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Updated at 9.35am
A NEW BILL that will make it illegal for retail outlets to sell a mobile phone with internet access to minors under the age of 14 is currently being drafted.
Under the proposed Internet Access for Minors Bill 2017, it will also be illegal for parents to allow their children born after 2015 to own a portable device which has the internet.
According to Fine Gael’s Jim Daly, who has been working on the Bill for a number of months, the primary aim is to introduce a new law that will force device manufacturers to develop a “child-friendly” mobile phone or tablet, which has limited access to the web.
While the drafting is in the early stages, it’s understood other aspects include making it illegal for any commercial outlet to provide access to Wi-Fi without identification.
Speaking this morning on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, Daly warned of the dangers unsupervised internet access posed to children.
“Essentially you’re giving your child of seven or eight years of age a mobile device that allows them to access unlimited pornography of every type,” he said.
How will this be enforced?
A retail outlet caught selling a device to a minor will be subject to a fine not exceeding €100. Similarly, parents who are deemed to have broken the law by allowing a child to independently own or use a device unsupervised will also face a penalty.
Speaking to TheJournal.ie yesterday, Daly said this penalty is similar to the legal position for the consumption of alcohol in Ireland by minors, where it is an offence to give alcohol to a minor under the age of 18 unless in a domestic setting unless they have parental consent.
“I do not see this as Nanny State policing, but rather a law in place to assist parents to say no to their eight, nine or 10-year-old who is begging to own one of these devices because all of their friends have one,” he said.
The West Cork TD said the new law would prevent children from accessing content that is not suitable for their viewing and deter children from engaging in social media sites which are aimed at teenagers.
‘What age are you happy for them to see pornography?’
“When people ask me, ‘what age should my child be before I buy them a such a device?’ I reply: ‘whatever age you are happy with them viewing pornography,’” said Daly.
He said restricting children’s unsupervised access to the internet will help eradicate cyber-bullying and will force a debate on an issue which he claims is “robbing children of their childhood”.
Looking at my own experience as a parent to six young children, and as a former school principal, I am very conscious and very aware of the challenges and dangers posed. I am particularly aware of the pressure that is on parents, where your eight year old comes home and says they want an iPhone for Christmas because everyone in their class has an iPhone.
The chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Children and Youth Affairs said he fully expects to face some criticism about the Bill.
“Of course there will be much accusations about this being Nanny State and how do you enforce it, with people perhaps calling this law a joke,” he said.
However, he said there is universal appetite for this issue to be tackled. Daly said he has spoken to parents, child welfare groups, TDs and members of Cabinet about his plans.
I think as a parent it would be hugely helpful if there was guidance, regulation and indeed laws in the State that will allow me, as a parent, to say to my child ‘it is illegal to have device at your age’.
I think there will be significant support from parents. A lot parents are at the stage that I am, where they are really feeling very, very inadequate at rising to the challenges that are presenting themselves in the online space in relation to protecting their children.
Daly concluded by stating that safety online is the single, greatest challenge of our time in terms of child protection.
With reporting from Cormac Fitzgerald
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Unenforceable law is bad law.
@mickmc: indeed! And did I miss something where the rationale behind a minor slap of a 100 euro fine was supposed to encourage manufacturers to make child friendly phones? They can be made child friendly already! And couldn’t they just make a law demanding such choice from manufacturers? Or is this another sneaky tax under the guise of supposed interest in children? We can ensure they can’t access porn but we can’t ensure they all have a roof over their heads? What hope is there for us with his lot?
@Noirin Kavanagh: I totally agree with you noirin, its like they (the gov) make it look like they’re doin somethig but all they are doing is waisting our time and our money! No hope fir this country as long as the old fashioned farts of this country are still running
They need to sit down and think this one out. The parents can install software and so on or again the shop could make agreements with manufacturers or install their own and activate either on purchase with proof of age. Same applies for tablets which most kids have and are now part of education.
