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EARLIER TODAY, GARDAÍ investigating yesterday’s attacks on three innocent people in Dundalk said they have so far found no evidence that they were terror-related.
Investigators are still making inquiries internationally but based on the information to hand, I am not convinced that the incident in Louth was terrorism either.
It was, however, terrifying and understandably generated a great deal of fear locally and nationally.
Only last month, in a piece published on TheJournal.ie, I predicted ‘lone wolf’ terror attacks involving knife wielding perpetrators would continue to be a threat throughout the EU, including Ireland, during 2018.
From the scraps of initial information emanating from Dundalk yesterday morning, we knew of a marauding knife attack in the town involving a young man of Middle Eastern origin.
The initial fatal stabbing attack on Japanese citizen, 24-year-old Yosuke Sasaki occurred on Avenue Road, Dundalk at around 9am. Over the next 45 minutes or so, another young man, an Irish citizen, was reportedly stabbed on Coe’s Road. Another young man was reportedly assaulted with a fence post at Seatown Place.
This information entered the public domain in a gradual, drip-feed manner.
The attacks echoed many of the hallmarks of recent so-called ‘lone wolf’ attacks carried out by Islamist extremists in Britain, France and Germany – a stabbing ‘spree’ targeting random defenceless victims on the street.
As a consequence, predictably and understandably, there was a great deal of fear and concern expressed through traditional, digital and social media that this might be a terror attack.
However, there were many elements of the incidents that did not match the patterns of such terrorist attacks. The first victim was taken completely by surprise and was stabbed from behind. So-called Islamist jihadis typically confront their victims in crowded places while shouting slogans or phrases in Arabic.
Most Islamist terrorists – who have been groomed online or instructed or trained by a terror cell – tend to select targets for their attacks where there are large concentrations of people, such as restaurants or transport hubs; not quiet streets in small towns. The intention is to attempt to create a mass casualty incident – to kill and wound as many people as possible.
The alleged perpetrator was arrested having reportedly being observed behaving ‘erratically’ by an unarmed member of An Garda Síochána. This would also appear to be inconsistent with the determined, purposeful and suicidal actions of killers in previous terror attacks involving knives.
Communication breakdown
When such attacks occur in the EU or USA, the authorities normally provide regular updates on the evolving situations. Police and security apparatuses in developed nations invest significant resources in communicating their response to the general public. This is always done when such organisations are in extremis – in the middle of a major terrorist attack or in its immediate aftermath.
For example, the Manchester Police provided regular public briefings and updates during the night of the Manchester Arena bombing and into the early hours of the morning following the attack – despite the fact that there was frantic police and first-responder activity underway in dealing with the 23 fatalities and almost 500 people injured.
As well as this frontline aspect, their job also entails keeping the public calm and ensuring they are safe – or if they are not, to tell them how to make themselves more so.
Proactive, public engagement and dynamic crisis communication are built into the emergency response planning of the police forces within most EU states and developed nations. It is considered international best practice to communicate proactively to the public during terrorist, or possible terrorist, incidents – using both traditional and digital media and social media platforms.
In the aftermath of the Dundalk incident, An Garda Síochána issued a short press statement confirming a stabbing incident at 10.35am but they did not hold a press conference until 3pm.
In the intervening hours of relative silence, wild speculation proliferated on social media platforms with a great deal of Islamaphobic and anti-immigrant sentiment expressed in some quarters.
Initial reports described the 18-year-old man as a ‘Syrian’ national. At least one outlet published, citing unnamed sources, what seems to now be erroneous information that there were Arabic slogans shouted by the perpetrator. Corrections or clarifications were not offered by authorities.
During yesterday’s incident, @GardaTraffic – the force’s official Twitter account ‘with info on traffic and major events’ – only issued one tweet in relation to the incident. At 10.35am, they tweeted that there were road closures and diversions in place in Dundalk, with no further updates or information on the highly charged situation.
@Gardainfo, its account providing ‘general/community Garda info’ did not tweet at all in relation to the incident – save to express sympathy for the victims at 12.33pm today – over 24 hours later.
An Garda Síochána’s emergency response to yesterday’s incidents was world class in very many respects.
Ordinary, unarmed, members of the force responded very rapidly to the incident – in less than seven minutes in the case of the initial fatality.
They also arrested and detained the suspect without the use of excessive or lethal force as is – sadly – often the case in other jurisdictions in such situations.
It would also appear that some members interacted with the suspect on New Year’s Day – treating the teenager with kindness, advising him to register with their colleagues in the Garda National Immigration Bureau in Dublin.
In this manner, Dundalk gardaí appear to have proactively reached out to this young man and acted in good faith and in a manner consistent with an open, free democracy where persons are not detained for lack of identity papers or their equivalent.
In terms of communication and public information however, there is room for considerable improvement on the part of the primary political stakeholders involved in policing, security and intelligence.
I do not believe this is the fault of gardaí on the ground, or indeed Garda management in Dundalk. Nor do I believe it is the fault of the Garda Press Office – it may be a cultural ‘legacy’ issue around secrecy – or a lack of investment and resources in communication at the level of the Department of Justice.
Dr Tom Clonan is a former Captain in the Irish armed forces. He is a security analyst and academic, lecturing in the School of Media in DIT. You can follow him on Twitter here.
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Pretty much proves that the “Trickle-down” Effect is nonsense.
What do you think they do with their money, sit on it?
What do you think William? Seen as you debate with questions
Kevin, I’m talking to Fintan. He made the point. He needs to think more about it.
No, the “Trickle Down” Effect is a major tenet of the capitalist ethos. The notion that while the prosperous continue to prosper, those with less will also prosper if they work hard as wealth trickles down.
