Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
WITH FRONTLINE MEDICAL professionals considering their options after the government’s pay deal with gardaí, high-profile nursing union leader Liam Doran appeared on Claire Byrne Live earlier this week.
The General Secretary of the INMO (Irish Nurses and Midwives’ Organisation) firmly defended his members’ record over the past decade or so, in a robust exchange with John Moran, former Secretary General of the Department of Finance.
Doran made a series of factual claims about the number of patients on trolleys, the number of hospital admissions, and nurses’ pay, over the past several years.
We’ve done a FactCheck roundup of five of his claims, and will be giving each a verdict, before tallying them at the end. For an explanation of what each verdict means, check out our Reader’s Guide.
(Send your FactCheck requests to factcheck@thejournal.ie, tweet @TJ_FactCheck, or send us a DM).
What was said:
You can watch an excerpt of Liam Doran’s claims in the video below, or watch the episode in full, here.
Claim 1: The previous government cut the number of nurses and midwives by 13.5%
Verdict: FALSE
Your policies, when you were in high office, cut the workforce by 13.5%.
A couple of notes here. John Moran was Secretary General of the Department of Finance from March 2011 until August 2014.
However, it’s unclear whether Doran’s claims are directed toward John Moran personally, or against the previous Fine Gael/Labour government as a whole.
FactCheck attempted to clarify this with Liam Doran, but did not receive a response to that particular question.
In response to FactCheck’s request for evidence, Liam Doran claimed that between 2008 and 2016, the number of nurses and midwives has fallen from 39,000 (in 2008) to 35,250 now.
According to HSE data, the most recent figure for nurses and midwives in the public health service is 35,534, as of September (pg 12).
(Note: all these staffing figures refer to WTE – “whole time equivalent” staff).
Doran did not specify which months he was referring to, but for the sake of fair comparison, let’s take the same month (September) in 2008 (pg 104).
The number of nurses and midwives then was 37,898. That’s a decline of 6.2%.
However, Doran’s claim is inconsistent with his evidence, since the claim was levelled at the government John Moran served, which only took office in 2011.
In September 2011, the number of nurses and midwives was 35,993 (pg 19), which means there has been a fall of 1.3% since then.
The number of nurses and midwives since 2008 and 2011 has fallen. But not nearly to the extent claimed by Liam Doran (13.5%). So the claim is FALSE whatever way you look at it.
As explained in our Reader’s Guide, this means “The claim is inaccurate”.
Taking into account the fact that, on Claire Byrne Live, Doran addressed the claim to the previous government (which started in March 2011 and ended in February 2016), the claim is also FALSE.
This is because, the number of nurses and midwives in March 2011 was 36,782 (pg 19), and in February 2016 it was 35,845 (pg 83). That’s a decline of 2.6%. Not 13.5%.
Claim 2: Activity levels in the health service are up by 5-6% per annum
Verdict: Half TRUE
The health service has gone up by 5-6% per annum in terms of activity levels.
In his response to FactCheck, Liam Doran clarified that by “activity levels” he was referring specifically to attendances at emergency departments in 2016.
(“The number of attendances at Emergency Departments has increased by 5.3% this year alone”).
This is just one very specific measure of activity in Irish hospitals, but let’s take a look at it.
So far this year (up to July), there have been 639,178 new emergency department attendances (pg 3). By July 2015, there had been 639,184 (pg 34).
Year-on-year, that’s actually a decrease of six attendances, or 0.001%.
If Doran was comparing July 2015 (91,593) with July 2016 (96,352 – pg 28), that’s an increase of 5.2%.
However, as the year-to-date figures show, one month’s attendances are often not representative of the broader trend in the year.
We rate this claim Half-TRUE. As our Reader’s Guide explains, this means:
“There are elements of truth in the claim, but also elements of falsehood. Or, the best available evidence is evenly weighted in support of, and against, the claim”.
Claim 3: The number of hospital admissions is now at its highest ever level
Verdict: Mostly TRUE
Highest number of admissions ever.
Unfortunately, and despite our request, Liam Doran did not offer specifics as to which kind of admissions he was referring to.
Unfortunately, HSE monthly performance reports only go back as far as 2009, so that’s our starting point, and certain admissions measures (like emergency admissions) were not counted in previous years, or are no longer counted.
The HSE also frequently introduces new accounting models and KPIs (“key performance indicators”), which makes HSE data notoriously difficult to compare across years.
Nonetheless, we’ve attempted to compare year-to-date figures for July 2016 (the most recent available) with year-to-date figures for July from previous years (unless otherwise stated).
