They never apologised? MM has done so publicly on several occasions. Throwing out the same old stuff

Michéal Martin apologised for “not challenging the consensus”. He failed to mention that FF were the consensus and that the very Taoiseach of the country attacked people for critiquing the economy. FF have never stood up and accepted responsibility for the damage they wrought to the Irish economy AND for the damage they’ve done to political reputation in this country. If any member of FF were to apologise for the damage they’ve done, not only would they apologise, they’d be so ashamed they’d leave the party. So that’s why you’ll never get FF to apologise or admit their full responsibility as those who would have are gone.

Seanie, you quite possible have the most skewed knowledge of the political landscape I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

If you are not trolling, I would honestly consider getting tested for a delusional disorder.

@irnoreland
I refer you to his 2011 Árd Fheis address, where he unreservedly apologied to the Irish people for any poor decisions prior FF Governments had made. To suggest otherwise is totally a contradiction to that reality. Its easy to lay blame in hindsight when others such as the current Government and SF were calling on lower taxes, and higher social payments which would have further inflated the economy. When the Department of Finance, IMF, Central Bank, EU and the OECD predicted low growth for Ireland in 2008 & 2009 (in conrtast to a recessions), and a “soft landing”, where Professional Consultancy Firm where hired to investigate the banks models in 2009, and their reports stating that they passed the “most stringent risk assessments”. Reality is a tiny minority saw this coming. Easy option to blame FF.
Many experts have since highlighted that FF decisions once the crisis was realized where the best options (“least worst option available”), obviously in hind sights, some of them would have been different. Media spin and SF protest vote eat into your version.

Seanie the FF shill! ….. Welcome!

Seanie I’ll say one thing for you. When you’re not annoying the hell out of us you’re good for a laugh!

Might not be laughing if he gets elected in politics, He’s the sort of idiot that could end up running the country given half a chance

It’s total rubbish to say that nobody saw it coming. The sub-prime crisis hit the USA in 2007, over a full year before the 2008 crash. Economists like Morgan Kelly wrote in 2006 about it. I read material in 2006 comparing Ireland’s bubble to that of Japan in the 90s. It’s rubbish to say that nobody said it was coming. And then to blame the opposition who didn’t have the access to the same information FF had access to is ridiculous.
And the worst thing of all is that you’re completely undermining FF’s apparent apology! You’re defending their actions! Why would you defend something you think you should apologise for? I.e why would you defend a mistake? Unless of course you don’t think it actually was a mistake…

Same old gibberish boring rubbish from werejammy beginning to sound like an old broken record! Interesting the Labour man did’t turn to SF, I wonder why ? Could it be that they are on the slippery slope just like labour? Or maybe it’s a deep distrust of SF’s version of democracy? After this it wouldn’t surprise me if Mary Lou jumped ship!

And as for a general “we’re sorry”, to the FF party faithful; can you please tell me specifically what you’re actually apologising for? i.e what are the exact mistakes FF made in government that they are responsible for and that they wish to apologise for. Otherwise a general ‘we’re sorry’ doesn’t mean anything.

Enda, no self respecting citizen was watching the Ard feis, so his apology fell on deaf ears. Some things are unforgivable so mehole can shove his apology.

@John, So first kick up because he made no apology, realizes he made one and now doesn’t care?

@irnoreland There is a clear distinction between what they apologised for and what wasint their fault. Read what I said again. I am not saying they didn’t make mistakes, I actually said as much in my last post. Sub-prime crisis was totally different to our own, it was a year previous but that is the only thing you said correct, it wasint until the collapse of Lehmann Brothers the Europeans realized the scale of the US problem, but Ireland had extremely limited exposure to that Market so it was absolutely no indication. The experts in this field stated publicly (statements are available) that we should not be worried about developments in the US. To defend your argument that no one said it was coming, you list… 1 Economist who suggested it was, hardly convincing stuff? And I didn’t say no one, I said a tiny minority.

A tiny minority like The Economist? http://www.economist.com/node/4079027

A tiny minority like RTÉ? http://www.rte.ie/tv/futureshock/propertycrash.html

They had loads of people shouting it but FF advisors prefered to use smoke screens and say we were heading for a soft landing. How the hell did Bertie get out before the crash if he did not see it coming. He was no fool. you sir are a muppet for believing them.

Just because you choose not to listen to them or you create disincentives in the system so as to prevent minority opinions being heard, doesn’t mean that the opposition voices aren’t there. And nor does it mean that such voices are in some way less valid than the majority Again, Bertie telling naysayers to go off and commit suicide shows you the kind of diverse discourse and opinions the FF government were willing to listen to.

