Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
THE COMMISSION OF Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes might be expanded to include more institutions, according to a report from the Irish Times this morning.
The current terms of reference, or the guidelines for what the inquiry will look into, will focus on 14 mother and baby homes and four county homes.
But after the confirmation that a ‘significant’ amount of foetal and children’s remains were found in a sewage system near the Tuam mother and baby home, the government is considering expanding the terms of reference to include more institutions.
According to the Justice for Magdalenes research organisation, there are 180 institutions, agencies and individuals who were involved with unmarried mothers and their children.
The Coalition of Mother and Baby Home Survivors say that approximately 35,000 women and girls went through nine mother and baby homes, including the one at Tuam, between 1904 and 1996.
But the Commission, which began its work in 2015, would need more time to look at all the evidence, meaning more time would be needed to reach a conclusion (and find out who’s responsible, if anyone).
So we’re asking: Do you think the mother and baby home inquiry should be expanded?
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Bleeding knob, what about people under 60 who are carers for people over 75 and are vulnerable? Do we just catch it and stay away from them dir 14 days and hope they can fend for themselves?
@Olivia Smith: You could try physical distancing and hand washing. Nobody is advocating that you go around rubbing up against covid patients.
@Olivia Smith: This Swedish gentleman forgot that this is not Sweden with taxes as high as one meter below the sky. Irish hospital do not cope well in a normal situation. Here with the spring numbers the hospital’s will be colged. And there will be deaths as in UK or US. Sweden as far as I remember for last few years is fortifying it’s foods with vitamine D also. …. So yes. … Thanks for your advice.
@Olivia Smith: It’s not even that. My dad and I are both under 60. I’m higher risk than him. Mum is over 60 and very high risk, due to multiple factors. We are working to keep ourselves safe, in order to keep HER safe.
I don’t wwant to get it anyway, because I am prone to respiratory problems at the drop of a hat anyway, and I’m obese… fairly fit, but still obese. Lost a nice bit during lockdown, actually, lol.
@Olivia Smith: 33%of adults in Ireland have night blood pressure an indicator of had outcomes ICU and death. Sweedes practiced eugenics up to the latec1970s.
@Mirabelle Stonegate: fair play.
@Adam Hernes:Sod the article. Straight to the comments!
@Col de Gal: That’s great bit as we all know there is transmission in the community and it’s not known where it has originated. You obviously don’t have someone old and vulnerable to care for so do one.
@Olivia Smith: so you expect the whole country to grind itself to a halt over your predicament?. You could always quit or isolate yourself this is the line of work you choose to do.
@Adam Hernes: I could take give a flying rats about taxes. I’m more concerned about keeping my dad alive and as his carer I definitely can’t afford to get this and leave him for 14 days. He’d be dead in that time.
@Eileen O’Sullivan: Sorry I cant understand what that says.
@Mirabelle Stonegate: I’d suggest that all the people who agree with this method go to a remote island, give it to each other, wait the isolation time then come back. See how they get on with the long term affects. Soon shut them up. I’m sick to death hearing about just let everyone catch it and sure if the old or vulnerable get it so be it. This virus has shown there are an awful amount of very selfish people in Ireland. Especially the commenters in the journal.
@Jordan Osullivan: No I do this on top of my work. Very quick to presume.
@Olivia Smith: It’s not known where it originated because our contact tracing system refuses to ask. And it can be absolutely rampant in the community and you still won’t get it if you keep your distance and sanitise. It’s not rocket science.
@Col de Gal: If it not rocket science how the hell are people getting it in the community if they are hand washing and distancing? Don’t speak to me like you are of a higher intelligence.
@David Slevin: Are you glad you came straight to the comments? Are they to your standards?
@Olivia Smith: Yeah common sense comes into play. If you care for someone at risk you have to consider yourself at risk and not go to pubs or restaurants. No need to close them. You just dont go. Are you actually a carer? Scary….
@Olivia Smith: Maybe they just aren’t distancing and hand-washing? But that doesn’t prevent you from doing those things, does it?
@Lee Galiezitte: I dont go to pubs or restaurants so put that in your pipe and smoke it. Another ashole too quick to presume.
@Col de Gal: Are you thick or something?
@Olivia Smith: One of us is.
@Adam Hernes: Hate to break it to you Adan, but there’s a large cohort of middle-higher income earners in Ireland paying higher taxes than Sweden, the Irish tax institute publish annual report which demonstrates this every year.
I moved from Sweden back to Ireland 10 years ago and I’m paying more tax in Ireland than I would in Sweden on my salary.
@Olivia Smith: so what’s the problem then? Just use common sense and you and yours will be fine. Dont expect your hand held through this. Time to pull up socks and take personal responsibility rather than whine like child. Peace and love :)
@Lee Galiezitte: Since when is wanting someone you love to be protected whinging? I’d say it’s you and the likes of you with selfish ways need to pull up the socks and think of others.