The source in all cases is the HSE’s monthly performance reports.
(Note: we also analysed these numbers after adjusting for population, but it did not make a difference to the years in which various measures were higher or lower than this year).
So, in three out of five admissions categories, this year so far does have the highest numbers. And in another, it effectively has the joint-highest on record. We rate the claim Mostly TRUE.
As our Reader’s Guide explains, this means: “The claim is close to accurate, but is missing significant details or context. Or, the best available evidence weighs in favour of the claim”.
Claim 4: The previous government cut the pay of graduate nurses by 39%
Verdict: FALSE
You cut the pay of young graduate nurses by 39%.
Again, Doran’s claim was directed towards John Moran, in studio, but we are interpreting it as an allegation against the previous Fine Gael-Labour government, which Moran served.
And again, we must point out that Moran did not serve that government for its full duration, leaving in August 2014.
In his response, Liam Doran outlined the claim as follows:
Although, unfortunately, Doran did not provide further detail or sources, there are a couple of very obvious problems with this, which render the claim FALSE:
We rate the claim FALSE.
Claim 5: Between 2008 and 2016, the number of people on hospital trolleys has increased by 80%
Verdict: Mostly FALSE
Between 2008 and 2016, the number of people on trolleys has gone up by 80%.
In his response, Doran clarified that he was actually referring to 2007-2016, not 2008-2016. But let’s take a look at both periods, for the sake of completeness.
Doran presented figures for January-October 2007, as compared with January-October 2016, taken from the INMO’s Trolley and Ward count.
A crucial piece of information here is that the INMO only began counting the number of patients on wards (as well as trolleys) in March 2013.
So comparing figures from 2016 with 2007 or 2008 is misleading – they are not like-for-like numbers.
However, FactCheck went back through the data in 2016 so far to separate out the trolley count from the ward count. Here’s what we found (Spreadsheet download).
However, as we’ve explained, 2016 figures (which include both trolleys and wards) should not be compared directly with 2007 figures (which include only trolleys).
So the claim, as clarified in Liam Doran’s response, is Mostly FALSE.
As our Reader’s Guide explains, this means “There is an element of truth in the claim, but it is missing critical details or context”.
Even though he reasonably accurately cites the figure of 80% (in truth, 81.5%), this is based on an unfair comparison.
Looking at the claim as stated on Claire Byrne Live:
Of the five claims examined:
TheJournal.ie’s FactCheck is a signatory to the International Fact-Checking Network’s Code of Principles. You can read it here.
For information on how FactCheck works, what the verdicts mean, and how you can take part, check out our Reader’s Guide here.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Let it sink !! . Use the 123m to actually address the problems in the system and not for keeping all the bigwigs in the lifestyle they are accustomed too.
@Nucky: It cost just €800,000 to put a temporary treatment plant in Roscommon to lift the boil notices, but tool 2.5 years due to the dysfunctional monstrosity known as Irish water. Imagine what we could have done with the half BILLLION spent on useless water meters?
The water meters aren’t useless and have actually resulted in leaks being identified all over the country.
Throwing good money after bad ,sure it’s the Fine Gael way good governance my buttocks.
The second hand water meters that will have to be replaced in a few years, those ones?
@(((Jason))): “The water meters aren’t useless and have actually resulted in leaks being identified all over the country.”
Take a walk around any housing estate Jason, and see the number of meters leaking themselves, instead of regurgitating the IW soundbites.
Seriously Jason. When we were told 40% of water was leaking before metering. The main leaks are in trunk pipes. Would you try to fix your main problems first?
Just back from a walk ‘jamming’ and didn’t see any leaking meters in any of the 6 or 7 estates I passed through. Stop regurgitating your own lies.
The state they left outside my mother’s house is a disgrace. Shows you what cowboys they are.
@(((Jason))): So the people posting photos for the last 2 years of leaking meters, burst mains and damaged pathways on social media have been faking the photos have they?
‘Jamming’ you said go to any estate in the country to see leaking meters, I’ve just told you I’ve passed through half a dozen and haven’t seen any, nor never had.
@For Connolly:
If we start paying for our water in apportion to how much we use then there will be more direct money for infrastructure rebuilding….harder to t have shortfalls when you charge for the service you pipe to people.
FG really really fecked this up. The principal is sound as the old system of neglect (decades of it) wont cut it.It is the over spending costs and PR that is killing this utility.
@(((Jason))): Course you did Jason, seeing as though you’re throwing around the ‘lies’ thing.
