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A superstore in the US mastermaq via Flickr

New superstore laws 'will be the death of town centres'

Allowing US-style hypermarkets will cost jobs and send money out of the country, according to heritage organisation An Taisce.

GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS TO remove legal limits on the size of warehouse-style superstores will cost jobs and leave town centres gutted, An Taisce has said.

The heritage group said the move – which it’s been suggested could open Ireland up to US-style hypermarkets – would prove “a coffin for town and city centres”.

The proposals, contained in draft Retail Planning Guidelines released by the Department of the Environment last month, would see certain areas exempted from the current cap of 6,000 sq m on the floorspace of “retail warehouse” stores.

The Government committed to re-examining this limit as part of bailout deal agreed with the IMF/EU/ECB troika last year.

However, An Taisce said out-of-town superstores would destroy more jobs than were generated. “Research shows that 1.4 jobs are lost in town centres for every new job created in out-of-town ‘megastores’,” the body said in a statement.

It said research from the US shows that each new superstore “results in a net jobs loss of 270 full-time positions”. They also return only half as much money to the local economy as locally-based shops, An Taisce argued.

“The reality is that mega-retailing in Dundrum has destroyed shopping in Dun Loaghaire, while edge-of-town shopping has also put Waterford and Limerick city centres in jeopardy,” the statement added.

An Taisce is proposing a “hypermarket tax” similar to that being introduced in the North – whereby the largest retail complexes would pay extra rates, which would then go towards supporting smaller businesses.

There should also be a nominal charge on parking at out-of-town retail centres, the body argued.

More: Budget leaks: the hypermarket could be on its way to Ireland>

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74 Comments
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    Mute Tony Stanley
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:47 PM

    Well roof the town centres and place a single cashpoint where you can pay for all your items at once and do away with paid parking AND THEN MAYBE town centres will become convenient and competitive places to shop!

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    Mute hughsheehy
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:51 PM

    Much of what An Taisce does is admirable. However, forcing people to spend more than they need to for basic provisions and shopping on the grounds that it’ll protect some existing business is neither just nor fair nor the way to build a competitive economy.

    If town centres want to provide the same services that the shopping centres do, what’s stopping them?

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    Mute Hans Eckhardt
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:56 PM

    Massive is stopping them. They cannot compete with larger scale operations

    59
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    Mute Joe Sixtwo
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:59 PM

    Hugh it’s the parking costs in the city center that drives people out to suburban shopping centers. along with a terrible infrastructure and expensive public transport.

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    Mute Gary Clowry
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:10 PM

    Do you think once all the local stores are closed, as they cannot compete on many things, that the out of town hypermarket need to be competitive any more?

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    Mute hughsheehy
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 10:55 PM

    Ehm…so…parking. In Dun Laoghaire it’s EXPENSIVE, a conscious decision of the council. Didn’t Dublin recently take similar steps to stop people getting in to Dublin to shop?

    As for competition, the competition review of Irish grocery pricing specifically described how size limitations on new supermarkets were driving prices up. There wouldn’t have to be just ONE out of town store.

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    Mute Damien Moore
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    Dec 24th 2011, 6:52 AM

    Stupid uninformed comment

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    Mute hughsheehy
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    Dec 24th 2011, 8:37 AM

    I’m sure Damien Moore has read the competition authority report and has traveled widely around the world and seen multiple different ways of organizing town centres.

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    Mute Tab Nabs
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:41 PM

    Internet shopping probably got there first.

    88
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    Mute Rodger O Waters
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:32 PM

    You mean tesco lidl aldi etc etc are not shifting millions out weekly?go Harvey go…

    86
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    Mute Diarmuid Danger Lenihan
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:23 PM

    Why does the troika want these hypermarkets anyway, just more evidence that they are serving the best interests of multinational corporations and has no interest in getting Ireland out of the financial hellhole we’re in.

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    Mute joseph mcgee
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    Dec 24th 2011, 12:14 PM

    that was the first thing that jumped out at me. what de f..k is the troika gettin involved in this crap for?
    Finally got around to checkin out john perkins ‘confessions of an economic hitman’, and in the light of what he’s sayin, it makes a lot more sense about what they’re up to.

    Still find it hard to believe that some people think that they are our friends,
    and lends a lot more credibility to the so called conspiracy theorists.

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    Mute Hans Eckhardt
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:01 PM

    It’s really sad I am watching limerick city centre die because of some hyperstores out side of town. It’s been proven in the US that I’d Walmart move into a town it kills the local economy and just makes the middle of the road joe soap and less well off have less money and lets a few execs somewhere with a lot more money. Hyperstores are bad news! In response to other comments above, these store don’t make anything competitive they just destroy anything it there path!