@Jordan Osullivan: Its not just Olivia’s predicament, its the predicament for around 40% of the population who are in the high risk category.
@Col de Gal:
@Col de Gal: don’t forget if u have it u might get very sick yourself !! And even with masks and social distancing – there is food to be cooked etc and who in reality is going to feel any way comfortable caring for elderly / vulnerable person knowing they are positive ??!! Come on!
@Col de Gal: i dont think many people actually read the article because if they had, the revelations within-what an eye opener! The shambolic, absolute and utter nonsense the government and NpHeT have been at! Anyone could have read out those numbers each evening and blindly pointed blame at the whole society, anyone. Experts at nothing in this scenario, i cant believe what I read
@Olivia Smith: so protect them. If they cocoon and you dont expose yourself to the virus there is no issue. I literally dont understand what your problem is! What are my selfish ways exactly? I havent restricted my life but used common sense and wore a mask and guess what??? No issues. No Corona. No problem. If you need the law to protect you from the virus, you’re not very bright.
@Olivia Smith: so self isolate with u dad. The country does not need to grind to a halt. How do you assume we will continue paying for one of the most expensive public service sectors globally.
@Olivia Smith: wah wah wah whine whine boring whine
Eh no thanks I am young ish healthy ish and I don’t want this because nobody knows what the long term affects are!
@Fi Wyse: the median age of mortality in Ireland is 84. Average life expectancy in Ireland is 82.
@Fi Wyse: Im not too sure what youre finding issue with? Theyre saying that protecting the vulnerable is most important but that doesnt mean under 60’s all start collectively hugging eachother all day long, we continue as we are, be cautious with over 60’s eyc and stop draconian measures I.e shutting down the entire economy. It also gives insight to the fact our contact tracing is completely useless – 50% of close contacts not contacted and the 50% that are, are contacted by day 7. They dont collect the data of where the person infected was because they say they cant afford to, so why all the finger pointing at different settings? Shows that NPHET hadn’t a bloody clue what they were on about and also shows all they tried to achieve was scare people at every turn to cover themselves. Its an eye opening article
@Fi Wyse: But we’ll be expected to take a vaccine rushed through approval without knowing what the long term effects will be!
@Fi Wyse: what are the long term effects of a sunken economy?
@Paul O Mahony: I’m assuming that’s the rate now. What will it be in the future?
I’ve been very unlucky with my health despite my best efforts am I not allowed be concerned and want to look after myself?
@Fi Wyse: just read my message again. The average age of those who die from Covid are 2 years older than the average age of life expectancy. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that even if you are young with underlying conditions that Covid isnt as dangerous as people believe.
@Daimhín De Naois: a very informative article. NPHET themselves admitted last week that they can’t be sure house parties are the source. If the track and trace aren’t being implemented then how the hell can they know where something is originating? Protect our elderly at all costs but our younger generation need to be able to live their lives too. As has been repeatedly said the mental health casualties from this are only going to get worse. Don’t let it be another typically Irish thing of years down the line they’ll say oh we should’ve done this or that..
@Babs McMahon: I fully agree with you! Clearly most people didnt read the article before commenting! Its an absolute eye opener!! They were covering themselves and it was officially just ‘scare mongering’ with all that finger wagging, due to their lack of action. Holy smokes like, i cant believe what I read! They had no idea all along “dont hug your family members” “stay away from…” …everything, basically, all because their contact tracing is non existent and yeah, can you believe they dont even ask where the infected person was?? Just, amazing, absolutely bloody typically Irish ‘experts’ and Government ineptitude! Im literally in shock. I cant get my head around it. If they hadn’t lost the people, looking at that article, they certainly have now… if the people actually read it! Youre probably right too, it will be the usual ‘oh we should have done everything we said we were gona do at the start and didnt’, like always, no accountability and no responsibility, great at pointing blame though. After reading that, f@uck NPHET, the Government and their absolute uselessness. Just amazing
So we’ve come to this,
We’ve become so selfish we are going to sacrifice over 60s and ignore the risks of this virus
@Barry: Not even over 60s, the distribution of vulnerable in Ireland is spread across every age group. My sister is 18 and likely would struggle very hard with this
@Barry: This is one person’s opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. Doesn’t mean anyone is actually going to take her opinions on board. Interesting to note that in her praise for her own country she failed to mention that while Sweden have double the population of Ireland, they have 3x the number of Covid deaths. Presumably just slipped her mind.
@Barry: Did you read the article, that’s the complete opposite of what they’re saying – they clearly said that the elderly need to be protected.
Sweden 11 times the death rate of their neighbours.
Their economy just as badly impacted according to official GDP figures.
