Yep banks that loaned the money to Greece to fund Greek public services, pensions and infrastructure projects

Apparently no. The previous money years back that was handed over to Greece already went to paying back private bondholders, i.e. mostly French and German and other private banks. Apparently that was about €45bn total. What I’ve read is that Greece now owes private banks “only” about €2bn and the rest is now owed to the troika, i.e. the taxpayer. So, exact same situation as here, junior and senior bondholders getting taxpayer bail-outs. Makes you think. Nobody has got preferential treatment so far because the others (Ireland, Portugal, …) would cry foul.

So what’s happening now is that this money will be handed to Greece so they can hand it back “with interest” to troika (Eurogroup, ECB, IMF). Where the IMF get their funds I do not know (US $ = Fed?). ECB presumably can be thought of as Eurozone taxpayer money. If Greece default on this we all lose out. I divided €43bn by 330 million (pop. of €zone) and got about €130. So every man, woman, and child in the €zone has already leant Greece that much.

No doubt the Germans are smart enough to realise that if we, the countries of Europe, hand over another 25 or 50 billion, without real collateral and control mechanisms to manage the money the minute the cash hits the Greek coffers:

- Tsipras will be toppled for agreeing to reforms and;
- Varoufakis will re-appear on the scene in his leather jacket, with a new extreme left party to take the reins and say thanks for the cash, go fook yourselves SUCKERS!

And we’ll then be into bailout #4 before Christmas when the Greeks will be back saying we are sooooooo sorry, give us more money. It’s your fault for bailing us out 3 times before but not forcing us to change our ways.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qcBmitvwKZM

Get them ‘euros’ to the greek

So what was the referendum about… i don’t think it was for €50 billion in Greek owned assets to be owned by foreigners.
Syriza have surely lost all credibility – beware those that would vote SF- we have just seen a display of the sort of grandstanding that would have left Ireland also on the margins of Europe.
The Europeans had to face down Greece here – if they were bullied into accepting this it would have lead to other countries seeking better deal… Greece are the patsies. Their governments antics over the last few weeks only hardened resolve.

Merkrl to Tsipras- “and I’ll have the other ball too young man!!”

You’re forgetting the bit where most of this debt has nothing to do with banks.

whatever happens this will end up like a train crash

Yates whats wrong with seeking a better deal?

A populist sound bite. The funds on the liability side of the bank balance sheet support assets such as Greek govt bonds and loans on the other side of the balance sheet. The proceeds of Greek bond issues are used to fund the public sector employees and general society. So this idea that you give money to banks and it doesn’t benefit Greeks is ridiculous. Also if the cost of the funds is lower than the yield on government bonds it is extremely attractive for banks to buy them in the secondary market.

Few learning points from this entire event: 1) Greece needlessly did the stunt of referendum, eventually to accept the conditions. Now it has been made to look like that even after the odds of referendum, ECM did it for Greece and these bigwigs of ECM will use this card later to play Greece for sure. 2) Greece eventually need steps for sustainable economy, i.e equal or more productivity as compared to total debt which is a mammoth task. 3)This will be first and last tenure for shariza. as the austerity burden will drive Greeks crazy and they will show it in next election.4) No country is immune to debt, all have it, every rich country has debt in BILLIONS, http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/#countries.
Important is whether a country’s total assets and productivity are more than the debt..

Give it a rest Yeats … If there was no deal and Greece left the Euro you would be on here saying beware by voting SF we are in danger of leaving the Euro or some other rubbish .

@Ray – They gambled and lost – swaggering into negotiations as experts in gambling theory etc – it was all grandstanding. They bluffed and were called on it. This time last year Greece was best performing economy in the EU – this year they are here. Syriza have brought instability, have had their banks hemorrhage assets and all because they sold the lie to the Greeks that they continue as tehy have been doing with no consequence. Yet again the population duped by a populist political entity just like Labour in Ireland.

These past few weeks have been a disaster for the greek people – and its not over yet. I don’t honestly see how this deal is sustainable.. if i was Greek i would be deeply worried. I don’t honestly see how they can achieve what this deal has set out.

@cillian32 as a SF supporter you would say that. I’m merely pointing out that the same of grandstanding the Syriza party was being lauded by SF – if they were going to leave the EU then they should have done it… what they have done is get the same deal as they could have got a month ago except now the country is infinitely worse – that’s the difference.

