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The Government chief whip Regina Doherty has said that Fine Gael’s attempts to implement water charges in the past was “a cock up”, as the political row over the controversial charges continued.
Speaking on RTÉ’s Saturday with Claire Byrne, Doherty said that the party had made a “catastrophe” of trying to introduce water charges in the country.
This comes as a political row over the final report of the water charges committee between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil threatens to undermine the confidence and supply arrangement between the two parties.
“I’m not blaming Fianna Fáil for the catastrophe that we made of this for the last number of years,” said Doherty.
“I completely and utterly accept that what we put forward – how we put forward the particular policy that we wanted to put to the Irish people was a cock-up.
No bones, no standing behind doors, it was a cock-up.
In a heated panel discussion, Doherty clashed with Fianna Fáil’s justice and equality spokesperson Jim O’Callaghan over the report, which is due to be voted on by committee members next week.
Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael TDs have been at loggerheads all week over the report, with public back and forth barbs being traded between high-profile members of each party (including Environment Minister Simon Coveney).
Fine Gael states that the report as is – which calls for the scrapping of water charges, the end of the metering programme and refunds for all who have paid already - would violate EU laws around conservation.
The party has said that it will not sign off on recommendations on water it states violate EU law.
Fianna Fáil, for its part, have claimed that the Fine Gael leadership contest – touted to be between Ministers Leo Varadkar and Simon Coveney – was getting in the way of the governing of the country.
TDs claim that Simon Coveney had expressed support for the deal reached by the water committee last week, but had radically changed tack since then and come out against it.
Fine Gael – for its part – contends that Fianna Fáil had given in to the “populist” position put forward by the Sinn Féin and Solidarity-PBP TDs on the committee.
‘Downright stupid’
Fine Gael TD Alan Farrell came in for strong criticism from all members of the panel today for what was labelled as a “personal attack” on Fianna Fáil Environment spokesperson Barry Cowen.
In a post on his Facebook page earlier this week, Farrell levelled strong criticism towards Barry Cowen and other members of his family who had served in politics.
The Dublin Fingal TD criticised policy decision enacted by Barry Cowen’s father, Ber Cowen, when he served as a TD in the late-70s. He also criticised Cowen’s brother Brian Cowen, who served as Minister for Finance and Taoiseach during the late-2000s.
“It’s not something that I could ever subscribe to,” Regina Doherty told Claire Byrne this afternoon in relation to the post.
When you actually have to revert to being personal between two politicians of two political parties I think you’ve lost the argument and I think that’s pity.
Jim O’Callaghan also criticised the post by Farrell.
“I don’t like the idea of politicians referring to the families of other politicians,” he said.
“Alan Farrell is perfectly entitled to criticise Fianna Fáil for its stance on water policy.
But what he shouldn’t be doing is making personal attacks at people’s family.
Former Environment Minister and Labour Party TD Alan Kelly also criticised Farrell’s post, saying it was “downright stupid”.
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It’s nice to know you regard the squandering of millions of tax payers money as a cockup, I would regard it a gross Miss conduct at best and a criminal offence at worst, you should all
Be jailed.
@robert lester: I would consider it a fundamental and criminal waste of scarce public resources and gross mismanagement on an enormous scale. P45 territory.
Regina would know all about cock ups.
@robert lester:
What FG really should have done is simply deduct the cost of water directly from their welfare payments. Then no money would need to be collected from anyone.
@robert lester: well said…Jail all the Blueshirts and throw away the keys
@Fred Jensen: what has social welfare got to do with wasting huge sums of money exactly?
FG & Labour spent & wasted a fortune of this society’s public money on water meters just so they could attempt to charge the least well off households REGRESSIVE water charges. Shame on Labour for daring to even think about introducing water bills after their 2011 Tesco add that had promised not to bring water charges in, not to cut child benefit, raise car tax or VAT,no increase in college fees etc. Labour broke ALL these promises & ALOT more in their 1st 2 years in office. Howlin & Joan Burton & Jan O’Sullivan & Alan “sex face when he got reelected on umpteend count”Kelly have some nerve now criticising FG bout policies they let happen up to 2011-MAY 2016
@robert lester: To describe water charges as a cock up was early when everyone had pointed out the the citizens were already paying for their water through taxes via extra VAT and levy on motor tax and in for those on group schemes. Not when you eventually that it has blown up in your face. Defending The Bully Hogan and then Alan Kelly will not be forgotten by most of us. Get to hell away where ye belong.
