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HOUSING MINISTER SIMON Coveney has said he will not legislate for the water committee’s agreement if it doesn’t include a charge for excessive usage.
The majority of those on the Oireachtas joint committee on the future funding of water services have indicated that they are in favour of abolishing domestic charges and are opposed to charging for the excessive use of water.
In a private meeting, TDs discussed the committee’s draft report with Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and AAA-PBP agreeing that there should be no re-introduction of charges.
“I will not introduce legislation that potentially exposes the country to very severe penalties and fines from the European Commission – I won’t do that,” Coveney told reporters tonight.
EU law
Last year, the European Commission said Ireland will be in breach of European law should it remove the charges completely.
“We have clear advice from Attorney General’s Office, I have legal advice from my own department and the expert commission’s advice that was very clear – and we have a European Commission that has shown flexibility and willingness to work with Ireland, but are also clear that there has to be some consequences for households wasting large amounts of water,” he said.
Coveney said Fine Gael is willing to compromise, but added that other parties have to be prepared to follow suit.
We have compromised on the Fine Gael view very significantly, and we’re asking other parties seeking a working solution to do the same.
“If that compromise involves exposing the State to legal action, I don’t think as an office holder I can facilitate that,” said the minister.
Fianna Fáil’s position
He said Fianna Fáil had hardened its position on the issue, and accused the party of altering its stance on charges in recent days.
“What Fianna Fáil seem to be saying today is that it is okay by them for the general taxpayer to waste water – that wasn’t the Fianna Fáil position until a few days ago.”
Coveney insisted tonight that the work of the committee isn’t finished, adding that he still wants consensus.
When asked what the outcome would be if the committee’s final recommendation was for the total abolition of all water charges, he said:
I would be very surprised if Fianna Fáil asked a government minister to introduce something that was against the AG’s [Attorney General's] advice.
We cannot ignore independent legal advice… it is hugely irresponsible to ask us to do that.
Breaching confidence and supply agreement
Coveney said Fine Gael were not breaching the confidence and supply agreement (the deal between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael which essentially keeps the government in power).
The agreement was never intended to instruct a minister to act contrary to the advice of the Attorney General, he said.
We will continue to abide by it and I hope Fianna Fáil will too.
The agreement states that the government will “facilitate the passage of legislation” for the implementation of the recommendations in relation to domestic water charging (whether it be abolition, a reformed charging regime or other options).
This line was put to the minister this evening and he was asked what would happen if the Oireachtas approved and voted in favour of the abolition of the water charges regime.
“Facilitating is not the same as introducing,” he clarified.
“What I am saying is I cannot introduce legislation that I regard as effectively illegal.”
‘Bullying’ the committee
Sinn Féin spokesperson on water Eoin Ó Broin has accused the minister of “trying to bully the Oireachtas Water Committee”.
Tonight’s intervention by Minister Coveney prior to the Committee concluding our business is wholly inappropriate. He is trying to bully the Committee with exaggerated claims on the supposed illegality of complete abolition of water charges.
While a final decision is expected tomorrow or next week it is clear that the Government is losing the argument.
The minister should stop interfering in the work of the Committee. He should adhere to the process he set up and respect the outcome of the Committee.
He said the minister will have plenty of time to respond to the committee’s final report when it is debated by the Dáil and Seanad later this month.
O’Broin said Coveney’s attempts to influence the outcome of the committee’s deliberations is “wrong and smacks of desperation”.
The committee of 20 TDs is expected to finalise its report either tomorrow or next week ahead of a Dáil vote which is due to take place by the end of March.
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Eu also said vrt is an illegal tax
@bmul: as is concentrated media ownership, transparent tending system is also a must, new whistleblower legislation heralded in eu bu brian (I know) hayes of fg no less, to state but a few obvious facts
And the minimum unit charges for alcohol too. Against EU competition
Wonder will he listen to the EU on the Apple tax issue….
@bmul: Mortgage contracts as used by Irish banks are illegal and contravene EU legislation on consumer protection.