@James O’Brien: I couldn’t agree more. The ISP’s, the mobile Corporations, and the software giants, have a role to play here and need to be more accountable. Putting all of the responsibility for staying within the law on the individual adult citizens, is just another lazy way out, and an opportunistic way of adding another stealth tax.
@James O’Brien:
How many children under the age of 14 walk in to purchase their own phone or tablet?
What if the item was bought over the internet from the UK? Are our Gardai going to arrest someone in Amazon.co.uk?
Putting the responsibility on the easy target, the Irish retailer.
Are the Gardai now going to take phones off young children until they prove how old they are?
How exactly is this law to be enforced?
Big Brother law strikes again.
We really are a nanny state.
@James O’Brien: video game consoles also access the internet, smart televisions not just phones, android boxes .. this is not going to stop anything and how would it be enforced within the home or in areas outside the home. Are they going to employ people to snatch internet devices of children to see what they are doing?
@Alan Cooke: you totally missed the point point.
Educating parents is the way to go, not the manufacturers. There are already parental controls available on every device, and there are child friendly devices such as the Epic by leapfrog. The problem is parents just give the device to the kids without setting anything up on it beforehand.
@Andy K: Exactly. My children school organised a talk on internet safety. All parents were encouraged to attend. Myself and one other parent turned up. A lot of parents either turn a blind eye or are unaware of the dangers.
Friend of mine wouldn’t be the most tech savvy. Her outlook is oh well the kid knows more than I do, what’s the point in trying to control it. I’ve set up a profile for my 10y/o on the laptop, he knows how to use it, no problem. But I set up the safe guards, just in case!!
At least they are still at the writing stage so they have time to refine some of the issues they are looking to create. I suspect having to show ID to access a WiFi network may have an issue or two and they referring to children owning devices, thats a very different thing to using a device. The general ideal of protecting children is a good one, but more work required.
Nanny state at its worst. There are way worse things to see on the net then adults having sex with each other.
@james o reilly: and its the ‘worse’ that they need protecting from. My son accidentally came across an Isis beheading about a year ago and was deeply shaken by it.
@Jackie Caruana: Then you obviously didnt set up parental controls, or educate your child about internet usage. It is hard to ‘accidentally’ come across a beheading video, they arent the type to jump up like all those ads on youtube. You have to go looking for that stuff. But you obviously wont believe me but your son as you have no clue about it.
If you want to protect your kid then learn about parental controls for your kids devices. Dont wait for the Government to do something.
@Andy K: it is possible for kids to come across inappropriate stuff online, I do agree with you though that it’s up to the parents to monitor and teach. I think teaching your child from an early age how to behave online is vital nowadays. It is already possible to restrict access on any device. And what is wrong with telling your child no? Yes, it’s hard to explain especially when it concerns Santa but its possible. We went the route of santa won’t bring anything we don’t agree with and that was that
@Jackie Caruana: My 8 year old is ipad mad, like many im shure! But all she wants is minecraft app and youtube. So i download youtube kids. If your child has the ability or access to google well then you really need to up your game and get monitoring software and also let them know you are monitoring and locking certain sites.
My young lady at 10 went googling young models as she wanted to become a model. She clicked on a preteen model agency and showed me it. I didn’t like the look of it (now it may have seem innocent enough to kids, but the content didn’t sit right with me) so contacted the place to report it too (forgot the name now) and that was so hard to find. It should be easier to report web pages.
Anyhow the site was investigated and I believe it was shutdown.
I actually felt sick as I quickly glanced over it. It was one of the top google results. So many people must have come across it.
@Andy K: parental control software sumply doesn’t work, the refinement is just not there yet.
Even if I did have my 11 year olds daughter device protected chances are her mates won’t have sumilar protection and we all well know they will be showing one another what they’ve discovered.
I’m in favour of this general idea but it needs a little refinement.
@Jackie Caruana: if he’s masturbating to begeadings he needs professional help.
