the mistakes of our collective past.

Paddy, I was only a few months old at the end of this period now under investigation but I grew up in the 60s and 70s and remember the period well. I honestly don’t know if you have the same perspective or not. Ireland was a confessional State in my view well into the 1980s. It is not just Church and State/Government. Neither of theses could have behaved the way they did for such a long period of time without the enthusiastic endorsement or acquiescence of broader society. And that is precisely what. Is so sad about this period and so horrific. Many brave people took a stand and spoke out about the nature of our society and they were attacked and marginalised including by the broader public. More took no stand at all or supported the status quo. If we fail to see our own hand in this (or the hands of our parents and ancestors) then we cannot change as a society as we will have failed to learn. Saying it was all the fault of the Church/State may be a convenient narrative but we should avoid such a narrative and look at the truth of what happened. This does not prevent the relative apportionment of blame and responsibility. We should do what West Germany did post-war and examine our entire narrative since independence and lose the self loathing. Unfortunately this will be a profoundly uncomfortable experience which is why many wish to avoid it. Let us have the truth and the whole truth and let us stop editing our experiences for the sake of convenience.

I dunno John.. He’s kinda big into murder and abuse himself.

They need George Carlin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

Liam. How did you draw that conclusion? What age are you anyway? I assume you are new to reading.

What conclusion? Malnutrition means lack of nutrition…

Babies die of malnutrition when they aren’t being fed sufficiently. I have a baby of my own and when he cries he’s fed. These babies needs weren’t being tended to because their mothers were limited to the time they were allowed to spend with them during the day.

John watch the movie philomena. It gives a good insight into what it was like to live in one of these work houses for unmarried mothers.

John, you do know it was a movie? Not a documentary.

Does Greys Anatomy give an accurate depiction of a hospital? Or House? Or casualty?

Philomena reflected the experiences of the woman who was the subject matter, it’s far more authentic than any b.s. the catholic church has ever said.

John van diaper. Going to the limits of his limited knowledge to fudge all issues and defend the Catholic Church at any cost. Perhaps he one of those PR people we have heard talk about. So what’s the wage like fir defending the indefensible John?

Philomena, like all movies. Is made to sell tickets and make a profit.
I didn’t see it, by the way.
So by the nature if the industry, it must get attention.
Look, nobody doubts that these homes were grim, very grim.
But the accusations being thrown around here are really something.

@john. How many more horrible history’s do we need before we can all acknowledge that the Catholic Church should have nothing more to do with children under any circumstance. It truly is unforgivable.

Who is arguing that it should?

There are no accusations being thrown about John. Factually babies died of malnutrition when they shouldn’t have and you are delusional.

The taiges

There are no accusations being thrown about John. Factually babies died of malnutrition and mothers were being denied access to their children. Wake up you are delusional.

these so called ” nuns’ are dispectable and that puts it v,v, v mildly.
To the 795 known innocents, RIP.

To be fair to the RC church it wasn’t just them. Much the same happened to kids in the Bethany Home and I’m sure in other Protestant mother and baby homes. Both RC and Protestant homes should be investigated.

John, put your hands up, you’re being ridiculous now. Liam made a good point and explained it as you requested. Enough. XX

100% media person

And auswitz was a labour camp with a high death rate. See how ridiculous that sounds ?

So then please clarify that you were present in these homes and an actual legal bona fide witness.?

Otherwise your words mean nothing.

In the UK Christopher Booker has been blowing the whistle on the taking of thousands of children by the ‘authorities’ but he has been fighting an uphill battle as all involved close ranks just as we are seeing here in Ireland. The attempts to divert from the truth as seen in some of the comments right here suggests that the cover up will continue.I think we will soon witness the collapse of the façade that many well known people in public life here hide behind.

Hallie, it would have been suspected that people died here because of poverty on those days, some from abuses, etc. The whole thing is unacceptable really and the government had this report since 1974. Have no idea why they didn’t deal with it then as those people would be alive and can be arrested. Now they are all dead. It is wrong and should not be happening anywhere in the world. It would not surprise me if it happened in other countries but it should not at all.