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    Mute Adrian De Cleir
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:32 PM

    Yea limerick is a clear cut example of how suburb shopping centre development can kill a city, the city centre is depressing now, however, ridiculous rates that drove traders out didn’t help.

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    Mute Cormac Flanagan
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 9:15 PM

    And traffic lights every ten meters doesn’t help either.

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    Mute Andrew Telford
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    Dec 24th 2011, 10:50 AM

    Or maybe… It has nothing to do with Tesco. If presented the opportunity people would just rather not risk getting stabbed.

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    Mute Cormac Flanagan
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:58 PM

    Brother lives in a small city bout an hour outside Toronto. They have all there shopping malls spread out in the subards with American tyre etc. the town centre then has all the art/crafty etc shops. All ped walkways, bars, cafe’s.

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    Mute Mary Walsh
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    Dec 24th 2011, 5:17 AM

    Canadian tyre : )

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    Mute Oaklane1
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:39 PM

    But the consumer will save a bundle.

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    Mute Gary Clowry
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:06 PM

    Travel to countries that have a history of building large out of town centres and you’ll see how bad it is on the towns themselves. These new large stores employ less people than the many smaller stores. So yes *some* things would be cheaper but at what cost?

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    Mute Thomas Cooke
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:39 PM

    Anyone who believes that these kind of stores are a good idea in the long run must check out “Is Walmart Good For America” if you don’t change your mind then we better all pack our bags and head for China to work in a sweatshop. We all love a bargain but we are bargaining away our own futures. Check it out… http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

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    Mute Kevin Smyth
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    Dec 24th 2011, 5:10 PM

    People go on and on about bargains. They just want more and more ‘stuff’, to fill their houses, for as cheap as possible. They forget that these supermarkets and hypermarkets are obtaining these bargain goods on the back of someone else.
    Isn’t it great that we can buy disposable clothes in Penneys.
    If there weren’t so many ‘bargains’ my house would not be so hard to navigate due to clutter and I would not have to throw out so much ‘stuff’.
    Also, I don’t like the idea of Walmart. It’s impersonal and ugly. (btw they own ASDA).

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:40 PM

    Knew this was coming, it’s been headed that direction for some time..

    My worst fear would be that every town end up with one of these monstrosities and the small shops in towns die out. (Enough of them are as it is). Every large shopping centre here just has the same range of stores, nothing interesting or unique in any of them.. Its like a vision of Homogenised Hell..

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    Mute Kevin Smyth
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    Dec 24th 2011, 5:24 PM

    “Every large shopping centre here just has the same range of stores”
    Exactly. Mostly English stores too.
    The difference in somewhere like Blanchardstown SC and Dublin City centre. The city has so many one-off shops. It’s not roofed but it’s more interesting.

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    Mute Gerard Murphy
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 9:40 PM

    Easy to solve this, needs a little inverse thinking though;
    Introduce pay parking at out of town retail centres, and free parking in town centres.
    It would help to level the playing field.

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    Mute Eoin Faz
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 11:58 PM

    Genius, problem solved

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    Mute Conor Waring
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 10:00 PM

    We don’t need these huge American-style hypermarkets in the likes of Ireland. We’re just a small country with a tiny population. In Ireland, we should go back to supporting local markets, farmers and shops.

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    Mute Poppy Socks
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    Dec 24th 2011, 1:09 AM

    Exactly where would these hypermarkets even go. The huge Tesco extra in Portlaoise took on an extra 150 staff.THen sacked them all 3 weeks later. Why?? The volumne of sales didn’t increase in fact it decreased because it took longer to do a shop people got fed up and went to a Dunnes across the road.
    Tesco Extra also had so much stock it had a problem with actually keep goods fresh as turn over of customers and sales was not high enough .

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    Mute Eoin Faz
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    Dec 24th 2011, 1:42 AM

    Retail is about cannibalism. That Tesco has to be cheaper than other Tesco’s for people go there. These retailers have to convert cheaper overheads into cheaper prices, even if they are competing with their own shops. Cheap cheap cheap.

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    Mute Conor Waring
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    Dec 24th 2011, 1:14 PM

    I completely agree, Poppy Socks!

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    Mute Luke Kavanagh
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:32 PM

    America has then and they’re doing better than we are.

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    Mute Diarmuid Danger Lenihan
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:47 PM

    Everyone’s doing better than we are in fairness, except maybe Iraq.

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    Mute Auntie Dote
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 6:49 PM

    Are they? Have you ever visited an American town or city and wondered where it’s centre went to? And where did all that decay and hopelessness come from?