And now they’re seeing a rise in cases again.
Yet the likes of Niall Boylan keep pointing to them as somebody we should be looking at rather than Finland,Denmark or Norway who all have similar climates,age demographics and density levels. He also lies about those conditions while he’s doing it. Time for another fact check from the journal?
@Tom Thumb: We need to completely ignore this loon, he’s only a world renowned epidemiologist. Sure what would he know? Keep doing what we’re doing, we are on the verge of eradication. We just all need to hold firm, just another three weeks to save Christmas. We’re in this together. We can get this island to Zero Covid and it’ll never come back. Like St Patrick with the snakes.
@Monster Munch: Have a read of this.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/it-absolutely-destroys-you-covid-19-survivor-five-months-later-1.4351767?mode=amp
@Mick.: As I said Mick, hold Firm. We might get the waiting to a million. Eire Abú!
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/02/health/unseen-enemy-deadly-influenza-epidemic-gwen-zwanziger/index.html
@Monster Munch: Verge of eradication but Dublin is in lockdown due to case numbers and several other countries are on their way too.
2 experts discussing it, one from Ireland of you actually read the article.
And only one loon in this equation, you.
@Mick.: It can have long term effects, but so can many other illnesses. I had pneumonia a few years ago. 6 weeks in bed and it took a good 6 months before I was normal again. I try my best to avoid all situations where the virus might spread as I don’t want anything like that again, but I am annoyed that this is being portrayed as the only illness with long term consequences. On a positive note, ME is now being recognised. Friend of mine has been battling it for 20 years. Medical profession wouldn’t accept that it was the result of a seemingly benign viral infection
@Monster Munch: You are sounding like Trump when he says, “It’s almost gone”. “It will go away by itself”. “We are tuning the corner”. Yet here like in the US the numbers are rising.
We all know about the numbers who die, but what is not so well known is the numbers who catch the virus and didn’t die but are suffering from the long term effects from it. Doctors tell of patients with organ damage, chronic fatigue, joint pains, migraines, insomnia and a host of other illnesses that were not present before infection. All that are putting extra strain the health system.
@Mick.: Eh, I was being sarcastic…
@Anne Marie Devlin: What you are not taking into account is the virulence of this particular virus.
@Monster Munch: Yes,because doing what this guy says or to keep doing what we’re doing are the only options,aren’t they? “This builder is not doing a great job on the extension,I know let’s hire the guy whose last extension collapsed and killed the family while they were having dinner”. Or maybe we go out and get a builder whose proven his methods work? It’s a tough choice alright.
@Tom Thumb: And Ireland’s death rate is 7 times higher than Norway/Finland too, but for new cases, Sweden is lower than Ireland/Norway and matches Finland.
@Fintan Mac Giolla Pharic: You might have missed the part in the metaphor that conceded Ireland hasn’t handled the situation well,but to clarify… we’re the first builder. Sweden’s death rate per capita is higher than Irelands even though they had the advantages of a healthier population(approximately 30% of our population has a chronic illness),they have/or at least had at the start,a much better health service. But for yourself and Monster Munch because you both missed the point,I’m not defending Ireland’s handling of the pandemic,Im pointing out Sweden’s was terrible and we should be taking advice from countries that handled it well.
@Monster Munch: he is one man apparently going against what every other epidemiologist is saying.
@Joe_X: He’s not on his own. Not even close. But as I said we all just need to hold firm. Next three weeks really are critical. We’re at a crossroads which is highly concerning. Let’s all come together by staying apart and all that and we might save Easter/Summer/Schools/Christmas.
@Mick.: most likely from being ventilated and post viral fatigue.
@Tom Thumb: Sweden has a much older population than Ireland, which explains part of the difference. If you calculate excess deaths in Sweden as a percentage of the average number of deaths in a year, you will find that Sweden is not doing particularly badly compared to many other countries (not as well as the other Scandinavians, but they have done better than most in Europe and the Americas)
@Tom Thumb: which builder has proven his methods work in your analogy?
@Tom Thumb: what is differece in death rate per 100k in Sweden and Ireland
@Tom Thumb: Plus the number of Swedes who live alone is about 39%, which is very low compared to Ireland where it is about 10%. So very easy for them to limit their social contacts. Plus a relatively small population compared to it’s land size.
Finally, discussions based on harm reduction and long-term planning.
We can’t be locked down forever, and we can’t just let it rip and hope for the best.
Some sort of actual strategy that works in the real world, rather than just either appeasing fears or ignoring the real dangers, is sorely needed.
@Giovanni Giusti: True but the difficulty is that nobody knows what that strategy should be.
The scientists are learning more about the virus and it’s effects every day but are still a long way from being able to define a strategy that will control or eliminate it. Until they do all governments can do is adapt to what’s happening & try to plan for the next few months.
