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A SECOND PERSON has spoken of being refused a Public Services Card (PSC) due to the fact that they are adopted.
The 50-year-old woman from the midlands attended, as requested, an appointment to register for a PSC at an Intreo centre in her nearest town in mid December.
As in the case of a 48-year-old man who spoke to TheJournal.ie last November, the woman presented her passport at that appointment, only to be told that her record of birth could not be determined on the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection’s (DEASP) system.
The woman’s story differs from last November’s instance in that she has been in contact with her birth mother, and her children are aware that she is adopted – neither are the case with the man we previously spoke to.
At her registration meeting, when she had volunteered that she is an adopted person, the woman was informed that in order to fully register for the card it would be necessary for her to present an adoption certificate. The requirement for same is listed on the back of the invitation to attend for a PSC – however the woman hadn’t noticed this stipulation.
“At the end of the day it was just pure humiliation, having your adoption aired in public like that” the woman told TheJournal.ie.
“The whole thing has brought back a lot of emotions I haven’t had to deal with in a long time.”
I really think this is the highest form of discrimination – they make an appointment for someone and they then drag up a whole grave’s worth of stuff.
The woman says she cannot understand why her passport is considered sufficient proof of identity to travel to other countries, but yet is not deemed worthy enough for her to register for a PSC.
“I started off having a great day, and then the whole bottom fell out of my world,” she says of the experience at the Intreo centre.
I just burst out crying. The girl was very official but there wasn’t any empathy for the situation.
Data protection
The PSC has been causing controversy from a data protection point of view for almost a year.
In April 2017 it was revealed that the government plans to expand its usage, which had heretofore been limited to accessing social welfare jobseekers’ payments, to becoming a prerequisite for those seeking a driver theory test, or renewing a passport. It has likewise now been expanded as a requirement for accessing all welfare services (which led to DEASP Minister Regina Doherty to infamously describe the card as being ‘mandatory but not compulsory’).
The legislative basis, or lack thereof, for these moves has been heavily disputed.
In this case, the woman renewed her passport as recently as 2013, so the immediate need for a PSC to renew that document does not exist.
“Am I going to get a card? No, I don’t need it. I’m not on social welfare,” she says.
I’ll come back if I have to by law, and not before. They asked me to take the photo anyway but I didn’t see why I should. What would be the point?
The woman claims she consulted the Adoption Authority of Ireland (AAI) regarding her predicament, with a representative telling her there is “uproar going on over this situation” at the moment.
A request for comment from the AAI had not been returned at the time of publication.
Adoption certificates, meanwhile, can be applied for here, at a cost of €40 apiece.
Previously, DEASP told another citizen that the reason for an applicant having to produce an adoption certificate upon registration is that the department had all records from the General Register Office (GRO) of births, adoptions, and deaths transferred to it from the Department of Health in 2008.
“It is through the Public Services Card process that the department is confirming and updating the birth/adoption information held on our IT systems with the record from GRO,” a previous response issued by DEASP to that person reads.
In response to a query from TheJournal.ie regarding the woman in the midlands’ situation, the department said that it does not have access to the Irish Adoption Register “for clear reasons of data protection, confidentiality and privacy” (the only body with access to the index which links a person’s birth and adoptive identities is the AAI).
Adoption register
However, an adoption certificate does not detail a person’s birth or birth mother’s identities – so the manner in which it is being used to ‘fill in the gaps’ remains unclear. Likewise, an adopted person’s short-form birth certificate details information extracted from the adoption register – but is not deemed acceptable by DEASP with regards to PSC registration.
The department also consistently cites its SAFE2 (Standard Authentication Framework Environment) verification standard as the reason for requiring an adoption cert – however SAFE2 is a construct of the Irish government – it is not an international verification standard.
“Adopted people are treated in the same way as other individuals in terms of the verification of their identity,” a department spokesperson said. “The department endeavours to handle all cases with due sensitivity and care.”
However the SAFE registration process requires the same identity verification for adopted and non-adopted individuals.
