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115,000 pensioners told: You'll have to pay more tax

The Revenue Commissioners and Department of Social Protection identify 115,000 pensioners whose income had been underdeclared.

Updated, 23.53

THE REVENUE COMMISSIONERS has written to 115,000 pensioners informing them that they will have to pay more income tax in 2012, after discovering that its records understated the amount they were receiving as State pensions.

The Revenue Commissioners identified the number after exchanging records on over 560,000 pension recipients with the Department of Social Protection.

This evening the Revenue said the people affected had either not reported their State pensions to the Revenue Commissioners, had under-reported their value, or had seen their circumstances change in some other way without notifying Revenue.

It said most affected pensioners would have to pay a “modest” extra liability, but that in some cases an individual could find themselves having to pay an extra €4,400 this year, or €8,800 in the case of a couple.

Those couples, the Revenue said, “will already have reasonably significant [non-State pension] income”. At least 2,500 of the affected pensioners had private income in excess of €50,000, it added.

The data exchange also found that 20,000 people would end up paying less tax, because their department income had been overstated.

The tax system provides that anyone over the age of 65 whose total annual income is less than €18,000 – or a couple whose income is less than €36,000 – does not have to pay income tax.

Anyone whose State pension is their sole income therefore does not have to pay income tax, though they may be liable for tax if they also have other income – such as a salary, or an occupational or private pension – as well as the State pension.

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110 Comments
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:32 PM

    More than half of these pensioners are helping their kids pay their mortgages. Helping them with childcare. Helping with loans that may never be repaid.

    Go after your rich friends you shower of b@st@##s.

    102
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:43 PM

    No doubt the FGers are out in force tonight. All got free iPhones for paying their Household Tax?

    Bash away you plonkers!

    56
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    Mute Daniel Hunt
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:15 PM

    Double standards much?
    If it were in ANY way tied to politicians, people would be spitting blood to make sure they got their comuppence.

    Either the rules are obeyed, it not.
    You can’t pick and choose.

    37
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:30 PM

    Don’t even try to make me laugh Daniel. How the hell did they decide to start here??

    When are they going to figure out that a 3rd tax bracket is in order.

    Seems to me this shower have a bit of a blind spot for a particular group!!!

    44
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    Mute Daniel Hunt
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:05 AM

    Ah, that’s right. They should completely ignore *any* oversight, unless it involves taking money from ‘the rich’, or ‘bankers’.

    This money was overpaid. The govt is morally, legally, and financially 100% right to claw it back asap.

    35
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:18 AM

    Too late Daniel. LMHO! They’ve made a hell of a lot of mistakes alright. I just wish they’d have a better idea of a correct order of rectification. Ha ha ha. This government give me the pip!

    24
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    Mute Dastardly
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:48 PM

    Fair play to the revenue. Pensioners have not had any of their income touched and the revenue is purely enforcing the conditions of receiving their pension. Pensioners whom are still following the guidelines will be fine. I’m wondering how much more avoidance is out there?

    83
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    Mute Ciaro
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:57 PM

    The taxpayer pays for TDs dry cleaning and their cheap food and drink in the Dail bar.
    It’s time for action.

    27
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    Mute Rommel Burke
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:14 PM

    these are not new rules. the tax only applies on income above 18k / 36k depending on marital status. Also where personal pensions are involved tax relief may have been applicable to the original contributions. Surprised it’s taken so long to go after this. Well maybe not that surprised….

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    Mute Eileen Gabbett
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:15 PM

    Nothing like the 115000 they are saying me thinks . People who have worked and saved and planned for their retirement are now targets . ,and not all private pensioners avoid paying tax

    12
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    Mute Stephen Pluck
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:43 PM

    Rip off? It’s fraud… Not declaring income…

    81
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    Mute Robert Murphy
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:25 PM

    @ John murphy. Way to generalise… Not all public servants are on “obscene bonuses, pensions and wages”. Why don’t you come along for a weekend of nights on an with an ambulance crew and see the kind of work we do for €15 an hour. Not mention having to listen drunks tell you “my taxes pay your wages”… Maybe you should have a think before you tar all public servants with the same brush…

    72
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    Mute Aydo
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    Jan 6th 2012, 1:55 AM

    I’d honesty hate that. So much. You guys do fantastic work.