@robert lester: Phil Hogan, should resign and now.
@Stephen murphy: Sure why would he, he got his 30 pieces of silver in the form of a cushy number in Europe.
Horse manure.There is no right way to do the wrong thing, and charging people twice for water under threat of turning it down to a trickle is most definitely the wrong thing.
@The Risen: but charging twice for everything else is ok…
@The Risen: Were we lied to in 2011 about USC being a temporary measure? Hello FG can you please let us know? Sick and tired of paying 7% USC on top of 40% PAYE and another 4% PRSI. Have prople some kind of Stockholm syndrome where “get used” to the punishment?
@gregory: FG the party that rolled and converted Anglo prom notes to national debt. This deal with cost the earth by the time our grandkids pay it off. That FG?
@gregory: USC is going nowhere. They may reduce it as they want to do with pâté and make you pay for everything USA style. The biggest difference between FF and FG is FF see a society and an economy
@lavbeer: USC is the fairest tax of them all, the more you earn, the more you pay. PAYE and thresholds need to be fixed; everyone should pay tax on income, atm there are 400,000 workers not contributing
@Alan Brogan: In addition to income tax and the transition to the higher rate at a level much lower than our neighbours and competitors then USC is nothing but a grab from the pockets of citizens that’s too convenient and as a temporary measure it’s gone on too long.
That’s the choice FG have made. They’ve thrown away hundreds of millions and just proceed with USC to make up for their incompetence
@Alan Brogan: As I said before you’re not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.
@Alan Brogan: USC was supposed to be a temporary take. Do you not think people would like their savings back??
@lavbeer: good posts lavbeer! agree.
@Gerry Ryan: great comment. Says it all.
@Alan Brogan: Our tax including the Fine Gael USC is to high. So it dis-incentevizes work. We are faced with Brexit and their income tax is Much lower. Our Government admits this by offering a reduced tax rate to foreigners in Senior positions who are prepared to come to Ireland. It is not right and Fine Gael know it but do nothing about it.
If it was only a cock up, that would be one thing. It was far, far more than a cock up. It was pandering to vested interests.
Remember, at the start people were asked for PPS numbers, details of home arrangements, sensitive bank account information and a lot of follow up questions were asked, the purpose of which was to construct the most extensive, comprehensive and valuable commercial database in Ireland. Then ask who was the intended ultimate beneficiary? Hint. Malta.
This was malfeasance on a shocking scale.
I nearly was suckered but when the PPS no. would not be waived, I then spotted the scam.
This is not a government for the ordinary citizens of Ireland.
@Tony Daly: at thjs stage it must be 1 of the most expensive cock ups any lrish government pay presented to the tax payer. Compared to lW the electronic voting machines are in the amature league….
@Tony Daly: The PPS requirement wasn’t there at the start. Joan Burton snuck that in as an addendum to another bill. As usual and like everything else with IW – no transparency
It’s typical of FG to pander to big business and corporate interests at the behest of the nation. Their fascist inclinations always causes them to push too far, as they did in the past with the ‘tax on children shoes’. Claiming the proposals in the committee report, which are utter commonsense, break EU rules and therefore cannot be implemented is another example of this pandering; the French, Germans, and other European nations of substance regularly flaunt non-sensual EU rules relating to economic targets/limits etc. Ironically, FG are doing a great job of fuelling growing anti-EU sentiment in this country.
@lavbeer: the PPS was a result of political meddling alright, if they had left well enough alone, a direct cost per litre it wasn’t required. It was only when people started on about pensioners, children, carers, family allowance, all of which is valid but could be handled by social welfare. Best way to bill would still be simple cost per litre.
@Malvolio32: or simply a flat charge. According to IW 71000 households are responsible for 32% of wastage. The cost of the billing system far outweighs the benefits. And the EU would eventually force privatisation or we would sell it to reduce our banking debt. The only way we can control this is via general taxation
@lavbeer: How do you stop water from being underfunded as a result of funding being prioritised on election issues?
@Kerry Blake: And the cock ups will continue until we stop these leeches from lucrative careers in The Dail, get rid of them all.
@Malvolio32: by having a national approach (even IW) and setting a minimum percentage of tax receipt to it. That it is ring fenced. Of course depending on tax receipts that number can change. Borrowing is by the government as it is cheaper
@lavbeer: so people will just decide to reduce the minimum as it suits, leaving all the infrastructure problems for the next govt to sort out? The marches maybe prove one thing, there’s no votes in it.
@lavbeer: can we at least enact measures to prevent the sale of IW?
