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FIANNA FÁIL LEADER Micheál Martin has denied that he has fallen out of line with the views of his party after he voiced his support for the repeal of the Eighth Amendment.
In the Dáil yesterday, Martin said that he had changed his mind on the issue and now believes the Eighth Amendment has caused “real damage to Irish women“.
His party’s Ard Fheis last year voted in favour of retaining the Eighth Amendment and a majority of the party’s TDs are also believed to be of that view.
But speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, Martin said individual members of the parliamentary party are allowed make their own decision on the issue and that he was expressing his view.
“I fundamentally don’t believe it’s a party-political issue and since 2003 the parliamentary party has been very clear that this is a matter of individual conscience. I speak as an individual here, I’m conscious I’m leader of the party, but this isn’t a party view, it’s a view that Micheál Martin has articulated in a Dáil debate on this issue.”
At last week’s parliamentary party meeting, many members thanked the party for the fact that they had a free vote, that they had the right to vote and behave in accordance with their conscience.
“Since I made my statement I’ve been taken aback by the responses of many women within the party who may have been silent up to now but who just wanted to say thank you for what you said. Others have disagreed and others will have different views,” he added.
Martin said that he came to his conclusion based after reviewing the evidence presented to the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment.
He also said that he feels repeal is necessary to deal with women being denied terminations in cases of fatal foetal abnormality.
I don’t see any way fatal foetal abnormality could be dealt with without the repeal of Article 40.3.3. I met with women over two years ago who left a deep impression on me who had to travel to England to have a termination in a situation where they had a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality.It’s something that I couldn’t live with as a legislator, to continue to force women in that situation in the future to go through similar experiences.
Martin said that during the referendum campaign he will outline his view when it is sought but that he doesn’t envisage that politicians will be at the forefront of the debate.
I have no plans to be engaging in any kind of public debate with members of the party, it’s not going to be that kind of campaign. And I think the public will make up their mind, the Irish people will decide.
“This is a very deep and personal question for each citizen, I don’t necessarily believe they are going to be directed by politicians. I think they will make up their own mind in accordance with their own beliefs and life experiences.”
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Judging by his former position I would say that he is out of step with his own conscience.
@Johnny Bellew: On the contrary, he came across genuinely as though he’s changed his views on it all, having thought long hard about it, sounds almost honest. I couldn’t believe it myself.
@Johnny Bellew: Do you really think he has a conscience?? He was part of the government that sold us all down the river—note his total lack of conscience when it comes to the homeless and those living in poverty.
@Jim O’Sullivan: His Party advisors and PR men must have been working mirnung , noon and night on his little speech yesterday because we’ve heard absolutely nothing from FF on the scandalous situation in the health service so far this winter.. You’d never think they were propping up this sgam of a Government..
@Johnny Bellew: he’s been out of step with his own mind for years, it’s a severe case of flip-flop syndrome……..
@Johnny Bellew: The problem with religious zealots is that they can never change their mind on anything, essentially zombies for the church to milk dry. When the facts are read, all becomes clear, more time spent reading medical evidence and less time at prayer group would ensure a better situation for all concerned.
@Johnny Bellew: don’t think he has a conscience, he’s simply going with what ever way does him best in an election!
@Alt Right Crybaby: Why would any religious person change their mind about the Truth? That doesn’t make any sense.
@Jim O’Sullivan: The truth is there is an election pending and he is depending on the female vote.He has been sitting on the wall too long and now he expects people are going to vote in favour of Fianna Fail..Well he is in for a disaster.Where have all the TDs been since the last gen eral election there are like miles men on a railway track.Nothing about the homeless or people loosing their homes the hospital waiting lists the cost of living it goes up at every turn but wages are at a standstill.the nurses and junior doctors who qualify only to leave and go elseware.There seems to be money for the TDs but nothing for services that are bursting at the seams.Its time all you TDs got down to working for those who put their trust in you ie THE PEOPLE
To those that have trouble with his change of mind.