This evil was not investigated because the usual threat was and still is used “Maybe it would be better for your career/family/ business/etc. if you said no more about the matter”

Ava, if we’ve learned anything in recent decades it’s that the RCC will do anything to protect themselves. Remember victims of sexual abuse being threatened and sworn to secrecy?

We know that there were plenty of whistle-blowers, including Fr Flanagan, but they were tilting at windmills against the might of the church. It is complete hypocrisy of Diarmuid Martin to turn around now and say that they didn’t exist, but should have existed and stopped the catholic orders from doing what they did.

Now. Let’s try and put ourselves back then..
The Catholic Church has a strong hold over people, that hold is strong enough to turn parents against their own daughters in their time of need and send them away to “atone for their sins” with the nuns.

Who knew everyone’s darkest secrets? Who was trusted with all the worst things you had done?
We often hear of how Scientology keep a record of all your darkest secrets to be used against you if you speak ill of their church – I wonder where they got that idea from?

Are we to believe that the nuns and the priests didn’t have good working relationships and a mutual interest in protecting their church?

We know those coming forward about clerical abuse were threatened – is it such a leap to consider that those who may have tried to take action would not have suffered a worse fate given that back then the church held considerably more power than it did when the abuse scandal came to light?

Typical man of god, always blame someone else.

Its been EVE ILL EVE now for 5,000 years.

In rape cases- its all her fault.

In DV cases, it all her fault.

Nothing has really changed as anyone who frequents the secret family courts where it all hidden in the same was as years ago.

You have got to remember a lot of these women were victims of incest and rape!! My sister knew a woman who was in one of these homes whilst she gave birth and one nun in particular was telling her about some of the tragic stories. The nun said too many of these women were raped by their fathers or other family members…

I don’t know about that. There was a family I grew up with. The dad had two brothers both of whom managed to get girls pregnant. Both brothers denied their kids and the respective women went into the mother &baby homes to have their children. Funny thing though, no woman ever went near either of those men. They died bachelors. There were similar stories around from other parishes where men had done the same thing. S maybe justice was served in a way?

As long as we point at the church we will never get to the truth of this.
This is a societal issue. To point only at the church is to avoid looking in the mirror.

It’s not in any way acceptable in today’s standards but was it at some time something that Irish society knew of and turned a blind eye to?
It looms that way.
Btw I’m very much anti religious. I just think this is broader than religious institutions.

@Grogan – did you pursue it when you turned 18?

If not you are a total hypocrite based on your comments here.

@Ross, as Mrs Brown put it ..dats naice

Ross, what does, “did you pursue it” mean?

You make light of a very serious situation John. No smiley face this time though. If you were not so sincere in your delusion I would think you were a troll.

Charlie. I’m not making light if it. I’m simply asking why is this particular site all of a sudden so important. There are many more sites equally worthy if I section.
But to what end?

Of inspection….
All I’m asking is why is this site more important that the 1000s of more recent murders in the North?
Or any of the 1000s of paupers graves in Ireland
What makes this one so special?
Do we go back to 1920? 1820? When would be a good time to stop.
My argument has nothing to do with the Catholic Church .

Yes John but there are ongoing investigations into the murders in the North. The paupers graves date back hundreds of years to pre-famine times. This situation that has come to light is still in living memory of people in Ireland. There are people alive who remember these places and the conditions in which the children lived and died. It is living history. That’s what makes it relevant.

@ William I’d say the bad people were the nuns only back then they were regarded as powerful women and not women who could have proper relationships. They then took out their frustrations on the vulnerable. When I was a kid in the fifties I thought there were men women and nuns! The longer I live the more I believe I was right!

There would likely still be women alive who were in that home. Perhaps some whose children died.
As has been pointed out there ARE investigations into what went on in the North, sure wasn’t Gerry Adams being questioned over Jean McConville there right before the elections? And there are numerous reports that have been conducted over the years.

Why is it you are so eager for this part of our past to be forgotten about?

Why didn’t they deal with it in 1974..

Are you for real? Do you think anyone would have had the guts to go up against the church back then? You seem to be forgetting the power they held over our nation.. Even when the abuse scandals broke they threatened the victims – and that was after their power had begun to wane. Those threats would have been far more scary in the 70s, y’know – back when they wouldn’t even allow contraceptives to be sold because of the churches stance on it.

