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TRANSPORT MINISTER LEO Varadkar has said that he does not believe that referendums are “very democratic”.
Speaking to RTÉ Radio on Sunday about a proposed new treaty being discussed at a European Council meeting today, Varadkar said that referendums are “by and large” never what they are supposed to be about.
Responding to a poll in yesterday’s Sunday Business Post which showed that 72 per cent of Irish people believe a vote is necessary if the treaty is to be adopted in Ireland, the Minister said that he is “not a referendum fan”.
I would be concerned that it would turn into a referendum on extraneous issues such as septic tanks, bondholders, banking crisis or decisions being made by the Government, such as cutbacks.”
European leaders are in Brussels today to finalise the wording of the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union. It is the fifth draft of the treaty to be put to the leaders.
Once the text is finalised, the treaty will be forwarded to the Attorney General, who will advise the Government on whether a referendum is required.
Varadkar added, “We’ve held referendums on lots of issues in the past but to amend the constitution is the only reason they were held.”
Echoing Varadkar’s sentiments, Justice Minister Alan Shatter said he would not preempt discussions but noted that the State has never held a referendum unless it is required.
Yesterday, Sinn Féin said it would consider a legal challenge if a referendum is not held on the matter.
As Enda Kenny travels to Brussels for the meeting, Minister of State for Europe Affairs Lucinda Creighton told Morning Ireland that there should be more of a focus on the content of the new treaty, rather than the process around it.
She said it was “absolutely in our interest” to be part of a European solution to the eurozone debt crisis.
“It would be a very sad day for us if we decided to opt out of that and to let the 16 other members of eurozone to progress,” she said.
It would make it almost impossible for us” to continue in the euro if we voted against treaty.”
However, she added that the Government hoped that the intergovernmental treaty would only form a small part of today’s discussion as the focus moves from austerity to economic growth and job creation.
Varadkar says that the new treaty addresses weaknesses in the Maastricht Treaty which allowed for rules to be broken by certain eurozone countries.
“We all accept the euro isn’t working and this treaty is designed to make it work better and prevent a future crisis,” he told presenter Marian Finucane.
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Is there no end to the jems that this man produces …?
I heard that particular gaffe last night and just thought made a mockery of our entire tripartite system. The man must have known what he was saying !
Actually, he’s completely correct. Given that we only ever get meaningful votes at General Elections and Referenda, that’s one vote every 3-4 years on average. So of course people use it to vote on whatever’s happened in the past 3-4 years.
Mind you, if we actually had a better system of democracy in this country, instead of one vote at the General Election and everything for the next few years forced through the Dail using the party whip system on the basis of that vote and ignoring any pre-election positions that become inconvenient, well, maybe this wouldn’t happen…
Is this an echo of Cowen’s Lisbon 2 Campaign??
Leo DarkVadar tries mind control.
sorry leo. Referendums are one of the simplest forms of direct democracy we have. The only thing that would be more democratic would be if the entire population of Ireland gathered at the Hill of Tara once a week to debate septic tanks
LoL on a Monday morn! Nice one!
That may be Conor – but they are too easily made a mockery of.
Unfortunately the Public generally cannot be expected to undersstand all of the minutia involved in traties of this size and scope. They dont have the expertise in economics, law etc to make an informed and educated decision.
In short youre asking people to make an important decision based on somethin they know nothing about. The Lisbon referenda and all the posturing about Irish neutrality, abortions and the corporate tax rate are a case in point. Similarly the recent referendum on Judges pay is another example – the public voted overwhelmingly to decrease Judges pay – but that wasnt the question they were asked. The government dressed it up as that in the media – but that wasnt the actual question.
Then theres a risk that referenda become a vote on the performance of the government generally rather than the issue at hand.
I’m not advocating abandoning referenda – but I do have serious concerns about how they are used and why.
