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Eamonn Farrell

Abortion referendum proposed for May, but 12-week law goes too far for Coveney

During the four-hour long special meeting on the issue there was division on the question of unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

Updated 9am

IN A HISTORIC announcement last night, the Cabinet agreed to hold a referendum on the Eighth Amendment in May.

During the four-hour long special meeting on the issue there was division among ministers on the question of unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

Addressing the media late last night, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said the referendum will seek to replace the Eighth Amendment with a new constitutional provision specifically enabling the Oireachtas to legislate for abortion.

Varadkar confirmed that he is in favour of the recommendations allowing abortion up to the 12-week time period, stating that in reality Ireland “already has abortion, but it is unsafe.”

Notably absent from the Taoiseach’s side at yesterday evening’s press conference was the Tánaiste Simon Coveney.

Coveney told his Cabinet colleagues yesterday that he would support the repeal of the Eighth Amendment, but would not support unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Outlining his viewpoint on the issue, the Cork TD told TheJournal.ie:

The status quo of how women are treated in crisis pregnancy cannot remain. I am united with my Cabinet colleagues in agreeing to repeal the Eighth Amendment and allow enabling legislation.
While there are differing viewpoint on the content of that legislation, particularly on 12 weeks access unrestricted, that is a matter for the Oireachtas to now debate. My views are clear on that and I expressed them at Cabinet.

One minister told TheJournal.ie that while there were no rows during the talks, there was “a lot of difficulty over the 12 weeks”.

The announcement was welcomed by groups like Amnesty International, which said it was “heartened at today’s government backing for legislation around a 12-week ‘on request model” and the Coalition to Repeal the Eighth Amendment, which described it as “a real step forward”.

The Pro Life Campaign said the announcement was “as bad as anyone could have envisaged”.

Spokesperson Dr Ruth Cullen said what is being proposed “is solely about stripping unborn babies of all meaningful legal protections”.

Respect

Health Minister Simon Harris will now draft a Referendum Bill, which will be published at the beginning of March.

Speaking to RTÉ’s Morning Ireland today, Harris said he did not think it “came as a great surprise” that members of Cabinet had differing views on abortion.

However, he said ministers had all support the proposal to ask the people of Ireland to repeal the amendment in its entirety.

Harris said he has “nothing but respect” for people who are opposed to a repeal under any circumstances, but he said whether people agree with it or not, abortion is a reality for Irish women.

He said he can not close his eyes to the fact that more than 3,000 women travelled in 2016 for a termination.

“We can trust the women in this country. We can trust women, we can trust doctors and I believe this is how it should be dealt with,” he said.

When asked about the possibility that a change in law will result in women terminating pregnancies after they are told their baby is likely to have a disability, Harris said he found it “somewhat offensive” to suggest that this is the reason Irish women were seeking abortions.

The minister said he has no wish to use citizens with Down syndrome “as some homogenous group to fit a political narrative”.

‘Not a black and white issue’

A draft of the general scheme of legislation will also be back before Cabinet in the coming weeks. The Taoiseach said the draft legislation will only be debated in the Dáil if the referendum is approved and the amendment is repealed.

Flanked last night by the Children’s Minister Katherine Zappone and Minister Simon Harris, Leo Varadkar said he had to think “long and hard” about the 12 weeksregime.

He said it was the Oireachtas Committee that highlighted the impossibility of rape victims being asked to pass tests to qualify for an abortion, stating they would be made victims a second time.

“We know that thousands of women, from every single county in Ireland, travel abroad for an abortion every year. We know that women obtain abortion pills through the post to end their pregnancies.”

He said that abortion pills will not be available “over the counter”, adding that only a GP from a listed register will be permitted to give such a prescription.

The Taoiseach said “abortion is not a black and white issue”, pointing out that it a personal matter for many people.

Varadkar said:

However difficult, I believe the time has come for the people to make this decision. The question has to be a yes or no one. Do we reform our abortion laws or leave them as they are? For my part I will advocate a yes vote, my own views have evolved over time. Life experience does that.

The Taoiseach said a summary of the Attorney General’s advice to Cabinet will be published today.

- With reporting by Michelle Hennessy.

‘We’re asking people to trust women’: Repeal referendum to be held before the end of May>

Marathon Cabinet meeting on abortion comes to an end after four hours>

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    Mute Hank_Scorpio
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:07 AM

    Think a lot of people will agree with him.

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    Mute KEV
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:32 AM

    @Hank_Scorpio: then a lot of ppl need to come up with a way of dealing with the question of rape.

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    Mute Simon O Flaherty
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:33 AM

    @Hank_Scorpio: It’s a very divisive subject, are we mature enough of a Nation to talk about it in a calm and rational manner is the question people should be asking. If we are going to continue to have women boarding planes and boats to get abortions done in another country or are we going to allow it here. The 25th of May is 115 days away till we make a decision on the 8th amendment.

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    Mute Eamonn Leahy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:43 AM

    @Simon O Flaherty: The voice of reason! Prepare to be drown out by all the fanatics Simon.

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    Mute Shane McGettrick
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:49 AM

    @thewolf: Because that would be the most straightforward way to access abortion services….

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    Mute M Bowe
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:11 AM

    @KEV: that has completely zero to do with lots of ppl. That should be the rape victims choice only.

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    Mute Neal Ireland Hello.
    Favourite Neal Ireland Hello.
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:28 AM

    @thewolf: Do you really have that little faith in women?

    21
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    Mute Joe Phillips
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:53 AM

    @Neal Ireland Hello.: what a manipulative and leading question. Some women, just like men, are devoid of morals.

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    Mute Joe Travers
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    Jan 30th 2018, 1:26 PM

    @anthony seymour: You just outlined a lot if what ifs anthony. WHAT IF none of that happened. What ifs are great to drive home a narrative, but we need to debate facts. Both sides are needed to make sure this is done right.

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    Mute Tom&Gerry
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    Jan 30th 2018, 4:49 PM

    @KEV: What about the morning after pill?

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    Mute Kelly Davis-Jordan
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:07 PM

    @thewolf: You have a charming attitude towards women. Sure we’re all just untrustworthy and conniving liars apparently.

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    Mute Sinead Mooney
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:10 AM

    Look, it’s nice to know what way elected representatives are voting but they get one vote just like the rest of us and Simon Coveney being a bit iffy about it ain’t gonna change the way I vote. It’s a bit arrogant of politicians (mostly middle aged males) to be saying they’re ‘not sure’…outta my way lads *screech of brakes at polling station*

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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:34 AM

    @Sinead Mooney: well that’s fine but I know I will not be giving a vote or preference to anyone that does not support repealing the 8th and the limited time for abortion. Now others may feel different but I cannot and will not ignore women’s needs and health.