Neo liberal economics is a cancer devouring our society. It continues to increase the obscene wealth of a tiny layer at the top at the expense of the majority.
The Anti Austerity Alliance are building a Left alternative and are running 42 candidates in the local elections next May.
http://antiausterityalliance.ie/
Did Someone conduct a straw poll on voting alphabetically?
So Fintan, they don’t sit on it. They REINVEST it which creates more jobs, pay and wealth. This is after generating it in the first place. Bill Gates didn’t steal his billions he created that wealth from nothing by making a product people bought because it made them and their businesses more efficient. That efficiency translates into making them wealth as well. Do you see how it works now?
I remember when the west had lots of computers including in their space ships and the USSR had one, a stolen copy of an IBM 360. Their spacecraft used to control re-entry into the atmosphere from orbit using a gramophone record with instructions on it. Why did “Capitalism” produce the computer? Why didn’t Communism?
A liberal invented the computer. Not a right wing conservative like yourself
It presents the illusion of benefiting the majority while actually solely befitting the minority at the expense of the majority. Thanks for the pedantic tone, I’m well aware of how business works, thank you. However, using the production of consumer goods in a lame attempt to justify the insulated positions of the majority is a bit delusional.
If I recall correctly, was it not the USSR who reached space first? Are you implying that they did that on the back of stolen technology? The US only stepped up the Space Race because the USSR were winning.
*positions of the minority
The inventor of the computer was probably a pragmatist.
Kevin, no one person “invented” the computer. You don’t live in a home for the seriously mentally challenged do you?
That’s very abusive William my friend has Down syndrome but we never talk politics. I don’t live with anyone mentally challenged how does this effect my point of view?
Fintan, they were first into space by sticking an unfortunate, who was lucky to survive, on top of an intercontinental ballistic missile. If you ever want to see a comparison between the USSR and the US when it comes to space technology look up the Apollo Soyuz link up. Even the photo of them linked here will tell you a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo%E2%80%93Soyuz_Test_Project
The Chinese, a Communist dictatorship of over a billion people, landed a rover on the Moon this month, 40 years after the Capital west did.
I can’t think of a single thing invented or even discovered in the USSR. Their Atomic Bomb was built using plans stolen by a couple of spies called Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (since executed) and by Klaus Fuchs.
Kevin, you don’t have a pov, you just spout nonsense.
You’ve a mental health jab to address William
This trickle down effect theory is nonsense. There’s my opinion. Now what issue do you have with the mentally challenged?
I think we might be getting sidetracked, but I think you’re trying to defend the indefensible. Capitalism has brought wealth and prosperity to a select minority to the detriment of the majority. While it has had some positive effects, the widening gap between the wealthy and the poor can not be ignored by anyone who expects to be taken seriously.
Capitalism has created the comfortable life you live and allows you to contribute your nonsense online so don’t knock it. If anything it is the people who have to listen to your nonsense who should malign capitalism.
So we should ignore the devastation that the pursuit of the capitalist ethos has caused? The massive gulfs between the haves and the have nots not to mention the environmental impact it has had?
Fintan, what “devastation”? The environmental devastation wrecked in the USSR was horrendous. People bang on about Chernobyl which was chicken feed in comparison to other nuclear disasters there. One of the benefits of Capitalism or Western Democracy is that it is relatively transparent. Communism wasn’t.
I’ve asked without reply, what’s wrong with “massive gulfs between the haves and the have nots”? Several massive rich guys are building space ships with their billions. How much much wealth might that create?
The poorest of the poor, the bottom say 1-5% of the population can only be helped by forcing them off their knees. How can you help a junkie on O’Connel Street other than locking him up in a hospital or some sort of military compound where he has no access to drugs and drink and is forced to work? It’s certainly debatable that we should. Wouldn’t they be better off?
Have to agree with William. What did we have before capitalism? We had wealthy elites and the poor were much worse off. We still have wealthy elites but now we have large middle class too. In socialist societies we have large poverty and wealthy elites. I’d go with capitalism where I have a chance of a good living.
first computer by Babbage – but it was Alan Turing who really got things going with Colossus
That’s a computer but not as we know it Jim :))
John, what exactly is the method the Shinners use to round up the red thumb brigade. I don’t believe for a second that your last comment warranted 3/1 ratio of red thumbs in a country that votes 20% socialist.
Why should a tiny percentage of privileged people live in the lap of luxury and want for nothing while life is a constant struggle for many. A more equal spread of the wealth would improve the lives of the majority.
Fintan, your comment is a gross oversimplification. A tiny percent don’t live in the lap of luxury. Today a middle class person lives better than a King did 500 years ago. That situation has been created by individuals and not collectives. If Communism had won the day in the 15th century there would be no computers, no internet, little food, indeed we would probably be in the 10th century.
It doesn’t really matter too much if you have 3 bedrooms or 33. It doesn’t matter, if you can eat like 90% of the Irish, whether your beef is from The Golden Vale or Kobe. It really doesn’t matter if you drink €5+(tax of €10) wine or €100 wine. We nearly all live in the lap of luxury, or at least we will when the recession is over.
The wealthy in Ireland already pay far more tax than anyone else. When the wealthy spend their money a large chunk of it goes to fund the social welfare and education systems. Wealthy people donate vast sums to charity. They invest, start new companies and create employment. Then they compete with each other and pay the best wages to get the best people.
I’m surprised no one has said it so far – you’re just a begrudger. Hats off to Michael O’Leary and J P McManus. I’m delighted the winner of this year’s Nobel Prize in Physics got his million, he helped discover the Higgs field. I don’t want any of his money.
Anyway, your Polyanna request for the wealth to be shared is not doable except by force so we’re back to totalitarianism again.