@Malvolio32: why would people set this target? The givwrnm
@Malvolio32: try again. New appl is pain at times. Why do you say the people set this? The government can. They may need to alter the constitution.
But removing the coco management from the loop essentially solves the problem. Sorry maybe i misunderstood your question?
@Tony Daly: Yes Denis the menace was being lined up for to buy the citizens precious resource CO2 water. (The new oil) His then company site serve got the meter installation contract, how? Kenny and Co were close friends with Denis and appeared many times at his side. Remember the phone licence controversy he got that by a political stroke, and a politician on the make, and the same could have happened with the sale of Irish citizens water. Luckily the people copped on to the scam, most refused to register and took to the streets in protest the rest is history, as will Irish Water as presently set up.
@lavbeer: sorry lavbeer badly phrased? When I said people I actually meant the elected govt of the day, because there’s no votes in water, and it’s just human nature to kick the can down the road, they will cut future water spending, which might have consequences decades time.
@Malvolio32: Ah okay then IW will get a percentage and they will be charged with spending it wisely. Something they failed miserably on thus far
If FF were to call an end to this farce of a government now , both they and FG would take a hiding. A solution will be found and that election we want will not happen just yet…
Why would FF take a hiding? Their opinion poll standing is at a record high post-recession and they’ve as promised stood against water charges and have no longer backed the garda commissioner. The Irish public will again flip flop between FG and FF as they always do, only question will be if they can make up a majority with labour and/or independents.
@Rochelle: have to agree with you Rochelle, FF would make significant gains and would be the largest party, FG would lose some seats, but by no means a hiding. The Irish electorate have a shamefully shirt memory and there is not a single party I would feel comfortable voting for.
@Willy Malone: Fianna Failure, like the Labour turncoats before them won’t do a thing until they know they’ve secured their pensions and for some of them that will mean another couple of years propping up the current regime.
Don’t hurt the money, lads!
@Paul Fahey: your last sentence is a sad reflection of politics in Ireland
@lavbeer: it is indeed, but a fair representation I feel.
@Paul Fahey: agreed
@Paul Fahey: I wouldn’t be so pessimistic. The combined vote of both parties are in steady decline election after election. Polls mean nothing, how many times have pollsters got it wrong on all sorts of elections in Ireland and abroad. But they can sway undecided minds to some extent. Given FF’s performance, it’s clear to most people they are in a de facto coalition with FG and when the SHTF will side with them at all costs.
This hasn’t gone unnoticed.
@Dave Doyle: you may be right, but ultimately the result makes little difference to me or most of the electorate, we will be screwed every which way. We pay a high level of personal tax for a very poor level of service and I do not see any of the parties altering that, so the choice is syphilis or gonorrhoea to me.
Fg politicians showing their true colours, they really think they are above everyone in the country,but they are the lower than a snakes belly.getting personal shows desperation.
If that’s what she says and thinks the question has to be asked can she still give 100% support to her dear leader Enda.
@mickmc: because she too voted for IW on the back of 3 hours discussion. Safer to stay in the pack than admit her stupidity I suspect. Typical of no accountability Ireland
It wasn’t so much the original failure, it’s the ongoing and constant failures, and the failure to listen to the people, and the constant public service failures, the bus strike failures, etc. etc. etc.
The reason is neither complex nor mysterious. When political parties and politicians allow themselves to be compromised by corrupt dishonest hyper wealthy “businessmen” (sure couldn’t we all be successful if we could bribe our way to success) like Denis O’Bribester , they cannot act optimally or even at all in the best interests of the country. Control of Ireland’s water was the expected price of his FG bailout. Their every move was constrained by this primary motive.
Where’s me popcorn??
When people are assiduous and emphatic about being fools, almost proud of the fact, you can tell that they are knaves.
FG is presenting the fools or knaves option. I favour the knaves option.
We will never seen an inquiry or investigation of big bad Ohil Hogan’s stunt.
Dinny O’B to Lowry to Big Phil Hogan to Enda Kenny to public malfeasance.
Regina, we dont believe a word you say, stop trying to pretend you are relevant.
@Gus Sheridan: tune in to LMFM morning show with Michael Reade to hear her. She is a first rate idiot
Farrell tweeted his pride in his own grandfather being one of the first members of a Garda corps a short while after he himself tried to take a political gain using information leaked from the same organisation. He should desist from personalised comments. But playing the man and not the ball is a common tactic when you have dug yourself into a hole
As for Regina and her cock-up comment well many of us realised this a long tine ago. Her comment however won’t recover the monies wasted on the cock up
A property tax should have never been introduced!