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    Mute Dermot Lane
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:43 AM

    @Sinead Mooney: people are entitled to have a different view to yours, it doesn’t make them necessarily arrogant to say they’re “not sure” I hope this campaign doesn’t descent to the low levels of discourse previous abortion referendums did. I remember them and it wasn’t pretty.

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    Mute Sinead Mooney
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:56 AM

    @Dermot Lane: my point is that Simon Coveney being unsure has the same impact as my next door neighbour being unsure. She doesn’t get a headline in the news however and nor do I. So let’s just get on with it.

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    Mute Sinead Mooney
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:58 AM

    @Deborah Behan: I actually don’t think men should be allowed to vote in this referendum but I’m aware some men would disagree with that

    21
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    Mute Dermot Lane
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:07 AM

    @Sinead Mooney: I’d love to see an opinion poll along gender lines. In my own personal experience, more men are in favour of repeal than women. Look at the pro-life movement website: the movers and shakers are all women. ( This could be deliberate on their part, of course)

    31
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    Mute Sinead Mooney
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:09 AM

    @Dermot Lane: hmmm interesting…never considered that. Maybe someone clever in the CSO could collate that info after the vote.

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    Mute gjpb
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:22 AM

    @Sinead Mooney: I think not wanting men to vote is very sexist.

    While the baby grows inside the mother for 9 months, the man is impacted for the rest of his life by the baby once it is born

    53
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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:17 AM

    @Sinead Mooney: Well…if men should not be allowed to vote on this…in what arenas and on what agendas should women be excluded??? Hmmmm…maybe we should exclude women from sports that were developed, played and supported by men. So…no womens football, rugby, boxing, etc. Would that suit you??? These were all developed for and by the male of the species. So maybe we should tell women to get lost…stop playing sports we developed and ban them from even kicking a football. Or maybe we should just stop being overly provocative and discuss the issues, the deepest issues and leave the biased proclamations out??? No??? Afterall…if you have to be provocative straight off the bat…if its the first thing you have to say is something that you know will focus on your biased claim, then its just a set up really isnt it…because its just deflecting from actually taking part in a debate. If you resort to proclamations to stir emotions instead of articulating actual thoughts instead of an ideology…and maybe being open to a reasonable debate where you could actually be proven wrong on some part of what you think and say, and maybe even accept that!!! No??? Or is that too civilized or too democratic a thing to do?? And a persons inbuilt biases go way deeper than just simple things…and there are valid reasons for and against the legalization of abortion…extremely valid for different reasons. Its just not a cut and dry thing…unless you are ideologically possessed. Unless you are a mouthpiece for an ideology, and we have enough of that on both sides of the fence. The pro-life religious with their bible and the pro-choice lefties with their endless parade of victims. Its not that easy…so dont boil it down to that. You are just as bad as the polar opposite to you if you do. So cut your politicians some slack too…especially the ones who arent sure. At least they are being honest and they arent either just YES men and women or just willing to go along with whatever is popular. Some people genuinely are battling with this and Coveney for any of his failings seems to be a straight shooter to me and is actually thinking about this instead of just following a herd or blurting out ideological rhetoric. Maybe give the guy a break and maybe take your provocative ideological hat off too and give the grey matter between your ears a work out. Maybe try convince me…and others that your way is the best of a bad deal…by actually arguing taking all the factors into consideration. For instance do you have any compassion at all for a fetus? Or is it just a bunch of cells? remembering that we were all….100% of everyone who has ever lived was just the same and it is as valid a stage of the progresssion of life as me and you here as we exist. And yes…I have compassion for women…but they have choices beyond abortion. There are so many ways to avoid pregnancy with contraception these days that abortion should really be a thing of the past…why cant we be pushing for better education on this and maybe even putting it out there that sexually active men and women should be a bit more responsible??? Intercourse isnt a game afterall…it has got very serious consequences. Why cant we argue these points instead of just stirring up emotions???

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:34 AM

    @Kevin Tyrrell: maybe we should stop the rapists and paedophiles impregnating victims. Maybe we should eradicate all fatal conditions that kill babies at birth. Maybe we should make women get their tubes tied and only allow those that want to be pregnant have babies. Maybe someone should invent a 100% failsafe contraceptive that has no side effects and works every single time. Perhaps we should stop people having sex altogether unless it is specifically for reproductive needs. Oh if only…

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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:44 AM

    @Kiera: I’m not about punishing anyone. And I would be in favour of abortion in situations of non consensual sex / rape / incest etc…and with FFA and a threat to the mother. But I dont see the need for abortion on demand when the sexual act was between consenting adults. Why??? Because if people actually took the whole realm of sexual intercourse as a serious thing with actual consequences instead of just being complete morons about it then these situations need not arise. Its only when people take too lightly the consequences of unprotected sex and the chickens come home to roost that panic sets in…and the end of the world is nigh. The whole thing is eminently preventable…and if both parties practice contraception…both the condom and the pill or the myriad other forms of female contraception then there should be very little consequence from consensual sex…and people are free to have all the fun they want. Because seriously if women and men actually just took that single responsibility then this should be a non issue…because there is all the means necessary to provide protection to prevent unwanted pregnancy from consensual sex. And that is an entirely justifiable way to look at this. Anything else is just spouting ideology. Why arent we having that debate??? Oh yeah…because its about taking responsibility for your own life and choices therein…and responsibility has become a very dirty word. And that is all this is about when it boils down to it…the pro-choice agenda on the basis of unlimited access to abortion is just anti-responsibility dressed up in the victimhood of those who are ultimately the consequences of poor choices. And Im not saying men dont have any reduced responsibility in this either…if you are reckless enough to get a girl pregnant well then you have to face the music too…and support that mother and child. Men and Women need to stop seeking the easy way out of every situation and really we need to be pushing for people to take more responsibility for their lives…not less. Its very very easy. Medical science has bent over backwards to allow men and women to have safe protected sex…and yet there is still a need for abortion. Thats my point. Society needs to tackle that problem and devote resources to it, and debate that, and make that a central part of this entire debate…and Im beyond puzzled why it isnt. Because if pregnanct is discussed as a situation which is entirely preventable by contraception, and as such would alleviate the need for abortion, then why isnt that choice, that responsibility being pushed with the same force by both sides. I think that would be an agenda everyone be they pro-choice or pro-ife could agree to get behind. Wouldnt it???? And we wouldnt have to decend into the farcical circus that is already beginning. But hey…thats just probably too sensible for everyone to wrap their little ideologically screwed up brains around.