As a follow-on from the two situations TheJournal.ie has now covered, we requested of DEASP the number of adopted people who have registered for a PSC with an adoption cert, together with the number of such people who had been denied a card due to their refusal to produce, or obtain, such a cert.
The department replied that such statistics, in both cases, “are not available”.
The 48-year-old man TheJournal.ie previously spoke to regarding his own issue, which saw him denied a PSC in July 2017 due to a refusal to obtain an adoption cert, has meanwhile been continuing to write to Social Protection calling for a PSC to be issued to him.
He also took his case to the Office of the Ombudsman, which has acknowledged that it is currently attempting to resolve the impasse between him and DEASP.
“Someone is going to have their life ruined because of this,” he now says. “It’s that serious.”
The man says he understands “the need” for the PSC in order to prevent fraud, but repeats his assertion that someone who does not know they are adopted may end up finding out via the PSC registration process.
“Think about that. How would that make you feel? Think of your own family life, and then you’re applying for something, which they asked you to register for remember, and out of the blue you find out that you’re not who you thought you are.”
Radio adverts
You’re looking at something where a government ends up having to apologise to people because they’ve found out the people they thought are their parents aren’t and something has gone badly wrong.
“What caught in my craw was the ads on the radio recently which talked about how easy it is to apply for a card. That certainly hasn’t been my experience.”
“If you’ve got a situation where someone is sent home to talk to their parents who had no prior knowledge of their status, that is an appalling situation,” says Susan Lohan of the Adoption Rights Alliance (ARA) regarding the PSC situation.
You could solve this of course by giving DEASP access to the adoption authority’s records. But then you’d have people on the streets protesting. Because why should some random civil servant know more about your data and your family situation than you know yourself?
DEASP recently acknowledged, meanwhile, that the target of issuing three million PSCs by end 2017 had been met.
The department had been in a race against time to fulfil that figure in order to meet a contract agreed with the card’s producer, Biometric Card Services, that if that number of cards hadn’t been issued the full amount due for the three million units would fall liable.
Currently there are between 90,000 and 100,000 adopted people in Ireland, the vast majority of them Irish-born. It’s estimated that roughly 40% of that number would be unaware that they’re adopted.
It has been impossible for adopted people to access their own birth information since 1952 – with a sustained lobbying action on the part of adoptive parents of the time seeing the law changed to respect their wishes on the matter foremost.
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Totally mystified.My son and I are both UK citizens who obtained cards on production of U.K. passports no questions asked.Must be utterly bewildering for an Irish citizen to be refused.I thought British bureaucracy was world class but this is Olympic Gold Medal standard.
@Anthony newey: Hold your horses , I just reread the headline .
It was a woman who was refused , keep your male privilege to yourself .
@Anthony newey: yeah same here – got a card and just had to show my passport. Odd…
@Ken Hayden: woah your male privilege is showing right there! Don’t @ me.
@Anthony newey: Adoption certs cost less than €20 and can be ordered online at the HSE website and delivered to your door in a couple of days. I have no idea where that €40 price in the article comes from. Complete fantasy.
@Deborah Behan: White Irish male privilege , that’s the worst kind .
We’re ridiculed for our pasty white skin , but we refuse to have fake spray tan ,
to avoid any self imposed ‘humiliation’ wouldnt it be better to just follow the correct procedures
@Paul J. Redmond: There’s a company who come up first on a Google search for birth certs which can be mistaken for the real one. They charge €40 each. Got caught by it myself last year. Asked in Lombard St office about it and they said a lot of people mistake it for their website. I’d imagine this may be the reason for the €40 in the article.
@Paul J. Redmond: it helps to press on the link provided where the cert is €40, they practically drew you a map.
@Anthony newey: Why are two Brits getting Irish PSC cards?
@Anthony newey: she mentioned to the person processing the card she was adopted and on the letter it states those adopted need a form. She didn’t read the instructions and didn’t have the right documents with her.