“ no one person “invented” the computer. You don’t live in a home for the seriously mentally challenged do you?”
“Today a middle class person lives better than a King did 500 years ago. That situation has been created by individuals and not collectives.”
Bit of a contradiction there William.
I can see the voice over now in your documentary on the History of Science (1984 revised edition as taught in The People’s Paradise of Cuba), “Relatively was discovered by the people of Ulm after the chairman of the people’s central equality committee demanded and end to the fascist Newton’s out of date Theory of Gravity.”
You might spell out the bit of a contradiction for me then. I probably didn’t spot it as it’s only a bit.
You’re the one over-simplifying things William. There is only a comfortable middle class certain countries. Who cares about the fact that that small group has things better? I’m talking about the glaring fact that, worldwide, capitalism has not benefited the average man and woman. The rich get richer and the subsistence level that the poor live in widens
In relation to a point I made earlier, if you deny that capitalism has not contributed to the destruction of the environment, eg. the destruction of the rainforest, oil spills, climate change, etc you’re completely delusional.
It is one thing to defend capitalism on the basis that it has resulted in the mass production of consumer goods it is another to deny the disgusting elements in within the system.
As regards the “begrudger” element of your comment; if you’re actually alright with things like the 400 richest Americans having more wealth than the 150 million citizens it would prove that capitalism breeds a callous type of individual with a blinkered+ view of what fairness and equality should mean.
William , the whole trickle down argument simply does not hold water. Wages and conditions for average workers have deteriorated in the last thirty odd years since this idea that tax cuts for the rich will be used to create jobs ,while the rich have gotten ever richer. Sadly a lot of them do sit on the money or invest it in derivatives and other risky financial ‘products’ that have gotten us into the mess we are in now. This should not be the extreme choice of either capitalism or communism as the far right in the states like to present it , but simply a case of a fairer type of capitalism that benefits everyone. I have no problem with anyone being rewarded for their hard work as long as they are paying the same percentage of their earnings as the rest of us. True the rich give to charity, so do I , but nothing near what they would have to pay if taxed at the same rate as workers. Even the American Congress is growing sick of the tax dodging and bigger and bigger profit chasing regardless of the consequences actions of the major corporations. If these people paid a fraction of their fair share there would soon be no deficit to worry about anymore .
Money is just a concept.
The 85 individuals do not eat half the worlds food. They don’t own half the world land. They don’t use half the worlds oil. They don’t have half the worlds weapons. They don’t father half the worlds babies.
People are obsessed about the concept of money. Ok, those 85 people have as much money on paper as the poorest half of the world but that’s about it. They’ll die like the rest of the world.
Jack there’s an even bigger point in there if you elaborate.
Fintan, as I said elsewhere, Communism, where the people own the means of production and from everyone bla bla bla bla……………..has created FAR more destruction than “Capitalism”. You may not be aware the mess the Communists left the USSR countries in.
Equality not possible under capitalism
I’m sure those 85 on that list would beg to differ..
No they wouldn’t. Even the 85 aren’t equal to each other
85? There has to be some way to reduce that number by 50 per cent.
Are you proposing the rich get richer?
civilisation is not possible under equality. Until we get our “star trek” replicators there has to be concentrations of wealth. How exactly would an Intel plant magically appear in the African outback or a high tech medical scanner in North Korea?
Civilisation is not possible under equality? Cuba ranked top 10 in world on both education and healthcare. 78 year life expectancy and that country hasn’t traded with outside world in decades!
Cuba is a fascist dictatorship. 10 years ago three men were executed for trying to escape.
@Kevin If you built me a palace made of gold but put walls around it I am not interested, thats not civilisation, that a farm
Ireland needs to leave the EU,as a small country we are too small to leave ourselves open to the elite of America and Europe,our little country is going to be ripped to shreds over the coming decades.
Cuba made many mistakes of course and still do today but it’s the best example of an equal society. Imagine if America never put on the trade sanction
@kevin, what blind spot do you have that you defend a dictatorship that spends most of its time pointing guns at “its own” people. I hope you are only 18 or 19 and in 2nd year arts in UCD, your views will change when you get out in the real world and raiise a family at some stage ;-)
In Cuba they’re all equal – equally in a prison. You certainly wouldn’t want to be a petrol head and live in Cuba.
Who said there’s anything wrong with inequality? I don’t mind in the slightest that there are people with a bigger yacht than mine :))
Yeah, but inequality tells you nothing about absolute wealth. Maybe you’re better off even if there’s someone else who’s miles better off.
Yeah, but all inequality is corrosive because it tends to give opportunities to some and not to others.
Yeah, but even if you agree with that, you have to propose a better system than capitalism to achieve this, and no one has come up with one.
Yeah, but they haven’t tried properly. All the so-called communist systems were really state capitalism.
Yeah, but that makes the point, doesn’t it? You start with good intentions to create a better system, but communist systems always end up worse.
Yeah, but the current system is absolutely corrupt and anything would be an improvement.
Yeah, but to achieve that you’re going to have to employ repressive measures on a grand scale. I prefer freedom.
Yeah, but you’re in a privileged position to say that. You have more opportunities than the people at the bottom.
Yeah, but that’s immaterial unless you have a system which provides better opportunities.
Continue until the cold death of the sun.
Funny Batista pointed guns and he was subject to an armed revolution? Why isn’t Cuba having another revolution then? Why are Cubans generally happy?
Fidel on the roof
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
@Kevin, you mean except all the ones that risked their lives ESCAPING to the US? or the ones rotting in Cuban jails because they dont agree with something….eh no thanks
Read my comments above. Cuba isn’t perfect but the best example of an equal society if we ever see one
The people of Cuba are happy? How do you know? Why do they keep trying to escape then? How many died trying to escape from East Germany, the home of the Trabant 2 stroke engine car into West Germany the home of BMW and Mercedes? I recommend the movie The Lives of Others, to see what life was like in the People’s Socialist Republic. many people waited decades to get a Trablant BUT they were all equal. All equally p1ssed off I’m sure.
