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The Daily PollA NEW LAW allowing homeowners to defend themselves in their home has come into effect today.
The Criminal Law (Defence and Dwelling) Act 2011 allows for a person to use reasonable force in defending their home in order to protect themselves and their property. The Act says that a person is not obligated to retreat from their home if there is an intruder.
The law was drafted in the aftermath of a heated national debate following the jailing of farmer Padraig Nally who shot dead John Ward on his premises in 2004. He later had his manslaughter conviction overturned.
Justice Minister Alan Shatter has said the law is “not a licence to kill” and advocates argue that the law allows for force in proportion to the threat someone perceives they are under. But the Irish Council for Civil Liberties says the law “insufficiently” protects the right to life for householders or intruders while some fear it could lead to intruders being more likely to carry weapons.
Today, we’re asking do you agree with the new law?
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It’s not fair that if someone should break into my home that I am unable to defend myself HE’S the one committing the crime
Or she is! (life of brien style)
We live in a modern society were women have every right to be criminals and can do it equally as good as men!
I wouldn’t like to be trick or treating today!!
You’ve had the right to defend yourself in your home with reasonable force (ie. exactly what this new law “gives” you) since the 1300s Luke. It’s been in case law* since long before the founding of the state. All this law does is move it from case law to statute law — so in practical terms, it doesn’t do anything at all.
* See DPP-v-Barnes : http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/23fd4a34bad801d980256ec50047a0a8/aded5c6b04f391478025725d00516c14?OpenDocument
what happens if you are not able to defend yourself ?
@ damien, while it may not be politically correct to say that the vast majority of criminals are male, it is statistically correct.
I sure do agree, anyone who tries to break into my home is getting a karate chop to the face, if I kill him stone dead tough titty!
If you kill him stone dead all the better, one less piece of vermin to worry about.
You’re going to jail then diarmuid.. And that’d probably be murder in your case
@Soupy you won’t be jailed for self defence .A dead body does’nt get to challenge your word in court.
You can kill someone with a karate chop to the face! That’s awesome were you thought by Chuck Norris?
Steady on there Soupy it’s Julian killed the scumbag I’m just saying the more that might be killed because they decide they don’t want to work and instead will steal your stuff and potentially harm you and yours the better, that’s all.
Not only that …we should have the right to keep the body to sell for parts! LOL
Scumbag broke into my house, so I broke his arm, rest assured that he won’t be doing it again, Cops congratulated me!
Well done
Now you can actually kill him, he’ll defiantly think twice about doing it again
They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That’s* the *Chicago* way!
(To be said in a Scottish/Irish accent)
No, because the term ‘reasonable force’ is too ambiguous. If you feel that your life, or your family’s life is in danger – then you should be able to defend them, to the death if necessary. Americans have at least this much right. Anyone breaks into my home, I’m taking an iron bar to them and not stopping until I feel they are no longer a threat to me.
Don’t want to be hit by an iron bar? Don’t break into my home. An easy choice if you ask me.
Well said!
-off topic….is that Cornellius the Crow as your avatar??love him!
Indeed it is Julian!
Reasonable to hit him/her with an iron bar..but beating some to death one an inch of their life with an iron bar is unreasonable
Having a strange person in your house in the middle of the night, with unknown intentions is a very unreasonable situation! We can of course pontificate about what we might do in the situation, and advocate the correct level of physical action to thwart off an attacker – But I find that in the heat of the moment, all that shite is out the window – and it’s you versus the unknown.
This of course can all be avoided by not breaking into my home.
i agree with you sean in principle – if someone breaks into my house they should take whatever comes to them!
but in reality i also agree that the law in principle should value life above most things – so in principle does someone who breaks into a house deserve to die? i dont really think so.
the example is where u wake up with someone downstairs in your house – now if you know they are downstairs can you really say you need to go down there and attack them in order to defend your family? (assuming for example you warn them that you are armed and will shoot if they come upstairs).
overall i think i’d agree that most things are reasonable if fair warning is given – but this shouldnt be a licence for someone to whip out the shotgun and go mad either (which is my perception of the US rule).
