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Q&A: Why has the government chosen 12 weeks as the general time limit for abortion?

The use of abortion pills and pregnancy as a result of rape impacted the decision.

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In our Q&A: Eighth Amendment Referendum series, we are answering questions our readers have submitted in relation to the upcoming vote on 25 May.

THE QUESTION

A number of people have asked a version of this question. Here are some of those queries: 

  • My concern is the 12-week timeframe. I think it should be less. Why 12 weeks and if the Repeal is passed, what’s the likelihood that while abortion will be allowed, strict rules will apply to who and when? 
  • Why are the government proposing a period of 12 weeks at the beginning of pregnancy during which a pregnant person can access an abortion for any reason they wish?
  • Why is 12 weeks seen as the time limit to when an abortion is safe to perform?
  • My main query is the unrestricted abortion for up to 12 weeks. Does that mean anyone can have abortion, or are there conditions?

THE ANSWER

IF THE EIGHTH Amendment is repealed in the referendum on 25 May, legislation in relation to the provision of termination of pregnancy will be enacted.

The government has published draft legislation to help inform people of what this could look like.

In line with what the Oireachtas Eighth Amendment Committee recommended, the government plans to bring in new laws that would allow abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks of pregnancy  – again, only if the Eighth is repealed – through a GP-led service.

The draft legislation will have to be debated and signed off on by both houses of the Oireachtas (the Dáil and the Seanad). Elements of it may change during this process. You can read more about how a Bill becomes a law here.

On 25 May, Irish people will have the opportunity to vote in a referendum asking whether or not the Eighth Amendment, Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution, should be repealed.

The amendment gives equal constitutional status to the mother and the unborn and effectively bans abortion from taking place legally in most scenarios in Ireland. The ballot paper will not mention anything about the potential legislation that could follow. So it will not say anything about a 12-week time limit.

However, Head 7 of the draft legislation, approved by the Cabinet in March, states the following in relation to “early pregnancy” (that is, up to 12 weeks’ pregnancy):

1. It shall be lawful to carry out a termination of pregnancy in accordance with this Head where a medical practitioner certifies, that in his or her reasonable opinion formed in good faith, the pregnancy concerned has not exceeded 12 weeks of pregnancy.

2. It shall be necessary for 72 hours to elapse between the time of the certification referred to in subhead (1) and the termination of pregnancy being carried out.

3. The medical practitioner referred to in subhead (1) shall make such arrangements as he or she shall deem to be necessary for the carrying out of the termination of pregnancy as soon as may be after the period referred to in subhead (2) has elapsed but before the pregnancy has exceeded 12 weeks of pregnancy.

4. For the purposes of this Head, “12 weeks of pregnancy” shall be construed in accordance with the medical principle that pregnancy is dated from the first day of a woman’s last menstrual period.

Under the proposed legislation, abortion will be permitted after 12 weeks’ pregnancy under strict conditions in limited circumstances, such as when the woman or girl’s health or life is at risk. You can read about this in detail here.

Quick guide: pregnancy v gestation 

Pregnancy is the state of carrying a developing embryo or foetus within the female body, while gestation is the process or period of developing inside the womb between conception and birth.

In both medicine and law, pregnancy begins on the first day of a woman’s last period. So, a woman might not be physically pregnant in the first week or two of her pregnancy.

In the proposed draft legislation that could become law in the event of a Yes vote, it clarifies that the 12-week time limit where women would be able to get an abortion refers to pregnancy (again, that means the woman may not be pregnant for the first two weeks):

“It shall be lawful to carry out a termination of pregnancy in accordance with this Head where a medical practitioner certifies, that in his or her reasonable opinion formed in good faith, the pregnancy concerned has not exceeded 12 weeks of pregnancy.”

For the purposes of [Head 7] ―12 weeks of pregnancy shall be construed in accordance with the medical principle that pregnancy is dated from the first day of a woman’s last menstrual period.

For many women, the first sign of pregnancy is a missed period in week five.

Speaking to reporters in February, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said the 12-week limit was “not plucked out of the air”.

The government settled on 12 weeks of pregnancy as the general limit after taking into consideration the recommendations made by the Oireachtas committee and the Citizens’ Assembly, which had both heard from legal and medical experts, as well as people with direct experience related to the Eighth Amendment, over the course of several months.

When time limits were being discussed by the committee, a number of issues were considered including:

  • women and girls buying abortion pills online;
  • the difficulty legislating for cases involving rape or incest – scenarios that are often difficult and traumatic to prove, and may also lead to a court case as the accused has a right to defend themselves (more on that below).

One of three major milestones

Speaking about why the 12-week limit was chosen, the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists noted that 12 weeks is “one of three major milestones in pregnancy”.

In a statement, the Institute explained: “The period up to 12 weeks is termed early pregnancy. The other major milestones are viability – or the possibility of survival outside the womb – at approximately 23 to 24 weeks, and term at 37 to 42 weeks when foetal development has been completed.”

The Institute noted that 12 weeks is a milestone because most miscarriages occur during this period, adding that this is “in fact usually 10 weeks after conception since pregnancy is dated from the first day of the last menstrual period and conception usually occurs two weeks after this date”.

“Up to 50% of pregnancies miscarry in the first four weeks, typically before a woman is aware that she has conceived. Of the 50% that progress beyond four weeks, there is a significant further rate of miscarriage heavily influenced by the age of the woman.”

For example, a 30-year-old woman has approximately a 10% chance of miscarrying, whereas a 40-year-old woman has at least a 35% of miscarrying. This risk increases sharply each subsequent year, reaching 75% from the age of 45.

Terminations in the UK

The vast majority of terminations carried out in the UK, where most women and girls from Ireland travel for abortions, occur in the early stages of pregnancy.

Figures from the UK Department of Health show that 190,406 abortions were reported as taking place in England and Wales in 2016 – of which 185,596 involved residents of England and Wales. Most of these (92%) were performed under 13 weeks of pregnancy.

20180430_Abortion_1 Statista.com Statista.com

Some 3,265 females travelled from Ireland to the UK for abortions in 2016, the latest year for which statistics are available. That means Irish females accounted for almost seven in 10 (67.9%) of the non-resident abortions carried out in Britain that year.

Some 85% of these terminations took place within 12 weeks of gestation, with the majority of these (2,256) taking place within the first nine weeks.

Abortion pills 

Speaking about the impact abortion pills had on the committee’s decision to back a 12-week limit, the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists noted how the committee had “expressed its concerns about the increasing use of abortion pills by women in Ireland which are purchased illegally over the internet, therefore with no certainty as to their origin and quality”.

“Licensed pills are safe and effective when taken under medical supervision. They are now commonly used in medical termination up to 12 weeks of pregnancy in countries where termination of pregnancy is legal.

However, when taken without medical supervision, there are significant risks. Women may take the wrong dose and may be afraid to seek medical assistance if complications arise.

About three women in Ireland order abortion pills online every day (a further nine travel abroad for a termination).

The abortion pill is used in the early stages of pregnancy through the use of two medications: mifepristone and misoprostol.

Mifepristone blocks the production of progesterone, the hormone that supports the pregnancy before the placenta is developed. Misoprostol then causes the uterus to contract, causing cramping, bleeding and the loss of the pregnancy in a similar way to a miscarriage.

