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TWO OPINION polls on the Eighth Amendment referendum shows that the ‘Yes’ side is ahead, with the number of undecided voters declining.
The Sunday Business Post/Red C poll published today shows that 56% are in favour of voting to repeal the Eighth Amendment, a three-point increase on the same question last month.
The No side is up one point to 27%, while the number of ‘don’t knows’ is at 14%. Three percent refused to answer.
As an additional question, people were asked to estimate the result of the referendum, a technique which predicted the result of the same-sex marriage referendum exactly.
The ‘wisdom of the crowds’ technique predicted that in the Eighth Amendment referendum next Friday, 56% would vote ‘Yes’ and 44% would vote ‘No’.
The poll of more than 1,000 adults was taken between 10 and 16 May. Today’s poll is likely to be one of the last national surveys to be published before polling day.
A Sunday Times/Behaviour & Attitudes poll, also published today, showed that the ‘Yes’ side is on 52%, rising by five percentage points, and that the ‘No’ side is on 24%. When the undecideds are removed, that represents a 68-32 lead for the ‘Yes’ side, according to the poll.
The last poll on the issue, published in the Irish Times on Thursday, showed support for removal of the Eighth Amendment at 58% to 42% once undecideds are excluded.
Including those yet to make up their minds, the Yes vote was placed at 44% with the No vote at 32% and 17% undecided. 7% said they would not vote or declined to say.
Campaigning continued this weekend, with high profile figures on either side of the debate making appeals to win over undecided voters.
“We are now in the final week of campaigning in the referendum to remove the eighth amendment. The eighth has caused and continues to cause untold suffering to women. Next Friday is an opportunity to right this wrong,” Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald said, canvassing on Dublin’s Moore street yesterday.
“At all times in this campaign we must ground ourselves in respect and fact and recognise that every day women in this country are suffering under the eighth amendment.
“The fact is that the eighth amendment causes further trauma to victims of rape.
The fact that the eighth amendment forces young girls to import abortion pills illegally at great danger to themselves.
The fact is that women are suffering and will continue to suffer under the eighth amendment.
The crucial fact is that removing the eighth amendment is the only way to help women who are seeking a termination because they are pregnant as a result of rape or who are dealing with the devastating diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality.
Catholic primate Archbishop Eamon Martin said in his latest message that to be against abortion is not simply “a Catholic thing”.
The innate dignity of every human life is a value for the whole of society – for people of all faiths and none. It is rooted in reason as well as in faith. To take away an innocent human life can never be simply a matter of personal choice.
Martin appealed to voters to say no to repealing the Eighth Amendment “and then do everything you can to ensure that our country will always provide the best possible care and support for all mothers and their unborn children”.
Voting in the Eighth Amendment referendum begins at 7am this coming Friday, with polls closing at 10pm.
- With reporting by Daragh Brophy
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Wouldn’t you have to laugh at Maria Steen for coming up with “social abortion” for describing the termination of crisis pregnancies in the absense of health issues with either the foetus or the mother. Is it like being a social drinker or a social smoker?
“Are ya big into abortions?”
“Oh no, I’m a social abortionist. I only have the odd abortion when I’m out with friends”
WTF are ya talking about Steen? #repealthe8th
@Cathal O’Neill: No, laughing was the last thing that crossed my mind actually.
@Cathal O’Neill: so how would you explain the high number of women who have had more than 2 abortions -
@Cathal O’Neill: well it comes down to whether you want to remove the ONLY human right for the unborn from the constitution by voting yes or keep that human right and vote NO. That’s what happens if 8th is repealed.
@Kim Murphy:contraceptive failure being one
@Greg Kelly:why do you want to take away the woman’s 100% human right to her bodily autonomy..
@Greg Kelly: if we do it I suppose other countries will do the same, oh right, were the only country that says a woman must surrender her rights at conception
@Cathal O’Neill: woman’s body, woman’s choice. Doesn’t matter how many times, you don’t know the circumstances behind those statistics. And for Steen to use the dismissive language of “social abortion” shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding of those circumstances. I don’t believe abortion is a choice anyone would take lightly. Women shouldn’t need to justify their need for bodily autonomy; they are not incubators and should not have motherhood thrust upon them by failed contraception (for example). I for one trust them to make the right choice.