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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:54 AM

    @Kiera: I mean…we teach kids to look both ways before crossing a road…so they dont get knocked down. We teach kids not to go near an open fire…so they dont get burned. We teach kids thousands of things so they dont get hurt…killed…or put themselves in dangerous situations. Why??? Because the world is a much better place when you know what is potentially going to be a bad thing in your future. So can everyone stop banging on about whether on demand abortions are needed or not for consensual sexual relations which produce a pregnancy and start actually talking about how the hell we are going to stop the necessity for women to travel abroad to have a pregnancy terminated. Because not doing so is tantamount to letting kids just run across a road whenever they feel like it…or put their hands in a fire just for fun…and we will talk about how best to deal with the consequences of broken kids bodies and burned hands. Or is everyone…and I mean everyone just that stupid??? And Im serious about this.

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    Mute Hapax
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:59 AM

    @Sinead Mooney: Well, Sinead, it’s not a simple as that. We can’t remove men from a Referendum and there are social consequences with what you propose.

    If we look to Sweden for example. The LUF Vast political party propose that men should be allowed “abortion” up to 18 weeks i.e. that the pregnant woman should (be made) have an abortion if the potential dad is not willing to be a parent. This stems from the fact that men really do have something to do with it all: why should a man have to pay maintenance on a child he never wanted – for 18 years or so – just because the woman he had sex with wants to have the baby? This is their argument, to allow men have a CHOICE in the matter too. Based on their reasoning, this is TRUE equality.

    The issue is that, if we remove men completely from the pregnancy/abortion issue, and allow women complete autonomy then this also give the woman full responsibility for her pregnancy, should she wish to continue with it. The, in effect, removes or distances men from further responsibility.

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    Mute Ciara Ni Mhurchu
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:13 PM

    @Kevin Tyrrell: Women play sports. Men don’t get pregnant.

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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:33 PM

    @Ciara Ni Mhurchu: ummm…I was making a sarcastic facetious argument there. Must have gone straight over your head! I was trying to make the point that purposefully provocative statements should be left out of this debate. Saying women should not participate in sports men created is as ridiculous as saying men should have no say and no vote in this referendum. But if you had read my opinion you would have got that…instead of me having to explain it to you!!!

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    Mute kevin
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    Jan 30th 2018, 1:07 PM

    @Sinead Mooney: as a man i agree with you sinead for pregnancies that happen without a man’s involvement and that don’t involve a male foetus. Great point.

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 1:11 PM

    @Kevin Tyrrell: If you’re in favour of even those restricted cases, then you would need to vote for repeal as nothing will change until the 8th amendment is gone. Then it would simply be down to trusting the Oireachtas to legislate.
    There are some people that treat sex flippantly but I think it would be fair to say for the vast majority, it is carefully considered or we would have birth rates through the roof.
    I disagree the ‘whole thing is eminently preventable’ as you put it or it would be the case and it isn’t. Contraception fails! Fact! There isn’t a single form of contraception, even tubal ligation, that carries 100% effectiveness other than total abstention. Men have 2 forms of contraception available typically. Condoms or a vasectomy! It isn’t so simple for women and there are so many different factors to consider and it can be trial and error to find the right one and sometimes that results in unwanted pregnancy. As a married woman, a mother and someone who has difficulty with many forms of contraception, I am quite educated in the reality of the options and pitfalls of the varying forms. I would recommend you speak to a doctor about every form of contraception, their effectiveness in preventing pregnancy, the side effects and costs involved. It’s quite enlightening when you get into it in more detail.
    I agree there needs to be more education about safe sex, contraceptive options and about biology actually as the ignorance of this is amazing. This isn’t just about personal responsibility – even though that is a factor, but there are many wanted pregnancies out there (I know first hand) where sometimes terminating is the best option for all involved, including the unborn. See this story here for an example of this https://www.herfamily.ie/pregnancy/i-will-never-get-over-it-anguished-mother-of-a-baby-with-ffa-294577?utm_content=buffer60779&utm_medium=Social+organic&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer
    Abortion is FAR from the easy way out. It is a painful and invasive process both physically and mentally and would never be taken lightly.
    Preventing unwanted pregnancy is not always possible no matter your best efforts and as long as that is the case, abortion will always be needed, whether we export the issue or not!

    6
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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 1:57 PM

    @Kevin Tyrrell: Did you bother to read my response at all or just decide to ignore it and spout on about education and responsibility again? I’m 100% behind educating our kids but it isn’t just about that. That is one element that has to be considered.

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    Mute MichaelandMary O'Grady
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    Jan 30th 2018, 2:11 PM

    @Sinead Mooney: babies have fathers it is their child also.

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    Mute Frank McGlynn
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    Jan 30th 2018, 4:26 PM

    @Sinead Mooney: If some men think that only women should vote then those men can stay at home. Nobody is forcing them to vote.

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    Mute The Bunk
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    Jan 30th 2018, 5:15 PM

    @Sinead Mooney: Unfortunately for you I’m a citizen of this country and I have a constitutional right to vote in this and all referendum as much as you would love to restrict that right. And I most certainly will be voting in this referendum as it is something which ultimately affects both men and women!

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 31st 2018, 4:55 PM

    @anthony seymour: I never said men were cruel and heartless. I don’t know where you got that from.

    1
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    Mute Ismise Máire
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:21 AM

    Leo varadkar – gay no kids prolife till he got into power
    Flanked by zappone – forigen national minister for some children – lesbian no kids
    Flanked by simon harris – prolife till he got into power no kids

    You couldnt make it up.

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    Mute Patricia Ellis Dunne
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:23 AM

    @Ismise Máire: they don’t have principles apparently, they blow with however they think the wind is

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    Mute J
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:33 AM

    @Ismise Máire: almost as bad as priests in the catholic, gay, no kids but also unelected.

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    Mute Christopher Doyle
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:33 AM

    @Ismise Máire: what’s your point, is it childless couples, gay, single should have no vote in the referendum.. U couldn’t make it up

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    Mute Cheeky Bums
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:34 AM

    @Ismise Máire: 2018 and some people (like you) believe a person’s nationality, sexual orientation or family status has an impact on whether they can have an opinion on abortion.