    27
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    Mute Auntie Dote
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    Jan 6th 2012, 9:13 AM

    Let me say loud and clear. I for one appreciate in spades the fact that people are staffing our frontline emergency devices at all hours and in the most professional and dedicated fashion. I’m delighted for their wages to be paid from our public purse, and would love such wages be sufficient to make them feel secure and appreciated. Thanks!

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    Mute Auntie Dote
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    Jan 6th 2012, 9:14 AM

    Whoops. ‘Services’ not ‘Devices’.

    5
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    Mute Liam Ruth
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:30 PM

    My mother (80 year old retired nurse) received this letter. Frightened the crap out of her. Poor quality, standard template letter apologising for their error but telling her due to her state OAP not being taken in to account correctly her tax credit was incorrect and extra tax would be deducted in 2012. No amounts on letter or any indication of how much extra she’d have to pay. The OAP has automatically been taken into account every year previously in her tax credit so to my reading this is ( in my mothers case anyway) a revenue error and not a case of any wilful under declaration. As a paye worker her working life and still a paye taxpayer on her nurses pension I doubt she’s filled in a tax form in her life!

    67
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    Mute jason bourne
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:23 PM

    Greedy old bastards sitting on a load of money they will never spend and end up curling up their toes an leaving it all to their ungrateful brats… Anyone who doesn’t pay tax on undeclared money is greedy and fraudulent

    63
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    Mute Aaron McKenna
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:59 PM

    How about “115,000 people told they have to stop avoiding tax”? That they’re pensioners is secondary to the fact that they are tax payers avoiding their full tax bill by non-declaration of income.

    The government isn’t chasing your dear old mum on €200 a week here.

    61
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    Mute Eileen Gabbett
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:05 PM

    No they are chasing the people who are on 300 a week after they have already paid taxes all their lives and supported this blasted country …. pick on the vulnerable is right , but not the ones who never contributed a penny

    23
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    Mute Vincent O'Halloran
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:19 PM

    Aaron, I am sure you will soon find out that this relates more to inefficiency in the Govt services than tax evasion. I knock my parents pay their taxes including the Universal Levy. They plus some other pensioners I know received letters from the Revenue today.

    You should also note that anybody receiving an employee pension was a PAYE taxpayer previously.

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    Mute John Murphy
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:19 PM

    Aaron
    The annoying thing to most people is the sheer waste and corruption in how collected revenue is spent. If a determined effort was shown that outrageous pensions, bonuses and deals to public servants were addressed. That the much trumpeted cap on pay to political advisers was honoured. That the bottomless pit of waste in the health service etc. was seen to Then the government might have some moral authority to do this.
    As long as certain rules can be set aside at their own discretion and to their own nefarious ends then those rules can hardly be strictly applied in the wider context and they deserve every type of opposition to every cut and measure they introduce or enforce to collect this money to be wasted, mismanaged and used in their corrupt dealings.

    15
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    Mute Aaron McKenna
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:24 PM

    Hi Eileen – If you’re suggesting that we should exempt the retired from paying income taxes, regardless of their income, because they have worked all their lives and paid taxes (etc), that’s a proposal I’m sure could be explored.

    As it stands however, pensioners have to pay tax on their income above certain thresholds, the same as anyone else.

    Occupational pensions are taxed as if you are working, though you are exempt from PRSI and pay a reduced rate of USC.

    The state pension is not taxed unless you also have an occupational pension that brings your income above the threshold.

    24
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    Mute Stephen Johnston
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:52 PM

    I couldn’t object to to this moronic situation being rectified, but I don’t begin to understand how, up to this point, the State apparently hasn’t known who it’s also paying pensions to when receiving tax declarations on private pensions. When you got a declaration of pension earnings from a 65+ year old, would you not have been inclined to ask “but what about your State pension?”. Surely those PPS numbers exist for a reason?

    I’m willing to bet the majority of people affected here are former PAYE workers who declared any private pension earnings and blithely assumed that the appropriate tax was being deducted inclusive of their State entitlements, as always. If it was a deliberate act of deception by 115,000 people (!), it was a bloody risky one. Far more likely this is a failure to correctly inform a pretty vulnerable group of taxpayers of what was required of them.