Felix
Here is a good idea . Why don’t we have a referendum for all the ‘educated ‘people who
know what the government want voted in. Then eventually we wont need general elections or bye elections either . Fantastic. We the ” Public generally (who) cannot be expected to undersstand all of the minutia involved in traties of this size and scope ” After all we ”dont have the expertise in economics, law etc to make an informed and educated decision.”
Thanks Felix for pointing out our flaws and ignorance and our inabilities to make informed decisions.
You continue to make me smile :)
Of course there should be general elections Eileen – your willingness to ignore the point never fails to astound.
Do you really think that the average man in the street is qualified to understand and accurately predict the outcome of a treaty of this complexity? Economics experts all over Europe cannot agree so how is average Jow supposed to know? But it will be average Joe who you want to decide our fate.
Or will it just turn into a poll on how people view the performance of this goverment?
Oh I forgot to ask – how is your campaign to get free water coming along – still determined to get for free a service which costs the stae millions?
Felix
Really I don’t know how you do it ? You never fail to make me laugh . I am sure the average man in the street will of course understand what will be asked of them and as for the average woman ,who you neglected to mention will most surely know how to vote in a referendum.
As for your Query on the National Campaign against the household tax and water charges , well that is another conversation …… You keep doing this Felix (it is Felix? ) All your various pseudnoms gets tedious…. Stick to the subject on the thread !!!
Thats interesting Eileen. Because they average man did not understand the last referendum. Nor did he understand Lisbon. & He certainly didnt understand Lisbon 2. So why would you expect them to understand this referendum?
The economic and legal issues arising as a result of the global economic crisis are mind bogglingly complex. There is a very real risk that the average person will use any referendum to attack the government, rather than educate themselves on what they are actually being asked.
The polls at the moment show that the majority will vote no. Despite the fact that the vast majority wont have read what the treaty amandements entail nor will have read the proposed change to the constitution. How can you know how you will vote until we know what we are voting on? Surely the polls should be saying a vast majority of “Dont know yet” – but no. They all show a majority of “No” – a vote from ignorance.
it is ironic Eileen that you complain about me going off topic and then raise the issue of my handle. Not to mention raising the issue of gender. Hypocritical to say the least.
But I will answer the query: this is the only name Ive ever used Eileen as you’re well aware. As I pointed our previously the only reason I started commenting was because of you and your views relating to the legal profession.
Felix I have not gone off subject
Leo is a mouthpiece for the government and he is scare mongering .
You have gone off topic – you mentioned my “handle” and you raised the issue of gender. Hardly on topic now is it?
As for Leo being a mouthpiece for the government….um….hes a member of that government is he not?
As for scaremongering – how is it scaremongering to say that the public will vote no just to hit the governement? Its perfectly true and the main reason that they dont want one. Where’s the scaremongering in that?
You will quite obviously vote NO Eileen. Have you read the treaty yet? Or the proposed constitutional amendments? Or you fully aware of the ramifications for Ireland of a no vote? Are there any benefits whatsoever to a Yes vote? What are the main drawbacks for Ireland of this treaty, how will they effect the man on the street and is there any way which we can negotiate for those particular aspects to be alterted to make the treaty more palatable to the irish people?
The answer to all of those questions is that you do not know Eileen. Yet for some reason youre gung ho for a no vote. Now why would that be?
Felix
You are silly . Of course I have not read the treaty nor have you and neither has our AG for that matter . I never mentioned ‘handle ‘, but I do get confused with the various names you use .
I am not gung ho .I do not know what way I will vote if we have a referendum as I said I have not seen the wording …..but I do believe a referendum is necessary . Now ”Felix” I really must go . As always its fun exchanging views with you .:)
Thats just the point Eileen. I dont claim to have read the legislation etc. – which is why I have yet to come to an decision on which way I would vote. I am not YET informed enough to come to a proper conclusion.
Varadkar – whom I loath – believes that the referendum would be decided not on the issue at stake but a whole load of extraneous issues. And hes right – it will. On this particular issue he happens to be right.
As for my name – or “handle” as it is known in internet parlance – you know very well I only use one you silly woman.