@bmul: the eu have no laws for us to have to pay a property tax so dump the property tax for a water tax or put the property tax in the bin and just accept we already pay for water through general taxation and it would be a good idea if simon the joke was got rid of because he has blown any credibility that Fine Gael can stand up to the Europeans on any thing. It might be time to think irexit.
Seems Dennis isn’t happy that they can’t sell something off to him. Still trying to pay the pied piper.
@bmul: That’s what annoys me about the media, when he came out with this rubbish, why didn’t a journalist say “VRT minister, discuss”.?
I’d say Leo is popping the champagne corks at that one
@Goldberg: probably, as they have a pact to promote each other regardless, if MM ok’s it
Coveney shouldn’t worry too much. Fianna Fáil’s position will have changed again by Thursday, it tends to only last a moment in time.
@Stephen Todd: ff and fg are joined at the hip, make no mistake about that
ff brian cowen, yesterday announced fas.. no IW will be rebranded and charges will be enforced
coveney today cannot go that far ahead…except to say water charges are here to stay
Fine Gael lost the battle and they are soon to loose the war.
@robert lester: fg and ff both ffg, subscribe to water charges, In the absence of a well deserved referendum, lets make it an election issue if they want?
@robert lester: The country lost the battle. How much raw shit has to end up in our seas before you morons realise we have a problem with the water system in this country and it will cost money to fix it.
@Will J. Browne: why not restore proper funding which was cut prior to Hogan announcing IW, a billion would have built many many treatment plants
Loose war on who Robert. Ok I’m being petty. But it would make you think, have they realised they can’t win or stay in power and are making an easy way out for themselves. If only the Irish electorate would vote differently. What am I like?
You think Irish water give a hoot about that?
water charges and sewage should be separated just like in holland and germany. separate companies.
water charges in holland 1.59/m3. ireland 3.70/m3. go reckon sewage charges holland (seperate company) approx 50eur/yr.
water and sewage are 2 different businesses. should be separated like in eu.
@gregory: should everyone in the household piss in a bottle? then the polluter pays principle pays be enacted?
name and shame? pass cards for the sink and toilet at home/rented accommodation?
should the landlord get powers?
can you see where your political friends have led us?
No bother to Coveney contravening European Law though when it comes to Apple not paying its fair share of tax.
@Ian Oh: I knew the apple ruling would come back to haunt them and the vrt. Let him go ahead with what he wants to do and he will be digging his and fgs grave.
They don’t seem to have a problem breaking the SEA, EIA and public participation Directive.
But doesn’t mind paying VRT? Maybe he should arrange a coalition of the damned with the Greens? They love introducing taxes at the behest of EU too! After the next election I fear obscurity will be bursting at the seams with all the pro privatisation of Irish Water parties!
vrt is NOT charged in holland or germany. so cancel it. fairness and better for motor industry.
@gregory: charged here so your point is?
Water has been paid for since the foundation of the State by its citizens.
If the want to levy a seperate charge because of EU rules then they could start by reducing VAT and Car Tax by the same amount at the same time.
Of course that can’t be considered because as we all know it was just a slithering snake like Hogan who came up the plan for extra revenue.
Double taxation will not be tolerated.
Double taxation already exists. You pay income tax. Then with your net income, you buy petrol which has VAT and excise duty. Oh sorry, that’s treble taxation!
covney fg and cowen ff stating water charges are still on their “agenda”
they would drive anybody to think they hate normal joe soap.
We all know who Coveney’s masters are, but sure just try it Coveney & be prepared for a massive backlash! ! Our waters will never be privatize.
Correct. We should all just change our surnames to Bilderberg. It would be nice for Coveney to serve us for once.
@Colette Kearns: He didn’t say anything about privatising it. What they’re discussing is how to pay for it.
@Will J. Browne: now you just revoked your refund !! it is typical pr speak and group think, possibly deliberate, that has us in this situation
Doesn’t matter which one of them gets to drive the train,the Fine Gael corruption will still go unchecked,neither of them will sack anyone involved in ruining Maurice McCabes life.