No, debt repayment will come from managing or selling €50 billion of Greek government held assets. 50% to the creditors 50% to Greece for restructuring investment? The bailout will include refinancing existing debt at lower interest rates and extended repayment periods. Greek banks will be recapitalised so that they can reopen for normal business. The tough part for Greece is the humiliation that results from the lack of trust. The Greek government has to pass the legislation required to meet these terms Before the bailout is triggered. Other countries like Ireland were believed when they made agreements.

They have gained serious debt restructuring and at least half the proceeds of privatisation stays in Greece.

Given that the Greek population wants to stay in the Eurozone, the outcome is positive for Greece.

@ yates yes the f.g approach was much better get the taxpayers to bend over and take the pain while being one of the highest paid leaders in Europe and increasing the pensions of those outstanding leaders who have gone before. Aherne, cowan, Bruton, Dukes etc.

The looting of the Greek people continues. The Euro is a monetary trap which facilitates the transfer of wealth from the working class to a capitalist elite. This is what we see occurring in Greece now with their national assets and infrastructure being annexed for the neo liberal vultures. The same process can be observed particularly in Ireland, Spain, Portugal and across all the countries of the Eurozone.

The transfer of wealth in reflected in mass unemployment, decimated health, education and social services, increasing pension ages, privatization of national infrastructure, water charges, home taxes, and a thousand other attacks on the living standards of ordinary people.

The ECB is the monopoly issuer of the Euro and creates at will the money which is being extracted with menaces from the Greek and Irish people and which is gutting our economy and society. The rising tide of poverty and misery across the Eurozone is entirely unnecessary.

Rather it is a deliberate policy choice of neoliberal governments and institutions which dominate the EU. They continue to insist that systemic failure of speculative financial capitalism in 2008 will be borne by ordinary people of Europe and not by those who caused it.

There is no lack of any of the real resources (e.g. energy, food, material to build housing etc) to meet the human needs of the citizens of the Europe or anywhere in the developed world. (Or indeed the rest of the planet if the advanced industrial nations would lead the way instead of exploiting the third world.) Neither can there ever be a shortage of money at a macro level. So all the ingredients are present to solve the economic and social crisis in Europe and elsewhere.

This is economic vandalism on an epic scale being perpetrated on Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal for the benefit of a corporate elite under the manifestly failed ideology of neo liberalism. Solidarity with the Greek people in their struggle against this monstrous injustice.

It should be understood that sovereign currency issuing nations like the U.K are never required to balance the books or sell state assets in order to obtain their own currency. A budget deficit is of no concern to a nation with control of its own currency. The U.K can sustain ANY size of debt or deficit which is denominated in sterling. The ‘debt’ and any interest due is paid via keystrokes at the Bank of England. That is why the enormous £850 billion bank bailout in the U.K. did not bankrupt the nation as it did in Ireland’s case and why the EU holds no stick over Britain, Sweden etc.

The difference with Greece and Ireland is that these nation’s debts are effectively a foreign currency debt which cannot be keystroked out of existence as monetary sovereignty has been ceded to the ECB. So Ireland, Greece, Spain Portugal etc must obtain Euros to service the debt using the real resources (e.g labour or exports) of the nation or borrow euro funding externally also to be repaid ultimately with the real resources of the citizens. It’s a neo liberal Catch 22 and the working class of the Eurozone are the victims.

Red Betty won’t be making Alexis a packed lunch anymore i suppose he’ll be out of work soon

@Ben. WRONG.

1) 25% at most stays in Greece
2) No guarantee of restructure at all. The document says it will be discussed…..thats all.

So Greece bent over, but who got to insert the ceremonial shaft? Was it Merkel?

@Coddler Rooney

“U.K are never required to balance the books or sell state assets in order to obtain their own currency. A budget deficit is of no concern to a nation with control of its own currency”

Following the financial crisis of 2008-9, Britain was forced to implement harsh austerity measures in an attempt to reduce its deficit and increase economic growth.. & yes they did QE

So why did the UK just bring in another Austerity Budget ? Again, So far, £35bn has been cut; the plan is to cut a further £55bn by 2019. UK Office for Budget Responsibility said in December that the chancellor’s plans would mean one million further government job losses by 2020 (a total fall from early 2011 of 1.3 million), representing a 20% fall in headcount.