@Francis Mc Carthy: we are not voting to take away that right. We are only being asked next week to remove the only human right that the unborn baby has in our constitution. The politicians have made a mess of this. They could have inserted, changed or amended the wording in the constitution to allow for what you are saying and then we could vote on it but they didn’t. They messed up here on the human rights side of our whole constitution now. Vote NO
@Cathal O’Neill: Her and her ilk think very little of other women and she certainly doesnt trust women….in her ignorance she probably thinks that women all over Ireland will one day think “ah i dont fancy a sandwich for lunch I think I will get an abortion instead”
@Greg Kelly: Nice try,but no cigar…i asked you ,why do you want to take away the woman’s 100% human right to her bodily autonomy..?
you are concerned about human rights,yes ?
@Greg Kelly: Well said Greg. 100% agree. They have made a mess of it and divided the country down the middle.
@Greg Kelly: What about the woman? Ive listened to you bangin on about the unborn baby for weeks now, yet not one mention of the woman who is ALIVE?
@Francis Mc Carthy: ” i asked you ,why do you want to take away the woman’s 100% human right to her bodily autonomy..?”
Hop into your car,if you are old enough, and kill the nearest pedestrian for no reason and that is ‘bodily autonomy’ otherwise known as anarchy. It is also the right and legal entitlement sought by people who only see one human life in a pregnancy despite there being two lives involved.
@Gkell1: wtf are you waffling on about ? Even if i seriously injure someone by driving into them,they still cannot get to use my organs to save their life….now stop annoying me with your bs
@Susan Adair Farrelly: of course we have to protect woman. She comes first totally and currently does under our law. There were 25 abortions here in IRELAND in 2016 on women’s health grounds. We have protection already under current law. . This is not about that. It’s about removing the only right that the unborn has from the constitution. The government could have put other wording in to replace the 8th instead of repeal to allow for other cases such as FFA and then we could vote on that. But they messed up!!!
@Kim Murphy: I’d probably be inclined to blame the church’s opposition to proper sex education and contraception myself.
@Francis Mc Carthy: oh Francis. “Bodily autonomy”, “human rights” and “using organs” in the space of 3 posts. You clearly have the abortionists’ dictionary open this morning. I didn’t see trust women there but it’s on the way isn’t it? Ending life when both mother and baby are healthy is nothing other than social abortion. Vote No to stop it.
@Greg Kelly: how did the 8th protect Aisha Chitira’s life ?
And every pregnancy/childbirth is a physical/mental health risk to the woman-you’d agree with me,yes ?
@Francis Mc Carthy: There are two humans lives involved in pregnancy so while you and many in politics, including the leader of the main political party, doesn’t see it, other people do. Killing a human for no reason is not an entitlement nor a right either in the womb or outside of it.
@El Diego: “Ending life when both mother and baby are healthy is nothing other than “social abortion” ” <- looks like Sean has been swallowing the Marie Stein bs :)
Are you implying that a woman's mental health is to be not recognised ? wow!
How do you know that the 6 week old embryo was "healthy" ?
As long as I'm alive,I'll never forget the "love both" guy (you) saying that he doesn't doesn't care if a woman jumped off Liberty Hall…
@Gkell1: false equivalence.
@DJ François: I don’t see a yes/no or choice/no choice electorate, I do see a more expansive view that there are two lives involved in a pregnancy and when gender of boy and girl is established, the protection of the law kicks in.
The law today is a passive entity for those who are productive and creative in their day to day lives or it is simply there in the background but that changes when it becomes weaponised for one section of society through a small circle of politicians and advocacy groups. For people who know the joy of two lives in a pregnancy that becomes dismaying in the extreme.
@Francis Mc Carthy: if only you could provide a link to that post Francis somebody might actually believe you. You said that you don’t believe that life exists in the womb at all and that it’s okey dokey with you if women abort right up to full term FOR ANY REASON. Shocking but it does indicate where the angry vocal mob like yourself are coming from, pretending to care about the “hard cases”. Vote No to social abortion Francis.