Proper order, let’s get back to some semblance of normality. For 99% it’s nothing more than a headcold, if even that many just have either very mild or no symptoms at all.
This Casedemic is being by pure fear by this failed Govt. Pitting neighbour against neighbour for not wearing Unhygienic masks and having a family member over above the advised amount.
The Curtain Twitchers won’t like this though, they will have nothing to perve on, they will just have to go back to watching reruns of emmer Dale on the TV.
@PeeedOff: Uh… in my personal experience, headcolds are NOT GOOD! Every time I get a head cold, I end up with a chest infection, sinus infection, and either ear infections or throat infection.. EVERY TIME! Along with asthma bad enough to require an inhaler..
I’ve somehow been lucky not to have anything this severe in 2.5 years. Had a sinus infection over the summer, but it was mild enough I was only in bed for a couple of days. I’m genuinely scared of the next time I get any combination of these infections.. I’ve never gone this long without anything. Usually it’s twice a year, and requiring antibiotics each time.
So.. “nothing more than a headcold”? Gimme ‘flu instead.. far less trouble!
@PeeedOff: Seriously??
@PeeedOff:
“Head colds” don’t cause hospitalization in 2.5% of those aged 18–49 years or 7.4% for those aged 50–64 years rising to 12.2% in 65-74 year olds and 17.2% if 85 or over.
CDC statistics
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm
Also after effects
100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 after MRI revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), which was independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis.
These findings indicate the need for ongoing investigation of the long-term cardiac effects
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916
@Mirabelle Stonegate: So should we have had a Casedemic years ago when everyone was getting Head colds ot the Common Cold which is Coronavirus. (Look it up), for all those years. As I said for the majority it’s a Head cold, for many it’s nothing, and for a tiny, tiny minority with an underlying condition it’s serious. Same with every other virus that hasn’t been turned into this witch hunt of a Casedemic.
@PeeedOff:
There is a reason the virus is called SARS-CoV-2 you understand.
MERS-CoV is also a coronavirus and has a CFR of ~35% (but you probably would call it a head cold) luckily for us currently there is no evidence for sustained human-to-human community transmission.
@PeeedOff: …when trolling goes wrong…
@PeeedOff: In Ireland, roughly 1 in 4 of those aged 85+ who caught covid19 have died from ot; for those aged 65+ at least 1 in 9 who caught it have died.
@Supes Kz: myocarditis is generally caused by viral infections. Covid would be no different. Even a tooth abscess or bacteria can cause you heart problems such as endocarditis
@Lesidees: I don’t know where you got this information from but it’s completely wrong. The following article gives you an idea of the IFR (chances of dying) by age group:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.23.20160895v4
The estimated IFR is close to zero for children and younger adults but rises exponentially with age, reaching 0.4% at age 55, 1.3% at age 65, 4.5% at age 75, and 15% at age 85.
So @65 years of age 1 in 75 die, @75 1 in 22 and @85 1 in 7.
@mar: have a look at table 5 on page 9 of this:
https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casesinireland/epidemiologyofcovid-19inireland/
In Ireland, more than 27% of 85 year olds and over identified as Covd cases have died
@Isabel Oliveira: Yes it is true to say that other viral infections etc can lead to myocarditis or pulmonary fibrosis however studies are showing concerning signs specifically with COVID-19 with regards to its frequency/prevalence and how may it differ from other viruses that infect the heart and in relation to other complications.
Some studies have shown significantly abnormal markers in 22% of the COVID survivors tested versus none of the risk factor-matched people. Also, nonischemic scar tissue by late enhancement was found in 20% of the COVID patients.
Did anyone read the article before commenting?
There is no evidence to support the current measures because “they”, “them”, “those” in charge have not scaled up the track and trace capability. Without the tracing, without asking people where they were and who they were with, without actually trying to prevent the spread we are basically wasting our time. Is pretty much how I interpreted the article.
Are we to continually lock down whole counties over and over again or can we actually target the people who are catching it, isolating them and ensuring that it cannot spread? It seems to be a more sensible approach.
Based on the electoral area breakdowns there are huge parts of Dublin that should not be locked down. Seems unfair that a whole county has to suffer when we could just target the people who catch the virus and isolate their contacts.
I’m not an expert, so let me pose a question to this Swedish one; how can herd immunity be developed with Covid when there are known various strains and already evidence emerging that people can catch a different strain having had Covid initially?
The Swedish policy resulted on a per capita worse death toll than Ireland. Is he suggesting we follow their model?
@LangerDan: There are two strains. D and G – European/N.American and the Asian variant. Unfortunately for us the Euro one is easier spread.
Having watched the damage a seemingly mild infection can do to lungs and heart long term, I’m going to give a hard pass to covid or any infection of any kind if I can help it.