    “You couldn’t make up”

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    Mute Padraig Corcoran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:40 AM

    @Ismise Máire: To be fair they also have a right to speak as they to were also unborn at some point.

    28
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    Mute Stephen Cumbers
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:42 AM

    @Ismise Máire: so only straight, Irish born females with kids should get a vote in this Referendum ?

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    Mute Eamonn Leahy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:47 AM

    @Ismise Máire: So. What’s your point?

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    Mute Laura Walsh
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:50 AM

    @Ismise Máire: funny, weren’t straight people allowed vote in the marriage referendum? You couldn’t make it up.

    52
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    Mute Dermot Lane
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:52 AM

    @Ismise Máire: pro-life until he began to work in a hospital and see the consequences first hand of the eight amendment

    46
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    Mute Padraig Corcoran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:03 AM

    @Dermot Lane: Yes lots of babies. Terrible stuff.

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    Mute Laura Walsh
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:14 AM

    @Padraig Corcoran: women being forced to give birth to babies who had no chance or survival. Women being forced to give birth despite their life being at risk. Children, as young as 14, being forced to give birth. Those are the real life effects that you anti-choicers refuse to acknowledge.

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    Mute Clarissa
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:40 AM

    @Laura Walsh: no Laura, why do pro-choicer’s like you always have to use the most extreme examples of cases to push your views on how abortion should be legal. What about people that will use new abortion law as a form of contraception? How many abortions can one have? Does the tax payer foot the bill? Who pays for it? A fetus becomes a baby, becomes a person and an adult etc? Why is it okay to kill it? Before 12 weeks it still has the potential to be a life, why is it another persons “choice” to take that away. A toddler has potential to become an adult, is it morally okay to end that child’s life because it becomes an inconvenience to the parent?

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    Mute Stephen Cumbers
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:46 AM

    @John Twomey: are you accusing members of the LGBTQ community of being paedophiles ? Its bigoted comments and mindsets like yours that have this country the way it is !

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    Mute Laura Walsh
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:47 AM

    @Clarissa: are you honestly thick enough to believe that people would rather have an abortion than use contraception? Do you think it’s a decision that women take so incredibly lightly?
    And you’re right about the potential of life. Let’s ban condoms because they are preventing potential life. In fact, let’s ban men from masturbating because off all the wasted sperm.

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    Mute Clarissa
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:56 AM

    @Laura Walsh: you clearly don’t understand what I’m getting at. When will have to take personal responsibility for anything they do anymore? How is it a woman’s “right” to kill her unborn baby, just because it’s in your body for a short period of time? It’s not your life to take, it’s theirs. As soon as you fall pregnant then a life cycle has begun. Why should I as a taxpayer have to pay for your stupid choice to fall pregnant and go through an expensive procedure to get rid of an unwanted baby just because you can’t take responsibility for your actions.

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    Mute Laura Walsh
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:01 AM

    @Clarissa: are you still trying to decide whether you’re arguing against this as a moral or financial issue?
    If it’s financial, has it possibly occurred to you that maybe paying less money out on child benefits for 18 years for women who can’t afford to have children may work out cheaper in the long run?

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    Mute Padraig Corcoran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:16 AM

    @Laura Walsh: these hard cases are not even in the debate anymore.

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    Mute Clarissa
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:10 AM

    @Laura Walsh: yes I’m arguing both points. It is a financial and a moral issue? I’d rather pay for a living person than pay for the likes of you to kill your baby because you weren’t responsible. What’s your debate? That it’s okay to kill your baby because it would be an inconvenience to your life?

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    Mute Neal Ireland Hello.
    Favourite Neal Ireland Hello.
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:30 AM

    @Ismise Máire: “You couldn’t make this up”. Except you did. He was always gay, he just chose not to notify you about it.

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    Mute DJ François
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:36 AM

    @Ismise Máire: So what?

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:15 AM

    @Clarissa: ‘stupid choice’ Those 2 words there highlight to me just how naive you are about this whole debate. What about the women and also children that get pregnant by rape and incest? Is it a ‘stupid choice’ then to want to terminate the life inside that they had no say in being there? Would you force them to birth the offspring of the perpetrator that traumatised their life forever? Maybe they want to continue on with those pregnancies and fair play to them if they do but what if they simply can’t because their mental health is so affected, they can’t bear it?
    What about those who have been told explicitly that their much loved and wanted unborn baby is not going to survive. And I’m not talking about disabilities or where there isn’t certainty. I’m talking about where it is clinically impossible for the baby to survive birth? Some wish to continue but others simply can’t. What about the women with cancer diagnosis that find themselves either pregnant beforehand or get diagnosed while they’re already pregnant? Is it a ‘stupid choice’ then?
    You really have no idea what it is like to be in ANY of these situations because if you did, you wouldn’t have such a cold and myopic view.
    I suggest before you vote in this referendum that you simply meet and speak to people affected directly where the 8th only adds to their personal trauma and heartache. Terminating a pregnancy is never ever easy and it is never ever taken lightly.

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:22 AM

    @Clarissa: it must be a lovely thing to live up there with blinkers on and your head in the clouds.

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    Mute Clarissa
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    Jan 30th 2018, 2:28 PM

    @Kiera: Keira yet again, people like you use the total extreme cases to push your view on abortion. Yes I agree with you that if you are raped and of your baby is not going to survive or if it will have a lethal effect on the mother not to abort then yes I agree with you. But abortions just to have them because of poor responsibility and stupid choices is totally and utterly wrong. You’re killing a child because it is inconvenient for you and you don’t want to live with the consequence of your actions.

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    Mute Clarissa
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    Jan 30th 2018, 2:29 PM

    @Kiera: it’s you my friend that has to blinkers on. You just don’t want to admit that you are actually killing a potential individual

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    Mute Clarissa
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    Jan 30th 2018, 2:31 PM

    @Blants: then who is going to stand up for the unborn children? Who is going to stand up against the leftists thinking all their life choices should be upheld b the government and the people living in the same country as them. Why should I pay for some women’s abortions coz they were drunk or just couldn’t be arsed getting the morning after pill etc etc

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 3:17 PM

    @Clarissa: but as long as the 8th is in place, nothing will change! So even in those restrictive cases that I speak of, they still exist!

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    Mute Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:33 AM

    Why is there no rights at all for the man in this situation. The unborn no rights- the man no rights. The woman 100%rights. ?

