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AN ORGANISATION CAMPAIGNING for fathers’ rights has said it is disappointed at its exclusion from the Citizens’ Assembly in the debate about the Eighth Amendment.
Fathers4Justice, a campaigning group best known publicity stunts that usually involve a man dressed as a superhero scaling a high-profile building, made a submission to the assembly. Founder Matt O’Connor, was this week told assembly members will not be hearing from them.
Readers may remember O’Connor’s unexpected appearance on stage at the Rose of Tralee last year, dressed as a priest. Speaking to TheJournal.ie this week, he said his organisation is not taking a stance on whether the Eighth Amendment should be repealed, rather they are calling for fathers’ voices to be heard in the debate.
“We’re asking: Should mothers and fathers have an equal say about whether they want to become parents?” he said. “There is a legitimate question there to be asked.”
In its submission to the assembly, the group points out the “biological fact that it takes a man and a woman to create a child and that men will have a vote in this referendum”.
The group argues that the future of an embryo or a child should be a “collaborative decision” and that research shows this is already the case in most situations.
“Should the Eighth Amendment be amended to include or acknowledge the rights of fathers in this process?” O’Connor asked. Should the Irish Constitution be changed to acknowledge fathers?”
It’s about parental equality and should you have a say or not.
O’Connor was reluctant to suggest new wording that would include fathers as he said he recognised this was a “complex issue”.
“We’re not saying we have the answers to this, we just want the questions to be asked.”
“Men have feelings and views on this and they care and they love their children and their partners. They can be upset depending on the circumstances and what happens and I think we just need to think about it,” he added.
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‘Should men have a say ‘
If they’re in a relationship with the woman,then yes.
If they’re not,then no
The final decision is always between her & her doctor..
I wouldn’t take him and his group too seriously. He’s presenting himself as the spokesman to single fathers but we never asked for an attention seeking clown.
The eighth amendment is a clear violation of human rights. Repeal it, replace it with a humane one. Keep religious zealots away – they think spiritual leaders can’t father children but can abuse children. Involve doctors and psychologists – they know better than anyone what women have to endure.
Anyone who thinks a woman should be forced to carry a dead or dying baby to full term is to my mind a cold hearted freak.
@James Elford: sorry I meant to post this on the main thread. Please delete this and above thanks
@James Elford: What sort of screwed up world do we live in when people declare it a human right to destroy human life at its most vulnerable? Its “humane” to destroy innocent human life. What an incredible inversion of reality.
@Clon Lad:
“The final decision is always between her and her doctor”
Precisely. That’s exactly why this group is asking why the father shouldn’t have some input too.
I think you’re missing a most important point, it’s supposed to be a citizens assembly. Not a women’s assembly, not a medic’s assembly, or a social workers or anything that relies on a qualification or a hierarchy of interest. The only criteria should be citizenship.
Regardless of the subject or whoever’s hand is up, I don’t think the Assembly should have to right to exclude any submission from any citizen, otherwise it’s a political entity.
@James Elford: ARe theRE no embryonic rights? iS the embryo not human?
@thejynxeffect: That “human life at its most vulnerable” is destroyed naturally on a daily basis. A woman or girl is as likely to have a spontaneous abortion as a chemically induced one. How much have you done to support research into preventing miscarriages? How many less vulnerable lives (ie the born ones) have you adopted? Why obsess over the contents of a woman’s uterus, but ignore the thousands of children actually born and living who need care?
@DaisyChainsaw: can’t believe there’s a discussion about men’s rights to the unborn when women don’t have these rights! Many men just walk away if they don’t want to be a father. Admit it we all know at least one man that’s done that (I know several).
@Deborah Behan: and those men can be chased thru the courts for maint payments
The 8 amendment should not be changed, to accommodate the murder of the unborn child.
@Peadar Ó Gréacháin: if you have evidence of any murder Peadar you must take it to the Garda, very much the argument you use when there is a discussion on Sinn Fein and it’s dear leader.
@Peadar Ó Gréacháin: Ah red thumbs, how I miss you so much.
So Peadar can I ask you what your opinion of the X case was? A 13 year old girl got raped, went to England to get an abortion, and the Attorney General issued a warrant for her arrest. You don’t see any problems with that?
@Peadar Ó Gréacháin: How many sperm have you murdered this week?
I thought we elected a citizens assembly to Dáil Éireann. An assembly that would be held accountable. Why then have we got a random group of citizens who are totally unaccountable to us setting policy
@Euro is Dead: because the people we voted for palmed off their responsibilities on them.
I’m amazed at the regressive attitude of posters here. Of course men should be heard in the assembly.
I can’t think of any reason why they should not be.