Eh no thanks… if her Sweden is anything to go by …. grim stats in Sweden..
@windbag: Sweden with 20%+ of over 65s whereas Ireland has just under 13%. Sweden has double our population. Sweden has massive nursing homes when compared to Irish homes. Lack of PPE hammered both our countries, Sweden just had more of a vulnerable population to begin with.
Lately, Sweden is doing alot better than Ireland.
@Daniel Dunne: population density much less than Ireland, much less testing than Ireland, three times our fatality rate. A proper comparison, if you want to discuss age of population, would be to Norway, Denmark or Finland who all have about 20% of population over 65. How does Sweden’s figures stack up against these neighbours?
@Daniel Dunne: Sweden has 3.5 x the number of people over 75 and has so far 3.5 times the number of deaths. Currently they have roughly 1 covid19 related death per day and the infection rate is one of the lowest in Europe.
@mar: New restrictions being considered in Stockholm per UK press as cases rise sharply there…..
You should let the virus spread………as long as you have perfect testing and contact tracing services. Awesome.
@Jimbo Jones: the ironic thing is we have tested much more than Sweden per head of population. Sweden has tested 137K per 1m of population and we’ve tested 211K per 1m, more than 50% more testing per capita in Ireland.
@GrumpyAulFella: 137 x 2 does not = 50% more than 211. These are per million numbers. Go back to school.
A good rule of thumb to follow is this: trust the experts that have admitted they made mistakes.
That pretty much rules out all Irish “experts”.
Giesecke is a brilliant man who in March predicted the fatality rate would be 0.1%, which at the time looked outrageously low, but is now backed up many studies. Sidenote: do not confuse the Case Fatality Rate with Infection Fatality Rate, Im sick of having to explain the difference.
Meanwhile our own “experts” like Sam McConkey predicted 120,000 Irish people may die – getting the IFR rate off by a factor of about 50.
Since then, we’ve heard the Swedish experts admit they made mistakes around Nursing Homes. Has one Irish expert, with their outrageously inaccurate predictions, come out and admitted mistakes, with Ireland having the 2nd highest nursing home deaths in the world?
The reality is this is a nursing home illness, it is only dangerous to the very old and very frail.
For anyone young and healthy, a common cold will feel worse than covid 19 – hence why we’re seeing huge numbers of people with no symptoms whatsoever.
Scientifically, the way to see the fewest deaths in the long run is to cocoon the vulnerable for 3 months and allow it to spread amongst the rest of us quickly. After which, the virus is immobilised. BTW, Sweden think herd immunity is at 25%, not the 60% often quoted. This is likely due to so many of us already having some protection from covid due to having other viruses in the coronavirus family.
This is such a simple idea, backed up by hard science, that is so wilfully misunderstood.
Why can the Swedes readily understand this idea, but in Ireland, it’s met with hysteria and irrational rage?
@Mark K: yeah its shocking when you look at what our contact tracing is like, complete joke. Very interesting stats and really shows NPHET hadnt a clue. Utter shambles, as, per, usual. Its soul destroying that the powers that be are this useless and the ‘experts’ are experts at what? -all their finger pointing and blaming and they didn’t collect the data or where transmission was, or have i got that wrong? Maybe im misunderstanding but thats possibly because i cant believe what ive just read. Beggars belief
@Mark K: I will read the full transcript of the Committee Meeting when published.
You mention case fatality rate.Sweden has tested 151,541 per 1M population (Ireland has tested 218,141 per 1M population)
Sweden deaths per 1M population is 580(Ireland’s deaths per 1M is 362)
NB:its strange he didn’t mention that in July, the Swedish Government instructed the Swedish National Board of Medicine and Medical Evaluation (SBU) to carry out a systematic review of patients who have long -term symptoms of Covid-19 to be completed by December!
NB:It’s also strange he didn’t mention that in September the Swedish Government instructed the National Board of Health and Welfare’to develop a model for the rehabilitation of patients with long-term complications after Covid-19!
People from all age groups have been hospitalised in Ireland and needed ICU as well.
Of the over 65year age groups,40.81% hospitalised and 46.71% of them admitted to ICU so the majority admitted to Hospitals and ICUs were under 65′s.(up to 16/9/20 cumulative cases)Also patients from 15 years of age in all age groups have died.
Also as I’ve highlighted above some patients experiencing long-term complications after Covid-19 infection including young previously healthy people with no previous underlying conditions.
@Nuala Mc Namara: you need to compare age-specific death rates to get a meaningful comparison – simply looking at deaths per million doesn’t take account of differences in the age structure across countries. In plain language, Sweden’s population is older
@Lesidees: and as I have previously commented, the Swedish government had access to the same figures from Spain and Italy as our government had, which to me means they were more than willing to sacrifice the vunerable sections of their population
And before someone brings up that the reason they have 3.5 more deaths than us is because they have 3.5 more people over 65, well not all our dead are over 65, last time I checked, 92% of our dead were. If all theirs are, it means that their death toll of that section of the population alone is higher again compared to ours.
