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EU LEADERS MEET today to finalise the details of the fiscal compact treaty which aims to enshrine rules preventing another financial crisis like the current one that has gripped the eurozone for the past four years.
It is a financial crisis that has seen three eurozone countries seek an international bailout with Ireland widely regarded as having performed best in meeting its obligations, meeting the terms of its programme and availing of the bailout facility.
It is hoped and indeed expected that when the current funding programme ends we will be able to return to normal lending markets in the middle of 2013. Last week a refinancing of government debt was heralded as an indication that there is an appetite for Irish government bonds.
Finance Minister Michael Noonan describes suggestions of the need for a second bailout as ludicrous while Social Protection Minister Joan Burton had to go on national radio to clarify that she did not believe we would need a second funding programme.
Unsurprisingly not everyone is convinced by the government’s view and TheJournal.ie has spoken to a number of economists in recent days, most of whom believe the situation is far from clear.
In fact only one of ten we spoke to indicated that it was certain Ireland would return to normal lending markets when it is scheduled to do so. Five said it was likely we would need a second bailout of some sort next year while the remaining four were unsure, mostly saying it was impossible to tell at this point and that much depended on external factors in the eurozone.
Here’s what a wide-range of economists and commentators we spoke to had to say:
Colm McCarthy, the author of the report on public sector reform and the sale of State assets, believes that the prospect of a second bailout cannot be ruled out but says:
You just can’t predict the future, it depends on whatever happens in the wider economy.
The UCD economics lecturer says much will depend on the appetite for Irish government paper when it comes to considering re-entering normal lending markets in the middle of 2013.
More certain of what will happen is Fergal O’Brien, an economist at business and employer advocate IBEC, who says it is unlikely Ireland will need a second bailout.
“A lot is going to depend on the external environment. It’s going to heavily influenced by the eurozone but there’s a number of positive signs,” he says. “The yield on Irish bonds is coming down and if that continues we should be in sustainable territory by the middle of next year.”
He says there was encouraging signs from the Troika in terms of the shift in its position on the sale of State assets and being able to use the money to create jobs. O’Brien believes that if we can “deliver the austerity as per the agreement” it would “help us a lot if we can get some concessions”.
Rowenna Pecchenino, the head of the economics department at NUI Maynooth, says a lot will depend on what happens over the next year. “I’m one of the economists who doesn’t like to make predictions as any forecast is certain to be wrong,” she says. But she does believe the talk of the need for a second bailout is unhelpful.
Such talk heightens the feeling of fear and dread to say we need another one. I don’t think it’s very helpful.
At KBC Bank, the economist Austin Hughes believes that at this point it looks less likely that Ireland will be able to fund itself in the markets next year. ”There has to be a significant change in risk appetite for sovereign debt in the eurozone. Markets have the fear that current uncertainties have not been put to bed,” he says.
Saying yes or no at this point is very premature. It’s like assessing what the end of a league season is going to be. There’s still an awful lot to be decided.
Jim Power, economist at Friends First, is pessimistic about matters. He believes that a credible solution to the eurozone crisis is needed: “My perspective on it is fairly clear. If a credible eurozone solution is achieved which restores stability, Ireland will be able to re-access international markets next year,” he says.
But he believes that currently there is no sign of “any willingness or capability to come up with a credible solution” from eurozone leaders. Despite that he does not think the government should be talking about a second bailout.
I don’t think Irish politicians should stand up and say we will need one. We should keep the head down, restore order and pay lip service so as that we can hopefully re-enter bond markets in 2013.
Trinity economist and columnist Constantin Gurdgiev is pretty certain Ireland will need a second bailout. He says while the Irish government may be able to borrow in small amounts from the normal lending markets, the cost would be exceptionally high when compared to facilities already on offer like the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF):
The idea of the government being able to finance itself fully in private markets even by 2013 is bonkers at this stage.
He says that the cost of borrowing would have to be below five per cent but that the current threat of a Greek default is placing the category of sovereign debt, particularly for bailed-out countries, in the category of being a risky asset.
Gurdgiev adds: ”The claim that we are fulfilling the programme is fine but there is no pressure on the trade unions and vested interests in the economy. We need a concerted effort to develop a strategy on this that will get us out of this situation.”
SIPTU economist Marie Sherlock says the possibility of a second bailout is “a long way off” but notes that at this stage even the notion of it is being put in “very catastrophic and radical terms in that it would be the end of the world”.