Not to allow them is pure misogyny
@vNblxOSQ: completely agree but not to allow men is misandry not misogyny
@vNblxOSQ: Men are being heard. Sure didn’t a man speak at the last session for all those women who regret their abortions.
@vNblxOSQ: plenty of men have already presented and the assembly is made up of almost half men?
@DaisyChainsaw: plenty of women are against abortion too.it just so happened that is was a man who spoke on behalf of these women.quit being sexist
@gjpb: men made up all these rules that we live by to begin with! Men decided women should get custody of children because it was their job to raise them! I’ve no problem with men being represented but don’t go all victim on me!
@Deborah Behan: so you think a nan should have equal custody of his child?
You’ve a cheek to accuse me of going all victim!
@Deborah Behan: man
@gjpb: Why didn’t the women who regret their abortions speak on their own behalf? Why was some american man imported to it for them? I can’t think of anything more sexist than having a man explain why a tiny percentage of women regret their abortions when 96% have no regrets.
“Men made up all the rules that we live by”
The 8th Amendment was passed with universal adult suffrage
@DaisyChainsaw: Does it matter who their spokesperson was. Seems sexist that you don’t want a man speaking.
That guy should take off the priest outfit if he wants to be taken seriously
@Teddy: that may be the case, but it is an odd state where religious fathers (Priests) have greater say in reproductive issues than biological fathers.
Yeah, he should put on a pussy hat instead
I wouldn’t take him and his group too seriously. He’s presenting himself as the spokesman to single fathers but we never asked for an attention seeking clown.
The eighth amendment is a clear violation of human rights. Repeal it, replace it with a humane one. Keep religious zealots away – they think spiritual leaders can’t father children but can abuse children. Involve doctors and psychologists – they know better than anyone what women have to endure.
Anyone who thinks a woman should be forced to carry a dead or dying baby to full term is to my mind a cold hearted freak.
@James Elford: at least its a start.single fathers have no one representing them at all
@gypb – It’s interesting to see you can take O’Connor seriously despite him wearing a fancy costume and yet a bit of cleavage discredited Watson’s ability to input to a social discussion.
@James Elford: Well said! Thank you!
@N: difference is he isn’t standing half naked then complaining about being objectified
If his organization isn’t taking a stance on the issue at hand then he shouldn’t be whining about not having an audience to air his lack of an opinion.
According to the latest poll,there is three areas where abortion ‘could’ be made legal in Ireland : Rape/ Incest/FFA
Rape : Does he want to speak for the rapist ?
Incest : Does he want to be a voice for the victims father/brother ?
FFA : Who does he want to be a voice for here ?
@Francis Mc Carthy: people are also pushing for abortion on demand and that’s where he wants his voice heard
@gjpb: “We’re asking: Should mothers and fathers have an equal say about whether they want to become parents?” he said. “There is a legitimate question there to be asked.”
Any man that asks that question has his head stuck up his arse.
@Francis Mc Carthy: more like your head is up your ass
@Francis Mc Carthy: of course that question needs to be asked. The pro choice movement states it should be a woman’s choice only
@gjpb: time to mute you :)
@Francis Mc Carthy: Mute away but a troll like you will always respond
Men can have a say in pregnancy when they evolve to carry one.
@DaisyChainsaw: without them, there wouldn’t be a pregnancy in the first place so probably fair to say that they should have a say on whether it should be terminated or not.
@DaisyChainsaw: Exactly Daisy. Which is why women shouldn’t be paid equally for doing physical jobs until they too evolve accordingly.
DaisyChainsaw : They can have a whine.That’s all.
@Sean @114: Men need a woman to carry a child. Women just need sperm. If men didn’t exist, nature would find a way to continue procreation.
@DaisyChainsaw: but unfort for you men do exist and until women can have a baby on their own then men should have a say on abortion too
@DaisyChainsaw: Nature already found a way hun. It works for every species on the planet and most women love it that way. Id say there was a time even you did.
Just to let you all know the voice of fathers as parents was in fact represented at the Citizens’ Assembly, I spoke for Parents for Choice and many of our members are fathers. Unlike this person we also experience the 8th amendment and its impacts owing to live in Ireland and campaign and advocate around this on a regular basis, not only when it’s something the media are currently focusing on and we try to hog the spotlight.
Perhaps Matt O’Connor missed Parents for Choice as contributers as I was not wearing a superhero costume at the time. I will do my utmost to remedy this in any other future appearance before the Assembly we may be invited to make.
@Sinéad Redmond: ugh, typo: “owing to living in Ireland”
Since I’m a father who has children both with his partner and with a previous partner you did twice the job for me that F4J could have done, considering they only ever seem to concern themselves with the latter situation, so many thanks.