@Joe_X: I think it is more complicated than that. Like Ireland and many other countries, Sweden made a mess out of keeping the virus out of care homes.
The facts are that Sweden has seen fewer deaths among its older population as a proportion of its older population than a number of countries that did have more severe lockdown. It is difficult to make firm comparisons between Ireland and other countries because Ireland’s official death statistics are only available with a long delay, but as far as I can judge, for example from euromomo, Ireland seems to have performed relatively well. Some countries or regions have done better, some worse
People may rightfully disagree with our Swedish friend, but is preventing people from freely moving about, shutting down viable businesses, making hundreds of thousands of people redundant, asking people to stay in their homes the correct way either? The only way that I will reluctantly agree with the current Irish Government strategy is if our third world health system gets overrun, otherwise all the current strategy does is cause masssive hardship and suffering.
@The Firestarter: Any government that Fecks-up heath is a gonner, these guys know this acutely and are scared to their core of being to allow this happen, they’d rather sacrifice everything else.
@The Firestarter: We don’t have any restrictions among ordinary people, no facemasks. Prohibitions to visit hospitals and nursinghomes will end 1th of October. But So many elderly has died in these institutions- and in many cases next of kin has not been contacted. It’s really frightening not to no what to eatch out for!
Swedish “Strategy” has never existed, authorities had no control at all. 6000 death- compared to a couple of hundreds i neighboring countries. This summer the case numbers and elderly given no ICU care made us (Swedes) seem like paria. Then they stopped reporting, counting in negative numbers. Case reports international taken from the air. Low numbers right now (on the rise) make me feel that Sweden isn’t anything but a disaster, leaving everything on a level of “individual responsibility” – many don’t even no what responsibility is! Swedens numbers can’t compare to yours. Here we have loads of single households, easy to completely isolate if we want. Your housing situation makes it impossible to replicate the “Swedish no control at all strategy”.
@Anette Tourette: very informative insight.
@Anette Tourette: 100% agree! Also with all due respect what experience do they have managing these types of diseases in the population ? Let’s bring in experts from Eastern countries who are more experienced and managing to contain it whilst keeping economies going – many of us want health and lives protected thanks !!
@AnneMarieCunningham: Our economy, people out of work, Airlines ie are also down the drain. We need import, to be able to assamble everything we export. Flights are stranded here as well, as Most countries (Fairly!) has us on the red list. Our economic insurens don’t protect individuals, but billions put in to the big companies. And rebuilding Somalias (??!) society. Really sick!!
Amazing how people this stupid can be called ‘experts’. What about the long hauliers? What about the unknown long term effects? What about the fact that it eventually makes it way to the vulnerable?
@Munster1: Not to mention that over a million people in Ireland have chronic underlying conditions. How do we shield that many people?
@Munster1: Take the random academic and put him in the news and on the radio and they will seem as though their argument is on equal footing with the others who represent 99% of their colleagues.
@Munster1:
One of these experts in March predicted the Infection Fatality Rate would be 0.1%. The other predicted it would be 5% and 120,000 Irish people may die.
The IFR is now at 0.2%.
Im with Giesecke all the way. McConkey should not be given a platform after his utterly outrageous predictions in March which threw the country down the path to economic devastation it’s still on.
@Munster1: how would you define an expert?
If rational people were ever in doubt, Covid 19 has shown for everyone to see, that if someone adopts a position on anything, based on their personal bias or opinion with absolutely no knowledge of the subject and no conclusive evidence to support that position, they can eventually find an “Expert” to support that position, no matter how flawed it is.
Currently, if someone tests positive, they are not asked if they were at a restaurant, they are not asked if they went to a house party recently, said Schaffer.
WHA? Seriously? So how do they trace?
@There is no hope for humanity!: They don’t ask because it would be an “academic exercise” according to Nolan. So they shut down an entire business sector on a hunch instead. It’s an article of faith that the rise in cases cannot have anything to do with schools reopening, so it must be restaurants/bars. Given that medics have a jaundiced view of alcohol consumption, they’re more than happy to shut down bars and restaurants. What they aren’t happy to do is ask a few questions which might pinpoint the actual source, in case they might get the wrong answer.
@There is no hope for humanity!: Sweden don’t test at all. That way they don’t have to do any tracing…
@Col de Gal: I remember Nolan said that, but not asking questions how would they know where comes from? There should be a cross point.
I am in hospitality business, totally understand the first lockdown, it was late but it started. now … just so frustrated
What about the under 60s that would be left with long term complications because of this kind of tactic?
