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AN OIREACHTAS COMMITTEE has expressed concern about the use of the term “welfare cheats” in the Taoiseach’s campaign targeting social welfare fraud.
Launching their periodic report, the cross-party committee also noted the use of the word “fraud” rather than “suspected fraud” in documentation published by the Department of Social Protection.
Last year, the head of the Department of Social Protection John McKeon admitted that putting the words welfare and cheats together was a mistake and that the department has learnt lessons from it.
Putting the word cheat beside the word welfare … I think we’ve learned from that. In retrospect I believe it was a mistake.
‘Welfare cheats’
Today’s report highlighted concerns from members that the word “welfare cheats” could lead to increased stigmatisation of those in receipt of income support payments and allowances.
It also noted that the majority of overpayments of allowances are a result of departmental error – however, the campaign focused exclusively on instances of fraud.
The committee recommended that in future, the department should be proactive in using the word “suspected fraud” in marketing material, arguing that the act of fraud can only be determined by the courts. It added that any future campaigns should prioritise error reduction rather than claimant fraud.
One of the key claims of the department’s initiative was that €500 million was saved in Ireland last year on foot of members of the public reporting relatives, friends, neighbours, and acquaintances on suspicion of benefit fraud.
However a FactCheck by TheJournal.ie found that this claim was false.
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So what should we call those who cheat the welfare system?
@John Cotter: what do we call those who don’t?
@Lucille Ball: I don’t think we need to call those at an unfortunate place in their lives that they need welfare anything. But surely those who game the system should be called out?
@John Cotter: TDs and Senators? e.g. Zappone and her extra mileage?
@John Cotter: Don’t know about the welfare system but the ones who consistently lie and cheat are ffg.
@Derek Poutch: and don’t forget SF
@John Cotter: Politicians!
@John Cotter:
Politicians
@John Cotter: we all know who the real fraudsters are…..
Of course, and it has been proven, that the majority of welfare ‘fraud’ is actually public servants being unable to use a calculator to work out what people are entitled to.
Have any public servants been sacked or even sanctioned for failing to do their jobs properly?
€600 million per annum in fraud, my a**e, Leo!
@G O’Rourke: Can you please provide a link to where that has been reported proven G?
@MK76: Have a read through the fact check I linked below.
@G O’Rourke: Got it and fine article on how the €500M wasn’t credible, but where did it state that PS couldn’t calculate what people were entitled to?
@MK76: The PS ‘multipliers’ used to calculate the figures were wrong for a start.
Also, it’s stated that “Recent exercises concluded that savings and/or overpayments have been recorded in about one-third of cases where a report was received from a member of the public.”
Overpayments, in one third of REPORTED cases……
One can assume that the real figure for overpayments (i.e PS miscalculations) is much higher than that.
In any case, Leo Varadker repeatedly used the €600 million per annum in fraud figure.
A total lie.
Welfare lies, lies to us all.
@MK76: Also in that article it’s pointed out that ‘fraud’ may have been exaggerated while the troika was in town in order to make it seem to them that massive savings were being made.
Fraud? By who???????
@G O’Rourke: Thanks for the rerun of the article I just read, but now you’re using the term “can only assume” when previously mentioned “proven”.
Again, please point out where this article (or perhaps others) stated that PS couldn’t calculate what folks are entitled to.
@MK76: Interestingly, when one attempts to get into the full report on the DSP website, this is the message one gets…
“Sorry, but we were unable to automatically locate the page you were trying to reach. It may be a case that this page is no longer available on our website.”
On another part of the DSP website we find that;
“Fraud and error surveys give a snapshot in time of the risk of non-compliance by customers with the rules of schemes being surveyed.
The net rate, as shown above, takes account of the financial effect of customers returning to the scheme following appeal or transferring to another social welfare payment.
The only reliable measure of excess payments by the Department through fraudulent claiming is by way of fraud overpayments raised.
In 2010, total overpayments amounted to EUR83.4m which represented 0.41% of total Departmental expenditure. Of this amount, overpayments arising from activity suspected of being fraudulent amounted to EUR25.9m. To prove fraud requires careful investigation of the case, establishment of the facts, a disallowance of payment by the deciding officer and the setting up of an overpayment in respect of the historical period, where appropriate.”
So, in 2010, ‘overpayments’ totalled €83.4 million, of which €25.9 million was ‘suspected of being fraudulent’.
That would suggest that in 2010, and there’s no reason to believe anything has changed much, over two thirds of ‘overpayments’ were down to department ‘errors’….
@G O’Rourke: Interesting data from 8yrs ago.