The RTE programme is the opinion of another economist when there were already signs? The Economist was referencing a global unsustainable problem. Wouldn’t disagree with either? People didn’t realize the scale or the banks involvement, lack of regulation etc. that was the problem! Neither link disproves what I posted.

@Simon, FF advisers? It was the Central Bank who used that terminology, it was replicated by the institutions I already referenced. FF didn’t come up with it, they were referencing the professionals, researchers etc. in that specialized field… eh not political advisers..

@irnoreland Your first sentence makes no sense, I never suggested that they were less valued. Your attempting to put words in my mouth. I said a minority had an opinion, which was opposed by a majority/main stream view, which the Government based their decisions on. Your mixing what I said inaccurately in an attempt to distort the facts in your favor. They did listen, that is why they commissioned investigations into Bank dealing, and after professional assessments in 2009, who said they were satisfied with their banking models. Would you have then ignored what professional experts said on instead rely on a few ppl trying to grab a headline? That may not have been the case, but it appeared that way at the time. Your can make all the assumptions you want now in hindsight, numerous academic reports on the crisis, have said if they were provided with the same information the then Fianna Fáil Government where, they would have made the same decisions. Mistakes where obviously made, but we are talking about an unprecedented financial crisis what we as a country where unprepared for, yes some of that blame DID fall at the feat of the Government, but a lot of other blame landed at the regulators, bankers overconfidence in their models and an over reliance on certain sectors.

People didn’t realize the scale or the banks involvement, NO but FF did it Anglo was their piggy bank, you heard the tapes from Anglo, you think FF did not know what was going on or how deep they were into it.

ha Simon, have a listen again. They admit to lying to the Government. Who was the Government at the time? Fianna Fáil. Anglo tapes actually prove the opposite to what you are insinuating. The focus on your post, should be on how to prosecute white crime in this country. Not persecute wrongfully.

Enda, while there was a financial crisis, it was the policies followed by FF for the previous decade, coupled with the FF decision to blanket guarantee the banks, that led us to the edge of a financial abyss.

Now, as a senior member of fianna fail you are entitled to your own biased opinions. You are not, however, entitled to your own facts.

“but we are talking about an unprecedented financial crisis what we as a country where unprepared for”

Unprecedented???? Sure crashes happen all the time man. FF over spent for the best part of a decade so they could keep on getting elected which exposed the country your “unprecedented” crash.

They also openly encouraged the population to borrow to buy property which made us feel rich for a time but eventually exposed us to a banking crisis as well. There is no point in blaming what ever random event America when it was our own house that wasn’t in order because of FF.

This is who you’re dealing with. Very angry, bitter people. Presenting facts won’t change their minds.

Enda, I’m not mixing what you said as your argument – that the majority opinion believes x – is assuming that the majority’s opinion is more valid/ correct than the minority. This is a logical fallacy. The popularity of an idea has no bearing on it’s validity: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon
So FF saying “everybody was saying X and only a minority was saying Y” is an incredibly flawed way of going about running an economy or a country.

And this is the problem with FF. Members of FF say that they have no ideology or that their ideology is pragmatism. Aside from this being a load of rubbish as you do have to have a vision of what you think is the end result in order to solve a problem, FF’s approach essentially boils down to them doing what they think is popular, i.e engage in populist politics which led us to the 2008 crisis.

Also, FutureShock was broadcast on RTÉ16 April 2007- Almost a year and a half BEFORE September 2008.

@werejammin, sure all personnel opinion is biased. My post is obviously stating facts, and I am basing my opinion on them. That is the key difference. I have highlights what are the facts, and then expressed an opinion (which you interpret as biased, as I would yours), the facts there not “my own”. The blanket guarantee was the wrong decision, which we can now identify in hindsight, a partial would have been the preferred option. However, it was considered the best at that time. Your right in that policies in the ’00 didn’t help the crisis (except I know your a shinner, and your advocating theirs would have prevented it?! now who is “disillusioned” or “biased”?)

@Luke, your right, past 30 years has seen in excess of 100 alone, however this was unprecedented on a number of levels. This is the largest ever banking crisis in moderns times to hit ANY country per GDP. FYI, I didn’t reference the US problem, I was responding to some else’s post who was, as you say, incorrectly relating the two problems. You are hardly denying we weren’t prepared for it?

@irnoreland, sure of course the majority was wrong. You are misrepresenting my point. I said the general consensus was what the majority believed. Obviously we can now say they were wrong!! You are totally changing the point of argument.