If it has its own currency why bother ?…. oh yea your Zimbabwean economics model makes no sense in the long term & every country that done what you said has endup up a basket case or doesn’t exist today #simple

Can the actions here by EU and 18 other eurozone members not be likened to that of applying stricter parental control over an unruly child?

Greece’s economy will benefit in the long run from the tough medicine about to be dished out. Countless governments there have in the past mismanaged the nation’s finances culminating in the current unholy mess. It just couldn’t continue, unchecked. Someone had to cry halt!

This morning’s solution is a far better alternative to cutting Greece loose and leaving to its own devices. Now that would be a disaster in the making, bringing real pain and misery to the majority of the population!

A tax amnesty, an injection of 50% proceeds from sales of state assets into infrastructural development and a meaner leaner public service, all should deliver the necessary capital to refloat the Greek Economy and rebuild trust and confidence with its international stakeholders.

Ffs there’s no one trying to rob anyone here, only assist, towards a better, economically stable and peaceful Europe. Get real Coddler!

Jeff,

As explained, the U.K. deficit is irrelevant in economic terms. However it is a valuable propaganda tool for the neo liberal regimes of the U.K. to attack the working class by savaging the social support systems which benefit the majority. The Tories (and Lib Dems previously) use the false household budget, balance the books understanding of the macro economy to justify the cuts you listed.

It’s all entirely unnecessary but don’t take my word for it.

“The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that. So there is zero probability of default.” Alan Greenspan

“In the case of United States, default is absolutely impossible. All U.S. government debt is denominated in U.S. dollar assets.” Peter Zeihan, Vice President of Analysis forSTRATFOR

“In the case of governments boasting monetary sovereignty and debt denominated in its own currency, like the United States (but also Japan and the UK), it is technically impossible to fall into debt default.” Erwan Mahe, European asset allocation and options strategies adviser

“There is never a risk of default for a sovereign nation that issues its own free-floating currency and where its debts are denominated in that currency.” Mike Norman, Chief Economist for John Thomas Financial

“There is no inherent limit on federal expenses and therefore on federal spending…When the U.S. government decides to spend fiat money, it adds to its banking reserve system and when it taxes or borrows (issues Treasury securities) it drains reserves from its banking system. These reserve operations are done solely to maintain the target Federal Funds rate.” Monty Agarwal , managing partner and chief investment officer of MA Managed Futures Fund

“As the sole manufacturer of dollars, whose debt is denominated in dollars, the U.S. government can never become insolvent, i.e., unable to pay its bills. In this sense, the government is not dependent on credit markets to remain operational.” Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

“A sovereign government can always make payments as they come due by crediting bank accounts — something recognized by Chairman Ben Bernanke when he said the Fed spends by marking up the size of the reserve accounts of banks.” L. Randall Wray, Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and a Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute

But I’m guessing you know all this already Jeff but are one of the parasites who benefit from the Thatcherite status quo.

Jeff Twitter Profile: “Freeman & Trader, Small Hedge Fund Manager, Ex City Boy”

Yo Ben – RTE & BBC are saying Syriza are spoofing again. Little to no mention of the debt restructuring u talk about. Care to show everyone where u see it.

Rory,
Here’s 2 Nobel prize winning economists that would fundamentally disagree with you:

Joseph Stiglitz

“Europe’s leaders remain convinced that structural reform must be their top priority. But the problems they point to were apparent in the years before the crisis, and they were not stopping growth then. What Europe needs more than structural reform within member countries is reform of the structure of the eurozone itself, and a reversal of austerity policies, which have failed time and again to reignite economic growth. Those who thought that the euro could not survive have been repeatedly proven wrong. But the critics have been right about one thing: unless the structure of the eurozone is reformed, and austerity reversed, Europe will not recover. The drama in Europe is far from over. One of the EU’s strengths is the vitality of its democracies. But the euro took away from citizens – especially in the crisis countries – any say over their economic destiny. Repeatedly, voters have thrown out incumbents, dissatisfied with the direction of the economy – only to have the new government continue on the same course dictated from Brussels, Frankfurt, and Berlin. With regard to economics I can say Syriza are absolutely right.”