    58
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    Mute Rommel Burke
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:18 PM

    think you’ve got it spot on there Stephen

    34
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    Mute Stephen Kearon
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:55 PM

    Pity Dept Social Welfare aren’t chasing as vigorously those refuse to work

    56
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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:12 AM

    When will people cop on to this crap spewed out by the government regarding refusing to take jobs.The department of social welfare do not create jobs or send people for interviews.I have been working since 1979 and have experienced redundancy and unemployment during the boom , the bust and apllied for countless jobs and was lucky to even get a reply acknowledge my cv.I recieved the basic job seekers allowance no more no less.It the most dehumanising experience and it might serve you well to actual go into a social welfare office and actually experience what happens…you will find no jobs advertised no help to gain employment or interviews.What you will find are a lot of people who want nothing better than to work again and well paid public sector workers going through the motions with a job for life…I would like to see a system were people that apply for jobs get a reply to their application for an interview,if they are refused an interview they present the letter to the dept of social welfare and they contact the employer asking why the individual was refused an interview,or if an employer turns around to a person at an interview and tells them your perfect for the role but i think you be bored or too experienced that they get hauled in to explain why they did not give that person the job.It so easy to make a generalised statement based on the bull shit that comes out of ibec,govt,isme etc…

    44
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    Mute Desmond O'Toole
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:56 PM

    Great news. This country has a dreadful reputation for people avoiding their tax liabilities by hiding money or under declaring their income. Fair play to the government for going after people who think they can get a free ride off the honest citizens of this State, especially PAYE workers, who always end up being the only ones paying their proper income tax. These people should be hit for back tax as well.

    53
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    Mute David Ganly
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:50 PM

    How did the department know about unclaimed taxable income if the people didn’t declare it ??

    I have seen this letter that was sent and i can tell you that this was another mess up by the responsible government departments. They allocated the incorrect tax credits and it’s supposed to be the responsibility of the law abiding pensioner to figure out their mess!!

    The letter from the department states that “they apologise”

    As I read the article it insinuates 115,000 pensioners are guilty of fraud I am sure that is not the reality.

    50
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    Mute David Ganly
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:57 PM

    Sorry “typo” should read understated taxable income instead of unclaimed

    14
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    Mute Vincent O'Halloran
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:29 PM

    Reading the article it says the Social Welfare dept expect you to tell them how much THEY have paid to you. This is definitely a govt dept cock up!

    45
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    Mute Joan Featherstone
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:37 PM

    Is there no stop to this rip off on the ‘ordinary’ citizen.

    45
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    Mute Ciaran Whyte
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:46 PM

    By ordinary, do you mean people that didn’t declare income? This is a case of people who haven’t paid taxes they legitimately owe

    106
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    Mute Reg
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:06 PM

    They’re hardly ordinary citzens if they are not declaring income to avoid paying tax. Proper citizens pay their taxes!

    50
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    Mute Dermot Purcell
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:53 PM

    Seanie are you advising the goverment again

    6
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    Mute Jurisprudence
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:06 PM

    Lets call a pensioner someone over 65 (generalisation)

    Just wondering what your thought process is Joan. Is it
    Age
    below 65, not declaring income = fraud
    over 65, not declaring income = innocent people being screwed by the gubbermint.

    So Joan tell me whats wrong with your logic here. If you can.
    Just because your old doesn’t mean your actions are not wrong. If Seany was 80 would it be ok to be a fraudster?

    20
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    Mute ponythegringo
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    Jan 6th 2012, 6:40 AM

    sneaky old fianna failers.

    3
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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Jan 6th 2012, 6:36 PM

    Cant wait for the department of revenue to write to all those paye,pensioners,self employed tax payers who over paid their taxes in the last 6 years…..Nope somehow dont see that happening that would be an addmittance that the dept got it wrong….You only get a letter when you owe money and they fk up.But no checks arrive with letter of apol for over paying tax….

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    Mute Joan Brennan
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:09 AM

    Hang about with all this talk about “Fraudsters”. I have a very small public service widows pension, from my husband’s stamps. Due to hill health he had to give up work in his early 40s. He has died since. R.I.P. I also have a social welfare widows’ pension, gotten on my own stamps. I too received this letter to-day and cannot make head or tail of it. My two pensions were alway lumped together for tax purposes. All credits were given to and all taxes taken from, the public service pension. Maybe I will be like the lady who rang and was told she was ok. Anyhow, with enough problems, this one can wait until I see what, If any, extra tax is being taken.

    And why oh why, can a higher rate of tax not be charged to persons earning over €60-70,000 pa. why can free education not be kept by students whose parents earn under € 60,000 pa. Why do we always give out necessary benefits to Everyone, Free third level education; free medical cards to over 70s, many of whom did not need them, but they used them.