Paying for wasting water makes sense!
A property tax is sheer greed by the state!
I don’t ask the state to house me!
But yet I’m charged for it!
@Ciaran: but at least the property tax is collected without an army of people and a billing system. I don’t like paying it of course and it should be ring fenced for local services in the collection area. Due to population differences there is a requirement for urban to fund rural. And it needs a big reduction in the number of county councils.
@lavbeer: A lot of common sense there! Good points.
@David Mc Nally: seems reasonable!
@gregory: thanks Gregory. David is bang on. One of the initial sells was conservation. They knew they were losing 40+ percent on trunk routes. They ignored this to get their revenue stream in place. I do wonder what guarantees this private company gave when it was borrowing. Answer the water infrastructure that they inherited. There is a real mess here yet to be revealed
Sure can you give one example of something your lot didn’t make a cock up of?…..sorry ive just taught of one. You made a good job of giving yourself a fairly large pay rise.
Please don’t fall fir the cock up story, however initially plausible it may seem.
What sort of Gombeens have Elected??
@Maire: the type who waste multiples of millions of our money on a postcode system that’s next best to useless and then retire on a big fat pension and instead of doing the decent thing and keeping quiet, turn up like a bad penny on politics shows telling us all how it should be done.
It’s enough to make me ill anyway.
There is a vicious rumour that RTE just announced that approx 53 anti Irish Water protestors turned up and were confronted by 80,000 counter protesters supporting Irish Water demanding to pay more as soon as possible clutching wads of cash! Roll on #GE2017
Phil Hogan. What an amatuerish attempt to ram through a half baked plan that was full of mistakes. You cost us dearly telephone numbers and you get rewarded with a big job and more $ in Brussels. Arguably the most incompetent and arrogant Minister ever! Great job Enda…you were his boss!
@gregory: but when your boss is in debt to you thanks to saving him during their last civil war .. you tend to have some leverage!
@gregory: Brussels pay in € not $.
@Alan Brogan: Is that you Greengrass ‘Trickle’ Hogan ?
We would be awfully gullible and myopic to buy into the cock up narrative. I see political massaging.
FG/F/Lab/SF/Social Democrats are all pro Euorfile kapo parties will do whatever Europe wants and desire. Remember FF in power rejected the Irish voters choice in the Nice and Lisbon treaties to vote again with the support of FG and other in the business lobby groups like ISME/SFA/IBEC/IFA and others.We seen again FG like FF refuse to accept the water commission report because it doesnt suit the Euorile quisling privatisation agenda. FG like FF loves inflicting pain misery and austerity on the wider populace that would make Marquis de Sade blush.
Alan Farrell isn’t a Dublin Bay North TD, just so you know.
@Andy Rooney: I read the article and missed that. Good spot. He is Fingal of course. Malahide- Portmarnock area.
They made a complete ballcock of it and she was party to it. What a plonker.
Very true property tax is much more unfair …..Takes no regard of homeowner being unemployed or a pensioner…At least with water charge you were getting a real service and could reduce waste….
@John003: but given figures if water usage in Ireland versus other countries you are trying to fix a problem we don’t have. Borrowing a billion for meters is about 60 million a year over 10 years on top of operating costs the billing system is costing almost 100 million a year. For what exactly?
It wasn’t just IW. They, along with FF also have made a total hash of the property market. These parties are a total joke. I wouldn’t put them in charge of anything.
@Adrian: would you give them any credit at all for taking the country through an existential economic crisis?
@Malvolio32: excellent question. Undoubtedly things are better. Why weren’t they a shoo in at last election? The answer imho is their own arrogance and their public perception. Take the man DoB – gets a company with a big write down that we cover and a contract for meters thrown in. Sure it was nearly cost neutral. FG advisors couldn’t see or react to the issue. Their Monaghan councillor and TD involved in the sting and beating up people kind of became them. They have a shallow gene pool, 30k out of ; million members. Pathetic really
No. Ireland suffered more than most countries because of the way these clueless morons ran and are still running the country. We were one of the PIIGS countries in Europe. That’s 5 countries in the EU out of 28. Proper management and we wouldn’t have gotten into such deep trouble. What sickens me is some of these same morons are still around, still influencing things.
Same way as housing and health cover.
Oh man, she’s only saying this as she thinks it’s what people want to hear. Behind closed doors most of them do not believe it was a cock up. It was only a cock up because people disagreed with it.