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:35 AM

    @Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN: it’s her body

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    Mute Aoife Gregg-Anderson
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:37 AM

    @Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN: does a man have a womb? No, woman’s body, HER CHOICE

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    Mute Anne Marie Devlin
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:49 AM

    @Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN: Men’s rights are fully protected as 1. They have an equal right to vote on this matter and 2. Men’s right to life, medical treatment has never been questioned.

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    Mute Michael
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:56 AM

    @Mickey Fennessy: If I hear this ‘it’s her body’ argument again……

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:02 AM

    @Michael: ok so “it’s her body”

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    Mute saoirse janneau
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:34 AM

    @Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN: you have a point. Based on most of the female pro abortionists here I’m surprised they’re not ranting and raving that men will have a vote on the ammendment at all.

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    Mute Gavin Conran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:20 AM

    @thewolf: You do know that no contraceptive is 100% right? That a woman can take every precaution and still end up pregnant too. and i won’t even go into the whole rape side of things, so no, i do not accept that “It’s her choice”. In a lot of cases it just isn’t.

    But no harm i guess, flights to the UK are cheap enough so women will do as they have been doing all along and abort there.

    Same result at the end of the day – only difference being they are unable to do so in their homeland with the support of family and an aftercare service because of some backwards view held that we can decide to force a women through pregnancy while the rest of the world continues to look on in utter disgust.

    If your view is prolife, great, don’t abort – and well done to you, nobody is forcing anything on you.

    And if someone else decides for whatever reason to abort, well then that’s just none of your business so worry about your own problems and let others live their own lives by their own beliefs.

    My personal view is simple on this – who am i to tell any woman that she has to give birth to an unwanted child?

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    Mute Johnny Bellew
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:40 AM

    @Michael: Yes the “it’s her body” crowd conveniently fail to mention that there is actually two bodies involved. There is the child growing within the womb which is a separate human entity. But it’s best not to think about that when the intention is to kill it.

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    Mute DJ François
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:41 AM

    @Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN: Yes. Next question.

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:21 AM

    @Mickey Fennessy:

    The unborn child has its own body too…..this is what is being killed.

    The unborn requires gestation within the mothers body, but is a unique human life with DNA from the mother and father.

    It is also the fathers child, and he should have some say when killing it is being considered by the mother.

    Like everything in law, it is about balancing of rights of different individuals – the mother, the father, and the child.

    Reducing it to a “woman body” is stupid, wrong, inaccurate, disingenuous, false, deceptive and immoral.
    What sort of people use arguments like that? perhaps it is a mirror of some kind

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    Mute Lily
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    Jan 30th 2018, 3:02 PM

    @Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN:

    Welcome back!!!

    It’s been a long time ole pal!!

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    Mute Capt. ADEBAYO FLYNN
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:47 PM

    @Aoife Gregg-Anderson: her body carrying their child not her child alone. So why is there 100% womens rights when there are three pople in the equation.

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    Mute Patricia Finnegan Newell
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    Mar 15th 2018, 12:23 PM

    @Mickey Fennessy: ‘Her body’ but who does the child belong to? I have given birth to two children but I don’t own them. No one owns a child; just try keeping one out of school for more than 20 days in the year, or do anything that the government or the rest of society frowns upon, and you’ll soon find out.

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    Mute John Campbell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:19 AM

    A proud day for Ireland? I think not. We get to decide on whether an unknown number of unborn children can live or be destroyed. Sickening.

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    Mute Sean Conway
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:32 AM

    @John Campbell: But they are going to britain to have it done…

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:34 AM

    @John Campbell: not as sickening as men dictating to women on what’s right and wrong for them.

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    Mute Hugh Jass
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:54 AM

    @John Campbell: run along and play with your rosery beads and leave the rational people have a discussion.

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    Mute Dermot Lane
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:55 AM

    @Mickey Fennessy: I hate when people say that, about men dictating to women. Fair enough most of our politicians are men, but I’d say there more women in the so called ‘pro-life’ movements. It’s more a generational thing I think.

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    Mute John Campbell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:02 AM

    @Mickey Fennessy: can we expect then that you will abstain from voting in the Referendum?

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:04 AM

    @Dermot Lane: more women exactly men don’t get pregnant

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    Mute John Campbell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:06 AM

    @Hugh Jass: as usual, whatever your real identity is, you resort to personal insults rather than debate a contrary opinion. BTW, I don’t know what a rosery beads is! Is it some sort of flower?

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:16 AM

    @John Campbell: nope as I want women to have “choice” I’m voting for “choice”
    U get it??

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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:48 AM

    @Mickey Fennessy: they already have plenty of choices not to get pregnant…anyone ever heard of contraception??? In my opinion we should legislate only for FFA, threat to the mother’s life, or proven rape or incest. Anything else is consensual sex in which conteacrption prevents the pregnancy in the first place. All women already have plenty of choices…why do they need to abort a life because they didn’t take that responsibility on themselves or have their partners do it…or better yet both be practicing safe sex. Sex isn’t a game afterall…it has consequences…pregnancy. All that abortion is is locking the barn door after the horse has bolted…and then shooting the horse!!!

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:41 AM

    @Kevin Tyrrell: Because contraception is not always 100% safe, And making someone raise an unwanted child because a condom broke is not exactly a sane thing to do. But I do rather your flavour of pro life.. At least you out and say you don’t trust women to make decisions about their lives and you think they should be punished for having sex when they are not trying to precreate.

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:18 AM

    @Rob Cahill:

    The question is about rights of unborn – both male and female children, and whether or not they have any protections. Currently Ireland is the most progressive country – with constitutional recognition and rights to life. in 50 years all countries will have it.

    This is a regressive step – any argument framed with “this a women issue” is a lie. Children are the product of a mother and father, and the killing of an unborn should have input from both parents.

    It is not the woman body only, there is also the body of the unborn human, this should be protected like any other life.

    Extreme cases exist obviously, and some exceptions are required, but in very limited circumstances.