    40
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    Mute paul mulligan
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    Jan 6th 2012, 5:07 AM

    Hi Joan,
    No one is saying all pensioners are fraudsters, although I did use the term in a previous post. You are quite rightly entitled to your pension. My gripe is with those who under declared their income and thus didnt pay their fair share of tax.

    12
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    Mute Dearbhla Carmody
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:20 PM

    This is just a diversion, go after pensioners, to avoid doing some real work and investigating the real defaulters!

    39
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    Mute Reg
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:23 PM

    So it’s ok ti ignore a pensioner with an income of 50k a year then?

    57
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    Mute paul mulligan
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:45 PM

    Must admit, I’m taken aback by the amount of sympathy for what are in effect, fraudsters. These people under declared their income, either knowingly or unknowingly. They owe the exchequer, and by extension, the taxpayer a considerable amount of money. What they effectively done, is underpaid their taxes. Why the sympathy?

    39
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:08 AM

    I think you’re mistaking the emotions here Paul. It’s not sympathy it’s anger. They are keeping their promise to not raise taxes but all their energy has gone into squeezing every section of society omitting those that can most afford to pay their fair share.

    Reading comments about all the wealthy elderly raking it in on their pensions is a little bit irritating tbh!

    30
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    Mute Faceless Man
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    Jan 6th 2012, 1:30 AM

    So you’re peeved that say Fingleton and his obscene PRIVATE pension are being gone after here??

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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Jan 6th 2012, 1:48 AM

    If you’re addressing me Faceless Man, try reading between the lines. You might discover Mr Fingleton and his like would be high on my target list.

    18
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    Mute Stephen Pluck
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:14 PM

    Think people re-read the article again before commenting. “at least 2500 people have an income of 50000 or more from a private pension” and they are claiming a state pension and paying little or no tax? Earn 50k a year tax free wish I could do that. This won’t affect people claiming a state pension or a state pension along with a small private pension.

    39
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    Mute Vincent O'Halloran
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:27 PM

    Become a polition or a senior public servant

    11
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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:59 PM

    Yet again we find civil servants sitting on their arse pushing pieces paper around each day.When will state workers be held accountable for failing to do their jobs.This comes on the heels of the same dept of welfare not checking what entitlements it was paying out to those on social welfare.No wonder civil serrvants have it so easy when its employer is too busy screwing everyone else before taking on the role of an employer and downsizing and slashing obscene rates of pay for top management.For years we have been fed the crap that if we did not pay these heads of depts obscene salaries they would go somewere else.Well time to tell them fuck off and we will employ private sector managers that will do your job more efficiently for the going rate in the private sector

    34
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    Mute paul mulligan
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:11 AM

    Was it not the private sector that got us into this sh1t in the first place? If you’re gonna generalise, then so will I!!

    36
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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:23 AM

    It was the banks,buiding industry and the government that fucked this country.Remember it was the government of the day ie public sector who created the climate that allowed banks to lend monies it did not have.These banks were regulated by public sector quangos ie financial regulator who we now know did no regulation.We the the private sector have seen our wages slashed,unemployment go through the roof and what do we see the government ie public sector refusing to do most if not all private sector firms have done which is to downsize and slash wages,bonuses,benefits etc of its employees ie public sector workers.. no we have to bail out the banks,the bond holders and finance the croke park agreement oh and the household charge which actual equates to the current cost of financing the payroll for those local authority workers that are on sick pay…

    26
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:39 AM

    Thumb up for your reply to Stephen above but two thumb downs here Martin. It’s not private V public sector. Sick of listening to that. No them and us! Not among ourselves anyway. And I’m private sector ftr.

    34
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    Mute damien o'c
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    Jan 6th 2012, 2:16 AM

    That’s a mighty big bucket of tar you have there sir..

    20
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    Mute Neil Kettles
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    Jan 6th 2012, 8:05 AM

    Spot on Martin! It’s time benchmarking was was brought to the table again. I don’t hear a word from public service unions in regards to private sector wage comparisons now! I wonder why? As long as public servants continue to be protected from the real world, Ireland’s heading for default! This crowd in charge are prepared to go after anyone and everything except their wealthy pals and powerful public servant unions. It’s nothing short of treason.

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    Mute Kevin McCarthy
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:13 PM

    Disgrace is a soft word. Not everyone here have big fat pensions. Very modest. Plus these folks paid their dues during the heavy taxes over the decades. This country is a sick joke.