Ducked it again eh Eileen. Hypocrisy is a funny old thing isnt it?
I told you from the first Eileen – I read your views on the legal profession and frankly ended up shaking my head in disbelief so often that I felt compelled to redress the balance.
I am not a hypocrite, but you just twist and turn words to suit yourself . Veradkar and the government are the hypocrites. I am bored .
You criticise me for changing the subject (I mentioned the water charges)
You then criticise my name and also raise the issue of gender – changing the subject.
Is that not a textbook example of hypocrisy? Do what I say, not what I do? Ha! You should be in goverment Eileen, you’d fit right in! And we’d have no water charges, or property taxes and no one would be to blame for anything! What a grand world it would be if you were at the helm. I cant believe no one thought of it sooner!
As to my “twisting & turning words” – Im dont recall ever having done that. I just tell the truth. Most people – particularly yourself – dont like it. Unpalatable truths they may be, but none the less true for that.
The truth is what Mr. Veradkar has pointed out. Any referendum on Europe will in reality be a referendum on the governments performance. Which is why it probably shouldnt go to the People who are simply not qualified to make such a decision.
Fascism Is Alive & Well…!
Afraid so !
Is it just me or is Leo slowly becoming this governments Willie O’Dea?
Not sure at least willie did not believe his own bullshit but Leo should write himself a prescription for some laxatives.
nothing slow about it
Referendum is to democracy as Varadkar is to loopy.
scare tactics again …he has no idea what will happen if we say no to a referendum..
Thats probaby true. But the People have no idea what will happen if they say no. Nor do they have any clear idea what will happen if they say yes. So why would we give them the power to decide the issue at all?
yet people use scare tactics in here every day and get patted on the back.
So letting people vote on an issue that concerns them is “UNDEMOCRATIC” Who voted for this donkey? I think somebody should take out the needle and thread and sew his lips together!!!
Min Ross O’Carroll Kelly strikes again, disrespectful to the electorate that put him where he is.
I’m starting to love Leo Varadkar! He’s like our man on the inside. He tells us exactly what the government really think about us. Keep them coming Leo, you little pumpkin pie. ;-)
He could be a secret double agent for the workers party or just a self publicist
who loves the sound of his own voice and this is a guy who wanted to shaft Enda not 2 years ago are F G (cintunity F F ) developing a right wing Tory element
In a way, aren’t we glad Enda stood firm. Can u imagine Leo in charge ? FFS !!
Developing??? John you’re gas today. How much more do we have to hear before we all realise that FG is the Irish branch of the Tory party. ;)
lol, excellent point!
In fairness (not that I am defending him), he is basically saying that he believes it not to be good as many will simply use it as a means to enact revenge on the EU for the current state of our country.
When voting yes or no the focus needs to be on what it is we are being asked to pass in isolation.
I would agree with him on that aspect, but he also has to face up to the fact that this is how a democracy works.
They are certainly desperate to pass this thing without the people as they no too well what the result will be…
given how they’ve handled things so far, do you honestly think they give a crap about us? trying to imply there is no link between the bailout, Irelands current situation and a more united Europe is deceptive. Look what they were able to achieve with the power they have now, the full scale of it hasn’t even been realised here yet – look at our own newly elected government, the prognosis is not good.
How many unjust payments have been made to banks, how many promises broken?
You need to earn the trust/backing of the people, all you have at the moment is spite and suspicion.
The government looks worried, and they should be.
” you ” being the government there :-D
Your points are valid, but that goes way beyond what I was saying. The fact that many people are already saying that they will vote “no” to this simply proves what he is saying to be correct. Let’s see what the thing says first before we make up our minds.
I hope that the Irish people get to vote on this – regardless which way they vote, it should be based on what is being proposed – not on bailouts, our government etc.