I don’t know where you heard they don’t have an ideology? I think you should consider your posts more carefully. They did what they thought people wanted, your right? Sure that is what they are elected to do! As I have already said, every research institutions and authoritative bodies where giving official predictions of a “soft landing”, not FF political advisers. Instead you would do what the Irish people don’t want, and go against them?! So your accusing Fianna Fáil of doing what the Irish People want, and saying thats wrong! Welcome to democracy.

I don’t see how I’m changing your point. The entire crux of your argument/ defence of FF is that “nobody said stop” i.e. that the majority did not warn FF. Your arguments against the sources I cite is that they were only ‘the minority’. You’re clearly arguing that the majority of opinion is the more appropriate to follow than the minority and that is a logical fallacy.
And no, politicians are not necessarily meant to do what the people want; they’re meant to do what is right/ best for the country. That’s the point of leading. If democracy was only about doing what’s popular then any constitutional safeguards against majority rule (e.g. human rights) would be illegitimate as they’re not democratic. Judicial review of legislation would be illegitimate If democracy were only about popularity or doing what’s popular then that would also completely undermine FF’s position in the previous referendum on Seanad abolition as the Seanad is not a body with a mandate from the people.

Enda get your facts right, i didnt say he never apologised, i said nobody was listening and he can shove his apology, I hope to god FF never again get near government, that would be a huge relief to a lot of people in this country, 14yrs in government and the only thing you can boast about legitimately is a ruined economy and our children sold into economic servitude for decades to come while those at the wheel swann of into the sunset with lavish pensions, FF should be banned outright.

Enda, also please note that Cowan recently admitted during a TV interview that he had “No Plan B” and judging the end result his Plan A was pretty non existent also.

I find it hard to believe you believe your own FF waffle Seanie. Where is the brainwashing facility FF took you too? Or whatever medication the doctor has you on ye need to go back to him tell’em it’s not working you need stronger stuff….

Giuseppe, dont pay any heed to Seanie other than to enjoy his comedy, the cheese slid off his cracker years ago, just look at the number of red thumbs get gets for EVERY comment he spouts, hes known on the Journal as their village idiot.

Seanie – you are a laugh a minute – Colm joined FF to try & keep himself on the gravy train. If he was serious about change then why join the one party that has upheld the status quo since the foundation of the 26 County State.
It’s more about re election than anything else!
Seanie come join the real Republican Party!

Enda – a couple of words for you…..
Galway tent – brown envelopes- bankers buddy – Pat Farrell- Bertie’s buddy…economic terrorism by FF.

I thought it was smoke and daggers they used…

There you are Seanie, was wondering if you’d be spouting your FF propaganda and as sure as day follows night, there you are. Now you’ve had your say you can go back and hide under your rock again, good boy

Sounds like Seanie is an ogra Fianna Failer…… Poor fella. Seanie wake up and smell the coffee man. What do you expect FF to do but make these new promises and policies….. They are the opposition. I don’t blame Fine Gael and labour like I do FF. They Ran us into the ground and now bitch, moan and complain about the current government who are there trying to clean up FFs mess. I pray to every god I can think of that te electorate is smart enough to not listen to there tripe. I’m a cork man and I’m ashamed that Micheal Martin is able to stand up and deliver these lines. Sickening

Simon nooooo! Not even in jest!

Ignoreland, you’re right. That’s exactly what Fianna Fáil did. They went with what the majority wanted, the majority of their friends and cronies that is, and persuaded a lot of people that that was they wanted as well. Not once during the crisis was there a word about what was good for the country. Every time they opened their mouths the same old mantra popped out, “for the good of the party”. Not once did I hear them mention what they should do for the country. It was all about saving their own skins, even to the point of delaying two bye-elections, one for a year and a half. They could never apologise enough for the ruin they and the banks brought about.

Red thumb Seanie is back

Anybody who didn’t think there was a problem back then is an idiot, those in a financial or political profession were financial profession idiots.

Stop now Enda you just sound foolish, seriously.

Bollocks

Jesus lad what planet have you been on?

Of the current 19 TD’s representing Fianna Fáil (excluding Colm Keaveney) 3 were newly elected in the 2011 general election, namely Robert Troy, Charlie McConalogue and Barry Cowen. One other, Seamus Kirk had served as Ceann Comhairle from Oct 2009 to March 2011 and therefore did not put himself before the electorate as he was automatically deemed to be re elected. He has however served in all Fianna Fáil governments since 1997 having represented them as a TD since 1982.

So, including Mr Kirk we have 16 TD’s in Fianna Fáil all of whom served and supported various Fianna Fáil governments under both Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen.

NOT ONE of those TD’s stood up at any stage to speak up about the way this country was being run…in fact they actively participated in it.