Different doses are prescribed depending on the stage of pregnancy. Medical termination can be completed in a community and home setting before 12 weeks, with only occasional requirement for hospital facilities.

As explained by the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, which has been providing terminations for women and girls from Ireland since 1968, the type of medical abortion carried out depends on the stage of the pregnancy:

The abortion pill – up to 10 weeks of pregnancy

Medication is used to cause an early miscarriage (you may experience cramping pain and heavy bleeding). You may need two visits to the clinic, which may be in one day (six hours) or up to three days apart – check with the contact centre when booking. No surgery or anaesthetic is involved.

We recommend that you do not travel until the pregnancy has passed (90% of women will pass the pregnancy within four hours of taking the second medication).”

Abortion pill – between 10 and 24 weeks of pregnancy 

Medication causes the womb to contract and push out the pregnancy. From 22 weeks an injection to the womb may be required. At least two visits to the clinic are required. Sometimes an overnight stay at the clinic is needed at the second visit.

More information on surgical abortion can be read here.

Pregnancy as a result of rape

The Oireachtas committee discussed pregnancy in the cases of rape at a number of its hearings.

In October, Noeline Blackwell, Chief Executive Officer of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, told the committee: “We have no reliable national data on the prevalence of pregnancy as a result of rape.

However, from our own statistics over 11 years, and also using the statistics from the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland (RCNI) which collected from a number of other rape crisis centres, it seems that approximately 4% of the total number of female victims/survivors who presented to rape crisis centres report pregnancies as a result of rape.

“Of that 4%, a little over one-third of DRCC clients went on to parent while a little less than one-third terminated their pregnancy. The RCNI figures show almost half went on to parent, and a little less than 20% terminated their pregnancy.”

Blackwell told the committee that 11 women disclosed pregnancies as a result of rape to the DRCC in 2016.

The outcomes in these cases were as follows:

  • Parenting: 4
  • Termination: 3
  • Miscarried: 1
  • Adopted: 1
  • Fostered: 1
  • Unknown: 1

“These statistics do not indicate a victim/survivor’s choice, but merely of the ultimate outcome. The figures may relate to recent or historic pregnancies,” Blackwell stated.

Discussing the prevalence of rape and sexual violence, Blackwell noted a 2014 survey undertaken by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights found that about 2% of women aged 18-74 in the EU experienced sexual violence in the previous 12 months.

From DRCC’s own evidence, most rape and serious sexual violence is perpetrated by someone known to the victim.

“The DRCC statistics for 2016 identified that just under 17% of adult rape and sexual assault was perpetrated by the client’s spouse or partner, 2% by other family members and almost 46% by other known persons.

“This includes friends, recent dates, workmates and the like. About 50% of childhood sexual abuse revealed to us by adults was perpetrated by a family member,” Blackwell said.

The Citizens’ Assembly recommended that the termination of pregnancy on the grounds of rape be lawful up to a 22-week gestational limit.

The Oireachtas committee’s final report states: “While the Committee accepts that it should be lawful to terminate a pregnancy that is the result of a rape or other sexual assault, it has concerns about whether the recommendation of the Citizens’ Assembly can be implemented in practice.

These concerns arise from:
(a) the difficulty presented in the verification of a rape or sexual assault, and
(b) the opinion of the Committee that:
(i) there is a need to avoid the further traumatisation of a victim of rape or sexual assault that would arise
if some form of verification was required;
(ii) a requirement for a verification process is likely to be complex or even unworkable in practice.

In its report, the committee also noted the “underreporting of rape and sexual offences to An Garda Síochána and the authorities generally in Ireland”.

“The Committee understands why some women find it difficult or impossible to report rape or sexual assault and is accordingly of the opinion that it would be unreasonable to insist on reporting as a precondition for exercising any right to terminate a pregnancy that has resulted from rape or sexual assault.

The Committee is further of the view that where a woman is concerned that she may be pregnant as a result of a rape or sexual assault, she should have immediate access to appropriate services.

The committee noted that, “in view of the complexities inherent in legislating for the termination of pregnancy for reasons of rape or other sexual assault”, it is of the opinion that it “would be more appropriate to deal with this issue by permitting termination of pregnancy with no restriction as to reason provided that it is availed of through a GP-led service delivered in a clinical context as determined by law and licensing practice in Ireland with a gestational limit of 12 weeks”.

The government, when drafting its legislation, changed this to 12 weeks’ pregnancy or 10 weeks’ gestation.

If you have another question, please send it to referendum@thejournal.ie.

TheJournal.ie / YouTube

The content of this article may be distressing for some readers. If needed, you can contact the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre on its 24-hour helpline: 1800 77 88 88 (more info here). 

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    Mute Barry Somers
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    May 3rd 2018, 7:39 PM

    Very informative,
    The legislation makes sense

    204
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    Mute eric nelligan
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    May 3rd 2018, 7:53 PM

    @Barry Somers: if you believe in abortion it might make sense, if you disagree, if you see it as the deliberate ending of life than it does not.

    Very concerning is the 12-24 week section allowing of abortions under head 4, it is modeled on the UK version and we all know that in the UK it is affective abortion on demand.

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    Mute Larissa Caroline Nikolaus
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:06 PM

    @Barry Somers: To any reasonable and educated person, yes, but the usual holier than thou suspects will be along soon to scream about murder

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    Mute kevin
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:24 PM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: holier than thou versus smug and arrogant like you Larissa. It’s people like you that still give the no side a fighting chance. Keep those pompous comments coming.

    102
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    Mute Thought Criminal
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:31 PM

    @kevin: Larissa is a biology denier.

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    Mute Brian Deane
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:37 PM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: Don’t worry Larissa – it’s all part of the journal’s soft sell so you’re perfectly safe to demonize anyone who doesn’t agree with you.
    Coverage in other media (the journal chose not to report it) of an inquest in UK into the death of a woman following abortion mentioned that the doctor had performed 2,000 abortions….equivalent population of a small town. Don’t expect any Q&A’s about something like this…..

    67
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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:52 PM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: i know you have the majority of the compassion and concern for the woman in this case. And that is your choice and what your conscience leads you to. My conscience has to account for the status of the fetus to me is a valid form of life. We were all that fetus. 100% of every person that has or will ever exist was that fetus at one time. I cant simply turn away from that. Its not religiously based…its just factually correct to me and no euphemism of the fetus just being a bunch of cells or not having brain activity will ever take that away. It would make me extremely uneasy to vote Yes. I feel sorry for women who find themselves in tough situations but only one entity is terminated here and i want to protect that entity. Am i wrong to want that?

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:34 PM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: couldn’t it be possible in the future with medical advances and technology to be able to incubate a 12 week old foetus, would it not be murder to terminate the incubation period, 50 years ago it was impossible to keep premature babies alive but with modern advances premature babies have a fighting chance at life. I’ll be voting no.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:05 PM

    @Kevin Tyrrell: very good post and explains the position of many of us.

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:12 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: legislation can be revised, do you really think no one would bother to bring it into line with the capabilities of medical science?

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:15 PM

    @Karen Wellington: you’re not convincing me Karen.