Oh, here’s a snap I just took outside my neighbours house of one of those leaking meters that aren’t happening all over the place….
Jason their sell by date is fast approaching as they were bought second….they were one of the biggest wastes of money and time by the govt in recent yrs not to mention the cause of a lot of aggravation. Time to scrap the metering program and spend the money on infrastructure
Are you saying I didn’t walk through several estates ‘jambon’? Pop Down to Wexford and I’ll show you. Rough area where you live? People don’t interfere with workers doing their job and intimidate them where I’m from. If workers were allowed to do their job, maybe such ‘leaks’ wouldn’t exist.
Your link doesn’t work, surprise surprise.
@(((Jason))): “Your link doesn’t work, surprise surprise.”
Works fine for me.
Anyone else able to click/tap on my links below and bring up a photo of a leaking water meter?
@(((Jason))): “Are you saying I didn’t walk through several estates ‘jambon’? ”
I’m saying that it’s an amazing coincidence that the only time I’ve ever recommended you walk through an estate to see leaking meters, that you just so happen to be JUST back from doing JUST that, and also JUST happened to be keeping an eye out (in the dark?) for leaking water meters.
That’s spooky, isn’t it Jason?
You’re not the lad that writes endas tales for him, are you?
Yep, it works.
Unlike Irish water
Little one will be here to help you out in a minute jambon, don’t forget to swop to the for connolly account before replying though.
And even if there is a leaking meter, it would be a statistical anomaly, how many fitted v how many leaking?
You’re great for the fake conspiracy theories, faux outrage and outright lies. Keep it up.
Jamming, I go walking every night. So no, it’s not ‘just’, plus my walk how is via many estates, so keep your conspiracy theories going… people walk down the country, exercise and that, you know? You’re truly an idiot of high proportions if you think i sit here making up stories, as you do, about going for a walk.
Even In the dark John, which it wasn’t between 6-7, we have street lights, plus if water was leaking, my shoes would be wet, wouldn’t they?
Everything you need to know about Jason in one post, boys and girls…….
“Little one will be here to help you out in a minute jambon, don’t forget to swop to the for connolly account before replying though. ”
followed two lines below with…..
“You’re great for the fake conspiracy theories…”
Cheers Jason, you’re a howl.
You haven’t even the courage to use your name. You’re a troll, a coward and a bully. Jog on now little cowardly boy.
Well I think my work here is done.
But I’m having so much fun!
One water meter was fitted to a row of 9 houses where I live in November 2015. Afterwards our water pressure dropped making our electric shower unuseable. It was the council who had to come and repair the damage in August, a 9 month ordeal which shouldn’t have happened in the first place. No faith in Irish waters customer service.
Ein, as far as I am aware anywhere meters went to try and encourage greater water conservation there was a noticeable change in the beginning and people just went back to their normal use. Usage is not the problem, poor infrastructure is. Where has all the money we already paid for water been spent? Who is account table?
@(((Jason))): Most of those leaks were created by the installation of those water meters….
So true
@jason I’ve a link for you ! Your brain and a pile of dog waste !
Personal insults, the last refuge of the illiterate and the stupid
You can show proof of the Kerry?
@(((Jason))): “Personal insults, the last refuge of the illiterate and the stupid”
Here’s you from 7 posts up…..
“You’re a troll, a coward and a bully.”
Jason you’re the gift that keeps on giving
Good lad
We need to stop funding Irish Water and divert the money saved into social housing.
Yea Jason ya tick !
That’s not insulting jamming/connolly/jambon/John Ennis- that’s facts. You should learn about what a fact is. You’re a proven troll. If you had one ounce of courage, you’d use your name. You’ve been banned from here for bullying and lying before, they’re the
facts John.
@(((Jason))): “You’ve been banned from here for bullying and lying before”
Are you referring to the ‘were jammin’ account which got blocked the same time that lots of the other regulars got blocked after making comments about the journal not posting details revealed by Catherine Murphy in the Dail about a certain person?
But, please, list the lies and bullying that got the account banned. Oh, and you’re straying into libel territory, so I’d make sure that you are correct in what you’re posting.
Is there ACTUALLY leaks ? And if so ? Who cares? One of the wettest countries in the world , water shortage me hole I’m not buying it
@(((Jason))):your obviously pressing the wrong button worked fine for me….
Works good for me, I can see leak
Jason how are you FG masters treating you? Still paying you to put their useless drivel on FB?
But but but but quango…
@Thommo’s Big Nose: Super Quango
@Frederick Higginbottom: hse style, aren’t we lucky with the calibre of cluster f//k politicians we have
Sink it
How can they be short. They have always taken it from our taxes’ and to help it along they use our car tax plus property tax that they took against our will.