@Cathal O’Neill: I know a woman who decided to have an abortion as her friends were going to Ibiza for a week and she didn’t want to miss out. She was 3 months pregnant at the time. This is a social abortion.
@Francis Mc Carthy: and what do you think a fetus is? I believe it to be the beginning of a human life so it should have right too! I will be voting no as this government mess up the whole thing and while I trust some women I most certainly do no trust this government to do anything right or to even enact the correct legislation if the 8th is repealed. There is an election looming after the referendum and our politicians will do nothing that could harm their vote or parties.
@Greg Kelly: and how many travelled or took pills! They are the reasons to repeal the 8th.
@Cathal O’Neill: She quoted Peter Boylan himself regards social abortion.
@El Diego: even when the woman has been raped?
@Greg Kelly: Wrong. The constitution is no place for legislation (like this). Advances in science and medicine are fluid and changing. If legislation needs to be changed, it can be changed easily and quickly by the Oireachtas without this lock on the ability to legislate which is what the 8th amendment is.
@Cathal O’Neill:
Oh dear, judging by the number of actual (or contrived) ‘up votes’ you seem to represent the ‘yes’ side. That’s worrying. Being reading Kafka again, have you ?
@Declan McArdle: “Advances in science and medicine are fluid and changing.”
Yes they are in many fronts including the determination of gender at 7 weeks -
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/health/10birth.html?_r=1
It will mean a 5 week window between 7 weeks and 12 weeks will exist where the crime of being the wrong gender (boy/girl, son/daughter, him/her) comes under the umbrella of ‘no reason’ to end their life.
The protection of gender would normally kick in at 2 months but when people can manage to ignore that there are two lives involved in a pregnancy, that fact is medically and willfully ignored.
@Cathal O’Neill: she is about self promotion and knowing this campaign is nearly over she wants to become our Katie Hopkins
@Greg Kelly: yep shows don’t trust politicians trust women don’t hide behind politicians or legislation or wording it won’t be mandatory it will be a woman’s choice the most qualified person to make that decision
@Greg Kelly: Voting no will not stop abortions! You are saving no child by voting no. Any woman who finds themselves in crisis will go to England. Those who can’t afford it will take dangerous risks and buy pills online. There’s going to be a tragedy surrounding this if we don’t act. We have ignored this problem again and again. With each referendum the no campaign slide back under their rock and nothing changes. Women still travel. We are not treated much better going through the maternity services. The “vote no” campaign want you to waver..wobble.. etc vote no on the day and then they will slope off and leave another generation of women to fend for themselves … the lies they are putting out about wanting to help women in their time of need are appalling.
@Kim Murphy: Have you any hard data to back up that claim Kim? I’m voting no, but let’s not have anyone making big statements on figures unless they can back the figures up.
@Cathal O’Neill: if you’ve an issue with the term “social abortion” take it up with your very own Peter Boylan.
“Dr Peter Boylan, in his book The Irish Pregnancy Book, explains that “most terminations are performed for social reasons but some are performed because of foetal malformation or illness in the mother”.”
@richard fennessy: Maria steen is a woman. Why don’t you trust her?
@Seamus Mac: i trust her to make her own choice on her pregnancy…weird,eh
Here are your EXACT words Sean/el diego :” Ha. I don’t have a ’cause’ Dell. You clearly do. I’m not calling women out on anything. I couldn’t care less if a woman throws herself off Liberty Hall if that’s what she wants to do. But there is a second life, ‘clump of cells’, ‘non-human’ or whatever term pro-abortionists want to use to make their conscience feel better and that life has no say in it’s death. That’s the life I’m concerned about when abortion on demand comes in.” <- WOW!
@Cassie Lyons: probably best that that woman wasn’t raising a child then.