“ Oh I need that form oh sorry I didn’t read the letter, I’ll pop back in next week with it” should be the correct response. Not a social media look at me a lot victim rant
@Chris Mc: my point is that the adoption issue was never mentioned to us.We just made an appointment ,turned up and that was it.Either my son or I could have been adopted and they would know no different.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: to pay tax etc
@Anthony newey: I should clarify.Adoption may be mentioned somewhere on the website but when you attend the appointment they do not ask or check at all.Since they do not take details of mother / father etc there is no way they can check birth records with UK authorities so they just rely on your passport .If they can rely on your passport for non-Irish citizens why can they not do the same for Irish citizens ?
@Dave O Keeffe: http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/1/bdm/Certificates/
20 euro from the official site..journal put in link to a scalper.
@Anthony newey: well said
@Anthony newey: but they do electronically verify with online birthcerts..hats where the problem arises as they cant access adoption records…so yours would check out mine wouldnt
So, the complaint is that someone turned up without the required documents, having not bothered to read the instructions, and then feels humiliated? The embarrassment should be about being too thick to understand the requirements. (whether said documents should be needed is a different question entirely)
@George Salter: person does not read instructions..does not bring required documents…says they are embarrassed.. then goes to national media..for what? To ensure more embarrassment?..read instructions.
@Minionator: That’s what I said. Are you disagreeing or agreeing?
This is a smoke and mirrors story with a simple explanation…..those born and raised with their natural parents have access to their original birthcert, these are available online for the psc staff to verify and crosscheck, they do this by using your passport and referencing your DOB. An adopted persons birth cert(adoption cert) is not available online to the psc staff so they require a copy of it to cross reference. Most adopted people I know have their adoption cert as it is required for all the same things you would need your birth cert for. So if this person had read the document properly it would have explained all that ahead of time no need for the drama. I went through this myself exactly the same way and didn’t read the instructions so had to get my adoption cert which can be done online for small money
@Adrian Mckenna: 20 euro online for an adoption cert
@Adrian Mckenna: actually only €1 if they fill out a form saying they are requesting it.
However I bought my adoption cert to get the card but was told to apply for a new one as the very end of mine appears to be faded. Grand. No bother. Requested it off the Irish government as it was an Irish document only to be told as I was adopted abroad that I’d have to go through my birth country to get one. However at the time of my adoption there was some upset and several changes of government and even now it’s not a particularly stable country and I have none of the language in order to acquire one.
@Adrian Mckenna: not true! I had never been asked for this form in any previous application.
My birth cert yes; my adoption certificate no. Never.
@Adele Sheehan: How do you have a birth cert if you’re adopted?
@Adrian Mckenna: ‘biological’ parents, not ‘natural’ parents.
@Adrian Mckenna: I am adopted and totally agree dunno what all the fuss and drama is about. I read the instructions before going to social welfare office rang them when I couldn’t locate my adoption certificate to check on process and they directed me to apply for new one over the phone which took seconds and not a lot of money.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: it’s the short birth cert that every adoptee has .not the long one.
@Ciara Ni Mhurchu: short form, always sufficed until now.
This drags up a whole heap of crap for adopted people.
@Adele Sheehan: you only have one birth cert, thats your original one the other one is your adopion certificate
@Adele Sheehan: if you were adopted you dont have your original birth cert you have what is a copy of an extract from the adopted childrens register, it says it under the words birth cert which is a technical lie.
We live in a muppet uped country , when you can have a passport , but still can’t prove who you are .
Trust me , I have experience . seeking my old pps number , they couldn’t believe it was from the 80′s , yet the Pakistani guys in front of me and the three guys behind me had no problem .
Perhaps they had proof of UK residence or immigration status? Or are you really trying to say that you shouldn’t have had any problem on the basis of not being brown? If Ireland doesn’t have an efficient civil registry that’s not the fault of the lads in front of you.
@Mick Tobin: The fact I had a passport and proof of previous tax paying with a prsi number should have been enough you would think .
I said the men in front of me were Pakistani , not because they had brown skin , lots of people have brown skin , but because they were using Pakistani identity documents , not British ones .
