We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
FRESH LEGAL ADVICE to the water committee on their final report on water charges has said that water meters should be installed in all newly-built houses.
The senior counsel, who also advised the committee last week on the report, recommended meters be included for new builds and building refurbishments to ensure Ireland complies with the European Union’s Water Framework Directive.
This is a departure from last week’s advice to the committee, however, the counsel states the substantial changes made to this section could “cause difficulty”.
The latest advice also makes reference to including levies for those who waste water under the Water Services Act 2007.
Fianna Fáil maintains the Act could be beefed up to deal with charging those who waste water. The legal advice to the committee states that this can be done through amending the legislation.
The committee has been advised there is an issue with some of the “phraseology” in the report and recommends the use of term “excess use” be included in the final report in relation to levies.
The 20-member committee, which was tasked to deal with the issue of charges, metering and ownership, is to vote on the final report this afternoon.
The senior counsel is currently briefing the committee on the advice submitted.
Labour and Fine Gael were expected to vote against the report earlier, prior to the legal advice. It is now unclear what the outcome may be.
Once the report is accepted, the government is bound to bring forward legislation within one month.
Solidarity-PBP’s Paul Murphy, who is a member of the committee, questioned why there has been a ”180″ in the advice given to the committee.
“This is a political report from a committee and we should vote on it today as it is, pass it and abolish water charges and listen to the people,” he told TheJournal.ie.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
They will literally do everything at this stage to ensure our water is sold off (obrien? Teneo?).
Even if it mean taking a drumming at the next election, they’ll take the hit as they know they’ll bounce back in a few years, just like ff did.
@William Clay: Yes, they’ll do anything to sell it off.
Except, y’know, make any effort to sell it off
Emeralds. Well why don’t they hold a referendum??
@ray.farrelly: A referendum would be most welcome. Keep our water in public ownership.
Denis o’brien putting pressure on enda again.
FG&Labour took medical cards off the most ill children & made thousands homeless by cutting rent allowance. All the while FG & Labour were able to spend half a billion putting in water meters & intended to spend twice that putting in meters. They started metering in 2012/13 when savage austerity was imposed on the least well off as the ERSI proved the poorest were affected by FG&Labour.Irish Water is FG’s pet project & was quickly&shamelessly adopted by Tesco ad LIARS Labour & became Alan Kelly’s favourite policy,that he loved being the minister in charge & imposed charges along with ALL labour’s BROKEN promises against their DECEIVED 2011 voters. Howlin,Joan Burton, Jan O’Sullivan & Alan “celebrated pulling a sex face after being elected on umpteenth count” Kelly still haven’t learned
@Abcd: well it worked, the country is growing now at the fastest rate in Europe and the resources will start coming in to improve services for all.
@KerryBlueMike: it’s growing with zero contract hours and people getting three days work per week and being then subsidised with dole. I wouldn’t call that progress
Would be grossly irresponsible for any party to pass a new law which we know would incur fines.
Shouldn’t be too difficult to get compliant phrasing.
We all know water charges are dead and buried.
@Brinster: We don’t KNOW actually. The decision solely lies with the ECJ and any such process has not even begun.
Even at that the likely fines, according to experts on European law, would still be LESS than its costing the Irish public to keep Irish Waters billing system running.
@The Risen: “….likely fines…would still be LESS than its costing the Irish public to keep Irish Waters billing system running.”
Agreed – with a query
IW billing system isn’t running at the moment, is it?
So installing water meters with new builds (an incremental cost to the builder) wouldn’t cost the State anything, would it?
@Brinster: It would actually. The cost of the meters, the cost of replacing them every x number of years, the labour costs of doing so, taking readings…..and so on.
@The Risen: So what to cut off our nose to spite our faces -we ignore the water meters already installed and just go ahead and pay fines while doing nothing with an entity at present which is administering on behalf of the councils the nations water supply.
Why not reform the already existing entity – make it fit for purpose – reduce the amount of taxation that is being diverted towards water presently and make the new taxation by a different name a metered charge – therefore ensuring that those with means pay more for their water than those that cannot afford it. This will also mean that the champagne socialists in SF won’t have to offer their support to the laid off workers of irish water in the future.
Or we can just cut off our noses – jesus christ Brexit/Trumps America/wars in middle east/terrorism/hse fcked/gardai in disarray/Le pen in France. Ireland – water charges. There they go the Thick f****g paddies.
@The Risen: Wouldn’t they all be part of a water conservation initiative, though?
So separate and distinct from water charges?
@Old Gabby Johnson: “and just go ahead and pay fines ”
What fines? There are no fines. There is a possibility of a court case, with a much smaller possibility of a fine which would most likely be much smaller than the cost of continuing to install meters and run Irish Waters reading/billing arm.