IMHO, he can only be commended for considering the facts and having the ability to have a change if heart.
The inability to change your mind displays a closed one.
@Johnny Bellew: can’t beat the Irish know alls
This is all Irish politicians do these days. They see what way the wind is blowing and they say whatever they have to to get votes. No backbone, no conscience, no leadership, just snakes.
@Dan:
When was it ever otherwise?
@Dan: it is especially disturbing the ease with which he is willing to discard the wishes of the party membership.
@Dan: Surely “seeing what way the wind is blowing” means acquiescing to the wishes of the people who elected you?
@Dan: well unborn babies can’t vote for Michael. Might have a point. New socks would help.
@Steve B: That’s exactly what it means Steve and it’s not what he’s there to do.
He’s here to do what he thinks his best. Not what the public thinks is best.
@Dan: Well done Michael Martin. A person who took the time and effort to read the citizens assembly and oireachtas reports. I think if people gave full consideration they would change their views. I heard the FF spokesperson on Justice speaking last evening. Totally against repealing the 8th. He stated that we should stand by our daughters if they got pregnant. I wonder if his daughter got raped and wanted a termination would he stand by her, total hypocrite
@Dan: absolutely true. But at least he has lucked a side. I doubt the biggest snake of them all will do that.
@Dan: these days , Dan…. ? Was it ever different .
He may not be out of step with his own party but he’s definitely out of step with the Catholic majority on this island and he will most certainly pay the price.
Probably a good idea to throw his hat into the presidential race at this stage because one thing’s for sure:
Michael Martin will never ever be leading this country as taoiseach after this.
@FrankDapavia: The “catholic majority” must go awol every time a poll is taken on this subject as polls consistently show a significant majority in favor of repeal.
@FrankDapavia: How many people do you know who go to mass, and why, if they all didn’t want same sex marriage, in that case, did the island vote yes? I think you may be surprised that he has actually gauged the nations’ feelings on this and gone with them, and he will win votes for it. I commend his delivery on that interview, he did very well. I am not a FF voter, but he came across well as an individual.
@Ricky Spanish:
Micheál’s made his bed and now he can lie in it.
@FrankDapavia: catholic majority? Not sure the majority would disagree with him
@FrankDapavia: The catholic majority that voted SSM? That majority? Or some other one?
@FrankDapavia: where are you living? Roscommon?
@FrankDapavia: The same Catholic majority who passed the SSM referendum, despite priests urging Catholics not to?
@FrankDapavia: I was born catholic, but do not take instruction from the Church or attend mass, we are in the majority not the catholic extremes.
@FrankDapavia: Religion needs to be taken out of this debate. It is illogical and irrational, and blocks the people’s path to critical thinking. This is a medical issue, not a religious issue or a government issue. Stop with the religious rhetoric. Unless of course you like announcing to the world that you suffer from religion induced mental illness…which is what all religion is.
@FrankDapavia: Only around 20% of the population are actual practicing Catholics who go to mass every week.
@FrankDapavia: apart from.a few zealots Ireland is a land of a la carte cultural catholics
@FrankDapavia: Catholic majority, lol. The Church is dead on its feet, fast on the way to becoming a rump congregation. They’re struggling to fill churches, struggling to find priests, compared to their heyday decades ago. And it’s no more than the church deserves.
@FrankDapavia:
As people advance in years, and stay tuned in to social, cultural and economic changes affecting lives of younger generations, they generally soften on previously held rigid views.
Ones with empathy, compassion and understanding on these matters, such as abortion, conclude future is not about them, but about their children, grandchildren, and future generations. So let’s try make our country a better place before we move on!
What Micheal Martin is probably saying, with his new stance to repeal the 8th, is, let’s do what’s right, not play more political football on the issue.
For that reason alone, he deserves to be next Taoiseach.
You must admit, it’s a bit ridiculous in 2018 SSM being legal, and still having nearly 4 k woman traveling abroad for abortions each yr.
