We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
AN ASSOCIATION WHICH represents some 2000 GPs says its members are “outraged” that they will be expected to be the main contact for women to secure terminations under the government’s planned legislation.
The Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment recommended that unrestricted abortion should be available up to 12 weeks of pregnancy and felt this should be achieved “through a GP-led service”.
This is the approach the government is planning to take under legislation being prepared by Health Minister Simon Harris.
But in statement this evening, the National Association of General Practitioners (NAGB) said this is being done “without consultation” and the it is seeking “immediate engagement”with the minister.
“I was alarmed to hear the minister’s comments and presumption that the State would direct GPs to lead an abortion service without any engagement with our members to discuss the implications of this notion,” NAGP president Dr Emmet Kerin said this evening.
For the minister to suggest that our profession should lead out an abortion service without consultation with our member GPs is an affront to our profession and could pose yet another strain on the provision of general practice healthcare services.
The involvement of GPs in early-stage pregnancy was discussed at the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment
The Irish College of General Practitioners gave evidence before the committee and outlined that for the majority of pregnant women, antenatal care and support before 20 weeks’ gestation is provided by GPs alone.
“When a pregnancy is unwanted, Irish GPs support and provide evidence-based care for women through this difficult experience,” ICGP’s Dr Brendan O’Shea told the committee.
TheJournal.ie has sought comment form the Department of Health on the NAGPs comments.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
This seems to happen more than it should. Why does the state think GPs work for them, are they confused with the UK system or something?
@Liam Doyle: They only got paid €540m from the state last year. Are you the same Liam Doyle that flunked High Babies? https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/540m-paid-to-gps-by-hse-last-year-money-well-spent-says-harris-1.3201371
@Royston Fitzpatrick: so? The state can’t assign duties to private businesses, end of. If I’m a building contractor that has enjoyed generous state contracts to build hospitals in the past, can the state demand I build another hospital now, whether I’m willing or able being irrelevant, and I don’t even get consulted on the remuneration I will receive for the provision of this service, instead the state simply refers to funds paid to me for previous projects? That’s how stupid your comment is.
@Liam Doyle: yeah but the GPs get paid that much every year so your analogy about a consultant who was paid for previous projects didn’t add up for me. He who pays the piper…
@Sean: they’re paid that money every year to provide healthcare to people who can’t pay for their own healthcare, it is not charity, it is payment for the provision of services. if you want them to provide additional services you need to ask them, and appropriately pay them, you can’t just force them.
@Liam Doyle: So much factually wrong with what you are saying. The GP Medical Card lists are Public patient lists – not private patient lists.
These are not contractors.
A GP providing a service to Medical Card holder is acting as a public servant.
I know because three close family members are GPs.
@Brinster: they’re acting as public servants but not employed by the public service? That’s makes them contractors, they have a contract with the state to provide a service on behalf of the state. You want to change the terms of the contract you can’t do it unilaterally.
@Liam Doyle: But you do get to define the terms. And if abortion advice falls into the general definition of provision of healthcare, then they can’t refuse to provide this, any more than they could refuse to see people with suspected cancer.
@Brinster: not really in practical terms. If the state sets the terms of service of the contract in a manner which GPs find unacceptable then they won’t remain part of the medical card scheme. The doctors are the ones with the desirable skills at the end of the day, and you can’t force them to use those skills for your benefit against their will.
@Liam Doyle: If legislated they got to help. Probably no more than giving a referral. If they can’t do this, well then they can emigrate to a country that meets their requirements.
@psychiatrist: no, they don’t “got to help” unless they are appropriately paid. Doctors don’t have to treat medical card patients, they can stay out of the
scheme. You can’t force people to do what you want, or demand they emigrate if they refuse to bend to your will, you deluded little totalitarian.
@psychiatrist: No, they don’t “got to help” as you so elegantly put it. Doctors run private practises & are at the pin of their collars in many parts of Ireland to keep the show on the road as it is. Yes they do some work for the government but that is by agreement. No agreement no work.