@awillJ. Browne, no he didn’t (neither did I) but however it was intended to be privatize , it was Phil Hogan that said it. It went something like this ” He wanted the metering system finished in or around 2014 / 2016. So that the company could then be set up for privatisation &” private profit”! There is no doubt about it!
Privatisation was built into the original water services act 2012 and the t&cs of Irish Water.
@ciaran: It’s probably because of groupthink that it’s never occurred to you to consider the damage that will be caused if we don’t face up to the problems with our water system, because your leaders never told you to think about it.
@Colette Kearns: Utter nonsense. The intention was that it could finance itself independently and its debts woudn’t be included in the national debt, something that was necessitated by the state of the country’s finances at the time. Scotland set up Scottish Water years ago and it’s been very succesful so they never felt the need to privatise it. They had scaremongers there too but they were proved wrong.
agree. provincial/municipal water companies only.
@gregory: thank you for your input, the people of Scotland will be made aware
as for you two fg snot balls
@Will J. Browne: Privatisation of the water resource is the bottom line for both FF and FG. They will do and say anything to further this agenda.
@Dave Doyle: You don’t want a privately owned water utility, which is fair enough, but you don’t want a publicly owned one either. What do you want?
Isn’t it just amazing that the government can hide behind European ‘ rules’ when its sees fit, but the Irish banks are allowed to charge variable rates of 4.5% when the European rate is less than 2% across the board. Hypocrisy at its best!
Oh yes we wouldn’t dream of doing anything which contravenes an EU law or challenge the EU unless it might impact a large multinational such as Apple.
I’ve just checked Coveneys bio. He’s as exactly as qualified as I am to comment on the legality of such a move. In my opinion he is wrong. So I guess we should let the courts decide…..
wonder would tv3 like to host a debate with ALL the political sides on the possibility of the introduction of water charges?
I don’t remember seeing a proper debate with all sides represented
Ciaran would you have a problem with lets say 130 liters a day and that been put in legislation on water charges anything over that one should pay..I think our usage is 115 litres appointment now..
@sparky approx
@sparky: read above n below and then summise my reaction/answer, ya little ball of snot
@ ciaran ” I don’t remember seeing a proper debate with all sides involved ” I just asked you a question and that makes me a little ball of snot..you would be great in debate…BTW I didn’t pay the water charges..
@sparky: yea sparky your still a ball of snot, and bet ya did.
@ Ciaran..ok “you’re” but carry on with the insults..idrc. as I stated previously I only asked you a question. I think u need a big cold bath…
@sparky: rude I know but as you want to debate, how urine does the average irish person produce before they have to pay for excessive urine? the gov wants to measure and charge for that too
should average joe ask permission to collect rain water? how much is too much? gov wants a charge
do you think it is right average joe pays for water 2nd hand water meters when new ones were offered for free?
how much intrusion into average joe’s life is too much?
now while you ponder these questions ask yourself what has been happening re all above up until now? and who has paid week in week out, year in year out, for that
@ Ciaran. None of your above questions are relevant to the question I asked, I’m against the way water charges were introduced the sleazines was disgusting, do you disagree with proper legislation been put in place and I’ll hold my breath for that that eventually the people who waste water pay..
@sparky: snot ball, and from your answers a ff leaning snotball ie. lets get rid of IW another words do a fas on it and rebrand.
the game is up and if you need any advice “going forward” snot ball, I am considering charging ff as “we are where we are”, “going forward”……snot ball
Sparky, the problem is that once any charge is introduced for excessive water usage is that the amount considered to be excessive will change over the years until everyone is paying for water. The water tax would not go into water infrastrucure anyway. Its for the banks until such a time as it is privatised.
@sparky: I’ll hold my breath for that that eventually the people who waste water pay..
Hey snot ball, what do you consider wasting water in a family home????????
let me guess you have no answer so will make a pointed remark
@ ciaran if I was a ff leaning snot ball I wouldn’t be asking you that question..their stance “Today…” is get rid of it…but thanks again for answering my question with an insult..
In holland there are 4 provincial/municipal water companies which are well run and charge less than half the IW approved rate of 3.70/m3. but they dont have a car park full of company audi a6 cars either.
vat in irelamd is 23%. ln the uk its 20% amd much cheaper car tax and no vrt on cars.