@Ken Hayden: you do know that people born in other countries can be resident here too right? Maybe they had other documentation that you didn’t see.
not long ago no one wanted one
@Larry Roe: …until the government made it compulsory for certain services.
@Jesus Christ: You’re obviously a fake son of god .
Can you not see what this ties into , the story of roma being denied pps numbers because they can’t prove who they are .
Jesus , I give up on you .
@Ken Hayden:
I gave up on him long ago…
@Ken Hayden: You may give up on him but he will never give up on you.
I’m adopted and never had a problem getting a card or any other government issued documentation with my adoption cert. It is a legal document and has to be accepted. I can only guess that the person issuing the card hasn’t a clue of what they are doing but when it comes to the government departments that doesn’t surprise me.
@No One: This woman didn’t have her adoption certificate with her ..
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: I think the narrative is , she’s a woman who was treated unfairly , otherwise we would have heard about men in the same predicament .
The journal , what a cucked up world they live in .
@Ken Hayden: Third paragraph in, it mentions a 48 year old man who spoke to the Journal last November about a similar problem.
@Ken Hayden: not the case this time :)
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: Just like a clock , I can be wrong twice .
@Ken Hayden: you could leave out the ‘l! in clock in your case
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: I’m also adopted read what documents I needed went along with passport and adoption cert and no problems or comments or humiliation!
This is more outrageous because getting a copy of these certificates isn’t free. If you don’t have one on hand you’re only out of pocket if you’re adopted. But the bigger question is, if the State devoted resources to electronically indexing ALL birth records, why hasn’t this been done for adoption? They are surely a fraction of the size, and clearly it isn’t a work in progress because this has been the way it was since the cards were introduced.
@Gerard: I’m adopter brought my birth cert along (not adoptive one) and no problems whatsoever!
@Lydia McLoughlin: I know a relative too who did the same and had no problem either ..
@Lydia McLoughlin: most adopted people wouldn’t have their birth certs though
@Dave O Keeffe: they have birth certs ..just not the long one .
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: and guess what, short forma isn’t acceptable for proof of anything usually as it doesn’t contain enough identifying information.
@Lydia McLoughlin: same with me. There was a bit of questioning and photocopying but nothing crazy.
@Dave O Keeffe: they will always a short version ..? The long version is the problem. I do have this now though can’t remember how I got it being honest but never use it.
@Lydia McLoughlin: exactly, not once have I had my short form birth cert accepted as proof for anything. I think you can get the long form without parents names and info on it now or something along those lines.
Just get the f-ing adoption cert FFS
@Al Coholic:
It’s a bit like someone complaining about not being let onto a flight because they didn’t read that you had to have a boarding pass…
@Al Coholic: what if you don’t know that you’ve been adopted?
@Dallan O’Reilly: welll you need to bring ypur passport too and to obtain your passport you would need the right documentation too… so by then the person would know they are adopted .
So it’s easier to get a passport ?
Total bollix , I’m adopted and had to get one as was on the dole, absolutely no checks whatsoever. Obviously different civil servants.
@Ian James Burgess: Ah but you must see that the Journo has been trying to whip up an issue with these cards for a while ,this women crying and having a near breakdown because she did not have a cert ,gimme a break
Same happened to my husband only difference is he actually brought his adoption certificate to be told he needed a birth cert.
No. This is very, very far from the worst form of humiliation. She didn’t bring a requested document to the appointment so it is her fault completely. It’s also a temporary issue as she can just bring the right document to her next appointment. It’s not quite up there with the humiliation that the Rohingya people are going through just now, is it?
She didn’t bring the correct paperwork and then points the finger at the situation and holds it responsible for humiliating her. If the person wanted privacy she could have discussed this on the phone, ensured she knew precisely what paperwork is required and saved herself being ‘humiliated’. It sounds like she still has a lot of issues to work through. But then again, in this instance it’s a woman in this story, hence the headline, adding to the subliminal messages being sent out to the public. The need to ensure that women are still seen as the 2nd class citizens we are lead to believe is sad.