Not to mention those GPs who will refuse to be involved because they don’t agree with abortion & there will be many of those. Do you propose forcing them into exile as well?
@Royston Fitzpatrick: So 134k per GP to employ staff, rent premises, but equipment, pay bills, IT etc. Too much do you reckon???
@psychiatrist: Minister Harris tweeted this am according to RTÉ morning programme that GPs will be able to opt out of provision of abortion services. Also there will be a conscience clause presumably for all care personnel otherwise it would be discriminatory.
No one should be forced to provide abortion related services.
GPs should be allowed opt out of abortion advice and information on ethical/philosophical/religious grounds if it conflicts with their moral position.
Conscientious objectors so to speak.
@Niccolo Saccho: It’s not an ethical issue they have here it’s a resources issue. Basically they’d be more than happy provide the service for more money..
@Royston Fitzpatrick:
Moral stances are positive forces in society. Thank you for agreeing……….
@Vigo the Carpathian:
You’re probably right there Vigo. But there will be Christian/Muslim/religious GPs who will have a moral dilemna on the issue of abortion. It’s their predicament I’m addressing here.
@Royston Fitzpatrick: Change the record.
@thewolf: It’s humour.
@Niccolo Saccho: It doesn’t matter what religion they are. Whatever it is, that’s their own personal beliefs but they still have to do their job. You keep your work life & your personal life separate.
@Keith McDonagh:
‘ You keep your work life & your personal life separate’
Unless you’re a HSE consultant.
People with strong moral convictions are primarily guided by those principles which can result in ethical dilemnas.
Euthanasia and traditional medicine can also fall into that category.
@Niccolo Saccho: And? If it’s what someone wants then it should be their decision to make so the service should be available to them & there should be people there to help them with it, regardless of what they believe & if they let their own beliefs get the better of them, maybe they shouldn’t be working in the medical profession.
@Keith McDonagh: Doesnt happen.
Im seeking sterilisation at 30 to avoid pregnancy 100%. Consultant i was referred to rang my gp to say that she wouldnt help me with sterilisation as she felt i was too young, but would instead talk to me about getting pregnant soon.
Basically, pushing the belief that i need to have children.. I mean, if im too young to make the life changing decision to mot have kids, why am i old enough to have them?
@Niccolo Saccho: Can’t help you there, 55eur when you’re ready..
@Mirabelle Stonegate: I know it doesn’t happen but that shouldn’t be the case. If it’s what you want then the Consultant should keep her own opinions to herself & do it for you, no question.
@Royston Fitzpatrick: or any other man for that matter!
@Niccolo Saccho: i remember a shop refused to bake a cake. They got in some hot water over their religious beliefs.
@Keith McDonagh: There is no reason why they should keep their work and their personal beliefs separate, particularly if they disagree with killing. If you don’t like it, tough. Go to another GP that has no hangups about killing. It’s as simple as that.
@Mirabelle Stonegate: Friend of mine got a vasectomy at 24 in Ireland. Never looked back and is eternally grateful to the doctor. Is it not unethical for a doctor to refuse treatment?
but surely whether you’re for or against abortion you’d have to agree that the first port of call for a woman thinking about an abortion is her local doctor?
@Dean Anderson: This isn’t about a moral dilemma for GPs…it’s a case of ‘whats in it for us’ ? and ‘how much are you paying us’
@Fred Croydon: work for nothing? they get paid for every visit no matter the issue is. whether that time is used up discussing and querying an abortion or discussing and querying a back pain, it’s the same time, it’s one appointment, one cost. ffs work for nothing . hah
@Fred Croydon: I suspect that Liam works at the Gardiner street branch as we used to say ;)
What about the hippocratic oath to do the utmost to maintain human life. Our Taoiseach who happens to be a DOCTOR seems to have forgotten his oath. Worse still he is assuming all doctors will do the same. There is YEARS LONG waiting lists for mental health, eye surgery, child services, hip ops, catteracts, MRI’s to detect cancer. Etc etc etc. And Dr Leo, wants to bump abortions above that. Disgraceful. Some Doctor you are Leo..