@Jackie Caruana: your son didn’t accidentally come across a beheading. Those videos are immediately supressed from general circulation, he actively looked for it, maybe a school friend told him how. Dont believe me? Go look for one.
This law is more nanny state bullsh!t, it is just one more tentacle of state control in our lives. People should grow up and learn to say no to kids, get off their ar5e and monitor and control their own kids activities,
@james o reilly:
Exactly.
And it is these ‘way worse things’ that they need protection from.
@Jackie Carua I accidentally tuned into a dail session, terrified is not the word
The totalitarian tiptoe. While 24/7 internet access is not a good idea for anyone, this is NOT the business of the state. Next they’ll be coming around your house to check what’s in your fridge. If you don’t believe me go and live in the UK for a while, they have parents terrified over there with every aspect of raising their child, from the maternity hospital to school. We do not what to follow suit.
@Claire Calvey: thanks to debit cards and club cards they already know what’s in your fridge ;)
@TDV: You’re not wrong…but in the UK when my daughter’s school attendance was ‘only’ 89% I was summoned into the school for a meeting to explain myself. It was very intimidating. They want to control every aspect of life there and they’ll do the same here given half a chance.
@Claire Calvey: Yes you are completely correct. I lived in the U.K. and found this to be true. Its a joke really considering how many children that are actually abused and never get the help they need or how much social workers and other departments have made such huge mistakes !!!! They are so busy trying to control everyone the people in real need get lost and failed !!!
A deeply worrying law in my book , in this ever changing world where email is king are they really going to stop children from knowing how to type out a email in favour or a handwritten letter , why not teach both , there are so many things that could be dropped from the long list of subjects that children are forced into like religion for a start and replace it with typing and computer skills ie.how to use anti virus etc.
The proposal is looking towards the right direction it’s just too extreme when you can already set devices to kid mode and it keeps them away from anything they should not be seeing and it’s up to the parents to be smart and not let there kids know the code to the device to change settings
You know what age I first saw pornography? I was around 5/6.
You know where I found it?
In magazines under my parents bed!
You know what age I first watched a porn movie?
I was around 6/7. I had tonsillitis and couldn’t sleep, went downstairs and turned on the TV. Porkys was on and I watched it.
This was back in the early 1980s.
It’s not that I sought it out, I just stumbled across it, if one can access pornography without the internet, that argument doesn’t stand.
@Lily: porkys Priceless!!!!
@Blackwalker617:
The shower scene with the hole on the wall.
There was nothing else on TV!
Boxing was on next though can’t recall who fought.
@Lily: And no doubt you became a serial rapist.
So the children of Ireland can’t embrace technology and get ahead in life. It just goes to show how out of touch our so called government is.The audacity.
And then what if a child is to go missing or wander off with no means of communication? They can’t ask a stranger for a lend, can they?
As usual we have knee-jerk legislation and reactionary politics going on here.
Instead, why not press manufacturers to develop stripped down phones specifically tailored for kids. With limited features, and built-in web filters? Or does that make too much sense?
@Andy Hynes: That already exists. All of it. You can go to ‘Parental Controls’ on your phone and browser, or any device. They have been there since the first smartphone. Its that people dont know about them thats the problem.
@Andy Hynes: Did you ever hear of a Nokia? My 9 year old has one and only uses it if she is going off somewhere without me.
@Jimmy Farrell: good, you’re one of the smart ones.
@Andy K: Or here’s a realistic alternative: limit the functionality on the device in the factory.
When it comes to tech parents are useless compared to their kids. Can’t even learn how their own phones work FFS.
@Andy Hynes: older phones that aren’t smart phones require that the child has credit or a call package. With smart phones the child can log on to free wifi to make calls and texts over Viber if need be !!!
@Andy Hynes: Speak for yourself.Way to go with the generalisation button,there buddy !
The vast majority of devices can be restricted already, blocking certain content. Don’t think there needs to be an extra law. On the contrary I actually think kids should be taught at a young age the dangers of the Internet and how to face them as well as how to act online. But that’s up to the parents to teach.