@Nick Drake: not true ..the same thing happened to a man back in November and there was an article about it .
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: Booooooo….: )
Ok, let’s get real here. As an adopted person, there are many reasons to be angry with the state. This isn’t one of them. True, access to the full version of our birth certificates isn’t sorted yet (a separate issue) but an adoption certificate is perfectly adequate for the purposes of getting a PS card and every adopted person should have one in the same way that every non-adopted person should have a birth certificate. There’s a difference between inconvenience & a breach of rights! Potato / Potahto.
My main curiosity is have there been instances yet where an imdividual didnt know they were adopted until going to obtain the psc. I would say its a matter of time til something like this happens.
@Shannon Cassidy: it wouldn’t happen because you need ypur passport so if a person didn’t know they were adopted then they’d find that out when they applied for their passport and not when they applying for this card .
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: not necessarily. There are several forms of proof of identity that can be submitted for an Irish passport….the birth certificate being only one of them, especially years ago before the onset of the computer age. So when renewing a passport…you wouldn’t need anything else other than the old passport. Ergo….it would not be necessary to know you were adopted. And quite frankly…with the secrecy, and often shame, that has historically been attached to adoption in this country (thank you Catholic Church and past governments), i am dismayed that getting this stupid public services card is not being handled with more sensitivity in regards to adoption.
@Patty Cullinane: there’s a reason why this information is kept with a different department and rightly so ..no civil servant or anybody just sitting at a computer should be able to access such sensitive information..
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: that is a crock of shite. They can get and do have access to “sensitive” information. What do you think the public services card is?
@Rosemarie F Martin: disgraceful carry on you had to go thru because of the overpaid inefficiency of the public service. Will they never cop on to common sense? What I find disturbing is that if someone doesn’t know they are adopted….they end up finding out because of stupid red tape nonsense from some public servant flunky trying to justify this cesspool of inefficiency.
@Patty Cullinane: DEASP do not have access to adoption records and rightly so ..
@Siobhán Ni Mhurchú: you are missing the point.
Past secrecy taking its toll!
@Mary Lyons: Could they bring the “baby sales invoice” from the mother & baby home instead?
This is completely weird, if you are from the UK you can present your Passport OR your birth or adoption certificate. But if you are Irish and adopted it’s not enough to present your passport they want your adoption certificate too!
So Irish citizens are in some way being discriminated against in their own country!
Slightly off subject my father was refused retirement pension on the grounds his ppsi number didn’t exist. It took months of correspondence before he got his pension sorted and they discovered it did actually exist. He was told the delay was due to a computer error. Hah! Very convenient.
@Dorothy Giselsson: I don’t understand … very convenient for who? You think the civil servant wanted to create more work for them self? Why would they do that? Dud your dad have some sort of personal issue with them or are you just making an effort to be paranoid/attention seeking?
I once went to the airport without my passport and they wouldn’t let me on the plane
I’m adopted and so is my dog. I was humiliated when I tried to get a dog licence and found that I had to tick a box to confirm that I own a dog. This would never happen to a non adoptee who doesn’t own a dog.
How is this the worst form of humiliation and the highest form of discrimination? You didn’t read the requirements on what to bring. It’s all about identity checks.
You’re really going to call having to bring your adoption cert with you the “highest form of discrimination” in this day and age? Really?
Who was the humiliator in this case? I understand the feelings of anxiety and as a society we must accept that adopted persons had no control over what happened to them. Adoptive parents are loving people and should prepare the child. Seems like if a passport was obtained previously the person should already know they were adopted. Perhaps the passport was obtained by the parents?
It is so unfortunate that there is such a lack of continuity within the public service. Too often, how you are treated and the kind of information and service you receive depends on what public servant you are dealing with. I have witnessed this for myself on more occasions than I care to count. Makes you wonder why civil servants In this country don’t understand why they are so despised. And seriously….if you can get a passport in this country, with the necessary requirements it takes to get one, that should be sufficient to prove who you are to get a public services card. I seriously doubt there is a dangerous crime cartel of adopted citizens of this country with Irish passports falsely seeking to get public services cards so they can let’s say…put one over on the driver’s theory test centres. Oh…perhaps they are all getting together and hoping to get to ride the bus for free. Yep…that’s what’s really happening!