@Sinead Hanley: Yeah, better to ship them off to the UK to deal with. I assume you had no issues when it was your choice.
@Sinead Hanley: The Hippocratic oath is no longer taken.
@Sinead Hanley: can you get those services ‘quicker’ if you have money or private medical insurance ? This is about a woman getting prescribed the abortion pills,going back to her own home and ending her pregnancy…try harder..
@Bryan Whaley: no one is shipping them off to the UK, I hate the way pro abortionists refer to women in crisis pregnancy as if they were cattle, cargo or undesirables.
@eric nelligan: you pro illegal aborts & pro surgical aborts treat women that way…
@Paul Kelly: That would completely explain Irish doctors attitude to healthcare and patients who are years on waiting lists.
@Lovely Man: you are dead right. I don’t care. I’m just interested in money, golf and foreign holidays.
It’s outrageous that GP’s have to provide care to their female patients, outrageous! Have they all just woken up from a coma that began in 1983?
@Royston Fitzpatrick: they don’t really “have” to provide care to anyone, they are private businesses and if the state wants them to take on any responsibility that should otherwise be provided by the state then they first need to ask them, and then need to pay them.
@Liam Doyle: what percentage of gp visits do you think are paid by the state?
@Dave O Keeffe: irrelevant. they are private businesses, the state cannot simply assign duties to private businesses. If they want them to provide a service they need to ask, and if the businesses are willing they set a price which the state pays.
@Liam Doyle: at least we agree that it’s a responsibility that should be provided by the state. No, I see your point and it’s a valid one but since when have GPs picked and chosen what areas of health are they provide?
@Dave O Keeffe: they don’t seem to be doing that now, they’re saying they should be consulted about future responsibilities being assigned to them. This doesn’t only seem a reasonable position, it seems the only viable position that can be taken.
@Liam Doyle: so basically we agree on everything but the state paying. It should be under the same conditions as any GP visit.
@Dave O Keeffe: if the GPs agree to the terms, sure. That would have to be negotiated, which is difficult to do if they’re not even consulted.
@Liam Doyle: They will be paid by the patient or under the medical card scheme for the consultation. The same as in every other consultation.
@Liam Doyle: Incorrect to the max. A doctor is absolutely obliged to provide care to any and all patients and persons.
I don’t think this means they want GPs to perform the abortions. Is that what they’re thinking it means??
It surely means the GP is the person’s first port of call for the confirmation of pregnancy, options available, making the referral, prescribing that pill, following up aftercare as needed.
@Clare Love: No lcare they want GP’s to provide the service as well. If it was just referrals I don’t think many of any would have an issue. They want the GP surgeries to be the place most are done.
Doctors complaining – well I never………..
@Larry Doyle: such biting wit from the great unwashed
While I am pro choice nobody should be forced to do something against their beliefs. They can refer to another doctor if that is the case
@phil: It’s not about beliefs it’s about money and resources…
Another Government own goal. What did Leo say , safe ,legal and rare. He is a doctor , did it not occur to him that GP’s at the very least should have been consulted about this as a priority from day one since apparently the service is totally dependent on their co operation .
He must know that not all GP’s were prepared to provide this service as abortion is against their sincerely held beliefs and their oath “Do No Harm “ There was a time when GP’s would not prescribe the pill believe it or not.
@Aine O Connor: Whatever about a doctors personal beliefs (A) The the phrase “first do no harm” appears nowhere in the Hippocratic Oath and (B) Irish doctors do not take the Oath..it’s a myth that persists for some reason…
@Vigo the Carpathian:
Leaving oaths aside , a good doctor will treat sick people to the best of his or her ability. If a woman is pregnant and wants an abortion that is a choice . But she is not ill if the pregnancy is progressing without any complications.
A doctors job is to monitor both the health of the mother and the baby she is carrying before and after birth.