Paul Krugman

“You need to realize that most — not all, but most — of what you’ve heard about Greek profligacy and irresponsibility is false. Yes, the Greek government was spending beyond its means in the late 2000s. But since then it has repeatedly slashed spending and raised taxes. Government employment has fallen more than 25 percent, and pensions (which were indeed much too generous) have been cut sharply. If you add up all the austerity measures, they have been more than enough to eliminate the original deficit and turn it into a large surplus.
So why didn’t this happen? Because the Greek economy collapsed, largely as a result of those very austerity measures, dragging revenues down with it.”
“Don’t be taken in by claims that troika officials are just technocrats explaining to the ignorant Greeks what must be done. These supposed technocrats are in fact fantasists who have disregarded everything we know about macroeconomics, and have been wrong every step of the way. This isn’t about analysis, it’s about power — the power of the creditors to pull the plug on the Greek economy, which persists as long as euro exit is considered unthinkable.”

So Coddler do you have your own opinion or what? All I ever see is copy and paste stuff from you. You say a lot without actually saying anything at all. That’s AAA in a nutshell

Coddler is like Greece, all talk, lot of text, messed up, ruined the economy but thankfully no one else economy and then will go hide and try wait for the next crisis

David, the Greeks didn’t squander their original loans, 90% of the loans were used to pay back gambling bankers and bondholders in French and German banks. It’s all there for you to see. The people of Greece didnt benefit from the bailouts at all. They, like us, were saddled with private banking debt. That’s the facts.

Squandered it alright, as 93% went straight out to banks, deliberately moving bank debt from banks to citizens, very little left to spend on growing the economy, hence almost every notable economist branding the previous two bailouts failures. They caused further damage to the economy, hopefully this agreement will actually allow the economy to grow.

Ian, the origenal loans were to fund the running of the country – where do you think the debts arose from in the first place??

You can’t keep going on that fait currencies are immune to debt. You are effectively saying that they can spend however much money they want with no repercussions because they can just print more money. Even going away from how stupid that actually is, if it were true how come nobody ever does it? Well Zimbabwe did but that doesn’t really support your argument.
It just doesn’t work that way, yes you can accumulate a huge debt and yes you can print more money and pay but but you massively devalue you currency and have situations where basic goods suddenly costing 1000s.
Spending within your means and long term planned growth are the accepted models around the world because they work. You just can keep going from high spending to bust, to bail out over and over and say that it is any way to run an economy. Just stop!

Aidan, gold star if you can convince Waffler of the glaring flaw in his coddernomic theory – dozens of other commenters have tried over the last 12 months but he just doesn’t want to hear the message.

This is the actual wording in the release…”the Greek authorities shall take the following actions: to develop a significantly scaled up privatisation programme with improved governance; valuable Greek assets will be transferred to an independent fund that will monetise the assets through privatisations and other means. The monetization of the assets will be one source to make the scheduled repayment of the new loan of ESM and generate over the life of the new loan a targeted total of EUR 50bn of which EUR 25bn will be used for the repayment of recapitalisation of banks and other assets and 50pc of every remaining euro (i.e. 50pc of EUR 25bn) will be used for decreasing the debt to GDP ratio and the remaining 50pc will be used for investments”

@ Anto/ others, I have no time at all for AAA but if coddler is wrong in what he’s says or what he quotes please show where he is wrong, I genuinely want to know!
Don’t just say he is talking bull poo! Prove it to us!!

He’s wrong because (apart from doing it in a limited and sustainable way) keystroking money into existence instantly creates inflationary and devaluation pressures.
That’s why he’s unable to provide a single example of a country that has successfully eliminated poverty and austerity by just printing as much money as it wants without having to deal with any negative consequences.
Its pretty basic economics.

Coddler, I posted this above, but it very much applies to you and Paul Murphy, and all the other supporters of a Grexit.

Alex Andreou, a Greek blogger wrote this today.

His quote.

“We apologise to Marxists worldwide for Greece refusing to commit ritual suicide to further the cause. You have suffered from your sofas”

We’re talking about the Greek crisis Ray. What are you talking about?

Avina have a look at reg’s comment and come back to me.