@Patty Cullinane: how would you explain #athiests for the 8th so fair play to them they have MORALS
@FrankDapavia: frank, if I hear your Catholic Majority talking about the right of the unborn child I’ll throw up. The Catholic Church , and the congregation hadn’t much regard for the children that were actually born , since the foundation of the state, or their mothers, it’s a bit rich to be taking the role of the saviour of the unborn now, with their track record .
@FrankDapavia: I beg to differ, its the church and Iona ‘institute’ that is out of kilter with reality.
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: easy. If they’d are basing their opinion on critical thinking, then more power to them. I just happen to disagree with them. Oh…and you can stop playing the self righteous, moral high ground record anytime. Abortion/ terminating a pregnancy is a medical issue between doctor and patient. It is not a moral for you to decide, or a religious isssue for any church to decide, or government issue for them to decide. It is an issue for a patient to decide…freely, without the fear of prosecution, or at the least…without having to travel away from home for medical care, like some sort of criminal.
He is absolutely out of touch with the base of the party. I hope members are working on his ouster as we speak if Fianna Fail is to have any future it cannot be with Martin “leading”.
@William Bright: well that was true from day one. The old guard had to go long ago
@Dave O Keeffe: he cannot continue to lead a party he is so at odds with on such a critical issue as this.
@William Bright: They will be waiting in the long grass for him, no doubt about it.
@William Bright: He made it very clear that it isn’t an issue for group conscience therefore it’s moot in regards to a party policy, it’s for the individual to decide upon, so these points are not at odds, they’re not a party matter.
@William Bright: FF only care about one thing…Power. You are naive if you think otherwise. The party will drop him as leader if he performs badly at the next election. Some may moan and complain in private about his views on the 8th amendment but ultimately they will do nothing.
@William Bright:
this is not a party issue
@William Bright: its an open vote
@ktsiwot: It may be an open vote but I heard liberals such as Ruth Coppinger calling on the main party leaders to show leadership. And make no mistake, the FF grassroots will remember this moment.
@Johnny Bellew: Politicians are elected by the people so it is only fair that every politician should state a position, especially on this issue where it is a an open vote and the whip is not in place.
@Bortoli: He was elected by the party based on his then views and values. These, such as they were, have now changed, he should do the honorable thing and ask the party to confirm his mandate in light of his new changed position..
@Jim O’Sullivan: In that case I applaud him for having the balls to express his own individual views and not toe the party line Jim.
@Bortoli: but has he the integrity to admit that he misled his party members when seeking their votes for the leadership? Whatever about “balls”, he would display some honesty if he now arranged for another vote with his new found “wisdom” known to all.
@Jim O’Sullivan:
Repealing the 8th has far more support among the FF grassroots than the parliamentary party thinks. I’ve been a member of the party and Ogra before it for almost 20 years, I don’t know any member of the local cumann (rural I might add) under 50 and not in favor of repeal.
Among the general population at referendum, it will depend on turnout. If turnout is high we could see a double digit margin in favor of repeal.
I’ve never been a fan of Micheál Martin, he’s always been more of an opportunist and self-promoter than even his fellows on the front bench.
But, I’ll give him this, he knows the way the wind is blowing on this one. And in trying to avoid any position on reproductive rights becoming a litmus-test for supporting or voting for FF candidates he may just have saved the party damage to it’s future electoral prospects. Especially among younger voters.
If anything he has shown a more progressive side of FF, not by his stance but by making it an open vote rather than a party line.
@Dave O Keeffe: there’s noting “progressive” about killing an unborn child.
@Brian Lenehan: *nothing*
@Brian Lenehan:
read the reports from the citizens assembly and oireachtas report
@Brian Lenehan: no such medical term as an “unborn child” .
Maybe you should start your own political party,or join one…? oh wait..you did try that..lols
@Havana na na na: No it hasn’t. I don’t think this is a ploy. His leadership of FF is in danger now. 80% of Are Feis delegates voted to save the 8th
@Brian Lenehan: what child is being killed? At 12 weeks the foetus is the size of a plum and weights about 14 grammes
@Brian Lenehan: read my comment again, I made no statement for or against his stance in the issue
@Dave O Keeffe: just because you label something as progression doesn’t mean it’s right. In Stalinist Russia progression would have meant the interment of dissenters in gulags.