I see you’re now making inferences and using further wishy washy terms like “suggest”, rather than the very sure terms like “proven”.
Interesting.
@MK76: Interesting that you’re on again defending the state.
Still, someone has to do it, I suppose.
@MK76: From 2016.
“Mr Varadkar said €110 million in overpayments was paid in 2016, of which €41 million was the value of “fraud overpayments” in 16,225 cases.”
Again, around two thirds of overpayments were NOT fraud in 2016.
So, how do you account for that €69 million?
Overpayments, according to the DSP are a combination of fraud and ERRORS by the DSP.
@G O’Rourke: Interesting article. Didn’t see where it said the rest was due to error, but perhaps you’re just putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 (see what I did there).
Also interesting that you found an article where Mick Wallace was preaching about fraud. Did he ever pay back those millions he owes Revenue?
@MK76: You see what you want to see.
Ask Wallace about his finances if you’re concerned, or is that just more whataboutery?
Typical ‘Nick’.
@G O’Rourke: rubbish
@MK76: It also noted that the majority of overpayments of allowances are a result of departmental error – however, the campaign focused exclusively on instances of fraud.
This is a copy and paste from the very article you are commenting on!!!!!!
So there it is for you.
We should be more concerned with white collar crime which cheats the taxpayer out of much more than ‘welfare cheats’ do. What should we call them? or is this just applicable to the lower class.
@F. Wood: just the poor and disadvantaged.
Aggressive tax avoidance and predatory business exploitation is perceived as respectable and even admirable.
@Michael Lang:
I think for the higher classes they like to use the words wrong doing and obviously for the lower classes it’s fraud
The use of highly judgmental, insulting and negative language as well as stoking up contempt for sections of the community, often our fellow Irish citizens in unfortunate and vulnerable positions, is an effective way of attracting and reinforcing political support for certain political parties.
The disadvantaged, struggling in their everyday lives, focused on getting over the numerous difficulties and challenges which face them, trying to avoid eviction and gain access to essential services have less time and focus for political engagement and fir voting.
If you are the likes of Trump you can gain easy access to senior Ministers. If you are one of the poor and the disadvantaged, you can easily receive general insults and derogatory expressions of contempt from politicians. That’s real politik.
@Michael Lang: Ah Brendan, did you finally figure out how to circumvent the verification process?
@Michael Lang: Well said, it’s all just about distraction from where the real problems are….white collar tax evaders! but Leo wants to us “look over there” because Leo’s buddy’s are not the misfortunate but fellow Tory’s.
@Michael Lang:
Very well said
Ok social welfare fraudsters then. That may be more acceptable to the cheats
@Anthony Whelan: Don’t talk about public ‘servants’ like that.
They’ll be out on strike….
@Anthony Whelan:
This is ridiculous.
When we talk about tax cheats (whose names are published, unlike welfare cheats), it doesn’t stigmatise taxpayers.
@Brinster: eh that would be because they have been investigated and found guilty of tax evasion, under declaration etc. Ya know, innocent until proven and all that.
@Carina Clarke: So what about a welfare cheat who has been investigated and found guilty to? Isn’t that who we’re talking about here?
@Brinster: Do you include the Fine Gael party when you talk of cheats after all they were investigated and found to have evaded tax for 9 years in a row.
Varadkar must have missed the memo never to mention the word cheats !
@G O’Rourke: poor man blaming everything on the government. Nothing a good honest job won’t sort G man. Don’t be bitter anymore it’s slowly killing you….concerned
@Alan McCartney: LOL.
Hysterically funny!
While there is fraud in every welfare system that exists, a factcheck on this site last year found that the amount of actual fraud was around €51 million.
A lot of money, but nowhere near Leo Varadkar’s €600 million per annum figure.
http://www.thejournal.ie/fact-check-leo-varadkar-welfare-cheats-3404165-Jun2017/
@G O’Rourke:
Why do you continually say €600 million?
Can you not read the article you link to?
Why are you exaggerating?
@Brinster: Oh yea, the figure Leo was using was around €500 million, not €600 million.
And you accuse me of exaggerating……..then again, I’m not the taoiseach or minister for social protection………
Still, it worked for the liar in his quest for the FG leadership.
@G O’Rourke:
If you’re going to complain about exaggeration, maybe you shouldn’t……exaggerate?
That unfair?
@Brinster: Probably.
The €600 figure was one that stuck in my mind from reports at the time.