This is nanny state shit. If you can’t say no to an 8/9 year old then the government is not the problem. I would prefer education and proper child lock tools. Introduce the child to the Internet while educating constantly about security, respect for others and yourself. Banning it just makes it more interesting and if you think kids won’t find a way then you’re kidding yourself.
I’m sorry but I as a parent I will decide how much access My child has to the internet no one else. I know there is access that I can’t control and a law won’t be able to control access through tablets etc.
It’s a start. A good start.
@The Pig: Yup! And North Korea is paradise. They filter the internet so nothing bad ever appears there.
@Andy K: yet the north Koreans are allowed to use cannabis ;)
@The Pig: No it’s not a good start. Under this law special needs children who need iPads and tablets for communication and education would not be allowed access to them. This is a disaster for kids with special needs !!!!!!
‘How can will this be enforced’ lol
@Jackie Caruana: by creating a “moral” police force similar to some of the Islamic countries. Also has the added benefit of providing jobs with fat pensions for the more Neanderthal relatives of our beloved rulers?!!!!
@Jackie Caruana: exactly the way he said it would, like with the serving of alcohol to minors. Can’t be accessed in a shop and is allowed in regulated amounts by the parents at home.
@Jackie Caruana: people on bikes with binoculars peering in through windows .
@Paul Shepherd: Well since Ireland is such an admirer of Saudi Arabia maybe they can check out how this type of law could be enforced.
Phones do not give children unlimited access to pornography . They have the potiential to do this but with safety controls and parental monitoring they don’t !!!!!
Best Helen Lovejoy voice
‘WON’T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN’
@Maurice Bourke: Was just about to post this.
“When people ask me, ‘what age should my child be before I buy them a such a device?’ I reply: ‘whatever age you are happy with them viewing pornography,’” said Daly. What a ridiculous statement.
@John Weldon: He is absolutely right. Handing a child a smartphone is grossly neglectful .Parental controls don’t work ; there is no reason why kids shouldnt stick with old fashioned mobiles ,cheap and effective.
I am not a fan of Three.ie generally but they do block adult websites by default on all devices until you request it to be opened up.
Another storm in a teacup – This week’s diversion
What about children with disabilities and special needs who use iPads tablets and iPhones for communication apps and educational apps ??? Under this law it would be illegal for those children to have access to the tools they need to communicate !!!! This law is a joke !!!! Limiting internet access has to come about through site blocking and domain blocking !! Banning is not going to work and will seriously affect children who reply in those devices !!!
Joke nanny state it should be up to the parents to block this on their kids devices, do these people also realise that kids use the internet to connect and contact with parents or friends , WhatsApp and Viber are free messaging apps which doesn’t cost if you have internet connection
There is no doubt that some utterly irresponsible parents buy their parents the latest and greatest 4G enabled devices and toss it at them like some sort of electronic nanny with unfettered access, allowing them to neglect actually having to take the trouble to parent, interact, devote time to their kid.
Social media and various influences there on including so called “friends” then take the place of the family unit in that child’s bedroom at all hours unsupervised. And it’s rearing a cohort of shallow, materialistic, rude, precocious, vacuous personalities no doubt.
But better ban irresponsible parents than make all suffer for the delinquencies and moral decrepitude of a few.
Fine Gael’s Jim Daly is another politician in a long line of stupid Irish politicians who is under the influence of the exuberance his own verbosity (another fool) and allowed to do so by his fellow politicians.
Jim Lad want to ban 21st century technology from children.
Another brilliant Irish Taliban idea.
Complete Nanny State! Absolutely ridiculous. Parents can easily install and monitor parental controls on such devices and I would say it’s up to the parents to supervise their children not the Government!