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:29 PM

    Are they really doing better than us? Their debt is in the trillions and their unemployment is high..
    Their politicians are just good at talking the talk..

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    Mute RDX862
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 8:53 PM

    America is in a much better position than Ireland. They have so many different options for raising revenue and cutting spending they just don’t have the political will to actually do it.

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 10:01 PM

    Are you serious, Luke? America is in the doldrums and has about as much hope of a recovery as we do.

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    Mute Mark Downes
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 11:40 PM

    They also have the largest prison population in the world, the death penalty and frequent highschool massacres. According to your logic, should we now introduce those here for the benefit of our economy?

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    Mute Luke Kavanagh
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 11:48 PM

    Yeah most disliked comment ice ever had :) I’m so proud

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    Mute Aidan McArdle
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    Dec 24th 2011, 8:02 AM

    Nah, we are not in illegal wars…..

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    Mute Francis Stokes
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 8:39 PM

    There is nothing like the old friendly home store in your town where people give you the best attention. In the big store you are only another shopper Also you know whom you are dealing with..

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    Mute Biggins31
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 8:40 PM

    Drogheda Town centre, Co Louth, has been absolutely killed business-wise by these outside town stores.
    I CAN see their advantages but sadly I can see their downsides too.

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    Mute Brian Walsh
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 11:37 PM

    True, but part of the problem here was that for decades certain businessmen in the town blocked planning within it that may have competed with them. Had they allowed some development all that time ago there would have been some chance of controlled development within the town, or maybe as its a medievil town, have taken the decision to move the commercial district outside the town centre slowly with some control, but they didn’t do that, they instead tried to hang on to their wealth and block others.
    The result was that eventually this was taken out of their hands and others built large out of town retail centres with little or no planning and control involved. Yes, this is great for the consumer (sometimes) but it was these that killed the centre of town business and it was both predictable and preventable.

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    Mute Biggins31
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    Dec 24th 2011, 6:00 PM

    Totally agree with you Brian.
    I could name three West Street retailers alone that acted as bullies on local committees and on council representatives at the time, to keep other businesses out.
    They gained in the short term – and lost in the further long term.
    Now they are gone. One or two even tried to move out to the outer shopping areas after they were built – but the damage was done to them and they failed.
    They in particular, reaped what they sowed.

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    Mute Chuck Eastwood
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 8:19 PM

    Ask anyone living in naas has the massive tesco out side the town had an impact on smaller stores.

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    Mute Bazza
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 11:26 PM

    Naas has been destroyed by the awful new Tesco.
    Having said that its like a ghost town out there lately as everyone feels its wayyy to big and its a real chore to visit it with car park, distance and store size.
    However soon there will only be Tesco if we continue to sup at the table of the tesco satan

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    Mute Poppy Socks
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    Dec 24th 2011, 1:06 AM

    So is Portlaoise.

    The Brits are halting the Tescoisation of their nation.Its time we did too.

    This is not good for Ireland. Huge concrete jungle. It does not provide more employment.

    I’ve seen towns and cities abroad ruined by Shopping centres out in the bURBS but I’ve also seen old buildings in the city centre revived and turned into shopping centres. Brings huge crowds into the city again

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    Mute Cillian
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 9:14 PM

    I can’t believe people are calling to block further competition. If you don’t agree with them: Don’t shop there. Simples.
    Vote with your feet with what shops you want to shop in, but don’t limit the choices of other people.

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    Mute Gary Clowry
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 10:22 PM

    Personally I’m not saying there should be no competition, there should be plenty of competition. What many of us are saying is these stores provide competition initially. But…They employ less people, they pay low wages for most staff and they will put many smaller stores out of business as they cannot compete. Once the smaller stores have gone there is *no* competition. And the town centre is a shithole. Do you then build another hypermarket next door?
    We should be forcing down the cost to run a shop, lower rents, insurance, electricity etc. To allow all shops to offer a better deal.

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    Mute Kevin Smyth
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    Dec 24th 2011, 5:27 PM

    Smaller, family run shops simply cannot compete with these mega rich superstores. Simples.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Dec 24th 2011, 8:35 PM

    Yes, and most people would prefer a bargain (which is fair enough), so how many would go tithe little shops? Probably not enough, as has been proven already. And so the smaller stores close down and then you do not have any other option..
    Hardly competitive now is it? More like domineering..

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    Mute Nigel Kenny
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 8:44 PM

    Make it cheaper to buy from locally owned stores rather than lift the restrictions.