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    Mute Larissa Caroline Nikolaus
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:43 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: All you lovely hyperbolic pro-birthers seem to think, that as soon as the 8th is repealed, abortions will become mandatory, but what you fail to understand, or are ignoring, is that abortions are already happening, the 8th amendment is just a hypocritic case of not in my backyard

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:13 PM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: shout all you want, fact is abortion won’t ever be an issue for 99% of the population, unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks is to extreme for me, I’ll be voting no.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:27 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: you have said 10 times that you are voting no. Thats fine and perfect, you still have 1 vote. I will be voting yes. Repeal

    31
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    Mute Larissa Caroline Nikolaus
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:27 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: that’s your choice and your right, just be aware that this referendum is just about repealing the 8th, not about the legislation that will or won’t replace it

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:28 PM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: they dont care about abortion, they care about @securing@ their entry to heaven. They voting No just in case there is heaven as they have been told since childhood.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:36 PM

    @Marie McCormack: attitudes like this, arrogant, dismissive that is driving a lot of voters to the No side. #chooselife

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:37 PM

    @Marie McCormack: you exaggerate Marie, 5 at most, and I’m not a thump the cross either so your wrong there as well, I’m sure the godder men have their religious reasons why their against abortions, I’d have more of a hippie view, life is life and abortion up to 12 weeks to appease a few extreme liberals is a step to far for me, I’ll be voting no.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:39 PM

    @Sean @114: The NO, NO, NO voters were lost a long time ago.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:42 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: Good on you with your @hippie@ view whatever it means? You got it right there – women avail of abortion with the only aim to appease the @extreme liberals@. They say never say never, you never know when a relative might need the service

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:44 PM

    @Sean @114: there is still the boat whether you vote yes or no, might be a relative of yours taking it one day, never dismiss the chance that they will be among the 3000 unfortunate women going to the UK or those taking the pill.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:10 AM

    @Marie McCormack: I wouldn’t dismiss it at all. I’m in favour of repeal but not abortion on demand but arrogant commentators like yourself, who completely dismiss those with opposing views, and certain other abortion advocates on here just reenforce my views that repealing with this suggested legislation is the wrong thing to do.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:11 AM

    @Michael Lang: it’s the middle ground who will be swayed to vote No by the arrogant, dismissive angry mob on the Yes side.

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    Mute Chucky Arlaw
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    May 4th 2018, 12:14 AM

    @Sean @114: describing the yes side as angry and a mob is a bit rich given the banners I passed on my way home from work today

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 4th 2018, 12:42 AM

    @Sean @114: absolutely arrogant of women asking for a right beyond that of a fetus. How would anyone dare!!! Good you are not dismissing it, might give you a thought “what if one day.” To be honest, I think your views were reinforced many many years ago.

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    Mute Larissa Caroline Nikolaus
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    May 4th 2018, 6:41 AM

    @Sean @114: is this the same middle ground that was swayed to vote No in the marriage equality referendum, the likes of you kept spouting the same nonsense then

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:04 AM

    @Chucky Arlaw: banners of what, a foetus? You don’t want to see it yet you advocate killing it?

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:08 AM

    @Marie McCormack: who said anything about rights beyond a foetus. I’m talking about the foetus right to life in cases where abortion for convenience is concerned. Your sort are so obsessed with ‘bodily autonomy’ that you can’t even read where some of the no vote is coming from. I believe that abortion is correct in certain limited circumstances. You’re so outraged that you don’t want to listen to opposing views.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:11 AM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: another arrogant dismissive angry abortionist who thinks that all no voters hate LGBTs and fondle rosary beads. Speaks absolute volumes about your pure ignorance of some who are voting no. You’re doing great work in gathering votes for the no campaign. Keep up the good work.

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    Mute Kevin Tyrrell
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    May 4th 2018, 8:28 AM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: yes abortions are happening but not by my will or conscience. I know you do not understand this but my voting yes is literally my signing death warrants into perpetuity in Ireland. You conveniently ignore and create euphamisms to explain away to your conscience that you are not doing that so you can stand up for women. The only thing is the vast majority of abortions are carried out because the pregnancy and fetus are inconvenient. No other reason either morally, ethically or medically. The mother doesnt want it as it would not be convenient. That is the truth behind the vast majority of abortions. I cant in good conscience vote yes to what was a choice by the mother to have sex that she didnt prepare for and thus an entity must die by my consent in Ireland

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    Mute Neill Mcilwaine
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    May 4th 2018, 8:45 AM

    @Sean @114: Exactly Sean, i voted a firm yes to ssm and would be voting to repeal the 8th were it not for the 12 weeks. It seems to me that this was added to appease the loud extremists.

    The arrogance and unwillingness to listen from some here is unbelievable! Rosary beads??, Heaven??? give me a break!

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 10:19 AM

    @Neill Mcilwaine: absolutely agree Neil. The arrogance and intolerance of others with a different view is a sight to behold

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    Mute The Risen
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    May 3rd 2018, 7:41 PM

    Average time to prosecute a rape case: >400 days

    Average full term pregnancy: circa 280 days

    The people who want legislation for rape are probably the same people praying to their God for 10 month waiting lists for abortions.

    12 week unrestricted is the sensible, compassionate, compromise

    198
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    Mute Change Everything
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    May 3rd 2018, 7:45 PM

    @The Risen: No need to be adding insult to injury for victims of rape by putting them through another ordeal. 12 weeks should be the minimum.

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:38 PM

    I wasn’t going to get involved since I’m a man but since folk have been saying we should be involved I’ll be voting no, 12 weeks is to extreme for me.

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    Mute Tweety McTweeter
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:50 PM

    Men have a vote in this country too

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:56 PM

    @Tweety McTweeter: they do, I wasn’t going to get involved because it is a woman’s issue but I still think abortion is wrong even when it is done to animals, life is life.

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:10 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer:

    Then you should vote – that is the entire point of a referendum

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:41 PM

    @HelloGoogleTracking: a referendum about an issue that will never affect me as a man, I felt it wasn’t my place to be telling the women what to do, but I have since changed my mind I will be voting for a no.

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:48 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: I know I’m preaching to the converted – but I need to reiterate 2 reasons why men are involved.

    1) a large part of this issue is the ethics of giving a voice to those unborn who are unable to speak up for themselves.
    It should not be dictated by gender as to who speaks on their behalf

    2) a man is directly impacted if his partner wants to have an abortion but he wants to keep the child.

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    Mute Elvis King
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:13 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: why should a woman get to say what happens to a child that you both produced.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:16 PM

    @Elvis King: because the woman is to carry it. She carries, she has the say. Anyway, if it is a yes, women will be cared for in Ireland, if it is a no, they will continue going to the UK and beyond. Simple as that.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:29 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: oh you were going to get involved, so much so

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    Mute Mr Phil Officer
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:42 PM

    @Marie McCormack: do you think it’s right for me to have a say.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:49 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: a pregnant woman knows her own circumstances best and is in the best position to make her own decision according to her own circumstances. The problem is that the 8th Amendment and legislation removes that freedom of individual choice from pregnant women who are the best decision makers.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:49 PM

    @Mr Phil Officer: as many as you wish, thankfully limited to one vote

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    Mute Maura.
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    May 4th 2018, 1:11 AM

    @Elvis King: Maybe because it’s in her body.