Elephant’s check out http://www.energyelephant.com/
Same energy, just cleaner and greener!
I’m not trying to prove Cuba is best. I’m trying to prove civilisation can survive on equality which I already did with Cuba. Cuba is 1 communist country in a sea of capitalist ones who are not aloud trade with them. Of course this will create many problems. Cuba gives a good example that certain parts of communism work wonders while others don’t so well. Still only 1 example, capitalism has 100s of countries to examine the pros and cons of
I really do hope you’re 18 or 19 years old for your sake
Kevin that is
And you’ll still hear some in the media say that this is some kind of a conspiracy theory.
So that our rich rulers can carry out their work unchecked.
Ohh, sher isn’t our media is owned by these 85.
Why do you (stranger) hope I’m 18/19?
Well done Kevin, you’ve brought the conversation to new lows
Your only input to this thread is hoping I’m young so you can satisfy your belief in your own mind that I’m young and stupid. Grow up and participate or leave
My only input?? Really??
Equality is a load of crap. It basically means living under an oppressive regime where no-one can make a decent living for themselves. Kevin, you don’t study Politics or sociology by any chance do you? The stuff you’re coming out with is the exact same as the left wing propoganda peddled by these departments.
So by that logic everyone in North Korea is happy, since they haven’t had a revolution.
“It is a sad reflection of the state of the rule of law in Cuba, when people are convicted to prison terms not for what they have done but for what they might do.”
Javier Zúñiga, Special Advisor for Amnesty International.
Amnesty International said as it adopted Iván Fernández Depestre a “Prisoner of Conscience”.
The 40 year-old political activist, was arrested on 30 July in the central province of Villa Clara as he peacefully participated in a public event to commemorate the anniversary of the death of Cuban national hero Frank País.
The Cuban Iván Fernández Depestre isn’t very happy. 3 years in jail for nothing whatsoever.
There’s lots wrong with Cuba I know! They jail ALOT of journalists and you must get permission to enter and leave the country. What do you expect when you cut a country off from the world for 60 years?
Lets try imagine for a second if they had no trade sanction, UN membership and were subject to all modern international law and practices for the past 60 years? How different would Cuba be today.
Fidel has failed on alot of fronts but the two positives he will always have is Cuba’s healthcare and education system. It is virtually unrivaled given its cheaper than most in the world.
Amnesty’s take on Guantanamo.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/security-and-human-rights/guantanamo
The United States’ detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have become emblematic of the gross human rights abuses perpetrated by the U.S. Government in the name of fighting terrorism.
At Guantanamo, the U.S. government sought to hold detainees in a place neither U.S. nor international law applied………………..
Approximately 240 inmates still remain in Guantanamo, some of whom are now in their ninth year of detention. These men have been subjected to a wide range of interrogation tactics that constitute ill-treatment, including stress positions, sensory deprivation, prolonged isolation, the use of 20-hour interrogations, hooding during transportation and interrogation, stripping, forcible shaving, and “using detainees individual phobias (such as fear of dogs) to induce stress.”
America as far as I know broke international law to steal Guantanamo from Cuba so look who started it? haha!
Great movie that. Das Leben der Anderen
Why aren’t there more articles on this sick fact on the journal?
You’d think it would bear more importance than running farcical articles trying to falsely inflate the property market or how many minutes you should boil an egg for (or the likes)
Coddler, you are comparing extremely dangerous, violent and mass murdering terrorists with someone who turned up at a commemoration ceremony or someone who just wants to go on holidays to Florida?
Guantanamo Bay should be shut down but there should be some accepted method of dealing with the sort of insane criminals that Islam has thrown up in the last few decades. Sit in the corner for a few minutes and think what your opinion of them and Guantanamo Bay would be if they manage to sneak a Nuclear Bomb into New York. A famous Nobel Laureate and Nuclear Physicist, Steven Weinberg, thinks this is a real risk.
Kevin, you’ve made this claim about Cuba’s Health Care and Education more than once and I’ve already shown you it’s untrue. I’ll summarise again:
Cuba is 39′th in the world in Health Care. The University of Havana is ranked 81st in Latin America alone. There’s ins’t a single Medical School in Cuba even ranked. See full comment above.
Cuba wasn’t cut off from the world for 60 years; it traded extensively with the soviet bloc until the fall of communism & always did trade with other countries. Castro & Guevara started shooting people out of hand from the get-go, and they also found the time & money to interfere militarily in other countries. I suppose that’s the fault of capitalism too.
William,
It’s now known that most of the Guantanamo detainees were innocent. They just happened to be in the wrong place during the America’s imperial economic expansion otherwise known as the’ war on terror’.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0425/300269-guantanamo/
The US held hundreds of inmates who were either totally innocent or low-risk for years and released dozens of high-risk Guantanamo inmates, according to newly leaked classified files.
The new leaks reveal that inmates were held without trial on the basis of often seriously flawed information, such as from mentally ill or otherwise unreliable co-detainees or statements from suspects who had been abused or tortured, The New York Times reported.
The New York Times was among a group of US and European media outlets that also included The Daily Telegraph, NPR, El Pais, Le Monde, Der Spiegel and La Repubblica to receive 779 documents from the whistle-blowing website WikiLeaks.
At least 150 Guantanamo detainees were innocent Afghans or Pakistanis, including drivers, farmers and chefs, according to the Telegraph.