You may have missed it Ray, but successive Greek governments have been spending other people’s money for years.

Every time Enda enters an EU meeting they play this.
http://www.televisiontunes.com/Magic_Roundabout.html

Avina this is not rocket science happened here too who was spending other peoples money here?

Trying to compare the situation in Greece with that of Ireland is both trite and completely inaccurate. Greek debts are almost entirely sovereign – money used to fund the day to day running of the country. Ireland’s are not.

Greekastrophic.

Avina i am not compairing greece to ireland i am asking who was spending other peoples money here do you understand.

Avina i am not trying to compair greece to ireland i am asking who was spending other peoples money here do you understand.

Ray, what don’t you understand about “Greek sovereign debt”?

As I’ve said on here before, everyone in Greek society benefited on some level, from the gardeners paid to tend a non-existent garden, to the hairdressers retiring at 55 on a full pension because their’s was a ‘dangerous profession’, to tax evaders at all levels from market traders to shipping magnates and everyone in between.

Avina what part of here do you not understand.

Ray, the Irish government have been spending European tax payers money since the beginning of the bailout. This occurs when a government doesn’t take in as much money as it has been spending.

To keep our economy from collapsing, european and IMF money was used to keep paying social welfare, public sector pay, and to pay for a creaking health system, along with an anaemic capital spending program.

This was us (Ireland) spending other people’s (the EU taxpayer and others, via bailout funds). We will be paying it back for years, but it propped up our middle class to the tune of tens of billions of euro.

Do you get it now?

Ronan I always got it avina did not.

and so…..the liquidation of Greece began…..

Its like going to the dentist, the pain comes before the extraction takes place.
There was nothing righteous about Greece governments bankrupting the country only to be told that they are not trusted by their friends.

@Ray
Any person in Ireland who gets more money from the state in direct cash or services than they pay in total taxes is a net receipient and therefore is spending someone else’s money.

This tells us all we wanted to know about populist parties election promises! Syriza said they would end austerity & the people foolishly believed them. Now Greece is in far worse situation because these leftwing spoofers. Beware of imitations & Syriza apologists here as they sprout out their fantasy policies.

We fought a righteous battle, well a self righteous battle, and we had out backsides handed to us by a feeble old woman, who will save us now from the Turks and the Germans?

Like the Greeks of old who watched their country crumble into submission. Having all of their state assets taken into trust as collateral for loans from German banks is a suffering blow to a defeated nation.

Ronan, get your facts right. 75 % of the money lent by the EU was used to save the Irish banks who mainly had French and German bonds. Only 25 % of the money lent was used to make the country run. BOHICA .. Bend Over It’s Coming Again …

We have been loaned €220b and of that €64b went to the banks, the rest was spent on day to day running of the country due to tax receipts falling but our spending being cut at a slower rate.

With sales from NAMA and the sales of shares in the banks, this €64b will be reduced to around €20b.

How is €20b 75% of €220b.?

Is that some kind of new economics?

We’re just lucky that it was Greece that made a stand and not us.

If this had been Ireland, there is no way our 12.5% Corporation Tax rate would still be in place.

Syriza took over an economy in growth with falling unemployment and have left it in ruins, with capital controls in place and at least €20 billion added to the debt as a direct result of tier actions.

They gambled and lost and the consequences will be felt for generations.

@Barry. Greece’s growth was negligible. Any fruits of that growth would be used to servicing the interest payments on the debt rather than providing investment into infrastructure, health and education services.
If all things go to plan for the Eurogroup, the banks will re-open shortly. From where the Greek economy is today, to twelve months from now Greece will be the fastest growing economy in Europe. This will touted as a success, but is simply delussional. That growth will be wasted on servicing an unsustainable debt. Greece will need to grow 3-4%per year for the next 30yrs in order to simply service the debt. Not sustainable.

No John – as the member of the Irish Government democratically elected – he speaks for Ireland, and is recognised as speaking for Ireland. You speak for John Burke… Michael Noonan speaks for Ireland.

FG do not speak for me.

Yes they do.. sorry that’s democracy. In fact Enda Kenny is on the news right now speaking on behalf of you – as an irish citizen. Unless you are not an Irish taxpayer living in ireland of course.

No the don’t.

@ Stephen

Can’t disagree with anything you say Stephen.