This is nothing more than another example of beauracratic nonsense being supported by the taxpayer. And seriously people..who really wants to get a PSC? What…do adopted citizens have some sort of need to put themselves thru this ritual more than non adopted citizens? Nope….I don’t think so.
This is just another thing we are being forced to do so that everything about us is at the fingertips of big brother…being forced upon us under the veiled threat of not being able to access public services that we all pay for in the first place. All you have to do is look at the ambiguity of the government’s language in even describing the necessity of the PSC to understand that. Which is always a big indication of what they don’t want you to know. If the government is insisting on these cards…then streamline the proces for adopted citizens; with Irish passports being sufficient proof of identity…and get on with it. Ps. If an Irish passport isn’t sufficient proof of identity for adopted citizens…what does this say about our passport system?
Stop reading after the bit about it being in the letter what the lady needed to bring. A non-story really. I went into my local shop the other day picked up a few bits then realised that I left my wallet at home and had to put the stuff back. Can I have a story please?
This whole saga is a joke. No wonder they call us the thick Irish.
@Martin Murphy: Perhaps you are. Perhaps the lady that didn’t bring the required documents with her and now seems indignant about the fact that her legal status is ‘adopted’ and somehow seems to think the PSC identification requirements shouldn’t apply to her, is.
I’m not though, and it sounds like some revenue like efficiency in the PSC centre is to be appreciated.
@Cicero: Great comment.
I should have made this clearer.My issue is with why the PPS people need the certificate in the first place.The certificate would have to have been provided in order to obtain the passport.So why are the PPS people undertaking the same exercise that the passport issuing authority have already done ?
@Anthony newey: I can only imagine that they multiplied 90,000 people by a fee of an extra €20 for another copy of the firm, and somehow saw some point to the exercise.
Maybe in the long term she could find herself and all her private business are safer by not having one.. I for one believe they should not be compulsory.. and even though I have one.. I did not accept or agree to it from the start.
My sister in law had same problem due to adoption
@Derek Thomas: What? She didn’t bring the documents listed on the form either?
Utter, utter skangers.
I find it very odd that all the comments here automatically accept this biometric ID card without any questioning or reasoning.
‘I got MY card’ etc.
Stop getting the card and stand up for yourself !
@eastsmer: there’s the problem right there.. you think the card is a bad thing we should all naturally rebel against it.
I don’t know a single person that thinks this card is a bad idea… in fact, it is about time one was introduced to drive some efficiency in the public service by connecting a single account for each person to all services provided by government.
I have yet to hear one reason why that is a bad idea.
@Cicero: hahahahahhhaaaaahhahahaha!!! The words efficiency and public service should never be allowed to be used in the same sentence. It is an oxymoron.
Let’s all be adopted and give two fingers to our control freaks
I wonder does this vary from office. I’m an adoptee. I had no issues applying for mine.I applied for my long birth cert but couldn’t get it under my current name. I took the small version of the birth cert I had and handed all my documents over to the man in the dsp office. He checked my documents, looked at me said are you adopted i answered yes and nothing more was said, I got my card. I can understand adoption being a sensitive thing to discuss but it should be the same for all adoptees and everyone else that applies for these cards.
At my appointment to get my PSC I produced my adoption certificate to which the lady processing my application asked me did I not have my original birth certificate that my adoption certificate was not good enough. I had to explain to her adopted people are denied access to their birth certificates and that was all I had. She obviously didn’t believe me and left me waiting while she discussed this with a fellow colleague, on her return she said adoption certificate would do, no apology I received for her ignorance. I was embarrassed and reason I didn’t complain was I didn’t want to be further upset by this incident.
I am so sh!t sick of this. Was meant to get married in
@Ian Phillip Creaner: I need closure on that story
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