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    Mute Innishvilla
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:54 PM

    Fool

    9
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    Mute Ciaro
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:46 PM

    Disgusting. First they rob the pension funds, now they go after pensioners

    Enda Kenny, don’t ever come near me because I think I would lose my self control.

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    Mute David Higgins
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:15 PM

    You actually expect the Taoiseach to turn a blind eye to undeclared tax liabilities?

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    Mute John Murphy
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:31 PM

    Turning a blind eye to the neglect of paying taxes due to the state is a long tradition of that particular office.

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    Mute Jurisprudence
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:26 PM

    I think the photo in the article is very best disingenuous and at worst diminishes those pensioners undergoing hardship, of which many are. The clasped hands over a tea cup implies a worried face of a pensioner above it who cannot meet their needs, heat, food, clothing, medical care etc. This is to recoup what is actually owed. It isn’t affecting/concerned with people in need, its about what someone honestly owes but decided fraudulently not to pay because they are loaded and intend to stay that way.

    There is no difference between old and rich and young and rich, we all have to pay tax. and its wrong to commit fraud especially if their activity means reduced funding for those truly in need (its really for banks though isn’t it FG/Lab). Maybe change it to a picture of a rich old golfer playing at everyone else’s expense.

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    Mute Eileen Gabbett
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:02 PM

    The thing is they already have paid tax on this when they were contributing to their pensions in the first place , now they are expected to pay a second round ….. I want to live in a cave . This is no life ! Bills debt and more bills. taxes , charges and then insurances….

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    Mute Reg
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:08 PM

    Not if they are receiving additional private pensions. Money going into private pension is paid in after generous tax reliefs.

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    Mute Eileen Gabbett
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:12 PM

    Absolutely not . Tax is paid on private pension and I know this for a fact.
    As usual some little person has decided that 115,000 people are not paying taxes but I bet it is nowhere near that number. . . .

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    Mute Reg
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:19 PM

    Well you’re some mug if you did because the tax reliefs for paying money into a pension are pretty good. You should speak to a financial advisor!

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    Mute Eileen Gabbett
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:23 PM

    Yeah right . thanks ! I will pass that on

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    Mute Bernadette Dunne
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:49 PM

    I totally agree Eileen Gabbett can I live in the cave with you

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    Mute DaveC
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:07 PM

    Why should they have to inform revenue and why couldn’t the two departments not share this information in the first place? This is a classic example of incompetence in the public sector. They are both government agencies, so nobody was hiding anything.

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    Mute Ciaran Whyte
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:12 PM

    Ummm because you have to declare all income. Not doing so is fraud. Nobody is to blame but yourself

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    Mute Reg
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:12 PM

    Because the govenment can’t easily track income coming from private sources. It is up to the individual pensioner to complete a tax return if they earn more than a certain threshold.

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    Mute Vincent O'Halloran
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:22 PM

    That’s correct. The revenue get the P60 for anybody on a pension or payroll and hopefully the Family Affairs dept know who they are paying pensions to.

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    Mute DaveC
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:31 PM

    Reg, the income to be declared here is not a private source, it’s a public state pension.

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    Mute Vincent O'Halloran
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:31 PM

    Absolutely

    The sooner the Govt apologise for the pain caused to our OAPs the better

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    Mute Reg
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:38 PM

    DaveC – It doesn’t matter about the souce of the income, if they are earning more than the threshold (about 18k) then they should be completing a tax return. Simple as that.

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    Mute DaveC
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    Jan 6th 2012, 8:17 AM

    So any time there’s a change in the state pension, a 90 year old has to fill out a new form and declare it, am I correct? Or do you think it would be more credible for the two departments to talk to each other in the first place and share the information they both have?

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    Mute DaveC
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    Jan 6th 2012, 8:28 AM

    Also, as I understand the story, the issue is with declaring the state pension amount to the revenue (not a private pension, which revenue already know about). I don’t have the exact figures but as far as I know the state pension is around 230 per week = max 11,960 / yr. The bottom line is that the revenue should know about this as it is income from the state, simple as that.

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    Mute De Bert
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:58 PM

    I’ve already taken a 4k hit out of 150k… I’ve had enuf..

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    Mute Dermot Purcell
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:45 PM

    Sounds like seanies finger prints are all over this one

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    Mute steve white
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:12 PM

    my mother got this letter, she rang the helpline and was told there she didn’t owe anything,helpline person said they never got so many worried calls from people where there turned out to have no problem, she was really worried and upset my parents would be horrified not to complete their taxes properly. this she seems to scatter shot scheme that will scare a lot of pensioners

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    Mute Eileen Gabbett
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:20 PM

    That is the idea …. scare monger enough ,people will ring up and thereby they will catch some .