The debt is unsustainable.

But the key question is, did Syriza ultimately make things better or worse for Greece?

The answer to that is pretty clear.

If they had got a write down it would have been worthwhile but anyone who knows how ruthless international commerce is should have known they never had a chance.

Stephen, you raise some fair points but its nonsense to see it as the destruction of democracy. As the premier of Finland said, they can’t vote in Greece to get given more money by Finland.
The Greek parliament, comprised of elected representatives of the Greek people, will still get the opportunity to either accept the proposed deal, or reject it and go it alone.

@John Yeah they do.

@Barry/Avina

The path chosen by the Eurogroup was not necessary. It was a political decision. True, Greece simply can’t vote not to pay loans or anything like that, but Greece did not vote for that. The Greek government has been consistent in saying it WANTS to pay its debt, but as such that debt is unsustainable that it CANT pay its debt. The Eurogroup don’t really care about Greece’s pension system or VAT rates. What they care about is Greeces ability to raise enough taxes to pay for its expenditures. It doesn’t really matter what form that occurs. Greece has failed in that regard, but imposing further debt on Greece in the pretence that pension and VAT reforms will turn their fortunes around is delusional. You can examine any economy in Europe, including Germay, and point to ‘reforms’ that should or could be made.
The Eurogroup have failed on this occasion (again) to accept the reality that the construct of the euro is fundamentally flawed. The can is being kicked down the road, which country is next to collapse? Italy? Spain? Because of the democratic actions of the Greek people, the flaws in the euro have been dramatically exposed. How long before currency markets lose faith in the euro?

Correct. Second failure of a populist movement in Europe after France. It doesn’t work – there are no winners in Greece today. The lenders and Eurocrats are hardly happy with the result either. Greece needs growth and foreign capital and investment. That requires trust and diplomacy. Something that populist parties to not possess.

Nor for me .

Completely agree with you Stephen – the concept of the Euro was fundamentally flawed from the start (as the Brits pointed out at the time).

Both Greece and its creditors needed to compromise and I think everyone (apart from maybe the most dogmatic of hardliners) recognises that Greece badly needs some debt restructuring if they’re to stand any chance of paying back the money loaned to them.

When the precise details of this deal emerge we’ll see exactly how many compromises were made, but the point is that both the Greeks and the Germans (and everyone else) needs to be able to sell it to their respective electorate.

My feeling is that both sides will see it as a bad deal, but as a price that needs to be paid to ensure stability. It remains to be seen what the electorates will make of it.

The consequences of SYRIZA will be felt for generations??? Oh FFS!

They’ll get their write down eventually but only once creditors are confident that they won’t pull this stunt again. The write down was never going to come when their government was publicly backing away from the necessary reforms.

They have suggested these reforms many many times, byt were warned any legislation on VAT or tax without a new agreement would be a unilateral move and would set any negotiations on third bailout back for ages.

Do some fupen reading. I’m sick and tired of hearing all these lazy and blatantly false arguments.

Let it be clear SYRIZA have wanted to bring in tax and VAT reforms from the very beginning but were pressurised not to. You can verify this easily by reading some articles. They only argue over certain VAT increases on islands

They have as well as oh somany other outsiders have been arguing all along that they need debt write down for allt his to be feasible.

Stop telling yourself that they have been refusing to reform their own country, they have wanted to put have been told for past 5 months that all legislation was to be part of a new agreement and had to wait, SYRIA wanted debt write down as part of new agreement, ergo impasse.

ONE MORE TIME, SYRIZA didand always have wanted to reform tax and VAT structure.you can easily find primary source evidence of this if you wish, you can aso easiily find equally irrefutable proof of why it couldnt/ wasnt advisabble to do so, if they ever wished to get an agreement on what is a neccessary third bailout

Greece sold to highest bidder

Have you got a neutral link to support that assertion Calvin?
Not saying you’re wrong, but two days ago Tsipiras himself said they haven’t been able to look at implimenting any reforms since coming into power as they’d been too busy trying to manage the current crisis.

I know nothing about finance or economics at all! But it seems to me to another “can kicking exercise” that Ronan O Gara would be proud of.

I see “us” being here again in a year or so, maybe less maybe more, but as the old saying goes, time will tell!!!

