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Sam Boal

'Mistrust', 'frustration': Dubliners have their say on the future of policing in Ireland

The chair of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland said she and her colleagues had heard some heart wrenching stories from members of the public.

DUBLIN RESIDENTS HAD their chance this evening to help shape the direction An Garda Síochána will head in the future.

The public meeting for the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland was a space where they could lay their frustrations and disappointments on the table. But tonight was also an opportunity to highlight the type of policing they thought was working and to suggest improvements that would make a difference in their lives and communities.

The meeting at Dublin City Council’s Civic Offices was just one of many that have been held across the country over the last two months and commission chair Kathleen O’Toole said some of the stories they had heard were “heart wrenching”.

“We are focusing on the future,” she told members of the public who attended the meeting, adding that there are “enough people not focusing on the past and present”.

The first speaker was a man who told members of the commission that the integrity of An Garda Síochána is gone. He said there was “baggage” in the force that is preventing them from providing the service the public deserves.

Community policing was one area that was highly praised – where it is happening, the gardaí are doing it well, speakers said.

But this service has “come under the axe” according to Dublin City councillor Daithí Doolan, with just 744 community gardaí in the force currently.

“It has been continually eroded and cut,” he told commission members.

Your link with the gardaí isn’t the commissioner or the commission – it’s the local guard.

He told them any incoming commissioner needs to be a “champion of the community guards” and a reforming commissioner.

Another positive came from Gillian Brian of the Belong youth service, who said many of the service’s LGBT young people spoke of “exceptional gardaí working individually on their own without the support of the force”. She said the LGBT diversity training given to 90 gardaí was a welcome move, but this training should be across the board.

Frustration

Some speakers highlighted the criminalisation of drug users – particularly young people. Ana Liffey’s Tony Duffin telling the commission that he had worked closely with gardaí at all levels over the years.

“There is a lot of frustration trying to police something that is in fact a health issue,” he said. The decriminalisation of drugs for personal use is the way forward, Duffin told them.

Representatives from a number of groups who support minorities addressed the commission, including Thomas McCann of the Traveller counselling service. He said the relationship between gardaí and travellers has been “one of mistrust”.

He said many Travellers will not go into a garda station to report a crime.

“People don’t feel like they’re protected by the State when something happens,” he said. This leads to people feeling like they have to protect themselves, he told them.

On that same vein, Dearbhla Ryan of Sex Workers Alliance Ireland said building trust with gardaí and sex workers is “extremely challenging”.

“Gardaí represent enforcers, not protectors, for sex workers,” she said.

And representatives of migrants spoke of how the people they work with are afraid to report crimes to gardaí in case it impacts on their immigration status.

As the meeting came to a close, Kathleen O’Toole thanked members of the public for their constructive feedback.

“We have no agenda but to get this right,” she told them.

The commission is accepting written submissions from members of the public and representative groups until the end of this month.

Read: Security ramped up at Regency Hotel trial as Defence Forces form part of armed escort>
Read: The gardaí will soon be driving electric BMWs (well, some of them anyway)>

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78 Comments
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    Mute Phil Donohue
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:47 PM

    Personally, I believe that The Garda do an amazing job, despite the deck being stacked against them every day. They’re under resourced, under paid and spend their days dealing with the population we never want to meet. The Frontline is under funded and underpaid. Spend a day in their shoes and see how you feel at the end of your shift. Thanks.

    337
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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:14 PM

    @Phil Donohue: That’s the typical view of somene who thinks that police forces are just blokes they know that took some sort of vocation to be a civil servant in a uniform, and all issues are down to salary and lack of appreciation. As this review finally asked the public, the feedback is that the force is unprofessional in both their management expectations and the delivery by the force. They are unprofessional, as they do not seem to understand they are the conduit for citizens with the law, but instead they follow orders like cadets in the army. They are instructed to use the ambiguity of Section 8 to trump any questions of them and use it as a threat. And finally, they are unprofessional in that there is a tolerance in being unfit for duty in both anger issues and health and obesity.

    I would love to be able to support the gardai, but unless there is a root and branch reorganisation and and ethos of duty to citizens, then this bunch will never have it.

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    Mute Alt Right Crybaby
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:26 PM

    @Phil Donohue: Thanks for the press release Phil.

