@Brian let’s see the world is a total mess and left wing liberal Obama has been in power 8 years. In France the place has seldom been worse and Let Pen seeks to replace left wing liberal Hollande.

Obama is left wing, but his policies are not liberal. Hollande is also left wing, but again not liberal. Liberalism does not adhere to the traditional left-right political spectrum. You can have left wing liberals, right wing liberals and centrist liberals. Both Hollande and Obama were in favour of increased state control, be it through things like Obamacare or increased bureaucracy. That is not liberal.

@Brian Ó Dálaigh: I’ve seen how irritated genuine liberals get which is why I use inverted commas generally when referring to ‘liberals’. But frankly, real liberals need to start taking on what’s being done in their name more effectively. It is self-proclaimed liberals who have been pushing the identity politics, the ‘anti-racism’ islamophobia agenda, the ‘libertarian’ open borders and all the rest of it.

The reality is that the idea of liberalism – of individual rights, freedom of speech and conscience etc- has become completely debased and is now used to justify the appeasement of violent religious fundamentalism provided its engaged in by people with generally darker skin colours and to oppose any sane border control policies on the basis that they limit personal freedom.

The liberal idea of the importance of values in politics is also being used to silence discussion of the very real economic interests that stand behind those policies. Liberalism itself needs to engage in some reflection and self-criticism.

Thank you, Marlowemallow! At least someone understands how irritating it is when the wrong people are blamed.

@Brian Ó Dálaigh: There is also a massive problem with how liberalism is defined. You seem to be of the laissez-faire, limited-state variety. But liberalism is not so easily defined in my view. Old-fashioned conservatism was and is just as opposed to excessive statism and bureacracy. And modern limited-state liberalism is very much influenced by US-centric Ayn Randian-influenced libertarianism rather than the 19th century laissez-faire tradition.

You mean like the way Obama has handed a vibrant US economy to Trump while Trump’s buddies Vlad, Bash, Rech and Bibi preside over middle East mayhem?

Brian you are describing classic liberalism a school of thought long since replaced by modern big government, “progressive” liberalism.

@Mikhail Valtazar:
“let’s see the world is a total mess and left wing liberal Obama has been in power 8 years”

He was Prime Minister from 1999 to 2000, President from 2000 to 2008, and again Prime Minister from 2008 to 2012

guess whos that above? Does he have any culpability? or one rule for….

@Marlowemallow:
“There is also a massive problem with how liberalism is defined”
Because it shouldn’t be defined, or conservatism, thats how we start putting people into categories. The reality is peoples mind change every day. they will have a leaning but it will change.

@Stephen Coveney: That’s the core insanity of postmodernism. Refusal to categorize anything on the basis that things change is ultimately a rejection of the human capacity for abstract though. Because all abstract though relies on our ability to categorize. Without that, our rickety rational brains have a predictable tendency to run off the rails. There’s a world of reason in between the extremes of refusal to categorize at all vs. refusal to adapt obsolete categories to changing realities.

Yes most of our instincts have been built up from evolution to categorise danger from non danger. But humans have moved away from that binary view so we can indulge ourselves in the benefits other beings bring.

And if i read your response correctly, you think we should be all put into separate boxes based on certain criteria?

@Stephen Coveney: The tendency to engage in binary thought is hardwired in those who like to ‘indulge themselves in the benefits other beings bring’ – whatever that means – just as it is in everyone else. Nor is binary thought a bad thing in itself. There is no escaping the human condition that easily.

@Stephen Coveney: No. I’m talking about the categorization of abstract concepts.

So now you’re saying that no one “different” brings any positives to a society. I can only deduce that you believe we should all build walls around the borders we have now? No outsiders allowed unless they have something we want?

@Stephen Coveney: You haven’t understood a word I’ve said I’m afraid.

You seemed to have tripped yourself up or the pages of your thesaurus got stuck together

@Brian Ó Dálaigh: I struggle with this question myself. I am coming round to the notion that the political divide has shifted because of the Stalin, Kim Yung 2, Castro types. It shifted to a divide based on accountability and non-accountability. On one side you have globalism, borderless states, unlimited immigration, climate change hysteria, wind mills, abortion on demand, blind eye being turned to foreign human rights abuses.