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    Mute Bernadette Dunne
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    Jan 5th 2012, 9:44 PM

    What a disgrace good grief is there no length the will go before they are stopped

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    Mute Bob Coggins
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:24 PM

    Your right – theres no way of stopping OAP’s….

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    Mute Bernadette Dunne
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:03 PM

    I am referring to the yolks that call themselves “the government” Enda and boys now Brian and boys before them and not forgetting Bertie and his boys,….. Enda and boys are a pure disgrace
    And I do not think for one moment that the pensioners are or ever hid much from the taxman
    Remember who put this country on the map and now Enda is totally intent on destroying this state and it’s ordinary hard working people what have they done to create jobs NOTHING and over taxing income does not take us out OF a recession it’s about time this shower of highway robbers resigned

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    Mute TP
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    Jan 6th 2012, 6:29 AM

    It’s called “self assessment” for a reason. Using the “I assumed” excuse never washed with revenue. Pay your taxes like the rest of us, you’re not above the law.

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    Mute Nigel McArdle
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:57 PM

    Could they not just Write it off as expenses, sure is that not what they would normally do within the walls of the Dáil Éireann for the old timers!

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    Mute Joan Featherstone
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    Jan 6th 2012, 6:38 AM

    I abhor anyone who avoids paying tax they are liable for, but what I was trying to say in a previous post was this. My mother is almost 87, she lives alone, she has a widows pension and a pension my father (RIP) set up. She never, knowingly, would avoid paying tax. Not everyone has fat pensions and fraudster tendencies, some of these people were totally unaware they were underpaying tax! I know that she would be very worried/scared if she received a letter like that, she never owed anyone a shilling, and never ever bought anything she didn’t have the cash to pay for!

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    Mute Jerry Slattery
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    Jan 6th 2012, 7:27 AM

    would you not help your aged old mother to fill out her tax,form ageism is really raising its head here been old does mean been dumb

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    Mute john g mcgrath
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:09 PM

    Next opinion poll should be very interesting !!

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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:51 PM

    Ahh more money for the bond holders…Bet credit union accounts and post office savings are next in line

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    Mute Innishvilla
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:55 PM

    Idiot. Money rightfully due to us taxpayers

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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Jan 6th 2012, 6:13 PM

    my savings which i took out of my wages and put into the credit union or post office is what remains after my wage is taxed.Secondly interest earned is taxed

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    Mute Mark Rodgers
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:25 AM

    In reading all of the Comments on this issue I believe there is a balance between the two sides. On the one hand there is massive sympathy for what are clearly tax defaulters due largely to their age while the other side are hypercritical of what they see as inefficiency within the State administrative systems.
    I do not believe that the average pensioner who owes the State for unpaid taxes was of the opinion that their State payment was tax free. On the other hand the vast majority of these people come from a PAYE background where all taxes due were deducted at source and that does not happen with the combination of a private and State pension.
    Surely the answer here is for the Revenue and Social Welfare to pool resources and deduct all taxes at source. Dare I also suggest that they look forward rather than backwards.

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    Mute Jerry Slattery
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    Jan 6th 2012, 7:34 AM

    love the photo showing the frail old lady holding on to the cup of tea for dear life …..anybody been on a sun flight recently 90% of passengers are what we call in the trade silver travellers all cash rich pensioners A photo from Dublin airport would probably be more appropriate

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    Mute Stephen Johnston
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    Jan 6th 2012, 8:43 AM

    Holidays! The cheek! Imagine working all your life and then expecting to enjoy your retirement – the bastards! They should all sit at home wringing their hands and thinking about what they’ve done until they die and stop being a burden on the bundesbank – a daily trip to Mass is more than enough entertainment for the likes of them.

    And no Jerry, haven’t been on ‘a sun flight’ recently. You?