I am a bit sceptical about this whole thing. In one way I agree to fiscal accountability (some countries are just taking the piss), but on the other hand, it won’t be the politicians who get penalised for mistakes, it will be the tax payers. Our government doesn’t really inspire a lot of confidence…
Oh yeah…. Like the Lisbon treaty, we’ll keep asking until you give the right answer
That’s a good point. The Lisbon and Nice treaties were completely undemocratic. Leo may have a point…
European Affairs Minister Lucinda Creighton told RTE this morning:
“If we somehow decided to opt out of that and allowed the other 16 member of the Eurozone to progress and try to find a solution without us, I think it would make it almost impossible for us to continue as part of the currency union.”
She said Ireland would decide on whether to hold a referendum on the treaty within weeks after EU leaders agree on the fiscal compact to tighten budget rules later today.
Let the scare tactics Begin :)
And lucinda’s particularly good at the scare tactics. Never forget when she thought the usual “ATMs not working” threat she resorted to “people will die on the streets like in Greece”. She’s one scary lady alright.
Scary & painful. Painful to listen to when she speaks. This put on “I’m serious now people” look on her face. They should have got her to star in “The Iron Lady” instead of M Streep !!
@Reada
Yeah funny memories alright.
I think Brian lenihan’s ATM treat about not bailing out Anglo was a all time favorite of mine.
“We couldn’t have a situation of no money our ATM’s”
The bank had 2 or 3 ATM’s machines in Ireland lol :)
Europe done the same thing to Greece a while back remember?
The then PM of Greece wanted a Referendum on some infringement of the Greek constitution and Europe got
George Papandreou’s removed and (ex) goldman sachs banker Lucas Papademos in as PM.
The FG/LAB government will try their best for us not to have a referendum,The reasons why I think is that a media frenzy will begin and markets will start looking at Ireland in a worried way.Look what happened to Greece when a proposed referendum happened,The markets were hitting rock bottom,Merkozy treating for a IN/OUT EU referendum.
Every time Lucinda and Leo turn up on the news I feel like I’m watching the film ‘Dumb and Dumber’.
leo ‘the lips’
ur dead right reada, i think its great to know what
these spanners really think
Yes Declan. She blows reincarnation notions right out of the water. Thatchers not even dead yet. :-(
Eugene. We have to remember to laugh at them. But eu’s treatment of Greece is absolutely disgusting. The pleasure some Irish took from their situation reminds me of the kids in school who love to see someone else in trouble as it makes them feel a bit better. Some kids just don’t grow up!
Greece not the only country to mess with their books. Papa was behind a lot of that and he’s the guy they have in charge now!!!
@Reada
Yeah its strange about the appointment of Lucas Papademos a fellow Goldman employee that bridged the whole cooking the books thing with Greece?
I know I am “a bit” of subject but Norman Lamont a Rothschild employee done some weird stuff when acting as Chancellor of the Exchequer for The UK in 80′s and 90′s he got the sack from the British government after a while.
I won’t be surprised if there’s no referendum.
We’ll have to have our own referendum then. Don’t register for household charge. I think there’ll have to be a referendum though. I’m just worried that the scare tactics will frighten the sheep to voting yes. We’ll have to wait and see. Some stirring but not enough. :(
http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=10988
Have alook at this ……. It says it all
Anglo Irish Bank owned by Rothschild being “bailed out” by the IMF – owned by Rothschild
They own the whole fecking world Eileen. Our only chance is to leave the Euro and we’ll all Duck and hope they don’t notice us. Lol. ;)
Réada your theory is making more sense every day …. The fog is lifting and people are well aware where all of this i heading so we must say Enough !
JC Eileen. It’s not mine. Holy cow. Are you trying to have me locked up? ;)
Thats me taking a short cut Réada . I know it is not your personal opinion ….
but one that was alluded to . :)
Its the weather …. and all this upset has me gone ”silly” :)
and the scaremongering goes on… and not a politician in sight.