Its about privatisation, but you know that already.
@Brinster: they are trying to use compliance with EU to hide their (FG) own agenda over that of the committee. How does that stand up in face of the EU ruling on Apple???? That 13 BILLION would go a long way to helping homeless, people waiting years to get medical treatment and fund schools. Sad indictment of politics and politicians in this country. As Haughey said, it’s a great little country to do business in’ – maybe but it’s a hole to live in under this lot in power.
@The Risen: Privatisation? tin foil hats to the ready – even after a referendum you and your ilk would still say it was about privatisation – its a buzzword – its simple has no logic or truth behind it but its a good one to use – and those people on the doorsteps can use it as well.. bigly.
@Old Gabby Johnson: The water services act 2012 and T&Cs of Irish Water all had the vehicle for privatisation built into them.
@Gerry Carroll: This is about NEW legislation.
Regardless of the EU’s opinion of any old Irish legislation, introducing new legislation in the full knowledge that it is non-compliant would be irresponsible.
@The Risen: “The water services act 2012 and T&Cs of Irish Water all had the vehicle for privatisation built into them”
If you want to interpret them that way -but considering that the Dáilwould have to allow that sort of change – it would be the ‘will of the people’ would it not? Besides those in favour of water charges have said many times (and one is in the offing) of enshrining the ownership of water to the irish people) By the way no one is saying the water isn’t the peoples – they are saying that in order to utilise it to its fullest we have to pay for people to administer it, fix it, and make it safe for consumption.
@Old Gabby Johnson: Irish Water is a private limited company, EU Commission policy is to privatise utilities and to take utilities and related services out of the public sector, there is pressure of the Government to take Irish Water and the cost of massive public infrastructural deficit off the public exchequer balance sheet and DOB has plenty of friends and connections in the EU Commission to drive privatisation.
Denis O’ Brien, Michael Lowry, Phil Hogan and Enda Kenny.
@Old Gabby Johnson: Gabby feel free to pay away. Reducing taxes to put metered water in homes is a non starter as they would only increase the taxes when everyone is compliant!!! They can Fcuk right off. And that doesn’t make us stupid Paddies for standing up for our rights either
@Old Gabby Johnson: We do pay but then you know that and after all the years of the water debacle , everyone knows so why keep the charade up, the vast majority of people , in excess of seventy per cent have voted for direct water charges to end and for an end to Irish water, so all the shenanigans by FG/FF to try and force their will on the people is seen for what it is and we will not forget that we did not need to ever have water charges imposed on us, that it was in fact a policy decision by these parties,
@Brinster:
Everyone will be paying for water tax will now go up Don’t think for one minute that water is free it’s not we will find out sooner rather than later.
@Mary Murphy: That is always the reply from the no side . You did not answer Gabby’s point except to say feel free . My view is there are tax hikes on the way for water usage you have given the Government the best excuse ever to bring in more cash
@The Risen: that’s like saying, I will keep speeding because the odd time I get fined, it will be worth it.
If it is unlawful, the ECJ will, and do, ramp up fines and issue other sanctions. So it is inconceivable that the Irish government could ignore it – probably start in the 10 million a year and go up from there until the gov comply. then we will have the cost of retrofitting all new builds etc.
I’ve read the WFD and by any plain and ordinary reading, meters/charging is required – some of us have been saying same since the start of this debacle
@Gavin Daly: And can you tell us mere mortals of your legal qualifications?
@The Risen: I work in planning & environmental law
@Brinster: They are non compliant on mortgage contracts. And from what i’ve read here they pay fines because of VRT.
They like to pick and choose what laws are politically expedient and to hell with the rest.
FG and FF will do all they can to keep the agenda of privatisation going. In the mean time metered water charges will be used to pay off the bank bail out. Even though only the other day Coveney admitted in a radio interview that the existing indirect method of paying for water yeilds 1.2 billion a year.
They will have revolution if they keep this up. It will be the only recourse people have.
Enough is enough, no more using the excuse of “Europe” to force this water tax and eventual privatisation on people. The Trokia got the blame for the austerity measures even though they never told the government where to apply the cuts. That was entirely up to the government to choose.
@Dave Doyle: such drama, revolution my eye. We are growing at a good rate and once the housing initiatives kick in we will see a proper upturn in the quality of life of all the citizens. More people working will give whatever government the resources to enhance public services.
@KerryBlueMike: What housing initiatives? Mortgage to rent?? Another neoliberal goal.
A bit of drama is what’s needed now. Peaceful protests have been ignored. A French style one might focus their minds.
@Dave Doyle: The VRT thing is an urban legend, Dave.
Quite simply, it is a myth that we pay VRT fines.