@Greg Kelly: Vote Yes. It is up to 12 weeks and it’ is not concidered an ‘unborn baby’. it is the woman’s health and care and compassion that is missing from this insertion of the amendment in our constitution. In the very first instance at a basic level it takes away our Irish woman’s human rights. #repealthe8th
@Cassie Lyons: and you think this woman should be having babies? You idiot
@Cathal O’Neill: I thought in fairness you might respond to my comment yesterday: “The term originates from both Dr Boylan and the Citizens Assembly who acknowledged that the majority of abortion in the UK were for social reasons – 97% in fact. Maria Steen clarified this on Pat Kenny when he challenged her on it … He immediately cut for a break” WTF are ya talking about Dr Boylan?
@Cathal O’Neill: Oh I understood what she meant and it isn’t the madness you’re claiming. People on opposite sides of this thing can act so ridiculous and pull things out of context.
In the UK, when an unmarried or very young lady gets pregnant, the first thing she often hears is “Are you keeping it?” and not “Congratulations.”
It’s become a societal thing, that abortion is more normal for a single woman to do than going ahead with her pregnancy. She is nearly questioned on why the hell she would want to keep it. Kinda nuts, but that’s how it is. If you lived there even for a short while, you’d see this happening.
Ireland doesn’t have this culture… yet. That’s why it’s so hard to imagine for people who haven’t lived and socialised in a country that has had abortion freely available it for generations.
@Greg Kelly: The problem with that legislation is that it is too loose. Defining exactly how much danger a pregnant mother is in under the current legislation is leaving the door wide open tragedy. Sepsis can set in very quickly and can often be irreversible and doctors are put in a situation where they fear for their jobs based on those decisions. The 8th is just unworkable on so many levels. I mean refusing cancer treatment to someone on the basis that they are pregnant in the knowledge that the baby will die as well. What sort of a society imposes that on someone? I could use many words to describe that imposition but I’ll just say that it is completely unacceptable. I’m not pro abortion and this issue is not black and white but the legislation as it stands is a horrific way to treat anyone
Irish Times poll today shows very grim news for No campaign who are down 5%, the Yes campaign are up 5%. Removing the undecideds (17%) it is 68% for REPEAL and 32% for No. seems the disgraceful behaviour of No has backfired spectacularly.
@Paul Fahey: is that on the print copy? Can’t find it on the App.
@Paul Fahey: that’s the Sunday Times.
@Jane: yes, front page. Go to Broadsheet.ie, I suspect they have front page.
@Paul Fahey: excellent news Paul..That news should get those “love boats” guys/gals choking on their shreddies this morning..
@Paul Fahey: I for one couldn’t be more estatic Paul coming from somebody who voted against the 8th in 1983 .
@Paul Fahey: come the day i predict a 53-55 yes v 47-45 no. If you take a poll of polls i believe it will pass within this range as always narrows before an election regardless of the issue. To win a campaign you need to get the middle ground, and extreme electioneering back fires here, many of the undecideds I have spoken to (and there are many) have not been impressed by the extremism by the no side.
@ktsiwot: I think it will be wider, closer to 60 – 40. I am in Tipp this weekend, Mattie McGrath territory and I have spoken with a number of older voters and they are angry, embarrassed by him in fact. I think people are now seeing through the hyperbole and lies.
@Paul Fahey: disgraceful behaviour? You mean out debating the leader of the political wing of the IRA, Dr Death and Brid “you’re a liar” Smith on CB? What about Dr Boylan’s lies about Sheila Hodgers? The 8th caused her death? It wasn’t even in place until 6 months after her death. Censorship, media bias, lies and misinformation have been the hallmarks of the Yes campaign from the word go. Where will the babies bodies be disposed, hospital incinerators like the UK to keep the rads going? Tuam 2.
@El Diego: your post supports my assertion, people are tired of it, but thanks very much.
@Paul Fahey:Sean @ 114 -you do know that the majority of terminations will be done at women’s own homes :) i’m scarlet for yah…oh,and the UK government stopped the the FEW clinics that were doing that..
@Paul Fahey: will you be celebrating winning the game with your buddies in Atheist Ireland Paul?
@Francis Mc Carthy: would that be the majority of the 14,000 predicted abortions Francis. 18,000 abortions in the UK are late term. That would be about 1400 per year here. Enough to hear a few wards maybe. Chin up lad.