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    Mute Nick
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:45 PM

    Kop out Phil, friends car rear ended cops in petrol station opposite for “da free coffees” asked to take details as boy racer in northern registered car caused incident, sorry this is not our area and left scene with their free coffees, abandoned woman in severely distressed state. Nothing to do with resourcing, morale, conditions or pay just laziness. Wasters

    89
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    Mute michael heery
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 3:59 AM

    @Gulliver Foyle: i was talking to a retired garda lately and he says ”we do not do community policing anymore”’ i am baffled at what do they do..

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    Mute Fintan O'flaois
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 6:33 AM

    @Phil Donohue:
    Under resourced? by what measure, we have more police per capita than any other western common law country.
    Under paid? by what measure, AGS have the highest average pay of any public service group and their pay compares very favourably to Police salaries in peer countries.

    40
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    Mute Fintan O'flaois
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 6:43 AM

    @Gulliver Foyle: “they follow orders like cadets in the army” that’s an unnecesary insult to the army. Unlike AGS, the Army really is under resourced and under paid but still do not get involved in outrageous controversies like AGS.

    26
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    Mute birdseye
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 7:15 AM

    @Fintan O’flaois: they are actually undermanned when compared to similar countries I.e Scotland per population and land mass………

    19
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    Mute Martin Byrne
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 7:21 AM

    @Phil Donohue: I’ve called them when holding down the guy who kicked the mirror off my car, I’ve called them when I saw a gang stealing a car to set alight, when I’ve seen muggings, when I’ve been burgled … they’ve never come.

    I’ve found an endemic arrogance and unwarranted self congratulatory attitude. They’ve never been there when I needed them and never solved/investigated any crimes committed against me.

    If you challenge them, they close ranks. They are rude and aggressive, male and female alike. I know they do some good work and tough work- but as it stands, they don’t provide a service to the general public that is in any way acceptable

    The force needs a complete overhaul.

    49
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    Mute David Murphey
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 7:46 AM

    @Martin Byrne: “they’ve never come.”; “They’ve never been there when I needed them and never solved/investigated any crimes committed against me.” Never? Never? Really?

    “They are rude and aggressive, male and female alike.” Are you sure that’s not a result of your negative attitude to them when you’re dealing with them?

    I have never found Gardai to be rude and aggressive, but that’s just my own experience.

    30
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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 8:30 AM

    @Fintan O’flaois: ps: no insult was intended to the army, or cadets, but purely to the way they operate. Armies have to follow a chain of command and follow orders verbatim by their commands officers for it to work as a single machine, responsible to the state – and they do that. The gardai seem to operate on private (and shredable) memos, gossip and union meetings for their ultimate modus operandi, not the law.

    13
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    Mute Skinnerbot
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:28 PM

    Reform of the Gardaí will be much like the many reforms of the HSE over the years:

    It’ll make a few headlines, they’ll do a few photo shoots, and they’ll go back to being a state body that is rotten at its most senior ranks once again.

    231
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    Mute Sean Conway
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 9:12 AM

    @Skinnerbot: Once they start telling lies to cover up for themselves. they are no better than the criminals

    39
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    Mute dodofrey
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:22 PM

    I was involved in a RTA last year, had a witness and reported it to the guards. He did nothing. I still think he threw my statement in the bin. In the end it became a joke when I’d either ring or call into the station, you could almost hear him hiding behind the wall whilst his colleague would say he wasn’t in. He lied and fumbled the truth like a child caught with a illicit biscuit in his hand. Beyond useless.

    274
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    Mute Just One Mans Opinion
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:35 PM

    @dodofrey: if their was an injury they have to investigate it, if their is no injury it’s a civil matter

    105
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    Mute Nick
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:36 PM

    Snap. Hate saying it, wasters.

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    Mute jagmerc
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 12:25 AM

    @dodofrey: learn how to drive and you’ll find insurance isn’t a matter for guards unless you don’t have it

    27
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    Mute dodofrey
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 12:42 AM

    @jagmerc: I wasn’t driving.

    19
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    Mute Martin Byrne
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 7:09 AM

    @jagmerc: you jumped to an incorrect conclusion there, buddy. Almost like you’re a Garda

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    Mute David Murphey
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 7:49 AM

    @dodofrey: ” I still think he threw my statement in the bin.” you think so? But you don’t know. Fair enough.

    “you could almost hear him” Well, could you hear him or not?

    You are making wild accusations based on what you think may have happened and on what you could not hear.