Lost count of the number of times people on here have been challenged and no one has ever been able to provide any evidence of EU fines.
The Revenue website confirms that it simply isn’t true.
@Dave Doyle: Millions of euros have been provided to refurbish and build for the social housing sector. The likes of Dublin city’s left led council are typically dragging their feet in making things happen.
Anyone else reckon that the FF/FG spat was manufactured to give the impression prior to last weekends national protest that water charges were finished?
Glad it didn’t work. Keep poking the hornets nest lads, see how it works out for you come election time.
@The Risen:
There’s a rumour afoot that Fine Gael manufactured the controversy to take the spotlight away from the Garda debacle.
@The Risen: Hard to know Brendan – but FF are exposed as charlatans yet again, and Fine Gael are weak.
@Old Gabby Johnson: Who’s Brendan??
The public are sick of fg and labour.
@Mick Johnson: I would love to know what makes me a skanger while I sit here in work paying tax (water tax aleady included in that) PRSI, USC, car tax to get to work, petrol tax to get to work, VAT on food I need for lunch and every other tax we pay in this country. So please, feel free and explain to me what makes me a “skanger” for not refusing to pay twice for water along with most of the country.
@Mick Johnson: So you’re a skanger if you don’t want to pay for your water three times..
@Mick Johnson: i think the public are more sick of getting taxes rammed down their throat for nothing in return. But hey mick, you keep taking crap from the government if you want just be happy in the knowledge that some people will stand up for what’s right.
@David: David, what rate is the water tax? I wan’t aware a water tax.
@Nick Drake: *of
@@mdmak33: The public outside the hand-out/pay for nothing brigade in Dublin are sick to death of hearing about water charges.
@Old Gabby Johnson: I see you’ve made yourself official spokesperson for ‘the public outside the handout brigade’.
Pretty silly comment seeing as though most of the protesters have full time jobs.
Looks like Mick is a bit of a half wit or a FG mouthpiece. Either way, not very intelligent. How many times does it have to be explained that water is paid for already and the public have crushed this fake company? Maybe if I draw a picture using crayons might finally make the penny drop. People have woken up to all the scams in our rotten, filthy establishment and this is the scam that broke the camel’s back.
@David: you would pay less tax if people who never pay for anything were made to pay for what they use.
@John Mulligan: John, if this were a competent government and an ideal world, that would be the case. Both you, I and everyone else know that this wouldn’t be the case. The additional tax taken would go to (insert, any major party financer with a newly, magically set up company, here) and the general public would see no benefit.
@Ronan Sexton: If waters paid for already obviously everybody in ireland has a fully functional clean water supply.
If not then enough money wasn’t being paid for it. That means more taxes for us. Thanks for that.
How many times does it have to be explained that if people paid their water charges in the first place that we would be paying for it twice!
Funny people on here say they don’t want to pay twice yet they are perfectly happy to let rural dwellers pay for their local water schemes AND pay for city water through their taxes is paying twice. As long as it’s not you paying twice though eh?!?
The fact is that it was the first time ever that the skanger was asked to fork out for anything and because they have lots of time on their hands, they revolted. This country is in for serious long term issues as their lack of contribution and birth rates are so high. Working people will in a couple of generations be outnumbered by the swelling scrounger class.
@Mick Johnson: you’re comment says so much about you. Ignorance is no excuse. How is it a ridiculous issue exactly? Please do elaborate. It’s a massive issue unless of course you don’t use water! So – do explain your comment as I could use a laugh when on my way home from work today.
@Mick Johnson: Mick have you dehydrated yourself there? You seem a bit foolish
@Old Gabby Johnson: no we are not!!! We are standing for our rights Old Gobby and if you don’t want to join us feel free to pay away
Good one Mary! Bravo
@Mick Johnson: Such a little distraction this water business isn’t it, this most important ingredient to life being enabled for privatisation is such an annoyance. Why can’t the plebs just do as they’re told eh?
There’s more to life than what greets you in the mirror Mick.
@Mick Micky: not actually the first time, Mick. Remember the way the skangers in Dublin protested the introduction of bin charges too, despite the fact that the rest of the country had been paying them for years?
@Jumperoo: Yes how could I forget that old chestnut!
We really are is serious trouble with all of these skangers
@Mick Micky: you’re a great man for the generalisations. Stop trying to make this a city vs country issue, house prices and fees balance out cost of living per dwelling.
This is about another quango that does not benefit your average Joe, skanger or no skanger
Mick Micky mouse. Skangers. Is that the best the fraperoom has got.
@Old Gabby Johnson: I think you’ll find most tax dodgers are actually non-dom like Denis O’Brien etc.
@Mick Johnson: People are sick of people like you spreading lies. Idiot.
@@mdmak33: you not including ff in that?