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    Mute jerry slattery
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    Jan 6th 2012, 9:35 AM

    Stephen I am delighted to see them at the airports and even more so filling up all our NAMA hotels here in Ireland They are getting fantastic values in them at the moment .
    I have an 85 year old Aunt who adores her many breaks away with her mates and long may it last.
    I hope when my retirement comes which is not to far away I can do the same. However people who portray older people as poor weak defenceless people waiting at home to die do them a huge disservice and can undermine there confidence easily
    However you cannot run with the Hares and chase with the hounds . We all have a responsibility to look after our Tax affairs old as well as young and I do think If people have parents who are frail and unable to sort there affairs out for themselves then there Children should help them out and sort it for them

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    Mute john g mcgrath
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:13 PM

    The Benny hill show just got better

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    Mute David Higgins
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    Jan 5th 2012, 10:18 PM

    Hmm, will this make up for part of the tax shortfall we had this year? 115,000 is a lot of people!

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    Mute Eamonn Zaidan
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    Jan 5th 2012, 11:47 PM

    Yup, 115,00 people indeed, now deduct one, that’s 114,999 remaining because my mother got a letter saying she owed Tax when she clearly does not, these letters were sent out in the hope that they would scare people into contacting Revenue, but they might have to try again tomorrow as I believe it was impossible to contact Revenue today, by phone at least anyway.

    Now, let me put it in plain English for you Mr Higgins, they have scared probably 99% of pensioners out there with this letter and I quote 99% because 99% probably try to survive on same said pension that they have already paid into, the 1% are laughing it off as they are well savvy and well informed to not even bother having to ring the Revenue Commissioners.

    What will be interesting Mr Higgins, is the actual monetary achievement of this exercise, taking into account the cost of the paper, postage, labour, energy, blah blah blah. Noonan will of course in his whispers tell us he knew all along what the final outcome would be blah blah blah, but they had to send these letters out to every pensioner out there and play some blame-game exercise with Revenue and DOSP or the wanna be FGer, Ms Burton.

    Of course I do assume that I stand to be corrected but time will tell, and by time, I guess I allude to the time left by this present abortion of a Government referred to as ‘The Coalition’…

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    Mute Eamonn Zaidan
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    Jan 9th 2012, 1:39 AM

    Hmmm, I’m being proven correct in my analysis so far…

    Revenue officials face questioning on letters to pensioners – The Irish Times – Mon, Jan 09, 2012 http://bit.ly/xosuvO

    “Revenue Commissioners chairwoman Josephine Feehily and officials from the Department of Social Protection will face questions from TDs and Senators at what is likely to be a robust meeting of the Oireachtas committee on finance on Wednesday”

    Anything further to add Mr Higgins?

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    Mute Philip Kelly
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    Jan 6th 2012, 11:02 AM

    Jerry
    Sorry I didn’t give you all the details as that is what she did also. You presume a lot .
    Your tone is condescending, and rude and not called for. As my MAMMY would say get some manners.

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    Mute Philip Kelly
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    Jan 6th 2012, 8:29 AM

    Joan I would agree. My mother rang over a year ago and questioned their calculations and estimates and said they were wrong and was told no it has been worked out correctly.
    So now a new tax bill has come, very infair to older people they have no way of getting extra income. If the government has messed up again which is what this is sorry, they should absorb it, it’s the same as the 3.6 billion mistake.

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    Mute jerry slattery
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    Jan 6th 2012, 9:22 AM

    Sorry Philip but your mammy needs to do more than ring .she needs to actually fill out a form with her up to date information.
    The person in the call centre cannot change her details over the phone . Now philip here is another tip for you . why dont you sit down with her and do the whole thing on-line for her it will take you about 15 minutes and is very easy .
    People need to take personnel responsibility instead of just whinging all the time and blaming the Government for what is in most cases a genuine mistake on there own behalf

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    Mute Joan Featherstone
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    Jan 6th 2012, 7:49 AM

    Jerry, as far as I know she don’t get one, and I see her daily, maybe she does, I certainly don’t! As for being dumb, she’s very very far from that, just from an era where you did not question authority, you paid what you owed and never spent more than you had!

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    Mute Jerry Slattery
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    Jan 6th 2012, 8:13 AM

    Just so you will know in future any change in financial circumstances requires all citizens young and old to inform the revenue . as an earlier poster has said that is called self assement . your mother has filled one up in the past if her circumstances have not changed she is fine …if all has not been declared she owes simple as that

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    Mute Marie Carroll
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    Jan 6th 2012, 8:54 AM

    Sick and sicker a nation that abuses the weakest

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    Mute Reg
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    Jan 6th 2012, 10:36 AM

    So a 67 year old on the golf course very other day and not declaring his pensions and other incomes is abusing the weakest is it? Not all pensioners are old and decrepit.