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    Mute dodofrey
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 7:53 AM

    @David Murphey: Yep. Because he was so forthright in his professional capacity to deal with the issue. I was not phoned once. Now I’m listening to what you’re saying and I’m writing it all down on my magic typewriter. Which station are you based in?

    18
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    Mute Al Coholic
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 1:46 PM

    @David Murphey: my house was burgled few years back. A group of Dublin skangers were renting a holiday home a few doors up at the time my house and others were robbed. Called the cops, told them out suspicions but did SFA. Three of us went up and got our stuff back, including circa $1000 cash float one of the lads had from his restaurant. WASTERS

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    Mute Censorship is modern day book burning
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:36 PM

    When I was kid knocking about on the road with me mates, they’d pull over, search us while verbally abusing us, which being 12/13/14 etc usually provoked some lip back from us, which would result in a belt of a torch across the temple then down the station for the slaps in the cell…only to have your ma called to come down & collect you to be released without charge. It didn’t just cause us to hate the guards, it caused us to despise country people in general (typically they’re guards) like your growing up in inner city Dublin or council estate & the only contact you have with country folk are ones that abuse you… truly wish those days are gone…but from what I hear, not completely.

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    Mute frank murphy
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 1:37 AM

    @Censorship is modern day book burning: I hope it knocked some sense into you PMSL

    29
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    Mute Censorship is modern day book burning
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 10:58 AM

    @frank murphy: Let me ask you something, does it seem to you like it did?

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    Mute Pat Butler
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:38 PM

    So the Dubliners have a say???? Have the rest of the country got no say????

    118
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    Mute FlopFlipU
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:40 PM

    @Pat Butler: no

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    Mute FlopFlipU
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:41 PM

    @Pat Butler: only messing

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    Mute Dermot Lane
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:42 PM

    @Pat Butler: There’s always one. How about you read paragraph 3 again, if you even read the article in the first place.

    29
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    Mute Griff
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:47 PM

    @Dermot Lane: Did The Journal publish articles on the meetings that have taken place outside Dublin?

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    Mute Pat O'Connor
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:22 PM

    @Pat Butler: Taaaaxi.

    4
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    Mute Pat O'Connor
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:24 PM

    @Griff: That’s a question you should ask the author of the story.

    7
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    Mute Nick
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:39 PM

    Try read the article, then get the chip off your shoulder..

    13
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    Mute Mairtín
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 8:28 AM

    @Pat Butler: My memories of ‘Guard Beatings’ of myself and my brothers would fill a book. As a result many young lads went as soon as they could to England to get out of that environment. Some of those Guards would have Drink taken, and were more inclined to swing the ‘Baton ‘ to the Head. Maybe they were a product of the Society as we were at the Time, hopefully new thinking Society will get ‘Rid’ of those in law enforcement, whether due to ‘Corruption ‘ or ‘Culture ‘ bringing reproach on genuine law makers.

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    Mute Joe Clery
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:13 PM

    They must be the most unprofessional side in the customer facing aspect towards the public . Trained to ignore the public, and then power trip over motorists, pedestrians, cyclists etc. who are just trying to get to work and can honestly understand the muffled shout from inside a garda car or helmet.

    Local community forum here.. Several local residents, old and young complained of ringing garda station to report AntiSocial, a mugging, a garage break in, tools stolen and basically the guards in the station do not want to know.. They willl fob you off with any excuse to get rid off you off the phone and sneer at you when you suggest following up the phone call, or pulse, you can hear them dragging the buke and pin out…. The super on the night, basically said, did you try and ring another number…!!

    Any decent org. reminds, you all calls are recorded and follow via email, or txt with a simple ref. number so it can easily be followed. Ok in the garda, there has to some safety and confidentiality issues.

    But still a little bit of customer service training and do your hob

    110
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    Mute Griff
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:22 PM

    How would reporting a crime negatively affect a legal migrant’s immigration status?

    72
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    Mute Siobhán Ni Mhurchú
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:57 PM

    @Griff: it wouldn’t unless they’ve something to hide …

    37
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    Mute Max Krzyzanowski
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 1:10 AM

    @Siobhán Ni Mhurchú:

    Really?

    Have you traveled much – ever encountered corrupt cops?

    I’ve had the displeasure of having had to pay a bribe to cops while traveling abroad.

    It’s not uncommon and it is an entirely reasonable fear for an immigrant to have that if they report a crime to police they might find themselves victimized a second time.