@SteveW: Which lie is that? Would be handy if you outlined?!
@Mick Johnson: It is and unnecessary. But the government won’t listen to those they represent, they only listen to vested interest.
They’ve ignored the will of the people. If they keep going down that road, the consequences will be on their heads.
@John Mulligan: Do you think that we would actually pay less tax? Dont even answer that because I am not answering your ridiculous question because it would never happen
@Mick Johnson: obviously a well paid civil servant
@John Mulligan: they pay road tax and vat t
@Mick Micky: “How many times does it have to be explained that if people paid their water charges in the first place that we would be paying for it twice!”
This has been explained countless times before. It shouldn’t need to be explained again. But I will defer to your ignorance. Irish citizens pay an additional 2% VAT on practically everything that they purchase. This extra 2% tax was initiated by Fianna Fail in government, with the express stated purpose of paying for our water service. In addition, the same government legislated to divert part of the monies collected from car tax to also pay for water. Neither of these methods of paying for our water has been discontinued. We are still paying for water through these two devices.
“Funny people on here say they don’t want to pay twice yet they are perfectly happy to let rural dwellers pay for their local water schemes AND pay for city water through their taxes is paying twice. As long as it’s not you paying twice though eh?!?”
The owners of Group Water Schemes are entitled to both grants and ongoing allowances. Some of the largest users of water are farmers who contribute very little in income tax. So look closer to home if you are looking for “skangers” who want “everything for nothing.”
Your closing paragraph merely serves to illustrate your lack of character and is not worthy of a reply.
Water Meters are the hardware of privatisation and that is why there is huge resistance to them. Access to water should never be determined by the size of ur wallett
@#Right2waterApril8th: Correct. Like the expert from Welsh water told the committee, the only logical reason to fit domestic meters is to charge for water.
In our case, thats privatisation.
@#Right2waterApril8th: ‘The hardware of privatisation’ – jesus christ almighty.
@Old Gabby Johnson: Gobby how Fcuking stupid are you?? Really!!!!
@Mary Murphy: he is merely naïvely gullible. I suspect that he actually believes in what he has been told.
@Tony Daly: Yeah you’re right Tony – unlike you doesn’t believe what they are told – no matter how many people say it – or the evidence to the contrary you believe what you tell yourself. That sounds like smart to me.
@Mary Murphy: he’s very bigly stupid.
@Old Gabby Johnson: why else would you outlay such a high capital spend and operating costs if you can’t fully charge and privatise it.
@Mary Murphy: Do you have to use that type of language on a person.
@Alan Scott: only when I’ve heard oenough stupidity Alan!!!
@Alan Scott: A bit of a snowflake are you Alan?
FF hiding behind this legal advice. It was never going to be otherwise. FF,FG,and Endapendent’s did’nt want an election for financial reasons. Water charges are not dead, either FF, FG will try to bring them in by the back door. We need a referendum to enshrine the public ownership of water and it’s supply enshrined in the constitution.
Whats the legal opinion on the 13 billion europe want to give us.sure any fines we’ll pay it out of that
Gotta keep that gravy train rolling for D.O.B
Law overrides democratic opinion?
@Tony Daly: I sincerely hope so.
@Tony Daly: It’s not even that clear cut, its ‘legal opinion telling the government what it wants to hear overriding democratic opinion’.
Will the legal opinion obtained at public expense be published?
If or when water is fully privatised, it will cost each household more than €2,000 per annum, even disregarding infrastructural investment and a profit to generate IRR. This assumes 1.5 million households and no waivers.
A privatised water supply will mark the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of the State, impoverishing many for the enrichment of a few.
@Tony Daly: my opinion is it won’t be privatized. Let’s have the referendum to ensure it won’t.
@KerryBlueMike: first of all, we need to shut down thia clusterfack of a fake company which serves absolutely no purpose.
@Ronan Sexton: I don’t agree with you there. We have the heavy lifting done now, it’s set up, just the issue of financing the massive investment needed to look after our water provision and waste disposal going forward.
Groundhog day again.
Political interference and a corruption of democracy by FG. Legal advice my ar*e, anyone can get legal advice to suit their purposes. The people have spoken and it suits FG to adhere to EU law when it suits them…what about the Apple ruing? We can always negotiate another derogation or revive the one that FG/LAB tore up. So if FG had not torn up the last derogation then we would not be ‘breaking’ EU law and need now these so these so called legal ‘advices’. However, we can insist on another one so this excuse by FG about illegally is a smoke screen to carry on with the introduction of charges though the back door. A devious bunch of shysters who are hiding some hidden agenda through Irish Water. Bring on another election now so we can crystallise matters fgain for these neo liberal globalistic gangsters and frauds
..
The Thatcher privatisation of the water supply resulted in a number of water multi-millionaires.