What it shows is the need for root and branch reform of EU -nothing less.

This is nothing more than a bloodless coup of a soverign Govt by a corrupt few in power – Germany will asset strip Greece and leave it penniless and cast adrift through insustainable debt.

What has been exposed is the blatant lie that underlies the Euro -the ECB is not the backstop it pretends to be for the Euro across all nations – it is a politican means of subjucation. Disagree and you are out.

That lie fed unprecedented borrowings by corrupt govts across Europe and now instead of inflating their way out of debt the Germans insust on austerity – easy for them they have every country by the short and curlies – now to subjugate them one by one.

Mark my words Ireland’s day is also coming – we too will be put under the jackboots of the real Europe.

Alex Andreou, a Greek blogger wrote this today.

His quote.

“We apologise to Marxists worldwide for Greece refusing to commit ritual suicide to further the cause. You have suffered from your sofas”

By the way folks, I heard on the BBC tonight, a Greek economist saying that the past 2 and 1/2 weeks posturing by Syriza has cost the Greek economy €14b.

That’s €14b less that they will have for this years budget and will have to make up through spending cuts or tax raising.

That’s what 2 and 1/2 weeks of grandstanding cost the people.

By the way, the link to the Blog is here.

https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/164

At least that son didn’t leave his mother for another woman like mine did.

The Greeks have never refused to pay, what they have refused to do is commit their people to penury, something FG have taken to with alacrity, knowing, of course that the chosen few would not be affected. No austerity in Mount St.

OneTrueVoice- Excellent analogy.

Martin. The Greeks have refused to pay about €70billion in tax since 2009. Before they were elected Syriza supported movements that encouraged people not to pay new taxes and tax raising dropped off before their election as people betted they’d abolish them.

@onetruevoice… the analogy makes sense only if you understand that the parents are also the heroin dealers, who are making money from the son’s problems… they want them to be OK, but they want their money back first.

Wrong Alien, all the creditors are looking for is a realistic plan for repayment over the long term and some evidence that reforms will be implemented. Greece can’t continue as a basket case because they are culturally averse to tax and economic efficiency.

Tough love is required. The Greek governments have always been free to spend their borrowed money as they see fit and not collect taxes. That era is hopefully finally coming to an end.

Martin- Throw whatever digs you want at FG, but the proof is in the pudding. Their Ireland is in full recovery mode and the dividends extend well beyond any “chosen few”- the 110,000 people with new jobs, for example. Syriza’s Greece is in tatters and their poorest people there are amongst those suffering the most.

Martin, not only have the Greeks refused to pay, they have already defaulted, the first country in the world since Zimbabwe to do so

@onetruevoice, when you’re lending your junkie son all that money, are you asking that he pays you back with interest?

@ david doyle don’t ever refer to my country as “their country when referring to f.g. I think you will find that they have about 25% support in the 26 counties, meaning 75% of the country either hate them or just think they are cowardly and incompetent.
Can you explain how since f.g massive recovery the number of homeless have trebled (f.g handing out sleeping bags). maybe the number of patients on trolleys and longer waiting lists is a sign of their recovery or is it the fall in the average working wage or the cuts to pensioners welfare entitlements.
I know I see all the boarded up shops, pubs and hotels in rural Ireland as a clear indication that f.g were correct to implement f.f policy to keep the recovery on track.

All this talk about the Greeks being adverse to this and that, that they don’t like paying taxes etc…
If you look closely at any economy, including Germany, you won’t be long finding areas where ‘reform’ is needed. People point to the pension system in Greece and the early retirement, but France also has serious issues in that regard. France also has a high debt to GDP ratio – around 90%.
The reason no-one is shining a light on France is because their banks have not gone bust. The reason their banks have not gone bust is because so much of the bailout money for Ireland, Greece, Portugal has found its way back to French banks.
The way Germany operates its economy needs to be looked at also. Germany produces surplus budgets on a regular basis. But those surpluses are often reserved to keep national debt down. Nothing wrong with that per se, but the effect of it in a currency union is that Germany can borrow at next to nothing from the ECB but it chooses not to do so. Instead the borrowing falls to private banks who in turn lent wrecklessly to other private banks. This is policy decision. German prudence when it comes to public spending is not matched when left to German private capitalists.