@Aine O Connor: No.. a doctors job is to carry out the wishes of and act in the best interests of their patient (or their next of kin) in line with the legal and medical framework of the jurisdiction in which they practice.They do not get to administer treatment against the patients will without a bloody good legal reason nor do they get to refuse treatment on moral grounds. If and when abortion becomes legal and no other doctor is available a doctor with moral objections must carry out the procedure or face legal sanctions up to and including being struck off.
@Vigo the Carpathian:
There is such a thing as medical ethics . Doctors are not machines to be bullied into doing things against their conscience.
@Vigo the Carpathian: It was Florence Nightingale who said hospitals must do no harm to the patient. I am confused by the government having so much say in this and all mostly men of course it is to repeal the amendment but I am on the fence as a human where I recognise there are some valid situations, how do we condone ending an embryo’s life. as a nurse I have been present when some women were admitted having miscarriages genuinely but I often carried the result of this miscarriage to the sluice room in a kidney dish .a formed embryo beginning to display its gender and in that cold unforgiving sluice room I baptised it with a cotton wool ball soaked in water and there its little life ended. I cant do it I cannot vote for repealing the amendment but perhaps we should not have had this amendment in our constitution, surely it is the patient and her Doctor who should have the say so on the seriousness of the health of both. There is no mention of the male partner at all who impregnated the woman be he husband, lover or any other type of partner, has he no say is he told or was his opinion asked .I am aware that some men walk free with no blame
Seems unfair to just expect GPs to provide a service without any consultation ..but not surprised..on a side note..was surprised to see an anti abortion mobile poster parked roadside yesterday ,is it unusual?small town,southeast..
@Kieran OKeeffe: No I believe there are several small towns in the southeast
@Kieran OKeeffe: it’s there since the damn summer… I think they move it a few yards every few days
@Brian O’Loughlin:
Fair play,,good one…
@Kieran OKeeffe: they have 3 of em in that town and billboards 3 vans make a daily nuisance of em selves.they have also been asked by down syndrome Ireland to stop exploiting downs ‘s kids on the posters but they refuse to stop
What does the witch doctor Katherine Zappone earth wind & fire have to say will she advice them to follow her book, The Hope for Wholenes guide as a solution?
I can imagine why GPs feel like this. Again our government suppose and underestimate the complexity of abortion with no consultation. Rather than plan, react, and pass on responsibility to someone else. Neither side sees this as a solution. Do your job politicians.
If you class abortion as medical care and a patient presents to a doctor with a medi al problem to which the solution is abortion, if the doctor refuses are they liable to the courts should a patient seek compensation?
Oooooh. A tad precious aren’t they?
If they’re expected to do it then despite their personal feelings on it, they’ll have to do it. You don’t let your personal feelings get in the way of your work.
@Keith McDonagh: Technically they can explain their objections to their patient and refer them to another doctor assuming one is available within an acceptable time frame. If there is none available they must carry out the procedure in accordance with the legal guidelines. Here’s a kicker though and god knows I hate to hand a win to the anti-choicers but it’s quite possible that in some cases doctors will need an ultrasound to be preformed to establish the gestational stage of the foetus before writing a script for the pills if they are in doubt as to how far along the pregnancy is. Bear in mind that abortion will probably be legal to 12 weeks.. One day over and both the mother and doctor could face prosecution.
@Keith McDonagh: That’s the Nuremberg defence.
Remember the game “simple Simon says…” Minister Harris seems to think that’s how the system works. I said it so it is law.
Have GPs not already prescribed the morning after pill in the past … I know it’s further along in the process but could be looked upon as a slight double standard!
Important that we respect health care workers right to their social conscience on this ethical and emotional issue, & allow a right to opt in or out of facilitating abortion services
Don’t doctors still take the Hippocratic oath ? Do no harm.
@aoife✨: No, hippocratic oath not taken here at least.
I predicted this. I could see this arrogant presumptuous talk from government TD’s a mile away.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/one-in-five-gps-wants-to-ban-abortion-7196674.html
The vote has to come first???
have your say