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    Mute Sharon Reid
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    May 3rd 2018, 7:52 PM

    Also alot of people think 12 weeks is such a long time a woman does not show a positive until 4 weeks pregnant at earliest and can be 8weeks pregnant before she realises she is actually pregnant as a long cycle or one missed period could be from stress/weight etc so 8 to 12 weeks is only 4 weeks for a massive decision

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    Mute Sharon Reid
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    May 3rd 2018, 7:54 PM

    @Sharon Reid: which I think is more than acceptable btw #repeal

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    Mute Pale Blue Dot
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:39 PM

    @Sharon Reid: And if you are on the IUD or patch you may never menstruate. Always worth taking a pregnancy test every month for peace of mind..

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:47 PM

    So there were 11 reported pregnancies through rape in 2016?
    Not to belittle the position for the individuals involved, but that scenario sure has had an unbelievable disproportionate amount of discussion relative to the number of people effected.

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    Mute The Risen
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:53 PM

    @TradingDuck: I direct you to the word ‘reported’

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:08 PM

    @The Risen: thats a ridiculous response. Even if it’s 10 times that figure it’s still an insignificant amount when compared to the amount of discussion it got.
    You’re not seriously attempting to suggest the level of interest on the topic was proportionate are you?

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:23 PM

    @TradingDuck: so, just sacrifice the needs of pregnant raped women , the victims of incest and children who have been impregnated.

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:37 PM

    @Michael Lang: The reality is there is no perfect solution.

    There’s a downside and upside to both outcomes. People need to weigh up for themselves.
    It’s not ideal for victims of rape having to travel. But it’s also not ideal to have thousands of extra abortions per year here than what are currently exported. ( and it will undoubtedly become more frequent in time once legalised / normalised)

    So the number impacted via rape etc does indeed need to be factored in.

    To give a blunt answer to your question, my answer is yes. Keep in mind the option to travel is there.

    But by the same token you will sacrifice thousands of additional abortions a year ?

    You can’t simply point out the down side to the alternative argument to claim the moral high ground. There is down sides to both.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:48 PM

    @TradingDuck: and there you have it! Off with the victims of rape incest and underage pregnancy to the UK.

    Pure, nasty and heartless hypocrisy from a man who need never worry about getting pregnant.

    The UK is the solution.

    Abortion is okay if it is performed in the UK.

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:59 PM

    @Michael Lang: That’s actually your response ? Did you even read my comment

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:10 PM

    @TradingDuck: this what you said about sacrificing the interests of women impregnated by rape, incest, and under age pregnancy or additionally a danger to her life which is in the future and not present.

    “To give a blunt answer to your question, my answer is yes. Keep in mind the option to travel is there.”

    I have certainly read your comment.

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:17 PM

    @Michael Lang: I think you seem more intent on appearing to be the guy that shouts loudest atop the moral high ground rather than actually listening to any alternative views. You seem to do the same on every thread on abortion I notice.

    I suggest you open your mind to the complexities of the issues rather than being blinkered in your views. It’s too serious an issue to be scoring points on looking ‘the nice guy’

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:32 PM

    @TradingDuck: how do 3000 women heading to the UK a year sit on your spectrum of proportionality? How about all the women who take the abortion pill?

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:34 PM

    @TradingDuck: the issue is that it is not your issue, it is the issue of the woman and her close family. However, you, on the no side, love sticking your nose and dictating your moral to others. Same with your canvassers. Asking women to vote against their own healthcare.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:36 PM

    @Trading Duck: you did not respond to my point.

    These are the problems that retention of the Eight Amendment will continue to present.

    If the 8th Amendment is retained, there can be no abortion in Ireland in the case of the following:-

    Danger to the health of a woman

    A woman impregnated as a consequence of rape

    A woman impregnated as a consequence of incest.

    An under age girl who is impregnated even if her health is put at risk by continuation of pregnancy.

    A woman who may face a real and substantial danger to her life in the future but which is not yet a present danger.

    A woman who has a foetus with fatal foetal abnormality.

    Have you anything to say about the misery that this continues to present?

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    Mute Eamonn Dunne
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    May 4th 2018, 12:43 AM

    @TradingDuck: where did you get the idea of thousands of addional abortions from? Currently there are just shy of 5000 women travelling to the uk or buying pills online. How many extra thousand are you estimating will terminate their pregnancy that aren’t already doing so?

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 4th 2018, 1:14 AM

    @Eamonn Dunne: I estimate an extra 10,000 per year. That’s a small sized Irish town every year.

    No one can tell the future but it’s not unreasonable to assume we will follow in the footsteps of the uk where it is 1 in 5. Its actually 1 in 4 globally – but the uk are nearest to us in terms of culture, economy etc.
    I’m not saying it will happen over night – or within a couple of years. But give it 10,15,20 years. Eventually we will get there. At least that’s the most likely outcome.

    Currently over 70,000 pregnancies in Ireland. 20% gives nearly 15,000. Currently 5,000 occur. That’s an extra 10,000.

    I’m sure repealers will refute that figure. But it’s a reasonable guesstimate of the future.

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 4th 2018, 1:29 AM

    @TradingDuck: as a follow on from my previous post. Ultimately people have to weigh up what value they put on an unborn baby. Then what value on an extra 10,000 unborn babies in any single as per my post above. That’s a question someone can only answer for themselves.

    Then weigh that up versus the negative impact of the 8Th – of which there are many.

    Ultimately it’s how people weigh those against each other is how people will / should vote.

    Of course, some people get totally hysterical and only consider the downside of the 8th while completely disregarding the bigger picture.

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:14 PM

    Why were none of the questions answered directly.

    Instead there was a biased argument made for abortion – no attempt at balance.

    The fact that human rights were being removed – specifically the rights to life for the unborn – is very telling….instead danced around it not mentioning the current rights beyond “equal rights to mother”

    Which is not true – it is qualified by an exception when mothers life is threatened…

    Any chance of fair balance unbiased reporting?

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    Mute Scott Peterson
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:56 PM

    @HelloGoogleTracking:
    I made a similar observation earlier but my comment was quickly censored.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:26 PM

    @HelloGoogleTracking: unwanted conceptions due to rape, incest, girls under age impregnated, are to be ignored and only if the real, substantial and present threat to the life of the pregnant woman can there be intervention. That’s really extreme and hardcore.

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    Mute Skimothy
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:50 PM

    @HelloGoogleTracking: fair balanced unbiased
    reporting? By the journal? Come on now. That will never happen.

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    May 4th 2018, 9:43 AM

    @Michael Lang:

    I agree it is extreme – an amendment should be made adding the exceptions you list – the extreme cases (also very rare)

    Hard cases make bad law – this is a truism.

    Instead of adding these extreme cases – we are being asked to remove all human rights from the unborn – and abortion on demand being proposed.

    It is literally baby with bathwater stuff

    Rape and incest are being used a smokescreen to crowbar abortion on demand

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:11 PM

    @HelloGoogleTracking: 100%. That’s the real issue here. The 3 month abortion on demand provision is a major problem for those of us who would like to see repeal for those cases mentioned. It’s simply a step too far and likely the thin end of the wedge when you consider those shouting loudest from the left in Leinster House.

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    Mute Eddie Smyth
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:53 PM

    Hey, Removing the 8th amendment would remove every legal protection for the unborn child in Ireland. What legal protections for the unborn child do ye all support?