They were rounded up as part of frantic intelligence-gathering in war zones and then detained at the US naval base in southeastern Cuba for years due to mistaken identity or simply for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
It said that overall, US military analysts considered only 220 of all the suspects in the George W Bush-era ‘war on terror’ ever detained at Guantanamo to be dangerous extremists.
Another 380 were deemed to be low-ranking foot soldiers who traveled to Afghanistan or were part of the Taliban, the Telegraph reported.
In dozens of cases, senior US commanders were said to have concluded that there was ‘no reason recorded for transfer’ to Guantanamo Bay.
Not sure what to make of his claim that “The Irish government can tackle inequality by cracking down on financial secrecy and tax dodging”. The implication being that many of these people are that wealthy because they are involved in shady practises. The truth is the system is designed and built for them; there are countless tax loopholes for them to avail of, all of which are perfectly legal, in order to protect their money. They don’t need to do anything illegal or suspect, they buy the politicians and the politicians maintain the status quo.
This assertion in fact is incredibly naive and totally avoids the real issue which is the system itself that has allowed this inequity to develop.
Well said Red Hugh.
Would Jim Clarken CEO of Oxfam like to divulge his salary while he’s talking about wealth imbalance? Sean Quinn was wealthy too, he just borrowed it all. They’ll leave it all after them. You never see a ball hitch on a hearse.
CEO of Oxfam Ireland is on €90,000 presumably + expenses and a pension pot.
“Lady” Stocking CEO of Oxfam in the UK was due to paid £119,560 in 2012/13 – which means that her pay increased by 19 per cent from £100,008 in 2009/10 “which is in the lower quartile of what other large charities paid for their chief executives”.
It’s interesting the Shinners have obviously arrived, more red than green thumbs by stating some facts.
The red thumbs make no sense what so ever to me. William gave a really interesting fact which related to the article. It just shows that maybe people just scroll down clicking the red thumbs without reading.
Jack, Shinners! Lefties aren’t interested in facts, it’s a religion. Completely illogical.
Greed is a disgusting immoral drug.
Greed is what runs this system. We need a new system
Exactly Kevin, and just like the world order changed after WW1 with monarchies falling, being replaced by fascism and communism, same thing is going to happen to the democracy that currently exists in the world. Democracy in itself is not wrong, just the way it is run. Every dog has its day. It only takes an unforeseen event to bring simmering tensions over the boiling point.
Greed is human nature. It’s what drives us. Live with it. Any attempt to change it has created dictatorships, mass murder and stifled innovation. The USA generates more patents and scientific papers than the rest of the world put together.
Agreed Pablo. William works for FG don’t mind the troll
Kevin, every time you make a guess about me you’re wrong. Do you ever get disillusioned or do you not care being wrong all the time? I can’t stand Enda, having said that the coalition are doing a reasonable job considering the mess they were left with, not that I agree with Communism.
It says your employed by FG man
I wonder how many patents those 85 oligarchs have produced?
If blind greed was the primary motivating factor of humanity, we would not exist as a species today. Prehistoric man understood well that he must share the buffalo caught today with the rest of the tribe so that he would receive the same in return during the lean times.
Coddler, yes but those primitive tribes had leaders who had more wives and more trinkets. You hardly think they were socialist then?
Kevin, what does this drivel mean, “It says your employed by FG man”?
Show me the evidence William
Prehistoric tribes were more communist than capitalist. Fact
How is it a fact? What proof is there amongst the little bit of physical evidence that exists from prehistoric times supports the idea that man was more communist than anything else?
Hard to be capitalist when there isn’t any capital.
It’s hard to be anything when you’re barely surviving. Where’s the proof behind this so-called fact?
No money for one. Houses were the same in every community/tribe and the hunters spread food equally between old, young, women and men. Not to mention the gatherers were the main source of food as they had a better success rate and they shared aswell.
Davros is just a talking shop to give yhe super rich ideas on how to get their snouts even more firmly into the trough.
Davros from Skaro, creator of the Daleks?
No wasn’t it Stavros flatley from the x factor years ago?
It’s where Enda goes to proclaim that “Paddy went mad borrowing money”
Equality…. For anyone… is a dillusnial goal… I just doesn’t exist. Now fairness… that’s a whole different debate.
What isn’t fair is lottery of birth. Be the son or daughter of one of the 85 and never lift a finger.
Are you proposing a baby shuffling system?
No highlighting a sad fact of human society where you are born into a divided class system
Sick. No one alive is better than anyone else, we get one chance and the world has limited resources. Greed is going to be humanity’s real downfall into the future.
“Those who did not follow the groupthink enough to make it to “Komsomol” lost access to crucial resources and careers later in life”
Sean, it’s not strictly true or even relevant to say the world has limited resources.
If I buy a 1,000 music downloads for €1 each and you have only 100, have I wasted more of the Earth’s limited resources? There isn’t a limited amount of energy in the world in practical terms. With re-cycling many things have an extended life. The universe is full of minerals and energy. Your comment is as dated as the Victorian Capitalist Philosophy which thought that money had to be taken or stolen from someone else.
The world as envisaged by some of the comments above.
“As much as my family shielded me from their troubles, they couldn’t protect me from factors beyond their control. They couldn’t raise my level of living above theirs. And they certainly couldn’t get me anesthetics for dental visits. Sitting in the gray, sterile corridor for two hours, hearing the sobbing of the kids already in the dental chair as their teeth were drilled without anesthetics, water, or suction, and knowing that your turn was coming — some handled it better than others.
In the local clinic, needles were resterilized and reused. Ambulances took three hours to arrive, if they came at all.
That was our “free” healthcare.