You mean we were meant to cut judges pay on the last one, damn, i thought we voting on having the Luas extended to Limerick! But sure I’m a contemptible citizen who doesn’t know what I’m voting on. BTW Leo, if people do vote on issues other than the one we are supposed to , it ‘cause it the only chance we get to tell you what a rotten job you’re doing
Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop people talking” Clement Atlee
So dear Leo, where do you stand on General elections? Are they undemocratic ? Dictatorship here we come
What a clown ! I wouldn’t be surprised if Enda K sends him out to say these daft things to paint him in a bad light with the public & also eliminating him as a political leadership threat at the same time.
And now that young Leo has an income for life who needs elections.
Look people, you all know you won’t be given a choice.. Did Hitler give the Poles a choice when he annexed them. A takeover doesn’t work that way… The more important question is when we come to realise we have been annexed too, what or how far are you willing to go to regain your sovereignty and freedom…
say hello to my little friend…….
Referendum are not always democratic I quote Leo varadkar ” so what the alternative “dictatorship”. You guys promised the people before been elected that you will be fort coming with the truth on every issue that will affect people of ireland. So now that it is time for the people to have a say. Democracy is not quite representative.
You want to cup on Mr varadkar .
when will leo stop actin the clown
Unfortunately I don’t think he’s acting.
Yeah. You’re nearly right Leo. I don’t think people would vote against it due to all the broken promises you have made to the electorate, or for the disrespect you have shown to us, but I think they would vote against it as we do not want any more austerity, does that make us ignorant, I don’t think so, the head of the IMF seems to agree with us. Give us our say Leo. No point hiding, we’ll get to you eventually.
Totally agree Keith, but he is right to say they’re not very democratic. We said no to Lisbon which they disregarded and made us vote again until they got the answer they wanted. It’d be the very same with this one.
People will vote against the referendum as a way to punish FG labour. Leo knows all about that, the punishment vote got them in power
Lol. That last sentence craiced me up, thanks Keith.
I will vote no if there was a referendum coz any crap suggestion that comes from Germany and France is purely to protect them and screw everyone else. No one asked me if I wanted to guarantee every Irish bank or to bail out Anglo Irish which were certainly not in Ireland’s best interests. So unless I see that Anglo debt gone Germany and France will be getting no happy treaty from me. This treaty has no benefit at all. This debt ratio crap was put into the Maastricht treaty and both Germany and France ignored it and voted it down and got away with it. Leo can feck off as well. He is really turning out to be really pathetic.
Any further ceding of sovereignty must be subject to a referendum.
http://www.directdemocracyireland.org/news/ireland/top-stories/160-article-61-of-the-republic-of-ireland-constitution.html
Leo, by making these statements about referenda, what you are actually saying is that we the Irish people are stupid and you do not trust us to vote on the subject matter…you imply that we do or did not vote on the subject matter contained in them.
.
Are you suddenly the font of all knowledge?
You say that ours is a ‘Parlimentary Democracy’, which is true to a certain extent, but when 73% of people in a democratic Country like Ireland want a Referendum, why denie them this right?
What are you all in Government afraid of if there is a Referendum?
Could the reason be simply that you are afraid that because your Government hasn’t got the balls to stand up to Merkel and Sarkozy, that you are afraid that we the electorate will and that Enda would lose his ‘Gold Star’?
Maybe it’s time you took one of the ‘holidays’ that you said that we could all afford and stop digging more holes for yourself.
Have a nice day!
Well said. I’d vote for you!
Well Said .
@ Derek
You see this the problem Derek that Leo was talking about. You believe all that guff about “gold stars” for Enda.
You havent a bloody clue what the referendum proposes to change in the consitution, what the treat reform will be or what the ramifications for both Europe and Ireland will be – yet here you are suggesting that Irish people will “stand up to Merkel & Sarkozy”. In other words vote NO.
Which is precisely the point Veradkar is making (loathsome little man that he is)
The referendum will be a debate on fighting Europe and the poor performance of the government etc etc It wont be a debate on the actual issue. The public wont even understand the issue. They didnt with the Judges – why would they now? This is far more complex.
Veradkar has a point. I wouldnt trust the majority of people on these boards to look after a dog, much less decide the future of the nation.