She believes the gap between the interest rate Ireland will get in the open market and in the EFSF means that at the moment it’s unlikely the country will be able to head back to the markets in the middle of next year. But she adds:
There’s a lot of overexcited talk and people are getting ahead of themselves. I think we will need one [a second bailout] but we don’t need to be over consumed by it now.
Ronan Lyons, economist at Daft.ie and Oxford University, believes the lack of appetite to close Ireland’s deficit fast enough means that the markets are unlikely to look kindly at Ireland. While at the same time, he notes that the EU would like to see one of the bailed-out countries on the right track: “Ireland is the obvious candidate for that”.
I think while it’ll have a different name and possibly a different technical set-up, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if Ireland borrows from other governments, rather than other banks.
Lyons also notes that the portrayal of Ireland’s current programme is somewhat skewed. This is not so much a bailout as “a different bunch of lenders,” he says. “As soon as you decide to pay for some of your current spending with borrowing, you have to run your plans past the lender one way or the other”. While it used to be the markets Ireland had to convince, now it is just a different set of lenders.
“If you don’t want to be answerable in your public spending to anyone other than your citizens then balance your books and you won’t have to borrow,” he adds.
Paul Sweeney, the chief economist at the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, believes the whole question of whether or not Ireland needs a second bailout is “a red herring” when “we’re not even halfway through current programme”:
I actually think it’s a stupid question and it’s a hypothetical question. There’s much more serious things to worry about and we don’t know the future.
Sweeney also speculates as to whether new administrations in France and Germany (holding elections in 2012 and 2013 respectively) might be able to “get their act together” to come up with a credible solution to the eurozone crisis that would inevitably help Ireland’s case.
Finally, well-known economist and commentator David McWilliams – whose prescience on Ireland’s property bubble in 2003 is as scary as it is incredible – has long been a dissenter when it comes to the government’s economic policy. And when it comes to the coalition’s views on a second bailout he is no different. He’s certain that there’ll be a need for one and he even thinks there could be a third.
Earlier this month he told TheJournal.ie: “Ireland’s situation will only degenerate further as less money comes in and, against that background, there is zero chance of a return to the markets.”
But there could be light at the end of a seemingly dark tunnel of doom and gloom, there’s a top negotiator at our disposal. McWilliams joked: “Why not send in Michael O’Leary – someone who negotiates for a living. Tell him it’s his patriotic duty.”
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Half of the above are charlatans. Only Grudgiev, Lyons, McWilliams & Maynooth Prof are credible.
Tis all guessonomics!
We didn’t need the first one.
Shove it!!!
Mcwilliams? Seriously? If he was so certain of our collapse maybe he would have spent more time discussing that than his new catchphrase. Seriously go back and check what he spent his days talking about before the crash. F*cking ‘deckchair families ‘ sweatpants mummies’ and waynes world generations. He, compared to the torrent of paper space he commanded, barely talked about a potential crash.
The real question is, if he actually considers himself a reputable economist why did he not spend most of his time talking about the collapse of millions of Irish livelihoods? He was the only popular economist in the country! He either was guessing or didn’t care. Literally the only two possibilities.
Lyons hits it on the head:
“If you don’t want to be answerable in your public spending to anyone other than your citizens then balance your books and you won’t have to borrow.”
Everybody likes the sound of having the books balanced. But it would require “austerity” on a grand scale so no thanks. We´ll just keep borrowing and borrowing in the hopes that the guy we´re borrowing from will forget about the money.
Colm mccarthys comments are brainless… Noone can predict the future.
Rich coming from a man who has trousered a fortune from the taxpayer doing just that!
Mr Noone can predict the future!
What are you talking about? He did that job for a fiver… if the government went to an accountancy or a consultancy firm they would have been charged millions, Colm did it for a few thousand.
And that is a fair amount considering his expertise. If anything was brainless it was your comment.
Everyday it just seems to go from bad to worse. There just seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel, we are borrowing from Peter to pay Paul & its getting us nowhere. The country is on its knees.
I agree with Michael o leary. Hoping for a second bailout so that the imf will force the government to cut themselves because they are not gonna do it of their own accord.
Whether or not Ireland will need another bailout will depend on the state of the bond markets. We are doing all the right things to get our public finances in order and we are not going to default on existing bonds so re-entry into the bond maret will depend on others.
Personally I think we will remain in bailout until the Euro and the other debtor countries have sorted themselves out.
I’m not so sure about that Peter.
The recent McKinsey report (detailed in many of the papers yesterday) makes for eye-watering reading from an Irish perspective. Our total debt (public, private, household, etc) is at more than 6.5 times national income. More than twice the nearest delinquent Spain.