We also lived in a “free” apartment, which was suffocatingly small by American standards, and it took years, if not decades, for an average couple to obtain such a place. Usually, several generations of a family lived under one roof until the government bestowed upon its citizens another gray five- to sixteen-story building that looked just like its gray neighbor and had the same exact green-painted swings in the yard.”
Aleksey
Very good. I remember seeing a documentary about the children in the people’s paradise of the USSR had operations without aesthetics.
“[O]ne per cent of the world’s families now own 46% of its wealth ($110 trillion).”
This is an unfortunate byproduct of capitalism; we should figure out a way to spread the wealth of the superrich once they’re gone. It would give them a reason to be philanthropists — and to divest themselves of their vast wealth on their own. Won’t do them much good from the grave, anyway.
George, do you plan to do the same with your money?
George,would you like our schools to be run om these lines to achieve your dream?
“In grade school, you became an “Octyabronok” (named after the October 1917 revolution) and wore a Lenin-faced star on your lapel. You got a free newspaper, the “Young Leninist.” Later, you became a “Pioneer” and swapped the star for a red tie. After that, you moved on to “Komsomol” (All-Union Leninist Young Communist League). Those who did not follow the groupthink enough to make it to “Komsomol” lost access to crucial resources and careers later in life.”
Aleksey again
I guess that very few Journal commentators have the aspiration or drive to become number 86?
If that’s what drives you then your selfish
why would you want all that money? Why not just live a modest life, and enjoy family/friends/career etc. Money and chasing the elusive pound does not provide overall happiness, I’m no einstein and I’ve figured that out.
Actually this is a bogus report because over the last 50 years wealth equality has been increasing and more people are being lifted out of poverty
Random person without name or picture makes a claim and calls a organisations report bogus.
Where is your evidence?
Hans Rosling, the best stats you’ve ever seen. I keep my identity private because the line of work I’m in requires it. Oxfam have a lot to gain in releasing these reports. Sorry I should clarify that the headline is likely true but the idea that wealth inequality is increasing and is a threat to democracy is not.
No reports or stats . Not even an article. Private troll for hire?
Why don’t you Google the first sentence
Why don’t you stop pretending your right
Good man, now go and look at what I told you
What Hans Rosling says doesn’t make this report bogus.
The IMF, not Oxfam, set inequality as a theme for Davos. OECD have also been pushing the issue for years e.g. Google “Growing risk of inequality and poverty as crisis hits the poor hardest”.
I like Hans Rosling but inequality is more complex than he presents it i.e. it varies within different contexts.
Bro he’s right.
http://www.columbia.edu/~xs23/papers/pdfs/World_Income_Distribution_QJE.pdf
World income distribution has converged over the past number of decades. Within certain counties wealth inequality has increased, however on average it has decreased.
I’m talking about a 50 year period not a 5 year one. It’s ridiculous and misleading to focus on a 5 year blip to justify your claims.
Or just toss a coin to see if the headline is right or wrong. I hope you’re super secret job isn’t a policy making one belly up.
Work for the CIA do you Belly Up?
You expect me to read a 50 pages report David Higgins when you said yourself you will follow the gravy train seen as your on the youth Fine Gael national exec.
Sad to say my brothers already a corrupt fool. He think Irish water has no issues and that fracking is good for business.
I’m not listening to someone who wants great inequality so they can make a quick buck. Q
Also, we are doing well on a number of the Millennium Development Goals but that doesn’t mean the problems are resolved or that we should relax on efforts.
Sorry guys if I don’t take everything I read at face value. I was of the same opinion as you all and then having seen Hans Rosling I went a did more reading myself and found out that actually it wasn’t the case that wealth inequality is increasing. Sorry to burst your bubbles. It’s handy being lazy and looking at headlines that confirm your beliefs.
As per previous discussions Kevin, you’re not much of a fan of facts are you?
Kevin is a sofa socialist who makes everybody else feel guilty for being successful. We can also infer that Kevin is anti-technology and anti-science since his socialist eutopia would prevent both of them due to lack of funding and reward.
I know you aren’t William seen as you claim fracking to be safe.
My full time job, love of science and iPhone disagree with you belly up.
Kevin, I don’t claim it, I wouldn’t have a clue not being a mining engineer. It’s the Scientists and the bodies tasked with overseeing the environment (e.g. EPA) claim it.
EPA have founded to be funded by the natural gas industry. They have also never conducted a life cycle impact study which is necessary to prove the process safe/unsafe. You can’t prove it safe, they can’t prove it safe. Until fitter notice, it’s not safe
Well you’d best change your tune because your love of science and technology would take a severe hammering in your socialist paradise. Why didn’t you buy basic Nokia and donate the rest of the money to a good cause? It’s superfluous to your needs so why have it when others are needy??
Haha! You shudnt be on here debating belly up capitalism is passing you by. If you don’t make your fortune at the expense of others soon you’ll be homeless. Oh wait we got social welfare. SOCIAL welfare belly up. A successful implementation of a socialist ideal.
EPA is an arm of the American Government. The United States Environmental Protection Agency is funded by Congress. So US taxpayers fund it. It’s budget is $8 billion and it employs 16,00 people including many Scientists.
Is this the same EPA as run by Nancy Pelosi ? The same Nancy Pelosi who is known for passing major pieces of legislation without voting on them?
That’s lovely and obvious William but does not address the lack of will to conduct a life cycle impact study to find out if fracking really is safe. Until then it’s not
I agree with social welfare but I wouldn’t say our version of it is successful. Alcoholics spending their dole money on more alcohol makes sh1t of the idea. And no I’m not saying people on the dole are all alcoholics before you straw man me.
Btw Kevin debating online in no way betrays my capitalist ideals (that you have instilled in me apparently) but having an iPhone when other people are in need betrays your socialist ideals in more ways than one.