@Tony Daly: I don’t think Irish water will be privatized. Stop scare mongering.
‘Listen to the people’ whenever i hear that it makes the hair stand up on the back of neck – Mr Murphy with his less than 5% share of the national vote lecturing the rest of the country on ‘listen to the people’ when have the AAA/PBP/Workers Party/Official Sinn Fein/Democratic Left/ Socialst Party – or whatever new name they call themselves have ever listened to the people? Populists, left and right the world over are getting elected with the same sort of rhetoric – of all the problems this country is about to face and we’re getting animated about water charges… I mean think about it we’re paying for water as is – but we are not paying nearly enough in city areas – rural communities have been paying twice for water for years. The communities which Murphy represents have their hand out constantly – while the rest of the country pays for it. It doesn’t even make sense that a socialist would be against a metered water system ensuring that those with the biggest homes pay more… he’s a snake oil salesman.
@Old Gabby Johnson: “Mr Murphy with his less than 5% share of the national vote lecturing the rest of the country on ‘listen to the people’”
With 73% non compliance of bill payment, I reckon its safe to assume getting rid of water charges would be ‘listening to the people’.
@Old Gabby Johnson: completely agree. Paul Murphy got elected on one agenda. Don’t pay for your water. I think everyone should pay for water and not only the people in the country who have always paid for water! If you could not afford to pay there would have been a waiver! I think the Government should have had the balls to continue collecting the charges and let us all get used to the fact that so much work has to be done on the delapdated system we have and the money has to come from somewhere. I am a pensioner and paid the water charges as did all my family and friends. I would have also continued to pay to help make sure that there would be a fantastic water system for our children and Grandchildren.
@The Risen: I guess a lot of people wouldn’t pay their car tax either if there was no consequence for doing so.
If FF/FG brought in water charges in the morning – their constituents would pay it if there was fines for non-payment there would be a different mindset – taxes are never popular – but a decision has to be made in life on what quality/quantity of services we need and with a population of 4.5million and only 1 million of these paying for the rest then its a simple matter to me at least.
Of all those people who were out protesting about water i wonder how many get their supply from the local council – do not have to worry about septic tanks, maintenance, water schemes etc – but yet have their Sky Bundle at home. We have weak politicians who like FF in 1977, FG in the eighties and FF under Bertie/Cowen etc make easy choices – as its what the people want – rarely has it been proven what is best for the country as a whole.
@Mary Lyons:
Dear oh dear.
“Paul Murphy got elected on one agenda. Don’t pay for your water. ”
Don’t pay twice you mean.
“If you could not afford to pay there would have been a waiver! ”
Like the bin waiver? Remember those?
“I would have also continued to pay to help make sure that there would be a fantastic water system for our children and Grandchildren.”
And when your children/grandchildren had their water turned off/down to a trickle because a private company jacked up the price of water so high that they could no longer afford to pay their bill, what then??
@The Risen: “And when your children/grandchildren had their water turned off/down to a trickle because a private company jacked up the price of water so high that they could no longer afford to pay their bill, what then??”
Jesus that escalated quickly. You know you may be right that’s why no other country uses water charges.
@Mary Lyons: take the cost of running the billing system out of the social welfare budget then.
@ old gabby Johnston,
Privatization : you seriously missed all the evidence that was all over the IW website when it first launched ? You ignore the section on IW legislation about planned privatization ?
You seriously think our neoliberal govt that preaches the fantasy of ‘trickle down economics’ and the mantra of ‘don’t interfere with the market’ the same Govt that represents banks, bond holders and the super wealthy will not have a desire to copy other countries and privatize our water resource and sell it off to their friends on the cheap?
Your seriously trust FF/FG labor with your kids birth right ? And you are so naive you consider our claims as being ‘tin-hat conspiracies’?
I bet you voted FG in the last election ?
You know tonight I’m going doing my usual water meter sabotage work, but tonight I’ll do it will you in mind!
We the people have been very busy doing our civic duty and have removed so many meters!
But seeing as you repeatedly refuse to take on board that we already pay for our water services through general taxation, tonight I’m going to remove not just my usual 20 meter caps but I’m going to remove another 10 just for you!
@Ibhar Mac Suibhne: No No No -that’s not what Neo liberal means and no i didn’t vote FG.
10/10 for you though on hitting the lingo bingo of Paul Murphy though.. have yourself a lollipop.
@Old Gabby Johnson: how did the journal allow you and your 4 other accounts post here today ?…are you a staffer with the journal? ..I know since the red thumbs were done away with the journal has suffered a loss of revenue. ..are you a staff member using at least 4 accounts?
@Henry Matthews: yes henry you are correct- also i control every other account that doesn’t agree with you. Also i was the second gunman on the grassy knowle.