Total Irish debt is inflated by the Financial Institutions balances at 294% of GDP. This is influenced by the number of foreign institutions operating in the IFSC. Soveriegn debt at 85% of GDP is a concern as is household debt at 124%. Non financial corporate debt at 194% would be a worry but again I think this is artificially high reflecting stategic leveraging by the high number of FDI corporates in Ireland, particularly from the US.
It is difficult to choose another economy to measure ourselves against because of our ability to attract foreign direct investment across a number of business sectors. I would suggest that the nearest model to our own is the UK.
Peter it is not just the financial sector. The households and the corporate sector are up to the eyeballs too and much above the average of developed countries and above even the usual debtors UK and US.
The government says it is not going to happen……… So it is a given .
“SIPTU economist”. Ha.
Perhaps media outlets such as yourselves should begin posting something positive and instill some confidence, rather than continuously churning out crap like this! Every economist on your list has said the same thing!
Everyone except Gurdgiev and McWilliams are deluded. ‘Talk of the bailout is unhelpful’ – what is this? Is this an opinion of a university head of economics department??
Enough of the gloom get on with it, listening to these economists for too long now. People need to buckle down & make things happen for themselves & please stop thinking the government are going to do something for you do it yourself.
And the comment of Paul Sweeney of ICTU that the question is hypothetical is utter rubbish. If Ireland was about to be leveled by a giant meteorite the question would have been hypothetical but because it isn’t the question is fairly relevant and real. That is except maybe for ICTU beards who according to Sweeney’s own admission have ‘other things to worry about’ (i.e. how to keep the Croke Park zombie alive and pull a quick one in front of the general public pretending some progress is being made).
Government policies are killing growth. When the retail figures are out on this quarter, the reality will be laid bare. Job losses will roll on this year unfortunately. Tax revenue is shrinking and that has been the case for several years even after all the levies, band adjustments, etc. To keep the Croke Farce Agreement going, increasing amounts of shrinking tax revenue are needed. Eventually, the Farce must be closed down if the deficit is to be brought under control. The present trajectory leads inevitably to a second bailout. Few public sector economists will admit that openly, as it opens up uncomfortable questions about wage levels among the academic and teaching elites when businesses are struggling to keep their premises heated.
I’ve spoken to many in the retail sector over the past few days and the last few weeks have definetly been the worst that any of them have experienced in 30+ years of trading.
My comment is this: I would like to quote Walter Ulbricht, the East German head of State, commenting at a 1961 press conference when asked about his stance as to an East west border: “Nobody here intends to build a wall.” Watch it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjgKKOdVRx4
“It is ludicrous to say that Ireland will need a second bailout.” Will you believe it still after watching that?
A No vote will sort it all out one way or the other. Then there won’t be a cent left to pay the most senior guaranteed bondholder and Croke Park will be hit by an ICBM.
In the end you have to take the bottle away from the alcoholic!
It largely depends on factors outside of our control. We are doing everything that is being asked of us and meeting our targets but political inaction in the EU is putting all of that at risk.
If we do have to go the the EFSF for a further round of funding it would not be a total disaster. We would be getting money at less than normal market rates and would only require assisted funding for a year or two.
We are missing growth forecasts, tax intake is below the forecasts (masked to an extent with ‘once-off’ measures like the pension raid), the deficit is still a double XXL whopper with cheese, the only sector with some growth potential (export industry) is about to be fucked with another global crisis and the unemployment is stuck near 15%. What particular targets are being met??? I am afraid you are buying the government’s spin. Their statements on the subject are the work of pure fiction. Anybody who thinks Greece is an exception is deluded. Portugal is next and then Ireland. There is no such thing as ‘one cockroach’.
Looking at the response from McWilliams I realised that his comments to the Journal were made earlier this month and on this basis I wonder when the other interviews took place. Forecasting in economic terms requires a set of facts and a common set of assumptions. Could the author of this place validate the timing of the economists contributions to avoid the piece being meaningless.
Mark,
Apologies for the delay in responding to your query. Bar McWilliams, the interviews for this piece all took place within the last 7 days.
Hugh
Comments from such a group could never be conclusive, economics is one part, politics is another macroeconomics is another and microeconomics is finally where it hurts in the pocket . I wouldn’t bet on anything they say.none of them ever saw the downturn coming including Mc Williams who saw everything down turning, as always he had to be right sometime why didn’t he profit from it.
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