@ seamus og..that’s why I asked it to be put into legislation..and I do agree that the monies raised probably wouldn’t go to preservation of water, so when I ask the question I mean we need a real debate and make sure whatever money is paid by the wasters of water actually goes back to it..
@ ciaran. Maybe blowing my nose and then washing my hands after it.. People washing their cars leaving the tap running while they update their social media account .
@sparky: hey snot ball, define wasters again? missed that
@ ciaran you probably did..sorry my mistake I was typing to quick for you to read…or you just can’t read and comprehend at the same time.
Illegal to whom, o yes the great IMF.
@Alois Irlmaier: IMF have said we in \Ireland got a shitty deal, our own fg have denied this, should I remind those no believers of ENDAS DEAL? lol if it were not so cruel to this country
We should have an Irish Water debt clock. It must be running to around 10 billion euro by now? A criminal waste of taxpayers money and resources. Make it a sackable offence for gross incompetence and corruption and many of our problems would disappear overnight. If I was a CEO of a large company and I had no punishment for fraud or corruption I would expect the loophole to be exploited by staff and to be out of business within the year. For some reason we allow it in OUR government and when we see the problems it causes we still do nothing, over and over again. Can we the people hire our own legal team and bring a case against our government for not creating legislation that prevents repeated damage to our citizens and our society? Just a thought.
Spineless as usual.. imagine him trying to negotiate on behalf of the Irish people with the great dictators in Brussels.. Simple Simon says..
No charging period excessive use will be lowered, a media campaign of water shortages that targets the wasteful Irish will ensue followed by lowering the quantity of water.
Also congrats to the travellers… FFS!! It will now be a hate crime to defend your property or not give them free stuff, social welfare inspectors and gardai will be brought to court for unfairly targeting the traveller community etc.
Illegal by who, the EU ! so here’s my problem Slovenia another EU country have attached their water to their constitution free of charge. The EU have not instituted proceedings and will not. Coveney seems to have a commercial interest in a privitised Irish Water. As for achieving the leadership of FG he will be lucky to be elected next time.
@Tony Hartigan: They pay water charges in Slovenia so they comply with the EU directives and the polluter pays principle. Ireland appears to be the only country in Europe that has a problem with it. It’s something to do with our culture and the way we view the environment.
Agree with you totally Tony. They want us to be a land of renters. Rent homes, rent water, rent road usage, rent rent rent. We should rant, that’d show them
@Will J. Browne: In Ireland we pay water charges. Payment for water was legislated for in 1997. The big difference here is that both FG and FF are doing all they can, including destroying the water infrastructure, to force the privatisation of the water resource.
Neither FF nor FG have the guts to come out and declare their position in a rightful manner and let the people decide
The Irish people own the resource, no political party and no politician own it.
You cannot sell what you do not own.
@Dave Doyle: If you don’t want a publicly owned water utility, what do you want? You’re a water protester, so you’re the one destroying the water infrastructure. Everyone else is trying to fix it.
This has more to do with irelands culture of corruption and cronyism than it does with eu directives.
Our governments past failures surround our natural resources is deplorable and people are right to be suspicious.
I’ll gladly pay a flat rate when its enshrined in law that it can never increased that the service can never be privatised and that the money paid only ever goes to water and waste services.
He’s completely undermined the credibility of the ‘Expert’ water commission with this statement.
If that’s Fine Gael’s position then why did they allow the commission to go ahead with the report?
This commission was set up by Simon Coveney who remarked at the time:
“I have chosen people who I consider to have the necessary professional expertise in environmental matters, law, economics, the customer perspective, the water sector and the regulatory system, and I have included a mix of both national and international experts,”
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
OUR Water is not for sale guys.. give it up now. No to IW No to water meters. Do yourselfs a favour and stop this madness now.
@Alan Henderson: “John Perkins, Former Advisor IMF.
“My job was to identify countries with resources that corporations covert, like oil and then arrange a huge loan to that country from the World Bank or from one of its sister organisations. The money however would not go to the country, it would go to our own corporations who would make huge profits, but the majority of the people would suffer terrible as a result, because money would be diverted from Education, Healthcare and other Social Services to pay interest on the debt.”