@Shanti

What evidence is there that the Church threatened abuse victims even when the abuse scandals broke?

A UN report among other things Ciaran.
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/fileadmin/user_upload/File_Versione_originale/Rapporto_Onu_su_Vaticano.pdf

” 60. The Committee expresses serious concern that in dealing with child victims of different forms of abuse, the Holy See has systematically placed preservation of the reputation of the Church and the alleged offender over the protection of child victims. The Committee is particularly concerned that while the Holy See recognized in its written responses and during the interactive dialogue the primary competence of judicial authorities, it has continued to address these cases through Canon Law proceedings which contain no provision for the protection, support, rehabilitation and compensation of child victims. The Committee is also particularly concerned that:

(a) Child victims and their families have often been blamed by religious authorities, discredited and discouraged from pursuing their complaints and in some instances humiliated, as noted especially by the Grand Jury in Westchester, the Ryan Commission in Ireland and the Winter Commission in Canada;

(b) Confidentiality has been imposed on child victims and their families as a precondition of financial compensation; and

(c) Although it has extended its own statute of limitations, the Holy See has in some instances obstructed efforts in certain countries to extend the statute of limitation for child sexual abuse.”

@Shanti

A report from the organisation that failed to prevent the Rwandan Genocide? Yeah, right.

Ok then, the cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.. Notice they mentioned the Ryan report, what’s your reason for disregarding that?
They didn’t prevent the famine?

@jamie dwyer

In 2010, the Minister for Health said that the Government had no evidence that any child had contracted a serious illness as a result of the trials. If children had died as a result of the vaccine trials we’d know about it. Therefore, the trials were much less serious than what Dr Mengele did.

Ciaran, genuine question here – are you able to admit that the church have been involved in shady dealings and went to great lengths to cover these transgressions up?

Because one would get the impression from your comments that you are of the opinion that all of these atrocities are made up.. Even when faced with official documents you deny their content.

I’m wondering are you in denial or just a really devout apologist.

@Shanti

I’m not denying that the Church covered up child sexual abuse and moved paedophile clerics around and regarded unmarried mothers with contempt. My point with regard to the vaccine trials is that they are not serious as some people have portrayed them to be.

Right, because the nuns gave the ok, you reckon it was fine.
Any other trial they would need parental consent – were there other kids registered in clinical trials? Ones who hadn’t gone through these institutions?
Because a lot of these children were taken from their mothers, not surrendered.

Do you not see those kids as worthy of the same respect of other kids? Do you not disagree with the thinking that allowed these nuns to rationalise their maltreatment of them?
And please don’t give me the whole “it was a different time” spiel, it’s getting old. Either you love one another as Jesus loved you or you have no business calling yourself Christian.

@Shanti

The vaccine trials were wrong but they were not criminal offences because they did not cause death or injury to the children. Therefore, they are less serious than what Dr Mengele did.

Very funny. Ciaran, “much less serious than what. Dr Mengele did”?!? That’s a fine standard for us to adopt in relation to child welfare.

@Sheik Yahbouti

Name one case in which the vaccine trials in Ireland caused death or injury to a child. Go on!

Right, so because worse has happened that makes this ok?
And the fact that there is no evidence is part of the problem. There’s supposed to be records kept and to the best of my knowledge the disappearance of these records is the cause for concern.

@Shanti

The fact that there’s no evidence means that the doctors and nuns who were involved are entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. That is how our legal system works. Ireland doesn’t do show trials.

Don’t the religious orders know it.. Interesting how many of their records vanished isn’t it? Isn’t that the reason given for the incomplete nature of the MacAleese report? And goodness knows what else..

@Shanti

The senior nuns who ran these places are deceased anyway.

The Germans and Israelis are still hunting down concentration camp gaurds and anyone associated with these atrocities,even though they are in their mid 90s by now. We applaud them for this ,so why should our version of the Vatican death camp gaurds be let off because they are old now??
Willful neglect leading to manslaughter or infantcide has no statute of limitations.

Thanks for pointing that out.

@AhhhMeBollix

You’re welcome.

No confusion though really- both are the dark priests of the same death cult and wear the garb to let you know that you before the court are dead to the sea. Barristers are of course the soul reapers. etc.

Bot fit together as they always did.