@Ivor macsweeney you’re a funny guy.
@Mary Lyons: Coveney admitted the other day on a radio programme that at present they collect 1.2 billion a year for water. That’s about 600 euro per household. More than enough to provide a first class water service.
@Old Gabby Johnson: In your rush to name all the parties who never listen to the ‘people’, you omitted the three most prominent parties Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and Labour but don’t worry , pay back will happen and democracy will prevail.
FG can no longer hide their privatisation agenda ….
@Willy Malone: Where has any political party said they want to privatize Irish water?
@KerryBlueMike: if they need to say it outright for you to cop on to it, you’re slow..
@KerryBlueMike: They haven’t the balls to be upfront about their agenda. They use every excuse under the sun to try and hide the real meaning of IW and metering.
@Daffy the Bear: Maybe I’m slow, thanks for the complement. I don’t believe Irish water will be privatized.
I’m sick of FF and FG playing ping pong with this issue Jim oCallaghan was a Solicitor for Irish Water. A leopard does not change his spots Dobby funds the FG Party but he must have something good on several of them that they are going to such lengths to make us pay for his scam. Don’t trust the Legal Profession. Just look at what they did to Clerys. Don’t forget those of us who prepaid our Rates via Stamp Duty. I want a refund! Ak47 Kelly s brother is CEO of Teneo who buy up water companies around the World. What a cesspool of a country we live in!
Irish Water is working on a new brand jingle.
The most recent is “Your water; our money”
Corporate governance dictatorship welcome to 1984 …
Why oh why..doesn’t Ireland leave the EU!!! And f them all .
Does anyone know when FG/FF and labour first embraced the “polluter pays principle” was it before or after the windfall in taxes generated by the carbon tax or bin charges? Where was this principle when councils built sewage infrastructure that still pollutes 42 of our major rivers today. Each summer our beaches are closed because councils/ IW pump human waste straight into our estuaries during any wet spell of weather. It was local councillors and council planning dept that signed off on these practices which now have to be upgraded at huge expense to meet any sort of standard. Its seems principles only exist in politics to suit hidden agenda’s or party donors whims.
FG government are not interested in the people of our country or what they think. They want water charges and they are willing to risk an election to get them in. Extraordinary. FF need to hold firm.
Here is what needs to happen.
1. Irish Water immediately closed and all staff laid off. Unearned bonues paid during the entire course of their employment be subtracted from their redundancy settlement – this is unearned money after all.
2. Referendum to ensure that Ireland’s water supply remain in public ownership.
3. At this point a method of paying for water, metering, infrastructure, billing can be introduced.
4. If a new metering and billing system is to be introduced the motor tax and VAT rates need to be reduced to eliminate what we are already paying for. People cannot be expected to pay twice for something.
@mursim: and the cost of that?
@lavbeer: the cost whom and the loss of opportunity to whom?
@lavbeer: With proper regulation it will be cheaper in the long run as profits can be pumped back into infrastructure.
A privately owned water supply owes loyalty only to its shareholders.
Capitalism is a failed system that needs to go the way of communism.
@mursim: sorry I misread initially. Agee with most
@mursim: sounds like a plan
@Colm Quigley: whatever happens it needs the protection of the constitution to ensure all Irish water assets remain in the ownership for the benefit of the Irish people. There are of course ways around that in outsourcing contractors but ownership needs to be tied down
Funny how FG are so worried about EU law and incurring fines on water, When they incur a fine every time a person buys a car outside the state and then brings it home. The Government break EU law every time they impose this illegal tax, But who is punished when they do this. The citizen is punished he/she pays twice for the governments law breaking. They have to pay the illegal VRT then the government sticks its hand into the peoples pocket again to pay the fine for breaking that EU law . The EU and the government benefit the people pay and pay. The end goal is privatization just like it was in Bolivia. That’s why the legislation to allow privatization only required the agreement of the minister for finance and one other minister in order to sell the entity to the encircling vultures. Go pedal your crap some where else FG and your idiotic far right corporatist supporters on here the lies don’t work anymore.
What I can’t understand is building regulations are not introduced to harvest rainwater to flush toilets maybe use in washing machines as drinking water is too expensive to be flushing toilets.
@Tony Hartigan:
Tony your comment was like a breath of fresh air.
An Idea that’s based on common sense and logic
Well done sir, many thumbs up to you.
@Tony Hartigan: That €100 bribe should be re-offered if rainwater harvesting is installed.
@Ronan Sexton: How many times does it have to be explained that if people paid their water charges in the first place that we would be paying for it twice!
Funny people on here say they don’t want to pay twice yet they are perfectly happy to let rural dwellers pay for their local water schemes AND pay for city water through their taxes is paying twice. As long as it’s not you paying twice though eh?!?