What happened when the IMF moved in and the debt couldn’t be repaid?
“We go back into that country and say, since you can’t pay your debt, sell your resource oil or whatever real cheap to our corporations without any environmental restrictions or, or social regulations. Privatise, sell your electric utilities, your water, sewage systems, your schools, your jails, all your public sector businesses to our corporations, and in the few cases where we failed economic hitman, the jackals went in and still do and aah, they either assassinate the leaders of the country or overthrow them in coups.”
And who invited the IMF into Ireland?? FFFGLAB PARTY
I love this posh boy he just can’t help himself.
Obviously he is losing leadership battle so stick his ore on another loser tying to reignite water charges issue.
Fine Gael love flogging dead horses and making themselves more unelectable than they are already.
Water charges are a dead duck and just shows Coveney’s unsuitability for leadership as he simply does not listen.
Now I hear you screaming Kenny never listens ? Wrong he listens to Finnoula and she was thought by the best the bold Charlie.
Coveney is a posh boy out of his depth in the world of democracy as he likes us Joe public to do as We are told or he will punish us.
Poor Simon is taking the term ‘Simon says’ a little bit too literally.
Won’t matter when the Blouseshirts are headed by Leo
How do ya feel about the VRT being illegal Simon?
He worries a lot about the eu.. Irexit would sort that out Simon
He is an absolute B word.
FG thugs, They set up a commission and now won’t honour its findings, what a shower of B words.
This really is a new low for our Leinster house executives it really is.
We are already paying for it through income tax and other general taxation.
Convey is a green nutter. Supports the pylons and wind farm 100%.
We could have saved a fortune on a Committee and just asked Simon! Why did no-one think of that? FFS. Another idiot onto the breach…
Both ff fg have already done so many spins on this one even compared to a kids ‘ roundabout .. don’t believe the spin .
Excessive use should be charged for.
@Paul: fook off with your pathetic creepy argument, nobody I have ever met can leave a tap running without it starting a row, so excessive by who’s norms and since when did I ever agree to the premise of a second and third charge for water
What exactly is classed as using excessive water? Using a hose a couple of hot days a year to water your garden, over a 365 day period is hardly excessive.
@Paul: Agreed – “polluter pays” – i.e. businesses. Likewise, to be fair, if I don’t repair the leak in my goldfish pond and keep topping it up from the mains (toxic to goldfish and koi, btw) – I should pay for that…
I think excessive usage should receive a warning , maybe a leak, then charge but excessive should be defined and not by the government
It’s just the little guy they will want to target, the ones doing the environment a favour by planting pollen and nectar rich flowers to attract bees, butterflies and other pollinators into the garden and who use a hose the rare occasion that we get a bit of warm weather. If there is money to be made or a way to squeeze more out of you, they’ll do it.
@watersedge: I would nearly go so faras to say the german dail (no clue) which approves our budgets every year still, have told the dail to make up the difference in what they take in compared to what they pay themselves
@Watcher-on-the-Wall: Sarcasm lost…apparently
@ciaran: These people do unfortunately exist. I currently live in Amsterdam, and some time ago a member of parliament (who happened to be in the Geert Wilders Freedom Party) was interviewed on national TV, admitting to running his tap all day to moisturize his allegedly dry house. This caused quite a shock in the country.
For the footage, see http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1389821/688b0155/hoe_groen_is_richard_de_mos_.html at 1m55s.
There’s no pleasing these fg boys… EU bad because they want apple to pay €13 billion in tax due.
Will rigourously fight it costing us the taxpayers probably millions… They don’t care what the EU says.
Water charges .. they will go down on bending knees to do as the EU says.. obey at any cost… Because the EU says something in regards to taxpayers … Government willing to obey.
@LITTLEONE: It’s probably more likely that a successful Frexit referendum by Le Pen in France will push Ireland out of the EU along with the UK, but the government’s water policies might just be next in line to push the issue forward. I wish Fine Gael would have the audacity to stand up to Brussels where it’s needed.