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    Mute Niallers
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:57 PM

    @Eddie Smyth: Its nesting season at the moment. Bird eggs will have more legal protection than a fetus once the 8th is repealed.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:18 PM

    @Eddie Smyth: there are no legal protections, just on the paper. Women go abroad to abort. A woman who does not want to be pregnant, wont be. You have your eyes closed if you think Ireland has no abortion – Ireland has abortion as any other country. Some go aborad, some take abortion pils. Ypou save no one you just make the lives of real women, who can be your sisters, mothers, wives etc, harder.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:39 PM

    @Marie McCormack: what are your views on late term abortion on demand for convenience?

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:50 PM

    @Sean @114: restricted abortion will only be available up to 24 weeks.

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    Mute Dermattg
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:51 PM

    @Marie McCormack: Hollie doesn’t agree Marie
    https://loveboth.ie/mary-and-hollie/

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:53 PM

    @Sean @114: there isn’t a thing like late term abortion, for convenience or not. There is delivery if the mothers life is at risk. But you would know it anyway. If not that would be a bigger concern. So I cant have an opinion on things made up by the no side. I also dont believe in fairy tales before you ask.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:58 PM

    @Dermattg: absolutely made up story. Form the beginning to the end. For some reason all on the No side either contemplated to have abortion or had one and are sorry. You gotta come up with some new line at this stage. pretty childish

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:14 AM

    @Marie McCormack: ah I see. You would rather refuse to answer the question. Ok how about greater than 24 weeks abortion on demand?

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:16 AM

    @Michael Lang: no legislation has passed Tony. How do you feel about abortion on demand up to 6 months, like UK?

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 4th 2018, 12:17 AM

    @Sean @114: I really start to worry you believe in what you ask.

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    May 4th 2018, 12:27 AM

    @Sean @114: I agree with abortion on demand to to 12+weeks and abortion for cause up to 24 weeks. After 24 weeks I agree with abiriin if there is risk to the life or health of the pregnant woman.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:13 AM

    @Marie McCormack: oh dear refusing to answer again. I guess we all know where you’re coming from so.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:40 AM

    @Michael Lang: if nothing else you’re honest Tony and will answer the question, unlike a lot of other loud, but unforthcoming on their real views, posters. I find the very notion of abortion on demand up to 6 months absolutely abhorrent but you’re views are consistent and if you don’t recognise the existence of human life in utero to begin with then you would not have a problem with ending that life, so I know where you are coming from. I completely disagree with your views but respect the fact that you hold them.

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    Mute Cathy Carroll
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:51 PM

    Can I please ask a question. (Apologies if you feel that this is a stupid one but be patient) if the 8th is indeed repealed, then does that mean the government can further change the laws as they see fit, leaving changes to law that many yes-voters may find unacceptable but at that stage it’s too late, the 8th is repealed and there’s no going back.

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    Mute Anto Curran
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:05 PM

    @Cathy Carroll: they have the power to do so yes.

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    Mute Elvis King
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:09 PM

    i still dont understand how anyone who has not been in the situation can agree to aborting a child . To me thats like someone agreeing to kill any child.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:20 PM

    @Cathy Carroll: it’s highly unlikely. You can take it that the draft legislation that has been published is what will be passed, more or less. Personally I think the referendum will pass so the protection that now exists for the unborn will be removed. It is possible, likely even, that some of the more extreme abortion advocates, SF, PPBF etc will push for a 24 week ‘viability’ threshold for abortion on demand. I’m not sure how much support this would get from FG/FF but I would expect that it would be a step too far. In short, expect the referendum to pass, abortion on demand up to 3 months, a taxpayer funded service and all hell to break loose between the GP profession and HSE when they try to service it.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:36 PM

    @Sean @114: I wonder how the rest of the developed world manages. They must be so unique.

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    May 3rd 2018, 11:42 PM

    @Marie McCormack: are you calling our health care system developed? God forbid you ever have to rely on it. 190,000 abortions in England and Wales, over 18,000 pa after 3 months is probably proper women’s healthcare in your eyes. Say no more.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 4th 2018, 12:06 AM

    @Sean @114: their population is 66 million. if you take the Irish population, add the women who take the boat or the pill, the numbers are at par. Can you do maths? Or you would need a poster?

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    May 4th 2018, 12:07 AM

    @Sean @114: so I dont need to say anything else. Ireland has abortion, the service is just provided by the neighbour, how sad it can be and pretty shameful to export this healthcare issue.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:18 AM

    @Marie McCormack: there’s that dismissive arrogance again. Oh dear. I see you are assuming that abortion demand amongst Irish women will remain the same even when the local corner-shop clinics open. Very naive.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:21 AM

    @Marie McCormack: healthcare. Not very healthy for the soon to be child Marie. Then again I suspect that you are delusional and believe that there is no second life. You know, “bodily autonomy” and all of that. Have you ever even referenced the in utero life in any of your posts? Any acknowledgement at all of the offspring? Just curious.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:25 AM

    @Sean @114: my personal value system is that one pregnant woman is more deserving of value than a million foetuses. I focus on the life, health, welfare and interests of the pregnant woman. The foetus comes a very poor second to that.

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    May 4th 2018, 12:26 AM

    @Sean @114: I am not assuming anything. You are assuming a lot though. You are assuming some abortion after 24 weeks, you are assuming abortion will be provided at every corner.You cant stop a woman who does not want to be pregnant. And while no side is playing playing holy saints, the neighbours are helping IRISH women out. There is a place for thought.

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    May 4th 2018, 12:30 AM

    @Sean @114: you can think about that life in utero until chicken come home the thing is that a woman who does not want to be pregnant will take the boat. You know why the UK legalized abortion? because women were ready to risk their life not to be pregnant and they were dying. After long consideration, they eventually put the woman’s life first and legalized abortion. It is the No side that is lost in a big delusion while women take the boat in thousands a year. Now go tell someone about being delusional.

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    May 4th 2018, 12:31 AM

    @Sean @114: I helped a female friend obtain an abortion of an unwanted pregnancy. The abortion was performed at 17 weeks. She needed help. I gave it to her. It was her decision. I believe that it was the right decision for her.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:46 AM

    @Michael Lang: you’ve called out YOUR value system many times Tony. You don’t believe that human life exists in utero so you’re starting from a very precarious position. Fortunately your views alone are not relevant. It’s society’s life value systems that are at issue here. This is not about the value of one life over another, this is about respecting the right of the young offspring to life, was once you and I, and protecting it from being terminated on a whim.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:51 AM

    @Michael Lang: you helped a female get an abortion. Badge of honour right there Tony, almost Brid Smith like. You say it was right for her and that’s fine. If her health or life was at stake then I would agree. It clearly wasn’t the right decision for her soon to be baby. There are always two lives, no matter how much you seek to demean and devalue one with terms like ‘proto human’. ‘Proto humans’ are dismembered every day in the UK under their 6 month on demand abortion regime.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 8:56 AM

    @Marie McCormack: are you not listening to anything I am saying? If a woman’s life is at risk then abortion should be an option. You’re so caught up in your own arrogance, dismissiveness and on your ‘bodily autonomy’ soap box that you don’t seem to be listening or taking heed of other’s views. I am for repealing the 8th. I am not in favour of abortion on demand. So if some woman doesn’t want a baby because her ass will look fat in her 501s then she should not be allowed to walk into the local abortion convenience store and have her offspring terminated. That’s where I’m coming from so cool the outrage jets.

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    Mute Daniel Donovan
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    May 3rd 2018, 7:58 PM

    Because a 12 week period is considered the first trimester if I’m correct.