If they are worried about will the homeowner use reasonable force maybe they should just realise they don’t have the right to someone else’s possesions and not break in.Pretty simple concept.
I dunno, as I read this it said “the law allows for force in proportion to the threat someone perceives they are under.”, now I would imagine any self respecting burgular or home invader type would carry a weapon of some sort, be that a screw driver, a crow bar or a knife. If they enter your home with any such weapon you could, legally, perceive the threat to you and your family to be quite serious at this point and presumably you could use a similar threat back – and stab the fooker. I’d have no problem with that.
Bear in mind last week in the same situation you’d have to wake the entire family up, ask the same burgular would he just step aside there while you march everyone outside, oh and would he mind not shitting on the furniture. Thank you. I much prefer fighting fire with fire.
Sean O Briain …What’ happens if the intruder takes the iron bar off you and uses it on you !!! Use something that that has a handle on it so you get a good grip of it !!!
Hi Sean; when my (now 27 yr old) son was 6 months old, I & my sister & flatmate were awoken by someone trying to break down our front door. My fear turned to terror when the front window came in; but then the terror was replaced by the greatest mist of anger I have ever felt and I ended up chasing him with a floor brush down the street – if I’d got close enough, I’d have broken that brush off him – and if I’d had anything stronger than a floor brush, I’d have grabbed that instead. I would;ve killed him really. That to me was reasonable. How dare that bollix break into my home (although it was a horrible phone less flat at the time and before mobile phones) – I’d do the same again. – tho I’d call the cops first if I could at all.
Somebody comes into your house and you have kids in it to protect. Please can they explain how the word reasonable can apply. Do you start talking to them first to assess what they might do… “Could you please advise what are your intentions with my house so I can judge how I should react”… In fairness
Whatever a normal person considers reasonable, judges are human beings too yano!
It’s the nature of law. The court has to have some criteria by which to make decisions. If reasonable force is permitted, it will be left for the jury, with guidance from the judge, to decide what would be reasonable in the circumstances of a case. And whether or not that was exceeded. If someone is convicted of excessive force, the sentence will be made in consideration of mitigating circumstances- level of perceived threat, other vulnerable people in the house, etc. While we are all likely to be unreasonable when in such a threatening situation, the law can only judge us on our actions and how they conform to law. Or we could do away with rule of law. Maybe return to rule by the big man or something…
Exactly…if for example: A young man living alone in a small flat with only himself and his laptop to protect then making a direct effort to kill the intruder would perhaps be seen as excessive. If that young man had a child in the house, or was staying with an elderly person he could be given more leeway by the Judge and Jury in the event he ended up killing the intruder. It really would depend on the circumstances.
As for claims it would lead to criminals arming themselves better prior to entry…it raises a difficult question. Would it perhaps have the opposite effect and serve as a deterrant if they knew people may feel more empowered to defend their home…or are these criminals totally above that worry and generally ok with the prospect of more violence? Maybe there should be research done into what percentage of burglaries are perpetrated by armed amoral thrillseekers (looking for trouble)…versus for example more economically focused criminals (generally uninterested in getting involved in fisticuffs with the tenant)?
“Reasonable” is construed as “what seemed reasonable and necessary for self-defence at the time, to the defendant, who had imperfect knowledge and was under stress”. It’s been that way for as long as we’ve had case law. Again, see DPP-v-Barnes: http://www.courts.ie/judgments.nsf/bce24a8184816f1580256ef30048ca50/aded5c6b04f391478025725d00516c14?OpenDocument
If you want to know what “unreasonable” would be, read Mark Steel’s article in the Independent a few years back when the UK was debating this: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/how-much-force-is-reasonable-to-stop-a-burglar-484862.html
Basicly, it’s reasonable to defend yourself, whatever it takes; it’s unreasonable to then go on to try to teach the attacker a lesson. So knocking the burglar over the head and rendering him unconcious wouldn’t get you in trouble; tying him up would probably be okay; throwing a bound, unconcious burglar into the repair pit in a garage, soaking him in petrol and setting him on fire would probably constitute “unreasonable force” (and yes, that’s a real case from the UK).