Just noticed in the updated article that when trying to justify implementing a nanny state in the place of parents deciding what was best for their kids, he mentioned alcohol. Well he should know that there is no law in this country from a parent allowing their child alcohol (i.e. a glass of wine) in any private place, only from buying it. The further analogy is that if a parent buys a device for their kid (remember, nearly everything is online now – ffs, I can ask a talking cayla doll what bukake is), then it is up to them to give access, monitor them and advise on usage. Exactly the same as alcohol. Between this guy and Lorraine Higgins, I wish they would stay out of how we bring up kids and do things online.
This is stupid. Phones have built in parental controls. And 2 wifi restrictions can be set from the house router via the family pc. 3 manufacturers being fined! I think a 100 euro fine would not dent there performance on the global market!
What about children with special needs who need iPads and tablets to communicate and learn ???? Now it will be illegal for them to have an iPad !!!!! This law in unworkable and will be a disaster for children with disabilities !!!
@Catherine Sims: I rang Finisn McGraths office as he is minister for state for disabilities . A very disappointing response !!! First of all it was pointed out that it wouldn’t affect my son . Well that’s not actually my point . Secondly I was told there was probably wasn’t much he would do and lastly I was told contact Fina Fail and Sinn Fein . So all that really inspired confidence in our minister for state for disabilities !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone explain to this mongo what kid mode is.
I wonder if this could be a big problem for schools that are going down the i-Pad to every student route? In this case, it will be the school/etb/department of education that will be providing the device.
Why this is as watertight and well thought out as … oh I dont know.. say a blasphemy law
Kids are learning to program at younger ages than that. Valuable real world skills. What absolute archaic thinking.
Well done Jim Daly …… !! It’s a start and highlights the appalling dangers of unlimited access to the Internet . Children viewing violent cruel uncensored videos of beheadings etc should be protected in any way possible .
This is the most sensible piece of legislation I’ve seen in a while. Difficult to enforce but gets parents thinking about safety for their children. The comment “what age do you want them looking at pornography” is correct and right.
Nanny state
Which order came up with one?
Stable Doors and bolting horses?
But SOMETHING needs to be done.
More wasting of taxpayers money. There are laws for micro- chipping dogs and a ban list with special rules for 10 specific breeds yet how often are they enforced? Bringing in laws without the manpower to back it up and if they do heaping more pressure on our court system.
Can you imagine, kids in Africa, India, Americas, Australia Etc. are technology savvy from an early age and Irish kids don’t know how to turn on a Tablet at 14 years old.
Dumb, Dumb-, Dumb
There is an adult filter on pay as u go sims from 3, you have to prove you are over age by giving personal details like passport/license etc to remove it. It is very effective believe me,
@James O’Brien: software me arse, there’s always a work around out there
@TDV: If the kids are smart enough to find out how to bypass security and restriction measures on their device, they are old enough to see anything on the internet. Hacking is not as easy as the 80s movies make it out to be.
Maybe try it for yourself?
I saw porn young and it didn’t have one bit of affect on me. While I’m not saying it doesn’t have an affect what affect is it?
Porn isn’t realistic maybe? That’s not an age thing thats a reality for everyone.
Genuinely seeking scientific effects/issues of seeing porn. There could easily be some I haven’t factored in
Im not trying to do anything here but are we trying to go backwards with technology here, i understand that some measures should be taken i think this should be done in the shops when the phone is bought so underage can only view their age rating like i films my parents did it with me. I just think that all this id crap and no buying phones is going to create alot more issues like what if a kid gets lost. 10yrs ago thats why younger kids had em u mean im not saying restrict them to that im just saying maybe the shops should setup it like that
Why not tax them…it would make everything OK again
all the internet providers should be made to block pornography websites
The simplest way is to get the internet carriers who are licensed by the state to control the access. If you want access then pay for it and register. society here is sliding into a trench of depravity beyond any acceptability , the ability for children to whimsically access hard porn or violence is a shameful expression of our stupidity
Ah the old “wont someone think of the children” in order to bring in laws that control the people
Not all places have a signal or signal strenght to even get a call?
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