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    Mute Ciara Ni Mhurchu
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:29 PM

    We should all vote No and get the magdelane laundries set up again.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:33 PM

    @Ciara Ni Mhurchu: good little money earners. Slave labour based on compulsory incubation and birth. Sell the babies to American adoptees is a good sideline.

    Irish women are expecting too much nowadays. They are looking for competent medical care and bodily autonomy.

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    Mute Larissa Caroline Nikolaus
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:49 PM

    @Michael Lang: You’re right, how dare Irish women want autonomy over their bodies? While we’re at it, let’s strip them of the right to vote and hold political office as well, women clearly can’t be trusted, if they have such liberal illusions

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    May 3rd 2018, 10:56 PM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: we need holding pens for pregnant women if they show any signs of looking at the abortion option. It could be done by way of internment and then educate the women to understand the the 8th Amendment is all good. Rosaries will help them.

    This uppidity behaviour is a direct consequence of giving women the vote and having female political representation.

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    Mute Dermattg
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:18 PM

    @Michael Lang: these women might disagree with you michael
    https://youtu.be/Y_enzePQ85c

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    Mute Patrick Mallon
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:21 PM

    @Ciara Ni Mhurchu: keep it up ciara, you and your kind are damaging the repeal vote, its already slipping badly,

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    May 3rd 2018, 11:21 PM

    @Dermattg: yeah, they all disagree until the point they need to take the boat. repeal

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:45 PM

    @Patrick Mallon: no its not patrick, you keep saying it like repetition will make it true. Yes has dropped slightly in recent weeks and no has remained stagnant. It’s not “slipping badly”, what do you actually achieve by lying to yourself and other?

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:00 AM

    @Ciara Ni Mhurchu: they could wash clothes and act as back street 2 bit abortion clinics at the same time. That would at least satisfy the pro abortionists. “Bodily autonomy” and all of that.

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    Mute Patrick Mallon
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    May 4th 2018, 12:09 AM

    @Karen Wellington: you know that it is dropping as you have just said, the real sizeable drop will come polling day when all the snowflakes won’t get out of bed to vote, that with the sizeable undecided vote who were pretty sure will be no voters, repeal is not home and hosed, not by a long shot. Abortion on demand is finally hitting the Irish middle ground and they don’t like what the hearing. Protect our unborn. Vote no

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:12 AM

    @Patrick Mallon: so the only way for NO to win is by the Yes side not voting at all. Interesting.

    You hate snowflakes. I think that snowflakes are very beautiful. Every snowflake is unique. Study them under a microscope.

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    Mute Patrick Mallon
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    May 4th 2018, 12:26 AM

    @Michael Lang: I hate nobody Michael but I’m pretty sure that you do.

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    May 4th 2018, 12:33 AM

    @Patrick Mallon: I dislike authoritarian dogmatists but I can’t say that I actually hate them because it is not their fault that they are that way. I like snowflakes. Their beauty is not appreciated.

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    May 4th 2018, 12:55 AM

    @Michael Lang: I suppose the special snowflakes can be quiet innocent and cute, until they open there mouth anyway

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    Mute Larissa Caroline Nikolaus
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    May 4th 2018, 4:58 AM

    @Patrick Mallon: *their

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    Mute Alan Leahy
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:41 PM

    At what point is the ball of cells considered a human?

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    Mute HelloGoogleTracking
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:12 PM

    @Alan Leahy:

    When it has human DNA and is alive, it is human.

    Then there are different stages of development – ended at adulthood at approx 20 years.

    At all points once alive and human it is a human being.

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    Mute Nydon
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:16 PM

    @Alan Leahy:
    The pro life view is generally that this happens at inception but the thought that a microscopic clump of cells is the same as a living, breathing human is a massive cognitive challenge for any logical being.
    The pro choice view is more complex:
    As human life is a continuous process from inception to death there cannot be one single agreed point in time when that transition is made.
    There are views ranging from:
    end of first trimester, ability to feel pain,
    sentience and up to emergence from the womb.
    Because of this, the pro choice view of the process generally has to shift to include another indicator – one that is decisively binary which is:
    It’s he point in time when someone decides the pregnancy is wanted.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:29 PM

    @Nydon: yes, the gradualist theory of foetal development as explained by the eminent medical ethicist Dr Bobby Farside to the Citizens’ Assembly and explained clearly by you.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:56 PM

    @Nydon: “a human life is a continuous process from inception”. I’ll stop you there. This is a clear acknowledgement that human life exists when the zygote has formed, at inception. There should therefore be no ‘complexity’, I prefer to call it ‘confusion’ among some pro choice people. It is simply a fact, backed up by centuries of medical science, that human life exists upon fusion, at which point a process begins that will ultimately end up in death, whether that is before 3 months of life in the womb or after 90 years outside the womb. The progression is linear through the lifecycle phases interrupted only by death. There are always two lives in the abortion equation. It wouldn’t be a contentious issue if there weren’t.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:10 AM

    @Sean @114: the embryo is rudimentary and undeveloped. After 26 weeks there is a very fast rate of neural development and organ development. That said, 24 weeks is in the cusp of viability but the vast majority of abortions will be in the first trimester.

    Allowing abortion in Ireland would allow more pregnant women use abortion pills and ensure that abortions are advanced by 2 to 3 weeks.

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    Mute Nydon
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    May 4th 2018, 12:24 AM

    @Sean @114: I don’t s

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    Mute Nydon
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    May 4th 2018, 12:34 AM

    @Sean @114: Oops I’ll try that again.
    I don’t disagree.
    I was merely stating both points of view as I understand them.
    For me, the Idea that one only becomes human when someone else wants you to be human is not tenable and would not be tolerated at any other stage along the lifecycle- so I have decided to go with inception (or more properly stated, conception) as being the tipping point between cells and human.

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    Mute Alois Irlmaier
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    May 4th 2018, 2:51 AM

    @Alan Leahy: You just describes your frontal lobe to a tee…

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 9:00 AM

    @Nydon: I completely agree. Others will not and some extremists will even claim that human life doesn’t exist at all in the womb. But each to their own.

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    Mute Nosmo King
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:17 PM

    The referendum is solely about changing the constitution regarding the ability to later change the eight amendment. Why can the referendum not be about voting on the actual wording of the proposed change. Why are we being asked to vote on something that it is not being laid out in clear language for all to understand what the exact consequences will be if there is a change ?

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    Mute Dermattg
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:36 PM

    @Nosmo King: good question. Do we trust our political parties? Our politicians? Our Taoiseach? Have they gone back on pre-poll promises? Who do they serve? Which groups have their ear at present? Do they engage in open and honest debate? Would they withhold or deny knowledge of facts? Never have we been in more need of a genuine statesman/woman in this country. Hillary Clinton once asked Mother Theresa why she thought there had never been a female POTUS. She replied that it was likely she had been aborted before birth.

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:49 PM

    @Nosmo King: because a constitution is no place for an entire piece of legislation. It’s also no place restrictions on healthcare.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:18 AM

    @Nosmo King: do you know the difference between the role of the Constitution and the role of legislation?

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    May 4th 2018, 1:01 AM

    @Michael Lang: No , probably like most of the population. That’s why I asked the question. I’m trying to be informed so that I can make the right decision, like most of the population. But thanks for your reply anyway.