Yes to jobs!!!!!!
I agree with him to a certain extent on this. If the issue goes to a referendum, the government will seek a yes vote. Whether or not this is achieved will depend less on the content of the referendum, and more on other issues. This is distorting the democratic procedure, as the vote on the referendum should be based only on the issue it relates to.
By the same logic, elections are also defunct, we all now know that was won was won on false promises and shameless populism but he no one minds that (which way did we go in the end? Mmm oh Frankfurt’s, Gilmore was hiding out somewhere.) Actually, nobody voted for the current program for government as it was hammered out after the election where promises were merged, cut & changed so that a coalition could take hold. So, my point is we never really get what we expect , that’s our electoral system, a mish –mash which means a majority is next to impossible and so we left with parties from left and right and a government that will try to straddle all sides of the spectrum with disastrous consequence’s . (You are right that referenda and Euro, CC election are as much a barometer of public opinion but that doesn’t change the fact that we as citizens have democratic right under our constitution do have say on certain matters. This one matters, the ECB has it malevolent boot on our throats long enough. and the funny thing is if we had a genuinely left f centre or right of centre part in power is wouldn’t be accepted .Pit Labour didn’t have enough ball to actually join the lefties and give the electorate a real choice ! P.S im on the other side but at least we could have a real choice!
excellent point tensing!
wiki explanation of democracy ”Democracy in its purest or most ideal form would be a society in which all adult citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.” Is this not a decision that effects each and every living breathing human being living in this country?
But we’re not a true democracy Angela – we’re a Republic.
We do not make the decisions – we elect the people who make the decisions.
Ultimately what we need to do is either do a better job choosing our representatives, or have more people run for election so that there is a wider choice.
Will someone ever shut this man up?? What a numpty!!!
Listening to various ministers over the last several days,i get the impression they are fairly confident there will be no need for a referendum.I hope their’re wrong this treaty is to important to allow this bunch of P****s sign it into law without the consent of the people.
The problem is that the people do not understand it.
Norman H
You are so right !
I am aware of that.
Now if only you were Eileen.
Excuse me here Norman
”felix”
I know I am right . This government are worse than FF. They are playing with us , our fears and our trust.
They are very dangerous , I just hope they will not push us all too far .I do not think they realise the strength of our feelings . Good night ”felix” .
Thanks Norman.:)
This government have yet to prove they are anywhere close to being as bad as FF – it was FF who began and made the mess to begin with.
“Playing with us” “Our fears and our trust”?? What? What kind of meaningless gibberish is that? The usual paranoid hysteria from the fringe lunatics. Deary Deary me.
As for pushing us too far – thats just hilarious Eileen. Nothing will happen. The People wont march. There will be no one banging on the doors of the Oireachtais…thats just foolishness. There have been no riots yet and there wont be. Thats not our way.So all of this guff about “they do not realise the strength of our feelings” “I hope they do not push us too far” – thats just meaningless garbage Eileen. Youre not going to do anything about it that will have the slightest effect.
As for you being right – well as I just pointed out, your empty rhetoric is not only wrong, it is pointless.
Felix
you are just the limit ! Everyone who disagrees with your opinions, you call them a ”lunatic” well maybe you should just hold that mirror up to yourself and see what you are . To be honest I have had enough of your put downs and arrogant comments about me. I do not have to justify my feelings or my opinions to you. It is a pity that you have to garner attention in such a negative way.
eileann, i’m afraid My Lord Causidy is totally correct.
If the peasants are allowed to vote on something they couldn’t possibly
understand, what would become of things.
anyway, im off to roll around in more pig shit
and put some more straw on the roof,
and dig up a potato to feed me 20 kids.
Joseph Mc gee
I suppose when you put it like that Joe …He is right !!
NOT.
:) :)
“Alan Shatter said he would not preempt discussions but noted that the State has never held a referendum unless it is required.
What utter Bulls**t.