The fact is that it was the first time ever that the skanger was asked to fork out for anything and because they have lots of time on their hands, they revolted. This country is in for serious long term issues as their lack of contribution and birth rates are so high. Working people will in a couple of generations be outnumbered by the swelling scrounger class.
@Mick Johnson: ‘their’ water charges are paid already through the well known by now methods of motor tax and vat.
@Mick Johnson: LPT is where a lot of IW money comes from. Based on property value is wrong. Realign that maybe. A 1 bed apartment can pay more than a 4 bed rural. Don’t pick on specific examples. Have to look at the overall picture.
IW borrowing for the setup are significant. BG got the gig because they had a billing system setup. So they sold it. Ridiculous right? The total ownership of IW billing system per year is maybe 150 million?
@Mick Johnson: jesus. Actual facepalm. So, someone else is paying twice, so everyone elso should then. Great logic. Do you pay for shopping twice? Or petrol? About time you dropped the lame “scrounger class” tag. It really makes you look a bit thick seeing that the majority of the people who stood up to this corrupt scam are working peolle, paying tax, you know, for things like water.
@Mick Johnson: Urban dwellers are quite happy to see rural dwellers pay a lower rate of LPT.
@Ronan Sexton: Water is a utility, like electricity. Our taxes go to fund all the public services provided, education, health, justice, roads & civil service. All of these are striving for more funding to try to bring them up to scratch. It is ridiculous to have a scenario where we want to continue to have our water supply and waste disposal pulling out of general taxation as well. A model is in place and it should be funded by every household making a contribution.
@KerryBlueMike: You can live without electricity, hard, but it can be done.
You can not live without water.
Water poverty, which we do not have is the last thing we need.
@KerryBlueMike: stop abo
@mike – the business case. You can’t justify it. The you need to apply the same to BE drivers no? Up to 200 million a year on debt repayments to IW billing system. Good value in comparison to Anglo I suppose
@eastsmer #IRExit: Of course we can’t live without water, there is no fear of water poverty. I am not some neo liberal Tory. The country has to spend more and more to aliiviate social inequality. That money has to be raised and lots of it. The narrowing tax base we have in this country just will not provide the resources we need.
@lavbeer: it’s a public utility, providing a public service if you like. What’s the business case for health or teachers? We have to have them they are a service the community require, like water. Just like those services a contribution must be made by the user. Parents top up “free education” every week, prescription charges are the norm, a&e take money off people when they go in.
The hope is that Irish water will work as the esb has worked for the improvement of the utility it provides.
@KerryBlueMike: Lads I’m off to bed, 5am beckons, this working for a living is vastly over rated. Good night, take care, Erin go Bragh!
People bellyaching about paying a fiver a week in water charges and paying €10, €20,€30, €40, €50, €60+ per week in usc? Madness.
@KerryBlueMike: It is not ‘a fiver a week’, was not and will never be a fiver a week.
Meters and their replacement after 15 years of use, gold plated billing companies and ‘investors’ do not get enough from ‘a fiver a week’
@eastsmer #IRExit: well I paid and it wasn’t even a fiver a week, I just thought I’d round it up for you.
@KerryBlueMike: let’s pay more because we are paying other things. Great logic. People had a choice not to pay into this corrupt filthy scam. They didn’t with the property scam and the usc ‘temporary’ scam, when the corrupt arsewholes are dipping into our wage packets.
@Ronan Sexton: Well the alternative logic is that a smaller and smaller tax base has to pay for everything. No future in that. Pay the bill.
@KerryBlueMike: work out how much it costs to borrow a billion over 20 years at say 5%. They wasted more but let’s take that. Add the staff operating cost. So the mere basics of the billing system and see if you think it’s value for money. We don’t have a conservation problem. All before we add any core business of water value.
@lavbeer: sure half of the spend comes back to the tax take through all the various taxes. We have it up and running now, no one disputes that, even Sinn Fein agreed that that Irish water as a centralized utility is best placed to look after our water supply and waste treatment. The only dispute is how to pay. Sinn Fein and Fianna Fáil only got a dose of the flip flops when Paul Murphy shocked them in the by election. Pay the bill and let’s see if we can get taxes on work reduced. Maybe leave usc alone and reduce income tax. The rich lads don’t like usc, it’s harder to dodge whereas income tax is easier to manipulate.
@KerryBlueMike: the operating costs aren’t too bad compared to the borrowed costs. Nothing comes back to the state for that. Your rationale now is it is too big to fail. Keep IW and shutdown the billing system. Meter replacement programs are probably already in planning. All to catch 8% of the population? Madness
@lavbeer: stopping the metering program I assume remains in place?