They will listen to the fundamentalist group youth defence but they wont give fathers a slot. SHAME
Sure they decided not to include the TMFR folks too- people with actual lived experience.
Men should only get a say if the woman permits it. Absolutely ridiculous article. The woman is the one that is pregnant. How would this be enforced? Women have to bring a permission slip from to the doctor from a man!
Let’s make women the property of men all over again. Idiotic groups like this do no one any favours.
@David McDermott: so in a married couple the man should have no say on whether they continue with the pregnancy? It should be a joint decision as both have to live with it
@David McDermott: even in a one night stand the guy should still be considered. If the woman wants to keep the baby fair enough but he should be able to walk away if he is not ready to be a father
@gjpb: if both can come to an agreement that won’t tear them apart then that would be ideal but a woman should never be forced into carrying a baby just because the father wants it .
@gjpb: if the father is willing to give up parental rights then I think that’s fair .
@Suzie Sunshine: disagree on the first point.if both are in a relationship then both partners should have equal rights
@gjpb: If a one night stand wants to force a woman to remain pregnant, then he better come up with enough money in advance to fund the child through to finishing college. Otherwise, he shouldn’t be having vaginal sex with fertile women.
@gjpb: nobody has any right to force a woman into something . .
@DaisyChainsaw: don’t think a one night stand should have a say but if he is not ready for fatherhood he should be allowed to walk.people in relationships should make joint decisions
Is that dude even a father?
@Kevin Higgins: yes, he started his political campaign after a very bitter and protracted campaign to get access to his own sons in the early 2000′s. He is an odd character though, born in Kerry, but previously stood for the English Democrats.
If he was born in Kerry he should be 100% Irish.
Fathers4Justice are abusive mysoginists who threatebed to sue a pro choice group in cork. They give misleading legal advice and purely exist to expand the ego of Mart O’Connor who is a member of an alt right English nationalist party. They should not be given any airtime.
In ancient history (Assyrian Law) it was ok to abort an unborn baby unless it was against the husbands wishes.This was about 1075 BCE. The earliest documented abortion was in 1550BCE on Egyptian papyrus. There were many ways in which women were instructed on how to lose the pregnancy.
It’s amazing how far has humanity has come from those bloodthirsty times.
Absolutely men should have a voice in this.
He has a valid point. I’ve seen a number of parents of who have had been forced to travel abroad for an abortion due to a fatal fetal abnormality being interviewed and I’ve had a friend who went through this. I stress, parents.
It doesn’t matter if they are married, co-habiting, whatever, there are two involved, ask any parents who lost a desperately wanted child and they’ll tell you how it feels.
I do think this gentleman’s antics are doing him no favours, they’re giving him and his group the appearance of the ridiculous, and he’s automatically being written off and sidelined because of them, not for his views.
He needs to rebrand and regroup, get someone who is adept at public speaking, possibly a solicitor or barrister and make the same representations, but this time professionally.
There were lots of groups not heard from and they are disappointed. But all submissions were read. Other groups are not having a hissy fit like this clown or wannbe priest. It’s pathetic.
@Aimée Setter: he only dressed up as a priest to hsom attention. That’s all ..
@Suzie Sunshine: * get some
@Suzie Sunshine: Do you think single fathers are treated equally ?
@Paul Mc Nulty: Do you think pregnant women are??
@DaisyChainsaw: neither are. Things need to change for both
@Paul Mc Nulty: no I don’t
@DaisyChainsaw: Answer my question please and then I’ll answer yours.
Is there any checks and balances to this Citzen Assemby ? Is the chairman word final … it come across like an expense focus group …
This article appearing just under the Emma Watson bashing article, The journo is really throwing it about today.
Clickbait for the anti women brigade.
@DaisyChainsaw: as opposed to the usual anti men brigade
@gjpb: even with court orders men don’t pay.
E.g. My ex reduced the payment by €25 and since Xmas has reduced it by another €7.22. If he has our child an extra day he charges me. He takes funds from the already reduced maintenance.
Men had their say once they e-jaculated without raincoat covering. If they didn’t wish to be bio father then don’t go out without a raincoat. Possession in this case is not nine tenths of the law but 100% within the woman’s uterus. This is a purely medical decision between a woman and her physician.
Those that spout off about being pro life need to look in the mirror and contemplate how the State and criminals that make up the catholic church actually treated real live born children and their mothers in real life, look no further than Tuam.
Being for forced birth is obscene and should be criminalized.
These people should be properly called pro birth.
At what point do these men want to be able to override women’s autonomy? when her life is threatened? when she has been raped? when her health is in danger? would they force a woman to continue a FFA pregnancy? at 12 weeks or 8 weeks? do they want a say in the morning after pill?
They appear to want a say but have nothing to actually say.
Their entire agenda is publicity.
have your say