@Paul Fahey: Mattie is incoherent, incompetent, insulting and ignorant, he just roars any inconsistency that comes into his head, the same is true for Mcguirk where ever they got him from, he is car crash quality.
@El Diego: You mean Ireland, the secular republic? I wont celebrate, but I will feel more assured my daughter and her friends will have a more secure, equal future in this beautiful country of ours.
I will celebrate the day the church is removed from education and the health service in Ireland.
@El Diego: crawl back under your rock and don’t come out until the next referendum which will give you something to pass away your lonely life.
@Paul Fahey: I voted against the 8th in 1983 but this time because of the wording of the legislation I will be voting to keep the 8th until such time as our government gets it right. They didn’t get it right back in 1983 and they are still not getting it right. I wanted to vote yes but when I heard the proposed wording for abortions of any pregnancy up to 12 weeks and that included healthy pregnancies that turned me to a no vote.
@Paul Fahey: ” I am in Tipp this weekend, Mattie McGrath territory and I have spoken with a number of older voters and they are angry, embarrassed by him in fact. I think people are now seeing through the hyperbole and lies”, do you think you are doing some sort of reporting for the journal? Paul ‘the pulse of the nation’ Fahy, that is one of the daftest comments I have read from you in a while and you do produce more than your fair share of stupid comments in fairness!
@Joe Conlon: no I do not, I happened to be visiting a relative in South Tipp hospital yesterday and the discussion was being held in the stroke ward by visitors and patients. My parents and their friends also feel McGrath has been an embarrassment. It may not suit your agenda, but it is a fact.
@Charliegrl80: just be aware that you will not be stopping abortion – only forcing women to travel.
@Paul Fahey: Good to hear because if it is repealed himself and other anti-abortion politicians will question “every line and every syllable” of the legislation if it is put before the Dail. Hopefully as time goes by more of his constituents will decide that they have had a gut full of him and will not re-elect him should he go forward in the next general election. He could always join Renua I hear they are looking for new members Renua …Who ????
@Paul Fahey: discussion was being held? U mean started by you Paul to preach your opinion on as many people as possible just like you do here every day. People have different opinions, doesn’t make them wrong, Vote Yes and keep the gob closed. Respect peoples opinions.
@Andrew Cosgrave: Actually no. The conversation was taking place when I walked in. I had no need to preach, because I do not live in the constituency, by I do own a house in it.
@Jane: it’s front page on the Sunday Times not Irish Times. Somewhat different to the headline on this article.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Or choking on their boiled egg – sorry, fully-formed chicken!
@El Diego:
The sound of desperation is loud and clear. The NO campaign have only themselves to blame.
Some of the blatant lies, the obfuscation, the stunts that have been pulled by the NO campaign did more damage that any YES voter could.
In fact, you would be forgiven for thinking the NO campaigners were secret YES voters in Trojan Horse style attack such was the amount of times NO voters shot themselves in the foot.
@Dave Harris: I don’t want to stop crisis abortions, if you actually read my comment correctly. However, our government have proven themselves to be some of the most incompetent politicians ever to sit on a set in Dail Eireann and over the years we’ve had some beauties in all and none parties. I wouldn’t trust one of them to care for any woman in this country unless there’s some gain in it for them, i.e. maybe investing in the new clinics that will eventually open. The proposed legislation on offer by FG is to allow abortions for no reason up to 12 weeks, this is a step to far for me.
@Marie Gunbay: I wouldn’t be a fan of Mattie McGrath, but I though we live in a democracy and every person was entitled to there opinion just as you are no matter what side of your on, and when you stop people having their view you then become a dictator.
@El Diego:”14,000 predicted abortions ” <- That is hilarious stuff from the antis :) If the 8th is saved the antis have 'predicted' that it WILL have "saved 100,000 "lives"" in the next decade..PMSL @ you
@Charliegrl80: YES ITS DISGRACEFUL THAT LEO, SIMON, MICHEAL ETC are not making their advisors and legal teams come up with a simple piece of legislation to protect the vulnerable pregnant women instaed of supporting the termination of over 2500 healthy viable babies a year.
mary lou called for people to think of the families who may lose a mother if the 8th is retained ( has not happened yet ) yet she could stand over along with fore mentioned tds of scores of fathers who committed suicide through home repossessions through their support of bank bailouts . 200 billion would go a long way to help and facilitate the birth of viable healthy babies but more important to look after cronies and their profits.