If someone comes into your home uninvited they deserve everything they get, should be no questions asked.
Perhaps, but I prefer Eamonn’s response and action – reasonable force. The penalties for burglary do not include the death sentence.
Maybe if the penalty was 10 years behind bars we wouldn’t be having this discussion. When are we ever going to punish crime in a fitting manner?
When you shoot the intruder, always fire a shot in to the ceiling, so that when cops come, you refer the hole in the ceiling to the warning shot.
Your home is your castle, if some dirty smelly scumbag enters my house and I’m in it! “Reasonable force” will be utilised upon said scumbag! The court system in this country won’t give him a proper sentence, as they think being on drugs/alcohol is an excuse to do burglaries, so time in hospital will suffice!
Hell yeah,I put everything into my home and have things that can never be replaced. No one should be able to come in and take what they want while I have to run out the back door and leave them to it. I’ve been in a house when it was being broken into,I defended it then and I will defend it again,difference is that next time they will have a real reason to leave fast! I refuse to stand by while someone might harm me or mine
Fair play to you, and I couldn’t agree more. Give ‘em Hell.
‘Things’ can always be replaced.
“Things” like a lung, a kidney, a spleen, the odd arm or leg, a liver, maybe an eyball…
Looks like an overwhelming YES.
Delighted to see this development.
55 burglars dont agree with this law..
This is my house and i have to defend it…. Don’t get scared now – Macaulay Culkin 1990
I agree with this 150% I have been broken into twice while i sleep! Now I sleep with an axe and a hunting knife beside my bed and wake up every night when I hear the littlest of noises.
Some would say I am psychologically messed up due to this!
What I want to know is…… Who cleans up the blood after they take his body away???
I’d happily whack an intruder with whatever I can get my hands on so I can get my family to safety (with or without this law) but I wonder where do you stop? If you only whack them once they’ll get back up just as you get to the door (happens in ALL the moovies so it’s got to be true) If you hit them more than once then you could be seen as using unreasonable force right? Guess the outcome of your case depends on how much into horror movies your judge is!
About damn time!!
Every criminal now deserves most if not all retaliation they get from the homeowners they are robbing.
The gentleman from the bleeding heart council of civil liberties had me laughing so hard tea came out my nose, when he said this would just encourage burglars to bring weapons. They already do. How many home invasion victims have been assaulted with burglary tools?
The 20 people that have voted no so far. I wonder if they’re thieves?
Canadians, surely Canadians.
Up to 56 thieves now!
Doesn’t go far enough IMO – how we got to the point of having to pass a law to give the victims of crime some semblance of protection is beyond me.
As an American, I have always lived with the idea that you have the right to be secure in your home. Most states do have a reasonable force standard. You are not allowed to booby trap your home, but an argument is certainly to be made if you shoot someone coming at you in the dark. I personally have been a victim of a home invasion, waking up to a perp at the foot of my bed. I didn’t keep a handgun due to my Irish temper, and in that case my screaming was enough to send them off. The practical matter of shooting someone in your home is that nobody wants a dead body in their home, you just want the person out.
Wendy, we’ve had the same level of protection under the law as you describe since the 1300s in this country. This new law doesn’t change the situation, it just moves it from case law to statute law. It’s a PR stunt, nothing more.
Nothing worse than a thief. Hurley to the crown if they ever step foot in my nest.
The most important part of this new law is that if I have to defend myself from a burglar who has broken into my house, then I won’t be prosecuted.