Progression isn’t a good thing if you’re progressing down the wrong path.
@Sean Barry: yeah, the pro lifers won’t do any research or even consider trying to empathise with women. Don’t want to think – can’t tolerate that.
@Brian Lenehan: or raping and selling a born one ?
@Patric Cooney: read my comment again, I made no statement either way on the issue of the 8th amendment, I merely said that allowing an open vote for party members was progress
@Dave O Keeffe: true, I misread it. I agree though, this shouldn’t be a party issue but an individual one.
Look I’m against abortion except in medical cases but I strongly believe in a person right of choice. So its simple for me if ever the wife and myself are in the situation that an abortion is an option we wouldn’t pick it unless in the medical case, that’s our decision and we will live with that as its our choice.
I don’t believe any government or religion has the right to make life changing decisions like this upon a person.
@B9xiRspG: a reasonable comment on the journal?!!
@B9xiRspG:
When he was Health Minister dead baby body parts were being sold without parents consent.
Check it out on google for confirmation.
@B9xiRspG: well said, I’m much the same.
@B9xiRspG: Your own personal views don’t matter then, if you’re saying it’s down to everyone’s individual views, we don’t need to know under what circumstances you won’t judge a woman who makes a decision for her own life.
You can be a Christian, against abortion and still believe the 8th doesn’t belong in the Irish constitution. I do not see any opposition here.
@Mick Tobin: no you cannot. Defending the right to life is a litmus test for true Christians.
@William Bright: It’s not that simple an argument, I believe you probably know this.
@Mick Tobin: It certainly is anti-Christian. Removal of the 8th will leave the lives of the innocents in the hands of fickle legislators (like flip-flopper Micheál Martin)
@Johnny Bellew: what did the 8th Amendment do for the innocent Malak Kuzbary Thawley?
@Johnny Bellew: Abortion will still be illegal if it’s repealed.. But you already knew that too.
@William Bright: then how about defending the rights of the lives that already exist outside the womb? Take that litmus test. Because from what I observe, I don’t see a whole lot of anyone, including our politicians, passing that test.
@Johnny Bellew: I’d suggest it’s morally reprehensible to force a woman to full term with a child that has no chance of surviving and will only know pain for the short time it manages to live.What’s Christian about forcing that mental anguish on a woman/family and that needless suffering on an infant?
@Michael Hennessy: if it is a mental health issue the legislation that is there already covers it do you remember ‘the protection of life during pregnancy Bill’.That name was a JOKE more media spin was it protecting the babies life.
@William Bright:you sound extreme and mad from the couple posts I have read from you in last couple of days you remind me of the nuts who support and enforce sharia law.
@Havana na na na: absolutely nothing , as it had absolutely nothing to do with it!
@Patricia Ellis Dunne: did the husband look up online for a treatment for ectopic pregnancy and read that it could be treated with certain medicine ?
Could those medicines not be taken due to a ‘foetal heartbeat’ ?
did you say that the 8th amendment had absolutely nothing to do with it?
@MichaelandMary O’Grady: I don’t know if you’re deliberately conflating the issue or if you just misunderstood the point but I’m not talking about a mentally ill person.Im talking about the deep suffering that comes with being forced against ones will to carry a child to term in the circumstances I described.
@Johnny Bellew: The fact is Irish women are going abroad for abortion. And it doesn’t matter if abortion is available in Ireland, or the UK, women will avail of it, as the need for whatever reason arises.
What there isn’t available for women in Ireland is the treatment necessary so women can avoid the needless death that many have suffered when pregnancy complications arise. The 8th amendment restricts the treatment that’s available to women. Repealing the 8th will remove the restrictions and an end to the unnecessary deaths. Further, it will give women the right to choose what is best for them in their circumstances. You either have respect for women and value them as human beings, or you don’t.