@Nick Drake: I don’t know. Hogan was given 2 years to force this through before his move as a thank you. Same with the CEO – retirement was to be brought forward. It was a cockup in that regard. Their plan was clear but detailed by right2water and the silent majority ignoring their bills. More people weren’t paying than voted for FG in their landslide victory and they ignored that. Even today they send that fool Farrell out as a quasi spokesman.
Fine Gael.
There are more cock-ups than a Jilly Cooper novel.
Two – dirty and low Banker-Taxes, water and property, so either way… it`s a colossal waste of money, and they should be lined-up for it.
This was far from a cock-up this was set up with vested interests in mind FG with the help of LAB rushed this through the in 3 hrs in the dail.
@Gerald Gallagher: well said! And the first part of payout is complete with the taxpayer holding the baby. Phase 2 needs to be stopped
Regina: You should be Taoiseach with that kind of insight.
There is as much of a chance of me paying for water as an Arab paying for Sand. I’m enjoying watching the water charge fail .
The likes of you Regina will soon be gone. With you condescending raised eye brows. You never represented anything decent in Ireland. You represent the opposite of what it means to be Irish. Go over to Europe and see do they want you cause we don’t. You are disgusting and your party for the rich. Can’t wait for the dawning of a new day when they likes of you are kicked to the kirb.
Yes they did.They used a sieve
Regina looks as if shes taking one up the ass in that pic.
Looks like shes enjoying it too.
Just saying.
@Maurice Quille: What, a cock up?
@Maurice Quille: no need for that stuff.
@Maurice
I have three asses (Donkeys) in case she doesn’t know and I have room for one more as a lot of them will be going out to Grass after the next election
@Debbie Fahey: could be Debbie, could be.
Lol, I hope that fool Coveney wins the leadership battle, he just doesn’t listen to anyone…..it would be another nail in FG’s coffin..
Another massive protest I see today aswell
Shame on you FG out out out traitors
Ms Doherty is all Stupidity & Waffly personified together.
Doherty is a cock-up in human form
“How we put forwa
…. forward that policy …. 3 hours discussion and guillotined. Why? Because they knew the business case wouldn’t stand up. It still soesnr
I think it belongs at the bottom of the list of cock ups
Flow gently, sweet Afton, among thy green braes,. Flow gently, I’ll sing thee a song in thy praise;.
@Regina: people will pay for metered water provided there is an exemption for “inability to pay” AND their Car Tax on pre-2008 cars (which is the main source of funds for water services) is reduced to the rate for new Mercedes of €280 per annum ….. get real.
32,000 signed this petition: https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law
Political class in legacy parties …thick chickens.
Fianna Fáil flip-flopping & their stance on this issue prove they haven’t changed or learned anything. They are still an irresponsible populist party who would sell their own mothers if they thought there was a few votes in it. They are even willing to hop into bed with the likes of PBP & Sinn Fein.
No shit Sherlock!
FG say it was a cock up and still they persist and Long live the cock
Brian Cowen, served as Minister for Finance and Taoiseach in the late 2000′s…… like 2999…. thought we were just starting the 21st century
Who voted her in
It was not a cock up , it was a blatant attempt to rob the people by a both fine gael and labour to set up their cronies in a lucrative business and nothing more,but the people saw through the charade,same with Fat Phil and his property tax with his cool new Job in Europe,the people do not forget so easily,,,,,,,,,,,remember the tax on childrens shoes?
When money collected for water and road tax it should be spent on them otherwise we don’t know what we are paying for.I would suggest that all governments done this, so now water infrastructure is in a terrible state and we are playing catchup.
Well in that case where do FG go in relation to Doherty. I think that is the third time that she has kicked the traces in Government. This internal battle with Varadkar and Coveney is damaging the Government . Doherty is now telling her own gang that they made a cock up, where to from here?
I propose a protest here by the tax payers of the country against SF, FF and the lefties.
Leave you taps on for a week or two and see how they deal with it.
I’m sick of paying for everything.
The tax base must be widened and the party that does this should get the vote of the taxpayer
Whether you agree with the charges or not, the method that it was introduced was absurd. It should have been a progressive taxation for a start, not regressive. As well as that, they spent more money collecting the taxes than they actually received in tax, making it economically inept. What we need now is stability in the government; as soon as we get that we can regroup and decide where the best place is to increase revenue. Like it or not, the government need money to fund for everyone and thats going to come in the form of tax.
have your say