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    Mute Stephen Adam
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    May 4th 2018, 11:34 AM

    @Nosmo King: It has been laid out very very clearly. Do you wish to remove the 8th in its entirety? Yes or no?

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    Mute Nosmo King
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    May 4th 2018, 1:24 PM

    @Stephen Adam: What will replace it then if it is removed ?

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    Mute Stephen Adam
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    May 4th 2018, 2:56 PM

    @Nosmo King: Nothing. This is very clear and very well explained for months now. Visit referendum commission.

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    Mute Nosmo King
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    May 4th 2018, 4:52 PM

    @Stephen Adam: Is there not a proposal to insert something in place of the 8th ?

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    May 4th 2018, 6:20 PM

    @Nosmo King:. Quite obviously there isn’t and the simplest of google searches would tell you that. I have to assume you’re a troll.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:07 PM

    If the 8th Amendment is retained, there can be no abortion in Ireland in the case of the following:-

    Danger to the health of a woman

    A woman impregnated as a consequence of rape

    A woman impregnated as a consequence of incest.

    An under age girl who is impregnated even if her health is put at risk by continuation of pregnancy.

    A woman who may face a real and substantial danger to her life in the future but which is not yet a present danger.

    A woman who has a foetus with fatal foetal abnormality.

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    Mute Scott Peterson
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:11 PM

    @Michael Lang:
    Typical Yes side sensationalist and emotive propaganda. Probably best if you stick to the Catholic bashing.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:22 PM

    @Scott Peterson: actually thats the truth

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:23 PM

    @Scott Peterson: with which of the above do you disagree?

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:27 PM

    @Scott Peterson: the 8th Amendment is the responsibility of the institutional Roman Catholic Church and the more hardline Roman Catholics who follow the dictates of the institutional Roman Catholic Church.

    Moderate Roman Catholics have their devout Catholic principles but the don’t require to impose their sincere religious views on our laws and Constitution.

    It’s the institutional Roman Catholic Church which foisted the wretched 8th Amendment on us. The victims are pregnant women and pregnant children.

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:46 PM

    @Scott Peterson: have you seen the one about abortion at six months with the picture of the six month old baby?

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 12:04 AM

    @Michael Lang: yet if the 8th is removed the only protection that the unborn life has, retaining it’s living status, is removed. In addition, the new legislation will introduce abortion on demand up to a minimum of 3 months.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 4th 2018, 12:14 AM

    @Sean @114: the only protection that an unborn has is a willing woman. The unborn was deprived of protection when all Irish people voted for the freedom to travel. The fetus has as much protection as the woman need time to gather money for an airline ticket. Self deception is a great thing they say.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:16 AM

    @Sean @114: the foetus will still be protected by the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 unless or until amending legislation is introduced but pregnancy women will be more protected..

    I value the life of one pregnant woman far more than a million foetuses.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 9:03 AM

    @Marie McCormack: we’re talking about Irish law here Marie. You can travel to New York and buy a Glock in Wallmart. You can’t do it here. If people want to legally kill others in another country then we can’t prevent that here. Simples.

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    Mute PROLIFE MOM
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    May 4th 2018, 12:09 AM

    Love how they gloss over the part about the injection into the stomach part. They forget to mention that it is potassium chloride that is used to abort babies through an injection to the heart, inducing a heart attack* is also used as lethal injection where the death penalty is legal in the US. The injection doesn’t always hit the target of the heart (though obviously they use ultrasound to try guide) & that the back or head etc can be injected instead. The death is more prolonged & painful then. At least tell the truth so people can make an informed decision.

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    Mute Patrick Mallon
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    May 4th 2018, 12:18 AM

    @PROLIFE MOM: I wasn’t aware that it was that sadistic, lord have mercy on the poor souls. Protect our unborn, vote no on the 25th. Don’t be fooled by thy numbers, the no side can defeat this. Poor souls

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:19 AM

    @PROLIFE MOM: most abortions are by means of abortion pills at a point before 12 weeks when the foetus has no brain or neural system.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:22 AM

    @PROLIFE MOM: and even at 24 weeks the foetus is unaware, has no capacity for sentience and does not have the neural pathways for pain.

    I value one pregnant woman more than a million foetuses.

    I value my wife far more than all the foetuses that ever existed.

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    Mute Nydon
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    May 4th 2018, 1:33 AM

    @Michael Lang: That is a bit of a contradictory statement – since your wife was actually one of “the fetuses that ever existed”.

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 4th 2018, 1:38 AM

    @Nydon: bravo

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    Mute Aidan Crowley
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    May 3rd 2018, 9:17 PM

    If the 8th is Repealed then the legislation has to pass the Dail and the Seanad before it becomes law.
    I can see this issue collapsing the government and making forming a new government very difficult.

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    Mute Charliegrl80
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:10 PM

    @Aidan Crowley: I will not be voting to repeal due to the government we have in power that has called for the election on the 8th, because I do not trust one of them after the scandal this week and all the other scandals in the not to distant past. I wouldn’t trust them to legislate to grow a shamrock, and it will all end up in the next new scandal where they are all invested in the demise of human life from conception.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:43 PM

    @Charliegrl80: so hard luck for women impregnated by rape or incest or under age girls made pregnant.

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    Mute Patrick Mallon
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:18 PM

    @Michael Lang: oh Michael give it a rest at least one night, I for one am pretty browned off reading your nonsense, everyone is wrong and your always right. People are entitled to vote no if that’s what they want to do.

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    Mute Marie McCormack
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:20 PM

    @Charliegrl80: Haha was funny. It is not that you do not trust the government, you just want to force your worldview and way of life on others. Government has nothing to do here, women make decisions one way or another not the government.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:28 PM

    @Patrick Mallon: why do you not just mute my comments or ignore them?

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    Mute Patrick Mallon
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:41 PM

    @Michael Lang: because two out of every three comments are yours, its impossible to avoid. Plus you do border on bullying. Just respect that other people have a different view to yours. You come close to spoiling what should and could be a healthy informed debate

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:54 PM

    @Patrick Mallon: muting me will allow you focus on the other comments.

    The other give away is that my name is printed in bold overveach comment. So avert your gaze as a nun would avert her gaze from an obscene image and continue on your merry way.

    I express my views. I’m very happy for you to express your views but your obsession on the frequency of my comments is diverting your from addressing the issue under debate.

    Go back to the topic. Focus.

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    Mute Patrick Mallon
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    May 4th 2018, 12:11 AM

    @Michael Lang: your a bore.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:14 AM

    @Patrick Mallon: thanks Patrick. You fascinate me. That powerful intellect of your and your focus on relevance are your string points.

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    Mute Alois Irlmaier
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    May 4th 2018, 2:54 AM
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    Mute Larissa Caroline Nikolaus
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    May 4th 2018, 5:01 AM

    @Patrick Mallon: *you’re

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    Mute TradingDuck
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    May 4th 2018, 6:15 AM

    @Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: well done Larissa. You’ve just showed yourself to be as boring as Michael with that comment.
    What age are you people? I’m beginning to suspect the journal attracts really young readers

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    Mute Charliegrl80
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    May 4th 2018, 9:53 PM

    @Marie McCormack Your entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine – you are trying to convince someone to vote. I myself believe in that right to vote whether it is yes or no and I respect everyone beliefs and the they way they choose to vote – Only the ballot box will give us the answer to on yes or no not you or I.