@lavbeer: The madness is excluding vast swathes of the adult population from paying for water supply and waste disposal.
@lavbeer: It would be totally ridiculous to stop the metering programme, especially in new builds where the cost would be minuscule compared to retro fitting.
@KerryBlueMike: so why not add 100 to every LPT ? No collection costs. No avoidance. Include social housing. What does meters give us over and above chasing 70k households for a nominal sum. The business case doesn’t stack up
@KerryBlueMike: new builds is fine me. But the other 300k plus wells – why?
@lavbeer: Interesting point, your suggestion would ensure a much larger proportion of the adult population would contribute directly. The one issue I’d have is the inherent unfairness of the lpt in that the occupier doesn’t have to pay, just the owner.
@lavbeer: All in it together would be the reasoning. Every dwelling metered.
@KerryBlueMike: then fix LPT. Other countries have it as a split between owner and lease holder. Would force the owner to register with PRTB or take the hit.
When you have spent another 300 million on metering the rest and then you know 10% are overusing for whatever reason. And your interest repayments with principal are over the 200 million mark a year. What then? A lot of money spent to learn what we already know
@lavbeer: Agreed about the split and more enforcement of complying with prtb.
@lavbeer: The utility is there and will be a service like the esb. Once it’s up and running it will be a good asset to the community.
@KerryBlueMike: is there …. once it is up and running. The billing system debt you will just ignore? The assets transferred to that company are now in danger. I take you can’t offer a business case other than the sure it will be grand?
@lavbeer: well it is basically up and running as we speak, the leak fixes are being made daily and at last we have a centralized system for the oversight and development of everything water & waste. Of course the start up costs are massive and could have been managed better but the only debate as far as I am aware is the ongoing financing.
@KerryBlueMike: and the massive borrowing to fund a billing system at certainly north of 100 million a year is okay when that system won’t even break even. You can argue long term value and I might agree with you but a practically bankrupt country? Look at Anglo and FG great deal. That will cost even more over the next 50 years. FG didn’t have money for this. Business case ? Can you even put a semi argument forward? This is a waste of money beyond reason for a company so much in debt
@KerryBlueMike: Good for you, you probably volunteered your personal details and are happy to contribute towards Audi A6′s, laughing yoga etc. etc.
Personally I am not nor ever will be a ‘customer’ of IW.
@KerryBlueMike: good to have decent debate Mike. Hope you can get online. Can anyone else cost justify the business case? Any pro IW posters?
@lavbeer: It really is narrowed down to the financing of Irish water. The user pays idea is what the discussion is at now. Irish water is here , all that has to be decided is how it will be able to raise the massive amounts of money required to bring us up to twentieth century standards. We will leave twenty first century standards for later.It does appear that under Eu rules the government can not just keep financing The provision of water and treatment of waste from general taxation.
@eastsmer #IRExit: Sure everyone has my personal details and probably yours too. My issue with all this anti water charges commotion is the shrinking of the tax base in this country. We can not hope to develop as a society with just a narrow section being charged on their income as the primary revenue source to cover all costs.
@KerryBlueMike: only a fiver the first year
It’s time for all water meters to be removed from homes another march and dump them all at the gates of Leinster Hse.
Then they might get the message.
First and foremost. What on earth is Irish Water doing about the drastic political situation in the north of this country. When will we be a nation once again? Not soon if Irish Water has it’s way!
Mr Murphy is dead right
FF will do the dirty on its voters
It makes sense to water put meters in new houses. Expense of installations to existing houses to date was premature and unwelcome – like Irish Water☹️
This will benefit SF come next election…so “why worry…be happy”
This is worth a read:
https://humanrights.ie/economic-rights/the-right-to-water-and-privatisation-in-ireland/#more-18006
This is also worth reading :
http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/who-owns-our-water-in-europe-and-does-it-matter
Both links and articles describe quite well I think the future of Irelands water.
Senior council can say what ever they like.
There has never been any case like this tried in a court so senior council can only give a personal opinion but it means nothing with out the ruling of a judge.
Don’t trust anything they say at this stage.
The whole thing is rotten the the core.
LETS ALL SHOUT ABUSE AT EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!
Of course people should be penalised for water wastage. What sane person would think it ok to waste water and no penalty
@Rtr Rtrttr: Who is wasting water ? 41% is already wasted in leaking pipes that are not repaired due to a focus on billing that will only pay for billing.
Dear Sir/Madam,
Do you need funding?
Do you need a loan?
Do you need Business or personal Loan?
Do you wish to refinance your company?
We give out loan to any individual and company at 2% interest rate
yearly. For more information, Contact Email:harrybensonloaninvestment@gmail.com
Name:
Country:
Amount:
Phone number:
Regards
Harry Benson.
have your say