Amendment 16 to the Irish Constitution in 1996 allowed the introduction of opinions. Opinions are to be used by judges to decide an issue of bail.
Why was it required to have a referendum to allow the introduction of opinions when reviewing the statute books it reveals that opinions has been used everywhere else in law since at least 1922.
How could they justify using opinions for 74 years and then ask the people to vote on an issue opinions and bail? Its a bit late to ask our permission to use opinions in law for 74 years, that the choice had already been well and truly made before the referendum.
Since 1998 Social Welfare Civil Servants have been using opinions to defraud social welfare recipients. There is no issue of bail in social welfare offices so where did social welfare civil servants get the use of opinions from?
An opinion in law is an act of treason because opinions can hide the details of the crime. I do not remember seeing a voting slip that asked my permission to commit treason.
An opinion in law is a crime against humanity and will deny people protection by law by hiding the details. I do not remember seeing a voting slip that asked my permission to commit crimes against humanity. I do not recognise that I have any authority over the united nations.
Opinions in voting systems hides the details and takes away the choice. Interfering with the choice destroys democracy. Its unlikely that the Irish People have ever made choice and have never chosen their own destiny. Democracy in Ireland is a charade.
@ Loyal Irish
The 16th amendment did no such thing Loyal.
You are an absolute lunatic.
FG have more comedians than the Kilkenny cats laugh festival.
Some of us voted labour believing they would help the common person against the raping of the country by FF/FG .
We get a labour party only interest in lining their own pockets and protecting the unions stranglehold on this country.
Enda and the clowns he put into cabinet bend over to their European masters at every chance they get.
someone should sack his new advisor ……proving himself to be ovrr paid and incompetent!!
He should have just stuck to his “bomb” will go off line. Keep it dramatic.Go on scare the crap out of us. Please. I think at this stage we all are exhausted from yer spoof.
P S
Leo, In case you have forgotten, on the infamous night of the ‘Bank Guarantee Scheme’ we saw how ‘Parlimentary Democracy’ works and what it did to the Irish people, it has condemned us to austerity for the next 20 years!!
Remember that the next time that you try to put forward the merits of being a ‘Parlimentary Democracy’!!
Wake up Varadadadadadadadadadkar! Voting is not democratic???? My God this guy needs a good slap!!!
I do believe what Enda said, people did go mad borrowing! But I can’t believe he had the nerve to say it out load!!! How many times will he get away with having two views on one topic or get away with lying to his electorate? I have a feeling he will always get away with it because us Irish just love to be trampled on!
Get rid of this muppet and give Kermit his job.
People voting – undemocratic, so by his logic Facism – democratic maybe? The inner blue shirt starting to show its face in a lot of FG heads these days, racism, anti-immigration and now complaints about democracy. What will it be next not enough people going to mass?
Lol
Please do a poll on this…just for the irony
I think the population is still looking for an explanation as to Lisbon 2. If the government want to pass this without referendum then maybe they should explain in plain English what it means for Ireland. If this is done and enda and the gang get a better deal other than austerity then maybe it could be acceptable to push it through without referendum. However no transparency no trust.
Can’t stand bullshit that comes out of Leo’s and Lucinda’s trap if they don’t know what’s going on then keep your trap shut. Unless they are telling us something that’s relevant to transport or in Lucinda’s case relevant to the treaty then keep there gobs shut.
This was a pretty dumb thing to say.
He is, unfortunately, correct. Any question on a new treaty will become a debate on everthing but the treaty. This is aleady happening. Sinn Fein want a referendum so they can get stuck into the Labour party and the left wing of Fianna Fail.
Ok, number of things on what you said here Peter. 1.All elections are about issues which may or may not be directly related to the topic or issue at hand, do you really think that many people support FG as votes they got in the election? I hope not, simply put they benefited from FF’s collapse as people punished them and just so happened to go to the least objectionable option available(FG).
2.The Presidential Election stands as another point in case-it was not about the presidency but more about economics and politics, things the president has very little say or impact upon really.