    This debate will be very interesting, and likely going to be full of misinformation, bullying and outright lies by the pro abortion side. No doubt reflected on the pro life side too…….with all meaningful and rational content removed to the fringes…….

    we will see

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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:39 AM

    @Rob Cahill: I’m not about punishing anyone. That’s the point. Punishment should be entirely preventable. Why??? Because if people actually took the whole realm of sexual intercourse as a serious thing with actual consequences instead of just being complete morons about it then these situations need not arise. Its only when people take too lightly the consequences of unprotected sex and the chickens come home to roost that panic sets in…and the end of the world is nigh. The whole thing is eminently preventable…and if both parties practice contraception…both the condom and the pill or the myriad other forms of female contraception then there should be very little consequence from consensual sex…and people are free to have all the fun they want. Because seriously if women and men actually just took that single responsibility then this should be a non issue…because there is all the means necessary to provide protection to prevent unwanted pregnancy from consensual sex. And that is an entirely justifiable way to look at this. Anything else is just spouting ideology. Why arent we having that debate??? Oh yeah…because its about taking responsibility for your own life and choices therein…and responsibility has become a very dirty word. And that is all this is about when it boils down to it…the pro-choice agenda on the basis of unlimited access to abortion is just anti-responsibility dressed up in the victimhood of those who are ultimately the consequences of poor choices. And Im not saying men dont have any reduced responsibility in this either…if you are reckless enough to get a girl pregnant well then you have to face the music too…and support that mother and child. Men and Women need to stop seeking the easy way out of every situation and really we need to be pushing for people to take more responsibility for their lives…not less. Its very very easy. Medical science has bent over backwards to allow men and women to have safe protected sex…and yet there is still a need for abortion. Thats my point. Society needs to tackle that problem and devote resources to it, and debate that, and make that a central part of this entire debate…and Im beyond puzzled why it isnt. Because if pregnancy is discussed as a situation which is entirely preventable by contraception, and as such would alleviate the need for abortion, then why isnt that choice, that responsibility being pushed with the same force by both sides. I think that would be an agenda everyone be they pro-choice or pro-ife could agree to get behind. Wouldnt it???? And we wouldnt have to descend into the farcical circus that is already beginning. But hey…thats just probably too sensible to ever be done.

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    Mute Hapax
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:23 PM

    @Sean Conway: Sean, if abortion is legalized here, then you can count on it being twice as expensive (like everything else) compared to going to the UK.

    If it is not subsidized by the government, then women will probably still travel to the UK because it would be cheaper.

    If it is subsidized by the government, under Health, then I’m sure the government will be happy to divert funds to this. Forget the patients on trolleys crisis for the moment – isn’t there plenty of money in the Dept of Health’s budget for an abortion service?

    Perhaps, since patients already travel to the UK for certain medical procedures funded by the government, the solution for the Dept of Health would be to send women to the UK for abortion, because we don’t have the resources/infrastructure here?

    Who knows. The point is, repealing the 8th doesn’t necessarily mean that women will stop travelling to the UK.

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    Mute MichaelandMary O'Grady
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    Jan 30th 2018, 2:23 PM

    @Mickey Fennessy: ‘choice’to KILL their baby

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    Mute Tom&Gerry
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    Jan 30th 2018, 5:34 PM

    @Hapax: excellent points there Hapax.

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    Mute Colette Kearns
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:13 AM

    Who on earth thought up the idea of making a rape victim pass a “test” to see if they would qualify for an abortion! Thank god someone had the common sense to scrap that idea!

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    Mute Caped Crusader
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:17 AM

    @Colette Kearns: There is legal and legislative hurdles to overcome in the case of pregnancy by rape which led to it being scraped. Everyone is entitled to a trial by jury, by enabling women to procure an abortion based on a rape accusation then we would require a guilty conviction of the accused at trial and this would need to be obtained within weeks of the accusation. That isnt possible. To allow a doctor carry out an abortion without a trial would ensure the accused could not receive a fair trial as the doctor will have essentially told the jury the accused is guilty by carrying out the abortion. The only way around the rape issue is to allow unrestricted abortion to 12 weeks. While for a genuine rape case nobody would argue against this, leaving the door open for mothers to terminate for socio-economic reasons may be too much for people to handle.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:32 AM

    All this “stellar” work done by gov on the referendum is masking two big reports that came out yesterday, that we have the worst public health system in the EU, and the jobpath scheme is a massive failure with only 18% of participants securing full time employment. No coincidence I’m sure!

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    Mute Michael
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:55 AM

    @Adrian: that’s what Leo’s spin doctors get paid for. Push the real truth to one side.

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    Mute Mark H
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:45 AM

    The 8th is not fit for purpose. Why should people be forced to go to the UK to terminate a non-viable pregnancy. It’s traumatic enough hearing your child will not survive to then be forced to carry it. On the 12 week rule. It’s a bit much for Me, but I also don’t think my personal concerns should be imposed on someone else against their will. I might not agree with it, but I’m not in their situation. You will have people take advantage of it for the wrong reasons but they would probably have gone to the UK anyway. You can’t legislate for everything. You give guidance in the law and hope peoples morals are just.

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:22 AM

    @Mark H:

    Flying to the UK is not a big deal – it is as easy as driving to cork or galway

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:29 AM

    @HelloGoogleTracking: have you made this journey having been told such horrific news that your much wanted baby will not live? The tragedy massively compounds everything and all that ‘easy’ journey is utterly unbearable, sad, anxious, costly, lonely, worrying, difficult and heartbreaking when it’s for such tragic circumstances
    All it tells women is that “There is the door, we can’t help you. Off you go and book your tickets. Get on a plane with the happy couples, the hen parties, the stag parties, the families going on holiday. Sure you may as well make the best of it and have a little mini-break to yourself. How lovely!”
    Easy to travel when you have a lovely reason to travel. What a feckless thing to say.

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    Mute Richard Carroll
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    Jan 30th 2018, 3:12 PM

    @Mark H: Well said.

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    Mute Mark H
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    Jan 30th 2018, 3:14 PM

    @anthony seymour: what about the parents? Most in this scenario would do anything for a child they could love. For many the sad truth is their child is not going to make a full term or cannot survive outside the womb. For some continuing with the pregnancy is too painful and upsetting. I would not consider this “killing” or murder as some do. It is not a situation anyone wants to find themselves in and to label someone a killer for choosing to terminate in those circumstances in both cold and some what clueless. Every person handles grief differently.

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    Mute Emma Murphy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:29 AM

    “The abortion rights campaign opposes gestational limits” (https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/08/06/abortion-faqs/)

    A vote for repeal the 8th is a vote for:

    - taxpayer-funded abortion on demand, openly unrestricted for 12 weeks initially but subject to increase in the future. 12 weeks is just the start as they have openly admitted.
    - sex-selective abortion
    - abortion on the grounds of disability
    - no term limits at all for vague health grounds

    Save lives, Save the 8th, Vote No.

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    Mute Gavin Conran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:51 AM

    @Emma Murphy:

    *Taxpayer funded abortions are cheaper than paying children allowance no? Its a nice try, but you should really reconsider keeping this one as part of your campaign of scare tactics. It just reeks of desperation.