    19
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    Mute Matt Donovan
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:03 PM

    Take the functions of crime & security branch away from AGS for a start, get the phukking traffic corps to do their job, & I dunno maybe when people who are in need of assistance contact the gardai they can be bothered to respond in less than a week. Abysmal attitude goes both ways.

    65
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    Mute Declan
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:06 PM

    Corruption, cronyism, ignorance, disenfranchised youth,white collar crime, no accountability; Banana republic.

    99
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    Mute phil
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 12:16 AM

    Travellers wont report a crime because there is mistrust. Yes because the Gaurd locked up his cousin last week. Always everybody else’s fault.

    Migrants wont report a crime for fear of deportation.. Then they shouldn’t be here. Reporting crime is part and parcel of fitting into society.

    The criminalisation of drug users is nothing to do with the AGS. The government make the laws, the Gaurds have to enforce it.

    67
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    Mute Mairtín
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 8:40 AM

    @phil: You have Simplified the problem, a local Guard will normally think ‘where will this take me’, if the offender is from one of the working class Areas well that simplifies his charge. But when offender is ‘upperclass’ and his parents can provide ‘Barrister’ and Council normally then Garda would check that out and probably end up ringing the parents. Therefore it’s mind over matter, only if it matters.!!

    12
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    Mute Paul Comerford
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 10:11 AM

    @Mairtín: free legal aid… everyone is entitled to ‘barrister’ and counsel .. so what’s your point??

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    Mute Mairtín
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 10:20 AM

    @Paul Comerford: My ‘Point’; is where ‘you’ come from, your background, your Area where you would live. Barrister didn’t help Joanne Hayes of the Infamous Kerry babies case.!!

    2
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    Mute Michael Crowley
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:53 PM

    My motorbike was stolen from outside my house a few years ago. I notified the guards and they put it in the pulse system. A year later I get a call from a breakers yard saying they have my bike and we’re going to dismantle it. They also said they picked it up a few roads up from where I live. Why didn’t the garda put the reg through their system when they found it a few days after it was stolen and notify me. There was nothing wrong with the bike and my premium went up for the claim. Stupidity on their behalf.

    86
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    Mute DeFonz
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:37 PM

    which citizens get to go to these meetings?

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    Mute Skinnerbot
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:41 PM

    @DeFonz: http://www.policereform.ie/en/POLREF/Pages/January_2018_public_consultation_events

    Open to the public, but they werent advertised at all.

    54
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    Mute frank murphy
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 1:52 AM

    i feel sorry for the police having to go into riff raff areas to deal with the welfare lifers

    41
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    Mute gerry fallon
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 11:20 PM

    First of all we need to have respect for the Gardai when they stop motorists and ask to see their Insurance and Licence.
    I’ve seen the Video of the 2 scrotes using insulting language at the Garda.Djsgusting.

    43
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    Mute Denis McClean
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 1:07 AM

    @gerry fallon: Maybe you are being cynical, but Gardai stopping people going about their business without reasonable cause is disturbing the peace, usually on overtime and when crime is being committed elsewhere.

    38
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    Mute Ronan Gallagher
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 6:39 AM

    @gerry fallon: in some countries including the us the police can only request your documents if they have probable cause. In Ireland you can end up in court for refusing. Must be that freedom thing the Americans always go on about.

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    Mute Mairtín
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 10:21 AM

    @gerry fallon: wait till the video is turned off.!!

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    Mute Padraig Cosgrave
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    Jan 24th 2018, 4:42 AM

    @Denis McClean: Disturbing the peace? kindly elaborate on your theory

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    Mute John Scully
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 12:55 AM

    My own and my family’s assertion of the Gardai policing is just terrible and needs to change. Now, I am referring to the 1970s onwards and not so sure of today’s policing. My family and I have suffered Garda harassment/wrongdoing for over 30 years that began in the 1970s and ended in 2000. We lived with this for all those years but sadly my wife Barbara passed away recently and just before this she said that maybe the gardai might apologise to us in the end as we did not have criminal records. The Gardai did apologise but it was after Barbara’s passing and I was very disappointed that this didn’t happen when she was here. Barbara would have been very satisfied with this apology and it would have been a fitting tribute to her. I asked that the apology be given in writing but it was refused.