I don’t trust him , I consider he one of the most slippery , cute hoors of the Dail. What are his motives ?
I wouldn’t trust Mehole to mind a mars bar for me.. he deserves an Oscar for that performance in the Dail trying to sound &look all concerned & passionate. he’d do anything to have Leo’s seat in the dail chamber & that big mic in front of him
@Dean Anderson:
so sad
Imagine sharing a fox-hole with this flip-flopper—he’d sell his granny out to get the top job.
@Jim O’Sullivan: I have to laugh at your comment. Why? Does a politician have to retain the same ideas and views from the time he enters politics until the day he or she dies? Is that what you call a progressive thinker? Someone who doesn’t asses things as they change and views as they change – we would all still be barefooted if that was the case.
@Bortoli: Take a look at his comments on the issue over many decades, they were clear, emphatic in fact. Are we to believe that his thinking capacity is such that he does not assess his conclusions on an on going basis. He has changed in the twinkling of an eye—or should that be “because high office beckons”? If nothing else, he is the shallowest of the shallow.
@Jim O’Sullivan: He read the facts, like many others who have changed their mind recently, facts kill your religious dogma every time, if everyone studied the facts there would be no Catholic Church in this country.
@Alt Right Crybaby: What has the catholic church got to do with my comment? The “facts” you refer to have been known for decades, there is nothing new in the recent discourse on this issue. The point is Martin “changed” his mind because he feared being out-flanked by Sinn Fein.
@Jim O’Sullivan: ridiculous argument…. the ability to change ones mind, shows a open one.
@paddlingAlong: It is not an argument. All the “facts” we have been exposed to in recent times have been part and parcel of this incessant conversation for decades. All would have been well know to Martin when he was a fervent pro-lifer. Hios “change of mind” is nothing but self-serving.
Does Mehole ever talk without using the word Fundamental Fundamentally?
@Willy Malone: It is fundamental to his manner of speak.
I thought the Citizens Assembly was a way for FG to kick the can down the road on this issue and maybe it was but it’s turned out to be incredibly important.Micheal Martin is just one of many who needed their eyes opened to the realities of abortion in this country and when the Assembly has played a huge role in that.As with the Marriage Equality referendum the usual suspects will run a nasty and disingenuous campaign but all they’ll succeed in doing with their disgusting behaviour is bringing distress to women and families who’ve already suffered more than they should have.
@Michael Hennessy: This country has been deprived of a real conversation on abortion for too long, the Irish people have been fed lie after lie that has gone unchallenged in mainstream media. I too thought the Citizens Assembly was a kicking the can down the road exercise but I’m so glad to be wrong, they and the 8th Committee have done us real service. But lets not forget that this all came about because of a brave grassroots campaign that brought thousands onto the streets and even though we were called ‘shrill’ and ‘aggressive’ and had to do it with nothing like the resources backing the pro life campaign, we were heard eventually. A long way to go still, as you say, the campaign is going to have some unpleasantness. They won’t go without a fight but I trust the Irish people to do the right thing.
Some of the “pro Life” guys on here.Guys who are Trump fans,are now giving out about Michael for ‘flip flopping’ ..hahahahaha
This took real political courage and can only be commended. His speech was incisive and explicit which is important because he’s going to have to back up this position to his party members to the hilt. And while it might have wrong-footed Leo, it also gives him breathing room. At last the women of Ireland are being heard.
@Bessie Burgess: This decision will cost him his leadership . Another one willing to back peddle
@Alan Scott: Possibly, possibly not. Martin’s been around, he’s a very skilled politician. It’s striking how many of our representatives have changed their minds in a very short space of time.
@Bessie Burgess: If you really believe what Martin said god help you. He is a slieveen who would say anything to get into power.
@Derek Poutch: Of course I believe it, it’s not about his sincerity – I don’t know how sincere he is or isn’t – it’s about the political decision to back repeal. It means he will support the referendum, the rest is irrelevant to me, I always assume a politician wants to get into power.