    *As for sex-selective abortions, hopefully some mothers out there can help on this, but i had thought you have to wait until weeks 16 – 20 before you can tell the sex of a baby. So other example of you just talking out of your arse.

    *Abortion on the grounds of disability – One of the reasons some of the experts that were brought in made a point to recommend abortions further even than 12 weeks out is the time needed to detect a lot of disabilities.

    So i call bullshit here also.

    I will admit i do not fully understand everything involved so i am taking my time to learn everything i can and fully understand the issue. Clearly you cannot say the same.

    Vote Yes, give women the right to make their own decisions, not force decisions upon them by people like Emma here who clearly doesn’t even understand the debate she will soon be voting in.

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    Mute Emma Murphy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:52 AM

    @Gavin Conran:

    It seems as if you are the ignorant one Gavan. As a nurse, and someone who has done a lot of research into this before forming my position, I understand this issue exceptionally well.

    Pre-natal screening tests such as Panorma and Harmony can identify the sex of the baby and any chromosomal abnormalities from as early as 9 weeks. That’s a fact.

    It’s clear that the alternative to the 8th Amendment is to give politicians a blank cheque to legalise abortion on demand at any stage of pregnancy. One only has to think of a scenario where the likes of Zappone holds the balance of power and demands a law with no term limits which is what she called for in her Dáil speech on the subject.

    I believe that the Irish people will adopt the compassionate position and support maintaining legal protection for the unborn child and not trust politicians on this issue, many of whom would sell their own mother to get into power and would certainly have no issue declaring open season on the unborn.

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    Mute Gavin Conran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 4:52 PM

    @Emma Murphy: Am i now?
    As a nurse then, please do tell how many people are made aware of the sex prior to week 12? Would you say its a lot?

    My understanding (and yes, from people that work in the health service) is that this is not something that even comes up until week 16+

    Its just more scaremongering on the part of the pro-life group – nothing new here i think.

    You say “It’s clear that the alternative to the 8th Amendment is to give politicians a blank cheque to legalise abortion on demand at any stage of pregnancy.”

    No -its not clear – in infact, perhaps rather than saying anything is clear you might try saying instead…”In my opinion” as that’s pretty much what it is, your opinion.

    Please do not try to post opinion as fact.

    I believe the Irish people will, just like we demonstrated with the same sex marriage referendum, that we have matured as a people and the mentality of the nation has shifted from the backwards views that a few of you still hold whereas you think its right to force your opinion on others in such a way.

    If you don’t want to abort – then don’t – but stay out of other peoples business and let them make there own choices.

    I would love to hear your thoughts on forcing rape victims through term for a baby them scream out at the top of their lungs they do not want to have. An additional 9 months of torture on top of an already despicable act – but what do you care right?

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    Mute Gavin Conran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 4:54 PM

    @anthony seymour: I am part of a system that is rightfully pulling itself further and further away from the Church and its backwards ways.

    I am part of a system that wants to allow a woman to make her own choice.

    Who are you to make it for her Anthony?

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    Mute Jim Kenny
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:26 PM

    @Gavin Conran: Abortions purpose is to kill the child no other reason thats what you want us to vote for. NO THANKS

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    Mute Jim Kenny
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:32 PM

    @Emma Murphy: well said Emma but Minister Zappone did already do a deal with Enda Kenny to support goverment in return for referendum thats why we are here,its a pity he didnt break that promise like so many others they broke ….but they would lose their jobs and ego power trips then i guess

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    Mute Ismise Máire
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:57 AM

    Of course gay childless one legged teansgender multi fath multi national whatever can vote.

    My point is children are not priority for these people.

    My point is leo and simon are morally corrupt liars who will say anything to retain power.

    And finally that a person who is for minister for children in ireland
    – should be minister for All Children – no matter where they are located.

    Like i said you couldnt make it up

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    Mute Alt Right Crybaby
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:59 AM

    @Ismise Máire: Based on your comment, lack of compassion, and your relegious fanaticism, it is you who is morally corrupt.

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    Mute James O'Nolan
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:02 AM

    @Ismise Máire: How do you know children aren’t a priority to them? Ridiculous conclusion that just because you don’t have children they are not a priority. Stop making stuff up.

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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:49 AM

    @Ismise Máire: Well done! You have shown us what you think of people dith disabilities. Also we now know that you live in a strange bubble of where only certain people, chosen by you, can have kids. Telk us more. ” Pass a hammer lads, there’s another nail in the way. “

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    Mute Gavin Conran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:33 AM

    @Ismise Máire: “should be minister for All Children – no matter where they are located.”

    So our minister of children should be minster for all children everywhere?

    Well, i guess that’s something we could bring up with the UN and see what they think about it, but my gut feeling on this is that a lot of not all countries would disagree with your assessment.

    In regards to who can vote – can i ask did you vote in the same sex marriage referendum?

    I did, i am not gay but i voted none the less – and i voted Yes – as ho the hell am i to tell a couple they cannot marry.

    Likewise, this time around, who the hell am i to tell a woman she has to give birth?
    Who are any of us to make that decision for another person?

    This isn’t some new concept – this has been occurring for many years in countries around the world. Irish women has been travelling for many years for these terminations. So nothing new.

    The arrogance of some people is just, well, you just couldn’t make it up.

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    Mute DJ François
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:42 AM

    @Ismise Máire: Your point is crap. Gay couples can have children and adopt.

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    Mute RMcG
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:22 AM

    @Ismise Máire: I know plenty of Paediatricians who don’t have children, do you think children are not a priority for them either?

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    Mute James O'Nolan
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:59 AM

    If agree with abortion in the case of rape and agree rape victims shouldn’t have to take a test, then you should agree with the 12 week rule. That’s what it’s essentially there for.

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    Jan 30th 2018, 11:26 AM

    @James O’Nolan:

    Hard cases make bad law – case in point.

    Using extreme and rare examples to make wide ranging laws always is a smokescreen

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    Mute Tertullian
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:11 AM

    Mark my words: the referendum will be defeated.

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    Mute Susan Adair Farrelly
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:01 PM

    @Tertullian: mark my words: no it won’t.

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    Mute Emma Murphy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:27 PM

    @Tertullian: I agree and the 9/2 odds of a no vote from Boyle Sports is a steal.

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    Mute Jim Kenny
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:33 PM

    @Tertullian: hope your right

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    Mute Colin Morris
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:18 AM

    Unrestricted access until 22 weeks would be better.