For you to turn around now and say that these are people of vision is totally wrong. Going to specs avers is about the only vision these guys will ever get!

Meant for Seanyryan

Going from an independent to a party member, he looses out on the leaders allowance given to all independents.
So he has lost money.

I think you had to be elected as an independent to qualify for that Danny.

It is true Enda that his salary won’t change for now but it will when he loses his seat.

By the way you are getting a real kicking on the comments page today. Life is hard as a FF supporter hey

Yes but he wants to be re elected in 2016 and has no chance as an. Independant.

Brendan..I just told him the exact same thing on Twitter! Just no end to it in this country

Galway East will be very interesting next time out.

Two wet fishes shaking hands by the look of things in the photo, they dont look like peas from the same pod.

@John Kelly.
John if you are making your decision based on Sinn Fein’s history over the last 4decades in the North of our country. Then your views can only be based on the propaganda machine made up of the Media which are controlled and influenced by the three parties that you are, “sick to the back teeth of FF,FG,Lb.” Consequently if you are making decisions based on history then I think you maybe in the wrong country. The “history” of Sinn Fein has seen them evolve as the second largest party in the North, with a massive growing support on both sides of the border. Hence, the concerns and the witch hunt by the three parties of FF,FG and Labour who you are, “sick to the back teeth of.” However I agree with your decision to vote independents and I commend you for that, as you are not like others who refuse to vote. Best regards and keep voting!

SF would be more attractive to middle Ireland if they detached themselves from the Gerry Adams brigade and set up a stand alone party serving the 26.

Brian your comment defies logic and common sense. Basically you are stating that if Sinn Fein cease to be Sinn Fein and formed a new party under a different name, you would vote from them? That is no different to saying if Gerry Adams changed his name you might vote for him. The flip side of that view is, the vast number of people that do vote for Gerry Adams and allowed him to top the poll, may not be to happy with your view!

They have some very good politicians that make sense. But their leader lacks credibility.

Brian, he “lacks credibility”? That statement seem to be regularly cast out into the public arena for those who are willing to take the bate. It has been cast out by those involved in political-corruption and acts of economic-treason forced on the Irish people! Credibility?
Gerry Adams stood with his people in the North and never turned his back on them,neither for political or financial gain.
After an assassination attempt by British murder squads and shot three times, Gerry Adams still remained defiant and stood with his people. Gerry Adams marched his people through an ugly war, a war perpetrated by the dark unseen forces within the British war machine. He marched, against overwhelming odds and threats to his own life, his people into a Peace Process.
An honest and trustworthy participant in that Peace Process was Fr. Alec Reid who described Gerry Adams as a “Statesman and one of the best if not the best Politicians in Europe.”
You say he, “lacks credibility”?

And that’s the place for him. They elected him. He deserted them.

Michael Allen. For a Fianna Fáil supporter you are certainly arguing with the zeal of the converted for Sinn Fein. It is hard to imagine that you ever held any other view, but its great to see people who are committed to the democratic process in any guise. As for Colm Keaveney, he must be desperate or confused! Where is the evidence that FF has learnt from the past. All they have done is huffed and puffed from the opposition benches since they were booted from office.

They could call it “Sinn Féin 26″. Can you inagine the apoplexy in Sinn Féin up north if they did that!

That was for Brian Farrell’s comments.

@Michael Allen
I would trust anything that came out of the mouths of your average FF,FG or Labour politician when it comes to opinions on SF (or their opinions on any other party for that matter). They are just doing it for political points and I think they have intensified their attacks on SF because SF are gaining in the polls.

My dislike of SF stems back to the 70′s, 80′s and 90′s when I was growing up and listening to the sh1t that was going on, with incidents like the Enniskillen, Warrington and Omagh bombings to name but three, as well as incidents like the shooting of Jerry McCabe. These incidents are not inventions of the “propoganda machine” and were reported by the likes of UTV and BBC which we have access to here in the 26 counties. UTV and BBC are not mouthpieces for the Irish political parties. Sinn Fein did not carry out these incidents but are extremely close to the people that did.

While these incidents are hopefully in the past they are, to me at least, utterly unforgiveable and as a result Sinn Fein are a complete no-go. The same with Fianna Fail.

I’ll be voting Independent next time because FG and Lab have been a huge disappointment., but I may vote for either of these parties again in the future if they cop on. Fat chance of that happening, I know.

@ shinnerbotargo

Responsible? The party who ran the countrys economy off a cliff but apparently weren’t to blame for anything?

Well duhhh. They didn’t put the cliff there.. Can’t blame them for that. ;-)