    27
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    Mute Shane Gleeson
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 7:40 PM

    Same attitudes force people off motorways into tiny towns to get petrol. Compete or die, don’t rely on the government to guarantee you a business at the consumer’s expenses. Funny how the same people moaning about the ‘workers’ getting screwed by taxes are happy to force them to pay more at retail.

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    Mute Val Kearney
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    Dec 24th 2011, 4:29 AM

    People need to wake up to the fact that these decisions aren’t been made by the Irish government. These decisions aren’t even been made by the EU, IMF, Germany or France. These decisions are being made by the people behind them. These decisions are being made by the type of people that own these ‘megastores’ in America. They’re being made by people that have so much wealth, money has no meaning for them anymore. They’re being made by the same people that have us convinced that the recession is our fault, that the only way to save society and the economy is to bail them out and that the only way to create jobs is to keep the rich happy. They all need a serious boot up the arse.

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    Mute Gary Clowry
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    Dec 24th 2011, 9:03 AM

    Not to be a party pooper here but I didn’t notice anyone putting a gun to our heads to make us borrow all that money. I don’t seem to recall anyone forcing us to vote FF repeatedly either. I’m not rich but I do have a fondness for many of them as they are the ones paying the vast majority of our tax. Just sayin’

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    Mute Thats So Grodie
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 11:58 PM

    I bought all my veg in the town market – towns person 1 – hyper 0

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    Mute Frank2521
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 8:58 PM

    Tragic – it means more of our young people emigrating. The retail sector is our biggest employer and if people continue to shop up north and people allow Walmart in then we are in for higher unemployment. If you shop in the north or in the superstores you are putting money in their pockets and taking jobs and money from your own family and neighbours. That is why our welfare and health cuts are being implemented as the tax is going out of our country.

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    Mute P Wurple
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 9:07 PM

    Plenty of other things killing town centers around here. Speen bumps that can be seen from space they are so huge. Street layout ( removing footpaths completely to put in bus and cycle lanes, or completly pedestrianising a street where cars used to be able to drop people off). Removing the parking spaces. traffic lights every 10 metres. High rates. Disrepair of streets. The weather! We have had two soaking summers, and two freezing winters in a row. None of those conditions are good for people trying to use town centers.

    22
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    Mute limofax
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    Dec 24th 2011, 9:36 AM

    Despite negative equity,wage cuts and increasing costs of fuel etc,at our house we always buy Irish where possible. We only buy Irish local meat fron the butchers. All our vegtables and fruit come from the local greengrocer where the produce is fresher and stays in date longer.It always works out cheaper. When Dell were in Ireland we purchased one of their computers. When Dell started pulling out and we needed a replacement we went somewhere else.We never shopped up north. We had to purchase some furniture recently and only bought from irish made furniture shops. So when I see laws being changed to allow hypermarts into the country I feel very deflated. However, we will continue to support and praise our local economy in the hope that we can influence others.

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    Mute Pádraig Rice
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    Dec 24th 2011, 1:48 AM

    Why was an examination of the current limit part of the EU/IMF bail out deal?

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    Mute Seán Lynch
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    Dec 24th 2011, 8:45 AM

    So the big boys behind the scene can bring in more of their friends from the corpratocracy (corporations, banks and government) and squeeze every cent possible from us and other businesses. Our government has been bought and sold years ago. The only real vote we have left is with our euros so make sure to vote wisely when it comes to consumption, that will have more of an impact than anything!

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    Mute Seán Lynch
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    Dec 24th 2011, 6:04 AM

    Look no further than the damage that has been done to many states in the US by Walmart alone. Walmart enters the scene, forces smaller mom and pop stores out of business, then when a few towns become dependent on Walmart the ‘small’ Walmarts close and a megamart opens. Now suppliers are also dependent on the store and Walmart force them to give bulk discounts. Similarly the few low income staff working there (more cost cutting) are also dependent on shopping there so their money goes back into the store. What’s even more frightening is how they treat their staff. Staff are often asked to come in early or stay on a little late as to try and get free labour. They’re not allowed to date outside of work hours either! I visited a few Walmart s in the states and despite how shocking these actions are, people still shop there! Interestingly Walmart tried to buy Dunnes Stores a few years ago but thankfully it cost too much. They also tried to set up in Germany but the Germans refused their entry, probably on the grounds that they had their share of immoral organisations trying to run the show. There is an increasing anti Walmart campaign across the states now with many states outright refusing entry to Walmart! It will be a very sad day for Ireland if this goes ahead.

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    Mute Andrew Telford
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    Dec 24th 2011, 10:45 AM

    Wrong wrong wrong…

    Walmart were in germany and had a significant presence, they pulled out due to union costs.