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    Mute saoirse janneau
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:43 AM

    Please note FFA abortion will be available right up to birth if the commitee findings are enacted. This isn’t mentioned. This would bring ireland into almost top position in europe regarding abortion legislation. Also important to note. Most countries in Europe have an abortion rate of 250 per 1000 live births. This represents a figure of 25% of conceptions are aborted. Translated that would increase the figure here to 18000 abortions per year as there are 74000 live births a year.
    No differentiation between countries in North and south. Sweden 331. UK 244. Greece 250 etc. Portugal 232.

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    Mute Gavin Conran
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:35 AM

    @saoirse janneau: Source for all this info please? You will have to excuse me here for not taking you at your word.

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    Mute Anthony Gallagher
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:55 AM

    by the repealing the eighth, we are opening the floodgates to the mass slaughter of unborn children ,it will be used as a contraceptive measure and funded by the tax payer .in all the decades since the foundation of the state ,i have never seen so much moral cowardice by so many of our political leaders ,populists ,opportunist,and heartless men and women, that can in some sick way see the destruction of life as a modern good .The taking of life for selfish,economic ,political convenience, tells me we have sold out all sense of human dignity ,and natural justice .pathetic .

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:30 PM

    @Anthony Gallagher: early abortion is akin to an early miscarriage and is quite painful and frightening. Having had 3 early miscarriages myself, I would never want to experience that again and women don’t enjoy or even feel the ability to tolerate this experience. Later miscarriage requires surgery typically or the experience of having to labour the delivery. This is highly intrusive, time consuming and incredibly invasive physically but also on their lives.
    None of the above options are more appealing that taking a pill, inserting an IUD or IUS, getting an implant, wearing a patch or just putting a condom on. Why anyone would choose abortion as a form of contraception is beyond me. If that even ever were the case, the numbers would be extremely small because no one in their right mind would use abortion as a form of contraception.
    This argument holds no weight.

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    Mute Anthony Gallagher
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    Jan 30th 2018, 1:37 PM

    @Kiera: you miss the point completely ,what happened to you was a natural event ,an i am sorry that has been your experience ,it must always be traumatic i am sure .however the vast majority of abortion will be healthy unborn children ,that are through no fault of their own ,will be ripped out for selfish ,economic ,social reasons .nature designed you to carry ,to protect ,to give life ,.unborn children are our collective future ,they bring hope ,we do not have the right to take life ,never .

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    Mute Kiera
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    Jan 30th 2018, 3:27 PM

    @Anthony Gallagher: how can you be sure? What evidence do you have to back that statement? And besides…my situation will continue to happen as long as the 8th exists. My trauma and my baby’s trauma were unnecessarily extended. This is our only chance to stop it happening. Why should women like me continue to suffer. I am not the only one who has suffered in this way. My experience and that of my troubled unborn baby was difficult but it didn’t have to be. I have PTSD as a result of that horrific time in my life and you are punishing people like me because you think that abortion will be an act of convenience for others.
    I did not miss the point. I totally understand your feelings of the unborn and I am fully aware that abortion means the extinguishing of a potential life. But that potential life is not equal to mine. It is relevant but not equal. I am a living breathing walking contribution to society and my human rights were violated because I didn’t have the means or health to travel to give my baby a honourable end and an end to mine and my family’s suffering!

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    Mute saoirse janneau
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    Jan 30th 2018, 8:48 AM

    Also realistically this will set our hospitals into a final tail spin. The 600k waiting list is set to get longer and longer given that abortions will be prioritised due to time limit constraints. Harris thinking long and deep as usual.

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    Mute Hapax
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:45 PM

    @saoirse janneau: I agree. Like many medical procedures, the government will likely fund women to travel to the UK for an abortion – because there simply isn’t an abortion service here and it would be too expensive to create one.

    Oh wait…I forgot, this is all about stopping women from travelling to the UK.

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    Mute Go on go on
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    Jan 30th 2018, 12:46 PM

    Varadkar says after twelve weeks abortion would be only in exceptional circumstances, and also it would be, ” safe legal and rare”. If that’s the case we are asked to believe the 3735 women who went to England would have been catered for under the 12 wk liberalisation. No way. Irish Times report of June 2015 said that of these 15% were over 12 weeks. Of the 3735 that means 560 were over 12 wks. Many of these 20 wks and over. The clamour for “compassion” for these would be immediate and media supported. We are being given the soft sell on this. Abortion on demand for all stages until full term is the logical unstated objective.

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    Mute Michael
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:45 AM

    Click bate. Journal into repeats now.

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    Mute Michael
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:48 AM

    @Michael: *Bait

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    Mute blue exile
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    Jan 30th 2018, 10:14 AM

    Leo finally gets off the fence. He’ll be picking splinters out our his derriere till may.

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 7:54 AM

    Lots of aul farts worried about the rise of women’s rights the cheek of the bitches

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Jan 30th 2018, 9:01 AM

    @thewolf: ha ha I like to think of women as the equal sex and hopefully most voters will

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    Mute Patricia Finnegan Newell
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    Mar 15th 2018, 12:30 PM

    People can travel abroad to commit acts which are a criminal offence in this country at any time; euthanasia, under age marrage, prohibited drug use, polygamy (just call her your sister/cousin here), should we legalise these too in order to save them the journey?

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    Mute Genevieve osullivan
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    Feb 28th 2018, 1:39 PM

    I support the Abortion referendum because we have never really given a well supported alternative to Mothers.

    1.Lone parent allowance is less than 2 euro an hour. A nanny or carer would be paid at least 10 euro an hour.

    2. Child benefit is being reduced and hacked every year. And if we ever truly believed that the unborn had the same rights as the born or of the mother then a child benefit would have been made available to the parent during pregnancy.

    3. Parenting is a 24/7 job. It requires a lot of money, a lot of support and a lot of dedication. I am in favour of choice for women so i remain in favour of safe and efficient abortions and medical care for all who want or need it.

    But i also think that we could drastically reduce the need for abortions by elevating parenting to a healthy supported salaried career. With strong assurances that all children born here will get good care, good food, good living conditions and a good education.
    Mothers should be worth their weight in gold

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    Mute Mary Flaherty
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    Jan 31st 2018, 1:51 PM

    This 12 weeks abortion proposal is a Government distraction.

    The referendum is about removing the right to life of all unborn children right up to the very moment of birth and that means his or her head has come fully out of the birth canal. If 8th Amendment is gone the Government can have abortion to up 20 weeks 24 weeks or whenever, it can.

    If it decides it will allow abortion for kids with DS up to birth like in England, it can.

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