If a crimial breaks into you home he/she needs to know there could be serious issues to their physical health.Far bigger incentive to criminal not to break into someones home than the usual slap on the wrist from a judge.To all the Do Gooders out there Cop The F*** On.These people ain’t breaking into homes for a social visit.
so does this mean they should ensure they come well armed themselves?? in case a homeowner confronts them with a weapon?
@Rob you tell me but i’ve been robbed twice while i was at home not fun there will not be a third time.Is your suggestion just cower in a corner and hope they go away?
No Norman my point is that when it comes to being a scumbag – i’m pretty sure they’re better at it than we are! so all these people saying they’d whip some ass need to be very careful!
if it ever gets to a situation where people arm themselves and defend their houses – the only obvious impact i can see if that the robbers would arm themselves better!
not belittling your robberies – but what would you really have done if you disturbed them? Got a screwdriver to the chest maybe?
One of the few speaking sense Rob..
As i have stated before on similar threads, people should like a fire have a plan in place. In case of an intruder the kids should be told to lock their doors and wait for mum and dad to call them. The parent(s) should call the gardai and should ALWAYS have some form of protection in their room. Me personally i have a gun safe with a legally held firearm and if needs be i will shoot an intruder and lose no sleep. You can always say they had a knife from the kitchen or tried to take your weapon. Just my opinion but if others want to roll over and cower good luck.
i love that you think its important to have a legally held firearm – but that its not important whether someone is a threat to you when you kill them!?
Thanks Rob very kind of you to say, i appreciate the support…
I have a plan. It’s called crack his fucking head open with my Louisville slugger.
Rob, when they set foot in your house, they become an immediate threat, no questions asked. And the threat needs to be eliminated.
Defend your castle !!!!
Any inruder gives up his rights to civil liberites when he breaks into somebody’s home..in my opinion. Householders have the right to defend themselves at last. Burglars beware we are waiting for you!
Incidentally how many of us wouldnt try to phone for help first if we had time…
It is a step in the right direction.
A man’s home is their castle and they should have a right to defend it and themselves.
Well over due – although I don’t think it will deter the people (scum) in committing these types of crimes.
What I’d have liked to have seen go hand in hand with this measure is the capability for a judge to add a increase in sentencing for any instances of such crimes where the victim is not capable of using reasonable force against an intruder – elderly, disabled etc.
Gotta at least try and place some disincentive in there for criminals that select vulnerable targets.
Good point
Everybody is going on about how they would smash the robbers head in. Do you really think you would? I’m trying to imagine it. I’d be scared shitless and I’d be afraid they had other people waiting outside or in another room. And think about it I am a law abiding citizen and i don’t break into people’s houses or commit come so I don’t have any weapons or iron bars or whatever. I’d also e scared that they would grab it from me and hit me back. I’m just trying to be real here. Most of us would be scared and wouldn’t have the weapons . I don’t want dangerous weapons in my house anyhow just in case. I don’t know what I would do. Grab my children and run and call the guards I think in all honesty. Or cower in my room and hope they leave fast. Maybe I’d suprise myself and use a frying pan to the back of the head or try some of the home alone tricks!!!
But that’s where us men come in handy ;)
Many household items can double as a weapon, an alarm clock to the chin for example (make sure you unplug it first).
If I heard someone downstairs I’m gonna head down with a hammer or something whilst either shrieking like a banshee or growling like a wild animal, I don’t care how hard you are, if you’re in a stranger’s house and heard that you’d be gone like a flash!
Well Regina, I was at home by myself and was in the bath (11.30am) one day last year. Someone kept ringing the doorbell and I chose to ignore it, I reckoned if it was someone I knew they would ring the phone to see if I was in. Eventually after about 3 minutes of constant doorbell ringing I decided to answer it. I threw my bathrobe on went down the stairs, looked out my spy hole and saw 2 scummers and at that moment, one was taking a large screwdriver out of his sleeve. I always thought that if I was home alone and someone tried to break in I would be shitting bricks…..but in reality I was fookin fuming, I flung my door open and the pair of scummers ran away and if I’d been dressed properly I’d have gone after them, I was furious. I think that any woman who lives on her own has the right to take the life of any intruder in her home because as women we have the added stress of knowing that we could be raped as well as being beaten up and possibly murdered. I think in England the law states that if there is an intruder downstairs, you have the right to go down and beat the crap out of them, tie them up and wait for the police, if however, they proceed up the stairs where your family is you have the right to use extreme measures and if that results in the death of the scumbag so be it.