@Paul: Unless you have a swimming pool I can’t see how people could use “excessive water”. And btw if you own a swimming pool you shouldn’t be worried of paying for water.
It’s over ,FF for abolition ends this issue.fg do not want a GE so it will go through or FF will pull the plug.his lies about the EU fines are discusting, general taxation is within EU rules and the public know this thanks to good politicians publishing it for the public.
Let Europe try and IREEXIT will become a reality quicker than our politicians would expect
Once again it’ll be the people of this country that ultimately lose out while the gravy train keeps chugging along!
Water is a human right. This argument just doesn’t cut it. There is no opposition between abolition of charges and allowing for fines for excessive usage. Fair usage of water ought to be as free as fair usage of air.
Have to say…from the pov of those of us who are not fans of Brussels or FG……the idea of fighting an election on “we must impose a domestic water charge ‘cos the EU says so” is a rather appealing prospect.
Bring it on!
Great!
Election ahead….
Lashng down outside and we have to read this sinister rubbish. Please let someone take that joker’s umbrella away until he sees sense.
That’s how the Trumps of the world get into power. The real opinions and feelings of the people are no longer listened to and told they are wrong and that you can’t say what you want to say. Silence the people and you reap what you sew. Oh I’m not talking about this article by the way
Have no doubt this will all be privatised in the future. They did exactly this in the UK
One would really have to wonder why these blue shirts continue to flog this dead horse…one can only assume someone somewhere was promised something really big if this got passed thru
Bye bye SImon!
It’s already happening….! Didn’t I just hear that €xxx million was taken from our road taxes and diverted to support Irish Water?
The Bildeberg turd has gone too far…Election and EirXIT now
Simple Simon Fcuk right off you gormless numpty. Can’t stand the sight of you.
They should abolish water charges to the sick old & poorest people who are paying for group water schemes in rural areas. FG voters should eat their words¬ get any refunds&keep paying for what they wanted&the 75% of voters who voted against charges should be refunded now.
Great, he is claiming to be a man of principle! In that case he should resign, if he feels he can’t act on behalf of, or in the interest of the people of Ireland.
Only FG could regard Leo or Simon as intelligent and electable.
They’re both fools. Leo is an ideologically extreme fool and ould Simo is a careerist fool.
I agree with Fine Gael labour and the Green Party that water should be charged in some form but abolition is wreckless and populist and it’s not going to deal with the problem with water quality typical paddy wants to pay for nothing
Roger paddy pays for everything on the double
Good to see Coveney showing some integrity while the opposition shamelessly debases itself. It’s a timely opportunity for him to put what’s right for the country and our environment ahead of base political interests and prove himself a leader.
He’s just put himself out of the running as our next leader.
@Will J. Browne: Integrity and doing what’s right for the country? Ha ha good one, Fine Gael do what’s best for themselves and their rich buddies.
@Dave Murray: Is environmentalism a rich man’s game now? When did it become anti-establishment to fight against measures to protect the environment?
@Will J. Browne: tree hugger much? when and where was your last “demo” lol
@ciaran: Typical water protester comment: – sod the environment, we’re not paying!
@Hello there friend: It would appear so. He really needs to rethink his stance if he want’s to be a successful career politician,.
Will J. Browne. Is it so hard for you to understand we already pay.
@ray.farrelly: It’s hard to understand that people are still using that idiotic argument. Even Right2Water aren’t that shameful anymore: the privatisation boogyman is their thing now.
Will J Browne. Are you saying we have never paid for water in this country???
What about comments section on the ethnic majority ?????
Make people pay for abuse and waste of the water service that we all use.
Let the rest of the “No Pay” crowd appreciate that they maybe getting away with “Free Water” but they will pay in many other ways, Tax on this that and the other won’t be long coming about, “The Fools”
Convey is a clown at best… its amazing what they deem right and wrong when it suits them … bunch of idiots
Maybe I should re-phrase that, was he seen coming out of a Builerberg meeting in London? I saw a photo
Isn’t Covney controlled by Builderberg?
have your say