So shove off and get the rest of the money from the banks.
Frankly, I’m surprised it isn’t even more than that
This is to keep the billing system supported. Since suspension of charges they were allowed to continue their worthless metering program. Coveney and Kenny have well declared their intention. FF and Michael need to step up to the plate now. Anyway 180 millio equates to 3 days support AIB were.given. Small change really
@lavbeer: Kenny and noonan have to allow ff wriggle room for the post election carve up of the spoils, all the while they pi’s our scarce money away on their vanity.
I see old ff are coming out of the wood work like its all ok? Cowen gets a huge write up explaining how he thinks he did well handling the crisis, can someone remind them they burnt the f’en house down cheered on by fg
Well consultancy fees cost €86 million and they completely failed, so the government should try and recoup this money first.
@Les Behan: pity all those consultants forgot to recommend hiring a secretary to take notes! setting up a billion euro company fg style
take a bow you pompus twit and officially Irelands biggest waster phil Hogan from tipperary
It was lucky the grant money was put aside in full somewhere, very lucky.
Didn’t IW get an extra few million a couple of weeks ago, what exactly are they spending our taxes on?
Metering, fixing leaks, improving infrastructure
Excellent. I think we all knew from the start that this utility was going to end up exactly where it is. Not working and an additional burden on the taxpayer. Yaaaay.. go Ireland
For gods sake call a spade a spade.get fooking rid of it.
123 million….. it’s gonna take a miracle.
Still not paying.
No but Deborah you’re happy to take your welfare cheque.
“It’s going to cost €123 million to keep Irish Water afloat due to water charges shortfall”
Well that fleet of Audi A6s won’t keep themselves on the road, will they?
Mind you, that headline does make a rather excellent case for closing the whole bloody quango down, no?
You’re right, no.
What argument would you put for maintaining the billing system Jason. Give me 3 simple points and debate me on if. I will be around for 2 to 3 hours
So what did they spend the money on? A simple breakdown of costs on 1. The billing system 2. Core staff and projects 3. Maintenance. This is the second biggest stich up in history of the state.
We have been paying for our water for decades via taxation. How are they short?
@William Clay: infrastructure has been mismanaged. Nobody seemed to provide for the deterioration of the system over time. It’s a joke that just under half of all water treated is lost to leaks!
Infrastructure was mismanaged on purpose JFN, to make iw look like the saviour. Of course fg make a balls of it
@William Clay: Exactly William. Defund the public model to the point of near collapse, then set up a company to later privatise and shovel any amount of our taxes into it to fatten it up for sale.
They nearly got away with it as well. And we’re only one manufactured emergency away from them still doing it.
@For Connolly:
You forgot: Hire the same people from the councils who mismanaged the infrastructure in the first place, and give them cushy new jobs in the new Private Utility.
@William Clay: LMAO, now you sound a bit crazy there. So they decided, say… back in the 70s, “hey lads, let’s leave all the pipes deteriorate and in 40 years time we’l set up a private company to manage it and cash in”
Get over yourselves people, most countries don’t invest enough for any service, either through direct or indirect taxation.
Now that there’s been a massive own goal scored by the Irish public the government have come up with a classic way of getting in revenue, by giving something away. In the budget they announced a first time buyers package, massively increased demand overnight has turned into what?……a nice revenue stream back into government coffers…..one they know for a fact will just pass by quietly with zero chance of anyone marching, protesting or showing the least bit of true solidarity with their fellow countrymen, they know the herd mentality is not that sophisticated and respectful toward each other.
The people of Roscommon were used as pawns while the council’s funds were slashed despite several calls for more money to fix the issues. No they were told, wait for iw. That Nick is the truth
@Brent Weaver: That was their reward for allowing the infrastructure to collapse. 29 billion collected for water services since 1997, Not one red cent used for purpose, or accounted for.
A bankers tax to far…
A victory for the people against the tyranny of Europe and Fine Gael.
Our Brexit moment.
Gave you a green thumb Daniel, cos I assumed you were being ironic; though not sure all the other green thumbers thought so, given the normal prevailing opinions on here!
This is what happens when vested interests prevail over the public interest.
Alan Kelly speaks in highly derogatory and insulting terms about protestors.
Meanwhile, thecIrush State victimises and oppresses the Jobstown protestors.