It’s about bloody time! It’s ridiculous to think that someone can intrude your home, the place that most people feel the safest in the world. If anyone enters your property uninvited you should have every right to protect yourself, your family & your property, by whatever means.
Hopefully this new legislationis going to Be the rain that wipes the scum of the streets
So am i able to protect my home from dirty lying Politicians come next election. Canvessing could be fun at last.
Shame on me eh? Thats the first thing that came into my head upon reading the heading.
My first thought was – so now they’re passing on home security to the general public – makes sense for them I suppose – Garda stations being closed; no new recruits, cuts in all service budgets – they just want to privatise everything – including home security it seems.
Ask yer man Nally in Mayo.
Anybody that breaks into your house deserve what they get
Your tv, your stereo, your cash…
That’s the job good woman yourself
http://m.yahoo.com/w/news_america/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder-911-operators-okay-091106413.html?orig_host_hdr=news.yahoo.com&.intl=us&.lang=en-us
Wow, I didn’t expect that strong majority.
You can connect all inside door handles to 240v without protection.
You can do as you like inside your home except electrify the outside handles. Pavey broke in and electrocuted himself! Yeah and?!
I wasn’t there, house was locked, Goodbye.
If some scumbag ever breaks into my flat, he’ll get one hell of a beating. I’m not a particularly big guy, but adrenaline does wonderous things. In that kind if situation it’s hard to ponder over the legality of how hard you can hit them. It’s a case of instinct, natural law.
While I welcome the new law and think you should be able to defend your home, I have found, from been burgled on numerous occasions that discretion is the better part of valour. We all think that we will react in a certain way but until we are in the situation we don’t know what we will do. Your life and your loved ones lives are more important then a few replacable material posssessions.
“The Irish Council for Civil Liberties says the law “insufficiently” protects the right to life for householders”
Does anyone else find this line confusing? Its a law that allows someone to protect their own property so how does it insufficiently protect the right to life of householders. Surely it sufficiently protects it because it gives you the right to defend yourself, like the case of Padraig Nally? Like, if someone breaks into your house with the intention of killing you before robbing you, what good is a law that sufficently protects your right to life, like that will stop them?
Unless what is mean by it is “it insufficiently protects the right to life of intruders”? In which case the Irish Council for Civil Liberties can (insert four letter expletive here) right off.
Perhaps the council mean that because of the perceived increase in rights for homeowners burglars will go to greater lengths to get what they want because they’ll think now that theres more chance that a homeowner will be armed i.e. before they thought they’d get away with it, now they’ll think i better bring a knife and that could be more dangerous for all concerned including the homeowner…….perhaps
I remember a similar case in the uk with a mr.martin a farmer who shot dead one intruder and maimed another one and was jailed and eventually released after an uproar from the public-I agree with this law-what is reasonable force? That’s the part that homeowners will ask themselves,do we all arm ourselves in the belief that somebody may attempt to break in?..
homeowners self-defence law? I wonder does that apply for tenants I don’t have to call the landlord to kik hes/her *%^$% do I?
This is not ground breaking to be honest, the Act is generally a clarification of the legal position which has existed for years.
It’s only for new home owners?
:P
Defend your castle
When you shoot the intruder, always fire a shot up in to the ceiling afterwards, so that when cops come, you point to the hole in the ceiling, as the warning shot.
No shoot the intruder twice he didn’t heed the first warning shot.Don’t ruin your ceiling.