Kevin you’re going on like a spoiled child who didn’t get what they want give it a rest it’s embrassing
That’s not really an addition to the debate is it? It’s a bit embarrassing coming into a debate just to call someone a child
In communist systems everyone performs poorly in the end.
Except in education and healthcare,… And life expectancy
Read this again
““In grade school, you became an “Octyabronok” (named after the October 1917 revolution) and wore a Lenin-faced star on your lapel. You got a free newspaper, the “Young Leninist.” Later, you became a “Pioneer” and swapped the star for a red tie. After that, you moved on to “Komsomol” (All-Union Leninist Young Communist League). Those who did not follow the groupthink enough to make it to “Komsomol” lost access to crucial resources and careers later in life”
And this
““As much as my family shielded me from their troubles, they couldn’t protect me from factors beyond their control. They couldn’t raise my level of living above theirs. And they certainly couldn’t get me anesthetics for dental visits. Sitting in the gray, sterile corridor for two hours, hearing the sobbing of the kids already in the dental chair as their teeth were drilled without anesthetics, water, or suction, and knowing that your turn was coming — some handled it better than others.
In the local clinic, needles were resterilized and reused. Ambulances took three hours to arrive, if they came at all.
That was our “free” healthcare.”
Lenin. I referred to Cuba in 2014 not pre WW2
Cuba is 39′th in Health Care
as for education, “a system operated entirely by the government. Strong ideological content is present, with the constitution stating that educational and cultural policy is based on Marxist ideology.”
is that what you would call education? Maybe in Orwell’s 1984 it is.
The University of Havana is ranked 81st in Latin America alone. That’s saying something.
There’s ins’t a single Medical School in Cuba even ranked.
You just make stuff up as you go along. Do they teach you that in College? You must be last in your class.
Hey William read these quotes from the UN development report.
Cuba’s education index is equal highest in the world, along with Australia, Finland, Denmark and New Zealand. Cuba’s education index is 0.993 of a possible score of 1. Its adult literacy rate is 99.8% and school enrolments are 100%. Public expenditure on education in Cuba is 14.2% of total government expenditure. This is higher than Australia (13.3%) and the US (13.7%). Cuba tops the world in the ratio of female to male enrolment in primary, secondary and tertiary education, at 121%.
“Gender empowerment measure” is another indicator listed in the report. One element of this indicator is the percentage of seats held by women in parliament.
In Cuba, 43% of parliamentary seats are held by women, the third-highest level in the world. US figure is only 17% Women
Since 2005, Cuba and Venezuela have improved their HDI more than any other countries.
Venezuela has achieved a relatively rapid rise of 5.2% in its HDI between 2000 to 2007.
Inequality is another key development indicator. Australia is one of the most unequal countries in the so called developed world. Of the 20 top-ranking countries in this year’s HDI list, only the US, with an inequality ratio of 15.9, has greater inequality than Australia.
So William communist Cuba and Socialist Venezuela are doing well for themselves besides all of the sanctions from the 200 odd capitalist countries.
Kevin, “In Cuba, 43% of parliamentary seats are held by women”. Cuba doesn’t have a “parliament”, it’s a dictatorship ffs!
I’ve posted stats that show Cuba ranks badly in Health Care and Education. All your stats show is everyone goes to school. How come not one Medical School in Cuba is ranked? It’s 39th in the world’s league when it comes to Health Care. You said in the top 10.
Capitalism huh. Privatise the profits, socialise the losses.
The only way we will truly be equal is if we have nothing together. Equality does not exist because it can’t
There are more than one type of ‘capitalism’, most of you seem to be thinking it is one entity, one process, one methodology. There are useful types of capitalism that grow economy’s and create jobs. The problem is ‘free market capitalism’ which is a political system dressed up as ‘freeing up the market’ and which had caused a lot of the problems we are facing today.
The first few comments framed this entire comment thread with a false equivalency. Everybody after William’s first comment have had to chose between either ‘Communism’ or ‘Capitalism’. This has stifled any real discussion of the subject matter presented in the article.
There are so many problems with this approach, its honestly hard to figure out where to start. Pardon me if any of these are out of order, I’m writing them as I think of them.
The ‘Capitalist’ v ‘Communist’ debate as presented is meaningless. Nobody has bothered to ask what form of Capitalism or Communism is being compared. I almost think William et al are arguing Cold War Capitalism vs Cold War Communism, and them applying this to cover the entire discussion of inequality. This presumes these systems are place today and also that they are applicable, neither of which is true.
There is no example of a true ‘Free Market’ Capitalist system in existence today. The closest one can come to it is Honk Kong, but even that has some regulatory ‘interference’. All of today’s big ‘Capitalist’ nations are running hybrid economies which blend some ‘Socialist’ elements. All modern nations can thus either be said to be more or less Socialist than another, but are unfit to bear the labels for purer systems.
Then we get into inane discussion about USSR vs USA and also a discussion on Cuba. This is another false equivalency. The merits of one government or system have no bearing on the merits of another. People in defense of the inequality issue (who think there is no issue) are stating that any issues created by inequality in the West are okay because they are better than how people are living in other countries who have systems purported to tackle the problem. We should all live with the system as is because, of course, it’s better than Communism. That argument has no merit.
Leaving all that rubbish aside, we can try to get at the real issues. The process by which the ’85′ and their companies are moving to control capital is not based on fair competition, or winning marketshare. It is based on manipulating the market and the entities which regulate the market to achieve dominance. Since Standard Oil was broken up, everybody has realised it’s far more important to have a government buddy, lawmaker, or judge on one’s side than to create the best product. Money put into government lobby to buy votes and create regulatory capture has resulted in a situation in which large multinationals are unaccountable to anyone, anywhere. When they succeed, all their profit goes into the upper management and to the shareholders. When they fail, the people of their economies are asked to shoulder the burden and taxpayer money is used to restore their function. There is nothing ‘free market’ about this behaviour, and it should not be confused as such.