On the other is a return to the nation state, accountability, compliance with the law. Trump is quite leftie in same ways

@Nathalie Vassard: I was looking for that video on Bloomberg but found this on Bloomberg insteadL

“If she wins, the European Union would be badly and perhaps fatally wounded. By comparison, Brexit would be a minor nuisance.”

This is from an editorial on the 26th Nov 2016. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-25/france-needs-someone-to-stop-le-pen

Can you post a link to that video please?

@Mike: The EU is dying a slow death. Nationalism is on the rise across Europe and it’s just a matter of time before it dismantles the project one way or another.

@Mike: Here : https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-12/le-pen-in-new-york-for-unannounced-visit-during-french-race?utm_content=politics&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&cmpid%3D=socialflow-twitter-politics

@Nathalie Vassard: One of those guys spoke of the “post truth” world implying that it led to Trump and Brexit. Anyone who can spout such rubbish as that won’t get much respect outside of their own echo chamber.

@Mike: for better or worse populism is what will win, across europe, the left is completely in its own echo chamber and insists that everyone who disagrees with them are idiots. le pen will win in france, mark my words.

@Marlowemallow: I just want it to be sooner rather than later. It looks like we have a path to “less EU” now for the first time. None of it is in our hands her in Ireland though. I don’t think there is any Eurosceptic options here. We had our chances to make a difference I guess but we were forced by the mainstream parties to vote again. It’s odd having our interests so heavily vested in the outcomes of all these countries elections.

@Mike: I hope you’re right:-) Oddly in Ireland we have far left populism, and “I’ll give ya a medical card, council house, free water, higher dole etc etc.” buying us with our own money populism.

@Mike: I suspect that for many Irish people the EU plays a role of almost a talisman separating the dark, impoverished, cleric-ridden Past from the Celtic Tiger, liberal, prosperous present. It’s not an entirely rational belief but the association is so strong that the prospect of leaving, or of it leaving us, seems to trigger extremely strong fears. It’s understandable.

No there are no Eurosceptic choices here and I think those fears are the reason why. As you note, it’s becoming clear to people that this is a process entirely out of our hands in any event. We’re minnows. But Irish people will need some self-confidence if we’re going to be ready to make the best of these changes.

@Fred: Hope you are right. I am not far right, I believe in good social services and the welfare state, but anything is better than the commie, leftie greenie liberals

Not true Early. There are decent conservatives like Francois Fillon and John McCain. And then there are the less decent but at least politically committed ones like Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. Then there are the batsht crazy ones like Carson and Wilders. And then there are the neo-Nazis who have re-branded themselves Alt Right.

@Early Cuyler: The meaning of terms like liberal and conservative is hugely in flux right now just like the left-right divide. Essentially anyone who questions particular trigger issues – that would be the usual immigration and Islam – is moved from the respectable conservative category into the realm of some form of sneer-word. Which issues are assigned to liberal/conservative, left/right, changes over time.

HOTBank, “….branded themselves…”, or been branded Alt-Right? Genuine question.

Why would I be a moron? Because I travelled and lived in multiple countries, learned four languages fluently and keep an open mind?
Where would the world be with closed borders and close minded individuals?

I guess I need to explain. You demonstrate the typical attitude of the modern neo-liberal, framing everything in a nationalist construct. Someone who wants to control immigration, for example, is thus branded narrow minded etc. Why cannot be worldly wise but still want to retain their national identity?

@Simon and Co: “Why would I be a moron?” – Because of your post. The good people reading this page do not have the pleasure of having their eardrums gently caressed with the beautiful sound that surely stems from your multilingual self. Alas, instead of being regaled with stories of far away sights and wonders scarcely imaginable of this world, we have your post and that is all you are on this page; a very moronic post.

@Mike: that is possibly the greatest reply i have ever read. Congrats sir!

Medal award time

Listen carefully, I will say this only once.