3.Most importantly if all THERE IS NO LEFT WING OF FINNA FAIL, what ever gave you that idea? They are as right wing as they come, please don’t ever make this mistake again and please try to educate yourself as to what left wing actually means. I say this out of genuine concern for people out there who may become confused by what FF say in opposition and start to think FF are anything other than what they were when they were in power.
I said it below. We have the same people in here scaremongering on a daily basis, then objecting to Leo Varadkar pointing out exactly what they are doing. I thought Irish people understood irony.
Hayes two weeks ago,noonan last week Kenny and lethal Leo this week,can they kick us further into the gutter and have a laugh at us!
If referendums are ‘not very democratic’, where does that leave parliamentary elections – on a scale from absolutely despotic to fantastically democratic when our boys get a seat at cabinet table? Leo, are you listening?
We need a Xfactor type of government where we get to vote out the worst minister every month.
There’d be nobody left come Christmas. Let’s do it :-)
I really dislike Varadkar. He comes across as arrogant and unpleasant and generally a dislikeable fellow. I have heard anecdotally that this is actually the case. His effort at getting his advisor €135k was just disgraceful hypocrisy of the highest order.
However in this particular case he is probably right. Im not certain whether its fair to say referenda are undemocratic. But he is correct in saying that the People will use the referendum as a means to bash the government rather than addressing the actual issue on the ballot paper. As such we will get an overwhelming NO vote regardless of the merits of the actual change to the constitution. In much the same way as we got an overwhelming YES vote on the issue of the Judges.
That’d be democracy so.
Thats not democracy its a perversion of democracy.
They are required to vote on one particular issue of great importance and they decide to vote on another one.
Wonder how Leo would fare in a dictatorship or even anarchism? He should realise that democracy actually supports his right to say things, stupid and hurtful things, and us lot not go round there and tear him limb from limb! Think before you talk Leo!
Dear Journal, if you have no new news, stop repeating comments Leo made when he was on his local residents association. Surely you don’t think this was a new comment by a elected TD, we all know the last 5 comments over the last 2 months by your media outlet were infact by a young, uneducated, and inexperienced Leo from years ago.
what? this isn’t new news? when did the muppet say this before?
Hi Joseph,
I think that Darren is being sarcastic in his comment as Varadkar’s words come directly from an interview with RTÉ yesterday.
I think he has his tongue-firmly-in-cheek when he says they must be from an inexperienced politician and not a Cabinet member.
Correct me if I’m wrong Darren!
Thanks,
Sinead
thanks sinead, i was only adding my own flavour of sarcasm to the mix….
Oh! Maybe I should just stay out of it in the future ;)
i know sinead, u can’t share your personal opinion on leo ‘the lips’,
journalistic integrity and all,
but, mmmm… cough once if you think leo is a muppet :-)
Yes this comment is all Sarcasm, sorry, was trying to mirror Leo by adding humour to a serious debate!
@reada agreed point is thar Norman tebbit wing developing although Leo would not be too welcome in that part of the Tories
Varadkarspeak!
He said…”I would be concerned that it would turn into a referendum on extraneous issues such as septic tanks, bondholders, banking crisis or decisions being made by the Government, such as cutbacks.”
That’s entirely true. Many of you are in here day in and day out scaremongering and claiming you’ll vote no, no matter what. Now your objecting to Varadkar pointing out exactly what you are doing. I fear irony is not a friend to many of you.
It would make it almost impossible for us” to continue in the euro if we voted against treaty.”
At least we would be an independent sovreign nation.
They , the gov , have a hidden agenda that is not so hidden any more ….
i am more afraid of being part of Europe the way things are going , than going it alone outside of the eurozone.
I’m not sure if I should be frightened that people think being a small poor ‘sovereign’ nation is something to aspire to. Besides no small resource poor nation can be sovereign, it’s simply not possible in this globalised world of ours. Even Norway with all it’s money signs up to all EU legislation without having any hand in making it.
In Leo we trust.
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