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    Mute David Ganly
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    Jan 6th 2012, 9:17 AM

    The government departments screwed this up. They messed with the wrong people – ie those who have the time to march and complain and vote!

    Remember this is the same civil servants that couldn’t count 3 months ago (missing 3.5billion). I am not sure where people get off labelling pensioners as fraudsters.

    Most of us have mothers / fathers that are or will be affected by this civil service incompetence. Let’s hope they have the foresight to never let this happen again.

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    Mute ponythegringo
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    Jan 6th 2012, 6:51 AM

    they are the generation that supported fianna fail no matter what and the same generation who allowed the church to rape and tortue children, make them pay.

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    Mute steve white
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:37 AM
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    Mute bothyhead
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    Jan 6th 2012, 12:42 PM

    — begin —
    This evening the Revenue said the people affected had either not reported their State pensions to the Revenue Commissioners, had under-reported their value, or had seen their circumstances change in some other way without notifying Revenue.
    — end —

    There is something not quite right here.

    My Mum is one of these 115,000 pensioners. In fact, she received a letter from the revenue commissioners yesterday notifying her of this:

    — begin (letter from revenue) —
    I am writing to you to advise you that we have reviewed your pension details and note that the amount we hold on our records for your Department of Social Protection (formerly Department of Social Welfare) pension was understated. We have corrected the details for 2012 and as a result additional tax will be deducted from your occupational pension or salary cheque. I wish to apologise for any difficulties that this may cause you.
    — end —

    Not only has my Mum declared her DSP and Private pension, but each year she has requested a statement of earnings from both the DSP and her private pension company, and sent both of these to the revenue comissioners. The fact that her records were never updated with this information is not her fault and does not make her fraudulent.
    .

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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Jan 6th 2012, 6:30 PM

    It appears that everybody apart from the highly paid inept managers in the dept of revenue and dept of welfare are aware of the state pension payment and the current payment rate.Yet we have the pensioner been blamed for the incompetence of the revenue and welfare depts .If this was in a properly run business these individuals would be disciplined or sacked for gross misconduct.Funny how yet another failure in the public sector is announced while the government is on christmas holiday.How easy we forget that it was only a month ago it was announced that the dept of finance did a double count of the same €3.5 billion,this was after the dept of welfare admit it paying pensions to people who were deceased.How much longer do we accept us been blamed for some nameles faceless persons laziness in work.

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    Mute Sherbet Bell
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    Jan 6th 2012, 11:08 AM

    I find the comments/views on her incredible, does anyone read anybody else comment/view or really listen before they jump on what word pushes their buttons…..

    There are so much emotional remarks here but very few here see the root of the problems.

    Think of this, if this country was run on an even keeled business and it was your business how would you run it….. Would there paid be shopping days, paid sickness, bonuses, pay rises, any employee benefits?

    Comments such as Stephens “Pity Dept Social Welfare aren’t chasing as vigorously those refuse to work” he has a very point but who is been offered work and refusing it???
    Example: Is it unemployed solicitors? Whom are been offered a dog walkers job?? It doesn’t stand to reason such a job wont pay his/her bills….

    or joans’ I abhor anyone who avoids paying tax” she is also right, I do too, but it wasn’t so very long ago where the revenue dept was owed so such from certain business/men/women that they came to an serious cut in payoff (such as owing 150k getting off with paying 50k)

    or mark’s comment ” I believe there is a balance between the two sides” yes there should be a balance but there is not, I have worked with civil servants (NOT FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE) and its Wrong to tar all with the same brush as some are very diligent in their work unfortunaility they work with others whom are not and face the wrath of their colleagues should they rock the apple cart. I have witnesses with my own eyes, work sent to contract and when the contactor realised it was to be a government body paying the cost of the job doubled (proof I have) and the work carried out inferior.
    I have see some civil servant never take a day sick while their colleagues take beyond and above sick day s some not even recorded ( these same people cause havoc on returning as they weren’t in the decision making and hold up everything, schoolyard games) and don’t get me started on the shopping days they just don’t happen at Christmas

    Yet in the entire above have line management, etc and no-one held accountable.

    those of us whom work for the private sector know your only as good as yesterday and the words such as “we will work him or her out of the business are all too common” or “gross misconduct “a classic in the EAT ,both these terms are alien to the pubic sector as no has been held accountable yet we have politicians, bankers, and high paid civil servants still in jobs and no -one has lost their jobs none of their actions have been found to be gross misconduct.

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