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    Mute Niallers
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:45 PM

    Forgive my igorance . How do they know the age of fetus? How is that calculated?

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    Mute Thunder Snowman
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    May 3rd 2018, 8:59 PM

    @Niallers: Ultrasound scans are used to calculate the age of the embryo/foetus. They are quite accurate.

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    May 3rd 2018, 9:45 PM

    @Thunder Snowman: I see it now above in the article thanks. It’s from date of last period.

    Doctor calculates age of fetus based on the date he/she is told. Let’s hope the doctor is given an accurate date.

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    Mute Jonathan
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:02 PM

    @Niallers: Correct, they use the date of the last menstrual cycle to estimate the age of the baby. I don’t think ultrasounds are done until after 12 weeks as part of antenatal care. I also doubt they would do an ultrasound if the mother was considering aborting the baby for obvious reasons.

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:25 PM

    @Niallers: Early obstetric transvaginal ultrasound (can be used from 5 weeks after mensuration) compares the size of an embryo or fetus to a reference group of gestational ages. Another method is a bimanual exam, the doctor places two fingers into the vagina and presses on the cervix using their other hand to press down on the uterus, the size, shape and firmness of the uterus is used to determine gestational age. 

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:26 PM

    @Jonathan: it’s not part of the standard pregnancy care to preform ultrasound that early but they are available from the 5th week.

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 10:30 PM

    @Karen Wellington: thank you for that informative and accurate comment.

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    Mute Andrew England
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    May 4th 2018, 10:26 AM

    Can I ask a question re bodily autonomy. For women who believe they should have full control over their own bodies, does this mean they would be in support of unrestricted abortions past the 12 week threshold and feel the decision should be their own to take, if further legislation was proposed down the road? Or does how developed the foetus or unborn babies (depending on what you want to classify it as) impact upon how autonomous they deem their body to be.

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    Mute Stipe Miocic
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:20 PM

    What happens if a women finds out after about 10 weeks that her baby is going to be born with Downs Syndrome? Let’s say the mother wants an abortion because she doesn’t want to deal with raising the baby. Is that right?

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    Mute Dermattg
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:39 PM

    @Stipe Miocic: Karen Gaffney has some interesting views on that… https://youtu.be/HwxjoBQdn0s

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:44 PM

    @Stipe Miocic: it is for the pregnant woman to decide according to her own circumstances which she knows best.

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    Mute Katie Wrest
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:53 PM

    @Stipe Miocic: not exactly sure, but I think tests for any abnormalities like downs can only be done from 14 weeks onwards?

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    Mute Dermattg
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    May 3rd 2018, 11:55 PM

    @Michael Lang: and Karen would disagree Michael
    https://youtu.be/HwxjoBQdn0s

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    May 4th 2018, 12:01 AM

    @Stipe Miocic: amniocentesis is the standard test the HSE conduct to screen for DS, it’s performed at 15 weeks.

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/a/amniocentesis/

    CVS is the other option, it’s not standard it’s only offered to those who are high risk or can pay privately (and if you can afford this test you can afford to travel)

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/c/chorionic-villus-sampling/

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    Mute Michael Lang
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    May 4th 2018, 12:02 AM

    @Dermattg: I still hold to my view. Karen may know what is best for her but each pregnant women knows what is best for her.

    I want pregnant women to be legally free to decide for themselves.

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    Mute Sean @114
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    May 4th 2018, 9:19 AM

    @Michael Lang: blowing my bosses brains out with a shotgun may be best for my mental health but it doesn’t make it right.

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    Mute Alois Irlmaier
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    May 4th 2018, 2:49 AM

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/8904455/Abortion-costs-30m-higher-than-previously-thought.html
    “Department of Health estimated a total of £90m was spent on abortions in 2009-10”
    “taxpayers spent £118m on abortions in 2010, of which £75m went to private clinics and just £44m to NHS bodies.
    The total number of terminations carried out in England rises from 136,000 to 173,000 and the cost of each one from £660 to £680 under the revised figures.”
    So how will abortions cut into the HSE budget and how will that effect other services within the HSE service. Will it crash the HSE, leave more on trollies and less with treatment they need?

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1997/05/abortion-in-american-history/376851/
    “Almost half of American women have terminated at least one pregnancy, and millions more Americans of both sexes have helped them, as partners, parents, health-care workers, counselors, friends.”
    So how many women here will eventually have abortions then?

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    Mute Andrew England
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    May 4th 2018, 10:39 AM

    Can I ask a question re bodily autonomy as the statement confuses me a little. If a woman believes the she should have full control over her body something that sounds like it makes sense in theory. Does this mean that she would support abortion without restriction past the 12 week threshold proposed, if this were to be further legislation proposed down the line. Or does how developed the foetus or unborn baby (whatever you choose to classify it as) impact upon how autonomous the woman views her body as being?

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    Mute Laura Sova
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    May 4th 2018, 8:35 AM

    Can fetuses feel pain?
    Important neurobiological developments occur at 7, 18, and 26 weeks’ gestation and are the proposed periods for when a fetus can feel pain. Although the developmental changes during these periods are remarkable they do not tell us whether the fetus can experience pain.
    Free nerve endings, the “alarm buttons,” begin to develop at about seven weeks’ gestation1,2; projections from the spinal cord, the major “cable” to the brain, can reach the thalamus (the lower alarm) at seven weeks’ gestation.
    At this time, however, the nervous system has yet to fully mature. No laminar structure is evident in the thalamus or cortex, a defining feature of maturity. Without thalamic projections, these neuronal cells cannot process noxious information from the periphery.
    The first projections from the thalamus to cortex (the higher alarm) appear at 12-16 weeks’ gestation.
    Observations suggest thalamic projections into the cortical plate are the minimal necessary anatomy for pain experience. These projections are complete at 23 weeks’ gestation. The period 23-25 weeks’ gestation is also the time at which the peripheral free nerve endings and their projection sites within the spinal cord reach full maturity.1 By 26 weeks’ gestation the characteristic layers of the thalamus and cortex are visible, with obvious similarities to the adult brain
    Although the view of a neonate as a blank slate, or tabula rasa, is generally rejected, it is broadly accepted that psychological processes have content concerning people, objects, and symbols, which lay in the first instance outside the brain.16,17 w7-w9 If pain also depends on content derived from outside the brain, then fetal pain cannot be possible, regardless of neural development.
    The neural circuitry for pain in fetuses is immature. More importantly, the developmental processes necessary for the mindful experience of pain are not yet developed. An absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal. Nevertheless, proposals to inform women seeking abortions of the potential for pain in fetuses are not supported by evidence. Legal or clinical mandates for interventions to prevent such pain are scientifically unsound and may expose women to inappropriate interventions, risks, and distress. Avoiding a discussion of fetal pain with women requesting abortions is not misguided paternalism21 but a sound policy based on good evidence that fetuses cannot experience pain.
    The neuroanatomical system for pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks’ gestation.
    A developed neuroanatomical system is necessary but not sufficient for pain experience.
    Pain experience requires development of the brain but also requires development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain.
    Development of the mind occurs outside the womb through the actions of the infant and mutual adjustment with primary caregivers.
    The absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the morality of abortion but does argue against legal and clinical efforts to prevent such pain during an abortion.

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