@Bessie Burgess: I had to read M Martin’s speech again where he changed his mind on how to vote He did mention the mother but never once did he mention a baby . Surely he is lacking compassion here . He has burned his bridges FF may start digging for a new leader .
@Alan Scott: He agrees with the 12 week limit. We’re not talking about babies.
@Alan Scott: What baby? When talking about 12 or 24 week limited terminations we’re talking about an embryo and a fetus.
An embryo is no more a baby than an acorn is an oak tree.
To say otherwise is either ignorance or dishonesty.
Would you like to address which camp you fall into?
Heck for the first two weeks we’re talking about a ball of undifferentiated cells.
30-50% of all fertilised embryos either self terminate early or miscarry.
Up to 12 weeks, 2% per week of all embryos terminate naturally.
In most cases due to chromosomal abnormalities.
Frankly repealing the 8th has far more support among the FF grassroots than the parliamentary party thinks. I’ve been a member of the party and Ogra before it for almost 20 years, I don’t know any member of the local cumann (rural I might add) under 50 and not in favor of repeal.
To kill or not to kill, that is the question.
Charlie H, Bertie (Rat in the Anorak) ,Albert R, Cowen ,they were the best crooks in the business and he was a minister with them. The movie Ocean 11 were only amateurs up to these guys.
Well done Michael Martin. A person who took the time and effort to read the citizens assembly and oireachtas reports. I think if people gave full consideration they would change their views. I heard the FF spokesperson on Justice speaking last evening. Totally against repealing the 8th. He stated that we should stand by our daughters if they got pregnant. I wonder if his daughter got raped and wanted a termination would he stand by her, total hypocrite
Martin is fighting for his political life ,varadkar has made him look completely non scene ,for political advantage he has just sold his sold to the devil and created more division in fianna fail ,his career is coming slowly to an end .he should have been ditched years ago .
Well done Michael, its good to see a politician, consider an issue and be prepared to change their mind.
Hopefully after the referendum my daughters will have a safer future ahead, where centuries old dogma doesn’t get in the way if their health care.
On the down side, we’ve months of that nasty Steen one from the Iona ‘institute’ to put up with.
Not interested in politicians’ morals or conscience, they’re there to do their job. He’s dead right, I was pro life until I thought through every scenario. I don’t think any pro life supporters have thought it through. They never have an answer for the woman’s rights, only ‘the baby’. Only commenting and judging behaviour based on hypotheses and willing to ignore these women again while voting for legislation to punish them. Truth is they don’t get involved with helping anyone or think about kids or women. Just there to not like, vote and carry on. Not their problem, is it?
Martin knows the end of the road is coming for him,desperation to grab votes this is.wouldnt believe a word from him..
Plenty of time to change his mind again, and again and again.
@Adam Reid: and you think there is some thing wrong with considering facts and having a change if mind?..?
@paddlingAlong: ?..?, is this alienspeak?
@Adam Reid: didn’t think so. Point proven as soon as you played the man.
I’ll never forget the bank guarantee and the noose handed to the Irish people by the likes of that skut MM
Always hard to debate with yourself
Only out of step with the country
Only one thing I can say regarding M Martin I am very disapointed in his stance. This will come back as a kick in the ass Especially what he has been through in his own personal life.
@Alan Scott: I think bringing his personal tragedies into this is about as low as you can get but I’m not surprised. This won’t come back as a kick in the ass.. If there is repeal I will vote fianna Fáil. I have never done so in my life. If this move is anything to go by, they may be moving forward.
@Alan Scott:
you horrible person
@Alan Scott: Disgusting comments but sadly it’s typical of what we’re going to have to put up with leading up to this referendum.
Micheál Martin Look what you have done, you have awakened
Ireland’s Taliban ( catholic zealots ) they have now come out from
under their rocks to make sure that there is no change to the
8th Amendment in order for them to say there is no “Abortion in Ireland ”
I’m waiting for a sign / that the people see their lies / and we will rise / ’cause you might stop a single man / but you can’t stop the tide
have your say