Absolutely vile campaign but at least they’ve owned up to the fact that branding people on welfare like this does real damage. Campaigns like this in the UK have led to people dobbing in their neighbours to the DWP for being on disability but not “looking the part” – ie for actually having lives instead of just sitting at home suffering all the time (or whatever disabled people are supposed to do with our time). People who rely on the government to survive have to jump through enough hoops already without government demonisation to deal with as well tbh.
@Aisling Kenny: Except they weren’t branding people on welfare this way. Only scammers.
@Aisling Kenny: think you might be missing the point here. It’s the people who are cheating the system that make it harder for those genuinely entitled to support to actually get it. Plus there’s less money in the pot in the first place. I don’t think anyone is trying to brand *all* recipients of welfare payments as scammers.
@Thought Criminal: but they were. They were trying to introduce a spy on your neighbour campaign, when instead they should be better resourcing the fraud and social welfare inspector roles. 600ml that could have been put to far better use.
@Pseud O’Nym: The idea that someone getting an extra tenner a week is somehow affecting social services more than, I don’t know, austerity driven cuts or systematic callousness towards people who are struggling is… Well, a bit of a hot take, I’ll leave it at that.
Focusing attention on large scale corruption from people in actual power would be a far better use of your time than giving out about small scale fraud.
@Aisling Kenny: Tenners add up.
@Thought Criminal: “Tenners add up”….to not even one single fraudulent bankers bonus/golden handshake!
@Caoimhin O’Murchadha: Wrongs add up too. Not to make a right though.
@Thought Criminal: It’s the scale of the “wrongs” that we shouldn’t be distracted from, I mean there’s a wrong and then there’s a WRONG!!, granted welfare cheats are costing the taxpayers millions, but “legal” tax evasion and white collar crime is costing the taxpayers billions!!….where’s Leo’s little sign about that??
When leo was elected to be taoiseach (by his own party!), his daddy said “leo, look after the most vulnerable in society”, so leo ran a campaign to catch welfare recipients that were getting too much, while inside the last two weeks, leo has been to the USA for a week, berlin and brussels, on the gov jet, all paid by the taxpayer. Whatever ye think it being on very important business, the optics don’t look good, which should concern leo because leo is all about the fake image of himself he is trying to portray to the public.
@Adrian: Cancel all governmental trips and allow people to cheat social welfare is your alternative. Nice one
People who acquiesce to government apportionment
The Poor will always be with us . Live with it.
Leo’s neoliberalism legally requires everyone to make a return stating that it’s ok for the parasitic state to fleece them, regardless of whether they have an income or not and then accusing them of not paying their fair share. Meanwhile, politicians contribute nothing but take all.
I don’t blame anyone for taking advantage of the system at all. The fact the welfare state even exists is a disgrace.
@Daniel Donovan: Why’s that?
Do you know what the initials PRSI stand for?
@Daniel Donovan:
I can probably understand why someone like you would feel that way you’ve probably been brought up in a very well off background never having to worry about money or your basic needs met, you’ve had a very privilege life so it’s important for you to begrudge those that are less unfortunate that you, classy guy Daniel
@G O’Rourke: Pay Related Social Insurance if I remember.
@Casper: A lot of assumptions made there Casper, didn’t have to make it personal.
@Daniel Donovan: And do you understand that concept?
How about the multinationals who are subsidised by ordinary workers and use every loophole to avoid even paying their 12.5% tax ? And benefit from our education system, membership of the EU and infrastructure ? They cheat us too !
@John Judd: the government you voted for allows them to conduct their tax affairs legally in this manner.
Yes – like ‘tax cheats’ stigmatizes tax payers and ‘exam cheats’ stigmatizes people who sit exams and ‘sports cheats’ stigmatizes sports people.
What a ridiculous story, weak-spined politicians pandering to appeasement of … welfare cheats.
Why not call them ‘Welfare recipients convicted of welfare fraud’
That’s a correct term but how long will be until this very busy Oireachtas committee finds that offensive as well?
What about Vulture fund cheats, Corporation tax cheats, Government expense cheats, Garda Commissioner cheats, Banking Management cheats, Nama cheats? etc, etc, etc. Need I go on? But no, let’s just focus on those unfortunate pesky serfs at the bottom of the wealth pile. Same as it ever was…………
I’m sick of the scrotes who wreck my area whose parents either don’t work or are on social housing. They should be penalised when their kids commit crimes, jack up their social housing rent, leading to evicting them. I spend a fortune in rent, these turds are privileged to live for next to nothing and are the ones who ruin the place, breaking windows, abusing animals, setting rubbish on fire, harrassing others who pay for THEIR housing. Had it up to here. *gestures how high here is with hand*
Rant over.
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