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    Mute Mairtín
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 8:58 AM

    @John Scully: I am so sorry to hear such a Sad story, many at that time only escaped by going on the Boat to England. Some of my brothers went after my mother was told by a Garda that ‘ if they were gone by weekend that would be the end of the matter.’ And then would they ever come home, only in fear that a knock would come to the door and they would be taken away. They returned when it was found out that such a Garda passed away or was moved, but they were scared to stay too long. Because we had no Dad, it was all the more difficult for our Mam who was often bullied by the local guard when he would call. Now the brothers, Three of them are Dead all died in London, from what they experienced in their home Town, one in Prison at 15 years old it was a sad Era.

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    Mute Cormac McKay Dublin
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 12:54 AM

    Dublin needs a Directly Elected Mayor that will Re-establish the DMP The Dublin Metropolitan Police with a Directly Elected Commissioner & Directly Elected DPP for Dublin, it was pretty clear at the meeting the general public has no confidence in our Justice System or police force!

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    Mute Chukwu Umar Adam
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 8:34 AM

    @Cormac McKay Dublin: Absolutely agree with you on the directly elected mayor and DMP. Dublin is way too big for the system we have in place today. Dublin is effectively under the management of a civil servant (the DCC council manager).

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    Mute Peter Byrne
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 9:39 AM

    I have to say the Gardai do an amazing job n very difficult circumstances sometimes. They deserve to support of the community and better equipment from the government

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    Mute mark carroll
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 2:30 PM

    @Peter Byrne: arsehole

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    Mute Padraig Cosgrave
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    Jan 24th 2018, 4:50 AM

    @mark carroll: Interesting conclusion, kindly elaborate

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    Mute Boutros Boutros-Ghali
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    Jan 22nd 2018, 10:51 PM

    How did you manage to get two non-reserve Gardai in one frame?

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    Mute Chukwu Umar Adam
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 8:29 AM

    Notwithstanding the fact I’ve had to deal with a handful of Gardai whom I thought misused their positions during my split from ex wife 8 years ago, I very much hold the force in high esteem.

    We just need men and women in the Gardai who are 120% objective in their dealings with the public that is devoid of racially induced bias and let me add this is not easy but can be achieved.

    Inconsistency in procedures and policies is also a problem across the board in official Ireland and this affects the Gardai as well cos when you leave serious policy issues or procedures to the discretion of the officer, you immediately legitimise Government backed racial bias and ethnic profiling.

    For instance, leaving such an issue as who becomes an Irish to the discretion of whoever is the justice minister is outrageous. That is an enormous responsibility for which eligibility or otherwise should very STRICTLY derive from the constitution of Ireland and not in the hands of a local champion from some county in Ireland.

    Overall, the Gardai are doing a fabulous job however, there’s room for them to do more.

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    Mute Fintan O'flaois
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 6:37 AM

    AGS is the most powerful police force in any Western Country and it has not proven to be professionally capable to discharge its duties. No other Western democracy vests responsibility for State Security and National Intelligence in its police force, AGS is a unique force which needs immediate reform. The main focus of reforming AGS must be to divest State Security and National Intelligence and allow AGS to focus on actual Policing.

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    Mute Ian Oh
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 2:29 PM

    No they have no intention to get it right because they simply don’t care and instead of being Garda Siochana (keepers of the peace) they have become Police (policy enforcers) Our constitution is being trampled on every day: examples are garda breaking into homes to hand them to sheriffs to possess. Confiscating untaxed cars. Confiscating cars from other jurisdictions if VRT is not paid. (this is an illegal tax according to EU law) Invading peoples property without permission or a warrant. Stopping people and arresting them on a whim, ie ego and power trip without any real criminality justification. These are all attempts to impose criminal law on those that breach civil matters. These things have nothing to do with the Garda and interfering with such events is totally in breach of their oath of office. They are supposed to be neutral and impartial. They are not Bank employees. They are not revenue collectors. They are not Judges. These things should be left to the courts to deal with. Example events where they have behaved just like complete bullies was supporting Shell in Rossport and then they supported the thug employees of DOB in installing water meters here as well. The amount of overtime they pulled for this is unreal and all at the expense of the taxpayer. An then they have the nerve to say the the public should trust them?? The top ranking Gardai and the commissioner are all totally corrupt as is being shown up at the moment.

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    Mute mark carroll
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    Jan 23rd 2018, 2:31 PM

    @Ian Oh: true

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