Alan Kelly’s involvement into this filthy corrupt quango needs to be investigated. Along with all the other cheer-leading half wits. There is something seriously wrong here. It is a corrupt failure and was collapsed due to the general public finally waking up to the endemic corruption rife in our society. Heads need to roll over this. Utter filth.
Epic. Jason and the Aquanauts.
I can’t believe someone is trying to defend the indefensible. Irish water is the white elephant of white elephants. It’s time is long over.
The real question is whatever IW faults, is it less or more efficient in the long run than being run by the 40 or so local authorities?
How could this utter failure of a corrupt, fake company which only issues bills and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the actual management of water since its inception, be less efficient than the councils who actually still manage our water?
Consultants, senior executives, performance pay, useless metres and over staffing cost a lot. Add an excess into expensive billing system and huge expenditure on communications, legal costs and lobbying / rewarding politicians takes up a lot of money.
It’s amazing how they can find money for this quango.
We already pay for water through our motor tax. Which makes complete sense. Just use that money.
That’s the way it should be paid for all the time.
@David Dickenson: why not pay through usage rather than general taxation? General taxpayers are getting shafted by people who don’t care about conserving water.
@JFN: fixing the major leaks would do more to conserve water then educating the tiny minority who don’t use their water sensibly.
Do both then. Especially when the meters are now there.
@JFN: Are you one of the people that actually think there are people leaving taps running all day,seriously?
So they have 123 consultants
Pre-2008 Car Owners have had enough paying for water for everybody in their annual Motor Tax since 2008.
New v Old Annual Motor Tax comparison … €440,000 used for Water Services every year!
€280 Motor Tax for Mercedes C-class 2.1L
€270 Motor Tax for BMW 318 2L
€580 Motor Tax for Pre-2008 Toyota Avensis 1.6L (value €2.5K)
@Neuville-Kepler62F:
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t this always the case that local councils in the provision of water services also dipped into the exchequer including motor taxation though probably not to such a degree.
Jjjjjjjjjason – go to bed early after your long walk & get to work early doors in IW HQ like a good chap. Close your eyes for the day & enjoy the silence of not one phone ringing from a ‘customer”! Seriously though – it’s the sad Indo reading believers such as yourself that facilitate this mockery of a government to rip off the citizens of Ireland in favour of their rotten connected pals. Pathetic as you are I feel slightly sorry for you being the lone supporting voice this evening – shrieking into the void! You deserve nothing but contempt however so ((((fekkkk off))))!!! IW will be brought to a halt & the majority of us will never pay a cent more for this cack handed enterprise no matter how much of our money they waste on a billing system or rigged committee reviews.
I thought it was an April fools joke when i heard they plan to put a roof on the reservoir in Stillorgan, But it aint.
Why?
Why are they still getting funds? What part of we’re not paying do they not understand, just close up,
So. …people are still paying it then. That’s public money not being spent on other things.
Well now if they hadn’t spent millions on consultants and millions more on setting up call centres and issuing bills they might actually have the money to do the job. The government of course could actually take the money from the unjust property tax nest egg they are building up. It is definitely not being given to the Councils to maintain services. Oops I forgot it is going to pay the gambling bondholders whom the Government have been told they need never have paid. What a country!!
@Mary Dunphy: will we ever get a clear answer from fg about securing private banking debt onto citizens and their grandchildren’s backs? what a party! (remember Kenny telling Europe “paddy partied” and then backtracked when he was told we could hear him?)
@ciaran: Straight answer no. Remember he also said ‘Paddy needs to know’ and promising that Paddy would know. Well his new mantra must be ‘Paddy will only know what me and my mates choose to tell him.’
@Mary Dunphy: new mantra “paddy who?”, any aul jobs in Brussels?
he knows the game is up, the little control freak has even anointed covney to be his successor, what a hard act to follow! lol
Have one type of car tax based on emissions rather then the TWO tier unfair system. Abolish credit card tax. Then I might consider paying water charges. Otherwise were screwed.
So are they going to blame the public for this or that fact they shouldn’t have tried this in the first place?
Seems like they’re going to blame the public.
100 million Euro would give us a motorway between the Second largest city and third largest city. This is a disgrace to be putting anymore money into Irish Water.
Kill it
We could sell them voting machines…
How do you keep water afloat? Only if it’s Irish water.
If the Garda strikes proceed I suspect many water metres will disappear.
“Irish Water” should be made “the water department” and remain always a public utility. Our water should never be controlled by private companies or individuals… So the cost of “keeping it afloat” should be irrelevant.
Total fecking disaster from the government as usual
Irish water should be used to sell water to England for the river shannon this could cover all the costs
have your say