@Michael O’Neill: “What about the under 60s that would be left with long term complications”
From the article:
‘Speaking about after effects of Covid-19, Professor Sam McConkey, head of the Department of International Health and Tropical Medicine at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland (RCSI) said the data is no available as of yet, stating that while it is being discussed a lot in the media, “no one knows”.’
This is a highly contagious virus and an awful lot of people are going to get it one way or another. Talk of the long term effects of COVID-19 at this stage is just scare mongering.
@Will: So, because “no one knows” that’s OK then.
I’ve a colleague in his 40s that isn’t able to walk for more than half an hour two months after getting over the virus. I’ll let him know he’s scaremongering.
@Michael O’Neill: He’s in a tiny minority – most people below 60 are barely feeling this, myself included.
@Mark K: Can you link to the stats you’re using for that statement? I don’t know that many people who’ve had Covid and obviously using only people I know is anecdotal and not much use.
I found one study in Rome that showed that after 2 months only 16% of their study were completely free of symptoms after two months. (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768351) and the average age of the people in their study was 56.
So I was wondering where your “tiny minority” came from.
Dr. Giesecke and Prof. Schaeffer have academoc qualifications and expertise in their fields, just as Drs. Glynn, Holohan and Prof. Nolan et al do. Their opinions are just as deserving of discussion and shouldn’t be dismissed, as many commenters here have done.
They raise fair points – we are hedging our bets on an as yet to be proven and yet to be produced, effective vaccine. If or when one is produced we don’t know for certain what the efficacy of it will be and also need to factor in that distributing it globally will be a very lengthy process.
Is continuing with blanket restrictions based on inconclusive data really sustainable for such a length of time? Or do we reach a point where the economic impact and/or public frustration and lack of buy in renders them ineffective?
The article ends with a quote from Richard Boyd Barrett. Balanced views are good but credibility goes out the window with people before profit leading the charge.
@Gareth Murran: he’s not leading any such charge of any sort. He’s on the committee and he spoke. It was reported
Brings back the old saying ‘Doctors differ and patients die’. Never so apt.
A bit of sense at least. Surprised though this is reported here.
About time commonsense provailed!
What’s the point of frequently testing older people only as any type of solution. If they are tested and they have the virus what then?. It’s not like they have any remedy at that stage. Asking them to cocoon again because younger people will not adhere to the guidelines is grossly unfair and punishment if you like.
We’re supposed to be all in this together and look out for each other and care about our older people. As was once said by Ghandi “The measure of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members.”
@Tennyson: I don’t believe for one second that anyone is advocating rocking up to Granny and coughing + spluttering all over her. People can be advised to be extra vigilant when encountering elderly people and vulnerable people by taking extra precautions.
If we can treat our “weakest members” in this fashion we can emerge from this pandemic alot quicker and therefore have our weakest members fully enjoy life once more. If the question was posed to our weakest members about carrying on with restrictions on everyone for the next few years versus allowing the virus more freedom (not a full on “let it rip”) and get out the other side by say next Spring, then it would be a more informed decision to make.
So as a 35 year old with asthma (severe according to the asthma society of Ireland’s criteria) I should just get it and hope for the best??? I get chest infections even with the common cold!
@Shared Memory: same here and yes that seems to be the message. Somebody mentioned the old and frail need only worry about this. Nearly 500K of us are asthmatics and not old and frail but relying on Salbutamol and oral steroids to keep our airways open so that we can draw a breath. Apparently we should all catch this to make up the numbers for herd immunity. Sure why not? We can have an Asthmatics Catch Covid rave party over at the Oliver Bond flats next Sat and spread the goodness.
@GrumpyAulFella: asthma is not one of the major factors involved in covid19 deaths. I have asthma myself. Hope this helps with the media driven fear of catching it.
@MarkQ: I think there is a difference between catching it and dealing with it. I’m on oral steroids a lot and that suppresses my immune system and leaves me open to chest infections, bit like COPD sufferers. So as a severe asthmatic there is a higher risk of me contracting it with a suppressed immune system and it’s likely that I would struggle with it given underlying asthma and possibility of chest infection also. Like all underlying conditions though, it depends on the severity.
@MarkQ: one study- sold! There’s deaths and there’s quality of life.
It starts with “further research is needed”and talks about how “there’s limited data”. It doesn’t seem to mention the varying severity levels and I can’t see any figures/stats to back up what they’re saying??
It also says asthmatics are employing social distancing, being more efficient with medications etc.- all this can skew data and not provide statistically reliable sample.
Not saying anyone is wrong but like there’s many ways to skin a cat there’s many ways to interpret data
@GrumpyAulFella: are you at any higher risk than you are from getting the flu which in turn can develop into pneumonia?