So can I now shoot visitors who happen to annoy me and say afterwards they were trying to rob me? Septic tank inspectors, anyone?
Seriously, thiugh, the Nally case is not a useful illustration of the principle. In no way does shooting someone in the back as they are leaving your property constitute ‘defense’.
I would agree in most respects but I would be very conscious of the fact that potential intruders could become more violent . Violence always breeds more violence .
In fairness if someone breaks into your home it’s probably not Mary Poppins. If you can’t safely remove your family from danger, remove the intruder’s likelihood of reoffending…with a golf club.
Certainly!!
Can we use it, if a Thieving Politician or Bank Representative calls to our door????
Can’t say I’m remotely reassured. This law basically encourages burglars to break into houses with better weaponry on their side – something that would outdo the bread-knife/hurley/bedside lamp coming their way.
Not many things out do a shotgun.
Must pick one up next time I’m in Tesco, so.
We have a heavy duty hammer action drill with a 24 inch drill bit attached beside our bed…..no one will be getting anyfurther than 2 feet towards us, otherwise its scrambled brain or scrambled innards for any thieving scumbag who invades our home
“drafted in” after an incident in 2004…. So glad to see the government only took 6 and a bit years to get the finger out about it!!!
If the courts did their job and properly punished offenders this shouldn’t be an issue.
The problem with Ireland is we have a LEGAL system, not a JUSTICE system….
Of fu*king course!
batter the shite out if the intruder, then get them on the stairs, call the pigs and your sorted. the intruder was on the stairs when you accosted them, obviously intending harm… no court in the land would send you down.
surely the bood spatter patterns would give you away?? or have i been watching too much csi?
Hmm, that’s a very tough one, pick up a hammer or a telephone when you see a burglar in your house?
When a person brakes into someone’s home. what do they expect. Of course the home owner has the right to defend their home. If a person possesses a gun or other and they use it. The bugler knows the consequence’s. He should think very carefully before he tries to brake in to somebody’s home.However we see in some cases that the law could be on the intruders side depending on the outcome.This new law has to be analysed very carefully. It does not give a person Car blanch to mane or kill the intruder.
Break, not brake!
If you catch an intruder downstairs:
1. Beat them unconscious.
2. Then drag the intruder upstairs and beat them again.
3. Then drag your intruder back downstairs to the original spot.
4. Tell the cops you encountered the intruder initially upstairs where you defended yourself.
5. You then made an attempt to escape and the intruder chased you downstairs threatening (to kill etc.) you so you defended yourself again.
6. At all times keep stating that you were in constant fear and certain that the intruder was going to harm you and your family.
7. Job done.
You can do as much damage as you like and not a court in the land will convict you.
What a moron
It depends on who is defining the word ” reasonable”.
I’ll happily discuss reasonable force with a thieve with a 12 gauge in my hands.
It’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I’ll take my day in court thanks. If you use a weapon to defend your self use it fast WITHOUT warning and with aggression. Attack with overwheleming force and even multipile threats can be driven off or over come. But if you wave a weapon around and seem reluctent to use it, It will be taken from you and used on you.
Will be interesting read the death Section in the Limerick papers
Someone broke into one of my young relatives home, upstairs,the babies were in there beds asleep,the intruders” two men” stole money and Christmas presents,and more, in a situation like this you could not be responsible for your actions.
What was the law before this?
UK have a similar position on provocation and self defence
Why is this an issue? There always has been a right to use reasonable force to protect yourself and others. Each case will still have to be looked at in it’s entirety.
I think the law was you could only defend yourself only if it is upstairs in your home and now downstairs as well you can actually kill them if necessary.
At least that way there not going to come back for you
What if you live in a bungalow?
Think of it as on-the-job rehabilitation for criminals. We might have less repeat offenders as a result.
Protection of the person and their property is of paramount importance and cannot be understated. A persons home should be their castle and they should be free to enjoy it without living in fear.
Meant intruder sorry about typo
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