    They never actively bid or tried to takeover Dunnes stores… Maggie Hefferman prices her empire above that of market value for sentimental reasons plus it’s too risky a PR wildcard to attempt a takeover while the business is healthy

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    Mute Derek Durkin
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    Dec 24th 2011, 1:49 AM

    In America if u shop local 45% of what u spend stays in the local economy compared to 15% for the big multinationals and id imagine figures would be similiar here. That alone should be enough 4 governments to say no but its a troika decision and their interests are the multinationals and the wishes of the bildeburg group.

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    Mute joseph mcgee
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    Dec 24th 2011, 12:26 PM

    Sssshhhhhhhh……. derek,
    don’t u know that ur not allowed to mention things like bilderberg group etc around here.
    Eyes will glaze over, u’ll be labelled a conspiracy nut and will possibly be ridiculed!

    As i said in a post above, i struggle with how some people still believe that the troika and whose interests they really serve are, in some quarters, still be hailed as the good guys.

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    Mute Francis Stokes
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    Dec 23rd 2011, 8:41 PM

    When it comes to Jobs a big store might employ more people but one must remember that there is another job lost as the smaller store is under pressure to compete .

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    Mute Somhairle Mac
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    Dec 24th 2011, 10:44 AM

    I hate Tesco & Wall-mart. They steamroll into areas taking away any form of uniqueness and replace it with sandardised stores offering the same thing. Spar do my head in too, their in every village, where is the uniqueness? Wheres the shop keeper you had the craic with every morning? Replaced by standard products and foreigners you dont know on student visas working their 20 hours per week (yeah right!). My fiancé love going to these stores and argues you cant beat the prices, this may be true but I dont want every town in Ireland looking the same, and Dublin looking like Boston or Birmingham.

    There are benefits to hypermarkets, price being the main one but for me the bad outweighs the good. Reduce rates, rents and lets keep our towns unique.

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    Mute Kevin Smyth
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    Dec 24th 2011, 5:35 PM

    It seems from reading the comments on here, that many of us Irish don’t agree with the soul-less supermarkets, much less the mind boggling hypermarkets. I was in a hypermarket in Portugal and really, it’s a joke the size of it. You have to see it for yourself.
    Let’s not become so callous towards our local shops in light of bargains offered by foreign superstores.
    Shop Local! :)

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    Mute neuromancer
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    Dec 24th 2011, 6:33 AM

    I like to be able to get the basic foods I need, bread, milk, sugar, tea and coke cheaply and quickly.

    Pros and Cons
    Tesco does them all cheaper, significantly, than the smaller store.

    I can walk into a smaller store and have them all picked up and bought within 4 minutes.

    Free parking at Tesco, 50% of the time it’s free parking for small store.

    I always leave Tesco with more stuff than I needed in the first place.

    Tesco stays open longer, in most cases, than the smaller stores.

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    Mute Thinkshpake
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    Dec 25th 2011, 1:04 AM

    Like the Bull McCabe said himself in The Field, “go home yank”

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    Mute Andrew Telford
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    Dec 24th 2011, 10:38 AM

    Completely inaccurate comparison… Walmart or similar would not have the same liberties in Ireland that it would in the USA. Therefore the effect can not be assumed to be the same

    We don’t have ‘unincorporated’ areas where it can dodge property taxes.

    We don’t have loose planning legislation that would allow them to be thrown up anywhere.

    Land and construction costs are much greater… Holding it back from temporarily saturating a market with stores to pull back later and close them later.

    We don’t have a state sales tax that feeds directly into local communities to bribe townships into passing permission for stores with we have a central VAT rate

    We don’t have lobbyists and government officials with corporate interests on nearly the same scale.

    Anti-union threatening and stalking employees would be illegal here.

    To use a US based study to characterize what would happen here is scaremongering and political pandering

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    Mute Andrew Telford
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    Dec 24th 2011, 10:54 AM

    Here’s another ‘HUGE’ factor… American gas at $3.80 a gallon or Irish petrol at €7.00+

    American stats start to swing in the other direction with people increasingly shopping local when the price of gas swings above $4.00

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    Mute Vincent Byrne
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    Dec 26th 2011, 1:09 AM

    James Howard Kunstler. Kick ass video on loss of historical town centres in US, replacement by strip malls & suburban sprawl – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ

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    Mute Chris Mcdonnell
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    Dec 24th 2011, 1:44 PM

    It cost almost €4 an hour to park in the city centre. You can’t bring shopping home on the bus so I’ll continue to use tesco or any other shop that provides value for money.

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