@MarkQ: I get the flu vaccine every year, almost mandatory for severe asthmatics. So yes I’ve a much lower risk of getting the flu plus the flu fatality rate is a fraction of that of Covid so it wouldn’t concern me as much. We know so little about Covid, other than it’s virulence and fatality rate, that I’d rather that I didn’t contract it.
@Shared Memory: no, you should avoid risky situations as far as possible
Refreshing to see an article which debates different approaches to dealing with covid, because it is not going away any time soon.
Comments from people who “Listen to the experts” calling these 2 experts lunatics is expected as it doesnt suit their agenda.
More important- who is yer one in the mask in the middle of the photo
@a: Sharp eye there bud! :-D
@Daniel Dunne: It’s a talent
The only upside to this strategy would be the decimation of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and their consignment to the ringsend incinerator for good.
@Eileen O’Sullivan: “People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd Barrett said some people are afraid to have a debate of this sort, stating that some believe it undermines the government’s message. He said political control should not overshadow the views of some experts.”
For once I agree with RBB. It’s time to take the politics out of this.
@Daniel Dunne: I thinks he’s bowing to the anti maskers covid deniers. However my point is that with 33% of adults with high BP you’d have a lot of deaths and permanent disability for many under 60s . That’s what would destroy f g and f f.
Enough said.
Is it not already happening, very few people under 60 are taking the virus seriously. Just look at the numerous examples we have had.
Infuriating!! I’m mid 40s and previously very fit and heathy and am still having effects after having Covid 5 months ago !! ( and I wasn’t hospitalized). At this point it’s like learning to live with a poisonous snake – keep it at home and hope it doesn’t bite u and if it does that we survive – nuts!! 100% behind prof McConkey- we should get rid of it. We should look away to countries like New Zealand , Singapore , jordan and others in that area who know how to manage ‘tropical diseases’ and are containing it and have people back out living their lives and economies running . Even China ! What experience does Sweden have with these diseases ?? Honestly
@AnneMarieCunningham: McConkey wants total elimination. To do that we need to lockdown, close most of the economy, stay home, and shut our borders. We’ll need to implement and close a border with NI.
That approach means tanking our society and economy. Our economy is what pays for our health service, both now and after covid is a memory.
It’s probably safe to say that McConkey’s approach would doom at least as many as it would “save”. It’s also probably safe to say that his approach will not be attempted, so why all the hysterics when alternative approaches are discussed?
All the supposed unity with the vulnerable and clapping for healthcare workers really was just a facade from the Irish people, it only took a few months without pubs or sun holidays to see how selfish we really are.
1: The head line is misleading. 1 man does not equal “Experts”
2: Sweden had access to the same numbers that we had from Italy and Spain. Their government were more than willing to sacrifice their vunerable sections of society.
3: Not every one under 60 will survive it due to underlying conditions.
Buy that man a ticket anywhere out if this country and put a ban on him ever reentering!
@Joe_X: Most people being treatad for Covid_19 in Sweden now are 20-30 years. Partying, been arbroad ie. The elderly and multisick where the first to die. Rehabilitation can be a year. The virus can probably leed to permanent heart/ lung disease- and even brain damage. The elderly are NOT the only ones dying!
As one of the over 60s, I believe we have a responsibility to take precautions to avoid catching covid as far as possible, while allowing younger people to live their lives as normally as possible.
That doesn’t mean that older folks should live like hermits; it does mean us doing things like avoiding crowds as far as possible, not taking public transport at peak hours, social distancing, and good hygiene.
Pubs and restaurants should be open with reasonable restrictions, and respecting these conditions should be a condition of individual establishments remaining open. There are already health inspectors with the authority to close down a restaurant if hygiene requirements are not respected – why not extend these hygiene requirements to include covid-related constraints?
33%of adults in Ireland have night blood pressure an indicator of had outcomes ICU and death. Sweedes practiced eugenics up to the latec1970s.
I know it’s getting towards Halloween but I’m tired of witch drs being wheeled out to make headlines when nothing other than sicknes and death is happening in the world.
New restrictions being considered in Stockholm as cases rise
No thanks – you’re grand
Don’t know if anybody is an expert just yet.
It’s going to happen eventually no matter what restrictions are imposed
What a tosser
What about those of us under 60 with underlying medical conditions!!
More Bull
Can we please ensure that those in hospital and nursing homes are protected, as we do with winter vomiting bug etc. While protecting our infirm and elderly, can we please do so in a humane fashion, allowing contact with families. Many years ago the red cross ran a course in hand massage so that volunteers could massage the hands of those in this situation as it was recognised that the lack of human touch can increase the risks in illness.
Can those who are healthy be allowed to get back to living their lives, let children be children, and life be for living
Let those of us with underlying health issues take the steps needed to protect ourselves, and let people get back to the job of living
You bunch of yobos are never happy.
Its a joke
have your say