Likewise, in pursuit of profits, these firms are placing significant pressure on the social classes below the wealthy. Under the banners of ‘globalism’ and ‘automation’ what were once middle class jobs have been outsourced to nations with no wage standard, or replaced by machines. As the middle class is ‘hollowed’ out, it forces movement into either the ‘lower class’ or poor or a movement into the upper class. The vast majority then face a nearly impossible battle to move from the poor to the rich social classes. We can see this easily in looking at stagnated wages, the amounts unemployed or underemployed, rising education costs, cutting of social entitlements, and decreased access to credit. On the face of it, the access to opportunities for those looking to become socially mobile is much reduced because they require money that the poor don’t have.
Why is inequality a problem? Because it creates a new sort of feudalism. The rich stay rich, and the poor stay poor. As the gulf between the extremes widens, it gets harder to cross, and I don’t think that is a society that honest people want to inhabit. Not as long as we believe that a person can achieve wealth for themselves with hard work. That presumes a ‘fair system’, but inequality increases, the system becomes proportionally more unfair.
Finally, the word that has not been used in this discussion, and the single greatest force driving inequality is Corruption. Political contributions in exchange for legislative and regulatory access is corruption. Failing to bring to justice those who commit fraud and harm others economically is corruption. Allowing your constituents and countrymen to suffer while you prosper is corruption. Creating a society in which the rules do not apply to the wealthy is a world that is corrupt. Nothing can change until we wipe this corruption out.
To have a discussion about economic systems whilst mass corruption is at play is to ignore the whole problem.
So what your saying in the above PhD thesis for your doctorate in Political BS is that there was no corruption in the USSR :))
I can see what job you’d have had in 1984.
Excellent comment Rob.
They deserve to, hard work pays off
Many have inherited it all
What exactly are you doing to change things, Kevin?
Elaborate what your asking? Change what?
Their money they worked for it, its up to them how they spend it or who inherites it.Don’t like it stop moaning about it and work hard
Not in an unfair system. As inequality increases, access is determined more by wealth. This means those who already have the wealth have the means, but those who don’t can’t get it. Inheritance then begins to be a much more important force to predict social mobility. Likewise the idea that success is a measure of hard work begins to crumble. It’s almost literally stepping backwards in time to previous economic systems.
It’s amazing how irish people think they are experts and know the solutions of the world’s problems when they cant get off their arses and fix their own.
@William Grogan, are you old enough to remember the good old days when Oxfam took 19/6 in the £ for administration ? That’s about 97c in the € .
That’s even worse than the CRC!
Capitalism doesn’t work and the majority will realise it far too late.
William do you have any arguments that are not logical fallacies? Attacking Oxfam ad hominem has no bearing on the report or the conclusions of it. You’ve done this discussion a huge disservice
?
Ah the Journal comment section is buggy and repeated messages I wrote. I was commenting about the exceptional liengths you’ve gone to in this thread to steer the conversation away from an actual discussion of inequality. I’ve counted in your replies, from the beginning, false equivalency, strawman, ad hominem and other fallacies that seriously took away from the discussion.
@William Grogan. This type of politically motivated jealousy and hand wringing Oxfam and others needs to be shown up for what it is, a left wing attempt to implement Agenda 21.
Just because a right wing nut can’t change his mind doesn’t mean he is a lefty
Simply tip the pyramid visually.
85? There has to be a way to reduce that number by 50 per cent.
Again you illustrate the point. Cold War communism has nothing to do with the discussion. It’s a straw man, please look that up. A critique on communism is not a substitute for an argument made on inequality.
Also with your PhD jab you mean to attack my statement by attacking intellectualism, or education? Still worthless.
I smell a troll. Back under the bridge .
William do you have any arguments that are not logical fallacies? Attacking Oxfam ad hominem has no bearing on the report or the conclusions of it. You’ve done this discussion a huge disservice.
“Capitalism”, “communism”… Communism definitely never existed as either social or economic model, “socialism” did, which was not really a socialism after all. Similar with “capitalism”.
A slew of economists (including Bernanke and the likes) came out saying that modern version of “capitalism” isn’t capitalism based on free market and fair competition. Market is rigged, so is competition. And – voila – 85 people accumulate a large fortune.
I am not against rich – I am for fair game that capitalism seems to be all about. In theory.
Get a room
Like this one described by Aleksey
“The walls in Soviet apartments were poorly insulated from noise and cold. Therefore, wall carpets were dominant in Soviet culture. They all looked similar, usually colored red with abstract, curving patterns.”
Here’s a tale about Oxfam America which involves superheroes so it should suit some of out commentators
http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/09/heroes-for-hope-and-why-i-dont-like.html
That’s an incredible piece. The only comment I’ll make is that I hope the Midas character was an exception to Oxfam’s staff.
William do you have any arguments that are not logical fallacies? Attacking Oxfam ad hominem has no bearing on the report or the conclusions of it. You’ve done this discussion a huge disservice.
What ever is action necessary to rectify this situation,( no matter how brutal )should be taken without delay
Wanted, tumbrel drivers [HGV] and guillotine operatives
Who is no. 1. Bet he controls the world
BTW someone mentioned to race into space and it is worth mentioning that those of us who were around an the time and who had no wiki and google to misinform us all were aware of one simple fact on how the USSR got into space first. They had bigger rockets. At the end of WW2 when both side were grabbing German scientists and engineers the West got the small sophisticated rocket specialists and the Russians got the big crude specialists, so there,size matters.
Wolves of walls street.
have your say