Just think, in the Constitution of the Republic of Ireland there’s an article that gives the constitution control over a woman’s reproductive systems.
There is no article in the constitution giving it control over a man’s reproductive systems.
While men have total control over theirs, women do not.
Why have women to be subject to such control? Why do they not have the same control that men take for granted?
Repeal the 8th.
@Dave Doyle: Stretching it a bit there. Men are not left holding the responsibility. Vote YES but stop making spurious arguments. Vote because the obvious reason is that women should be able to decide what is best for themselves.
@Simon Peters: What am I stretching? Do women have control over their reproductive systems? The answer is no. Is that control enshrined in the constitution? Yes it is.
Are men subject to the same control? No they are not.
@Dave Doyle: straight out of the abortion manual “control over women’s reproductive systems”. That’s right absolve women of the act of getting pregnant. They just miraculously conceive. What about the child’s right to continue to live. Vote No to retain the child’s right to life?
@El Diego: An embryo is not a ‘child’ ,no matter how many times that you sing it to yourself…
@Francis Mc Carthy: yes we know Francis life doesn’t exist in the womb Francis. How could I forget! Is it a human life Francis? Chant after me “there is no life, there is no life, this is not ending life”. Keep on dreaming lad.
@El Diego: The No side’s focus is all about the fetus, nothing else.
The Yes side focus on women, their right to choose and bodily autonomy. For control over their reproductive systems.
Are you claiming that a fetus has more rights than a woman? That a woman’s only role or status is that of an incubator, a machine?
@Dave Doyle: it’s true!! A dead person has more bodily autonomy than a living woman!! Organs cannot be removed unless the donor agrees!!
@Dave Doyle: it is not the control of female reproductive system but since a woman is the only life giver it is the protection of life.
@Francis Mc Carthy: when does a human become human and why?
@monika: Not the woman’s, the fetus comes first. The pregnant woman is reduced to the role of incubator.
Even when dead, her body will be on life support to keep the fetus alive.
This has actually happened. Such is the 8th amendment.
@Dave Doyle: Any legislation that prevents abortion-on-demand does essentially impose control over a woman’s body- do you support a woman’s right to abort at ANY stage of the pregnancy- if not then you yourself want control over a woman’s reproductive rights- so yes or no answer Dave.
@Dave Doyle:
oh sh@t up yah daft woman….
It’s about the protection of LIFE not about control of private parts …
It will be people like you that will have blood on their hands …
Vote YES for murder !!!!
@Dave Doyle: men do not have the right to kill their children either. The Yes side wants to give women that right.
@Patric Cooney:when does a human become human and why ? eh ? It’s always human,it’s hardly a feline…jeez..
@A Curious Mind:children are born..
@Patric Cooney: When the stages of life are in progress and only natural causes, accident or willful intervention can halt that progress, be it at 12 weeks gestation or 80 years of age.
@Francis Mc Carthy: so you agree that a fetus is human but doesn’t get their right to life?
@Francis Mc Carthy: An embryo is a human, no matter how many times you sing that to yourself.
@Eric De Red: One of the biggest laughs that i had last year,was when two “pro life” guys were giving out to another guy for saying that the embryo that he was showing them wasn’t human..little did they realise that they were being shown an embryo in an elephants womb :-) :-) hilarious ..
@Dave Doyle: Thankyou !
@Simon Peters: Don’t see how that is a stretch. A man is equally responsible for the conception of a child. So what we’re saying is because they don’t carry the child that they are exempt?
Look at at the stage now where what Will be will be. I’m for the no side thats my choice. May not be popular but hey your all for choice so i figured you’ll allow me have a choice to vote also. Can i just say to all the yes side who have yet thankfully to have a miscarriage or loose a child during early stages, call it a child not a feutus. My partner and I have had miscarriages at 9 weeks and 18 weeks. We have little pictures of scans and look at them daily with what might have been ..pleasee dont call to my door and say explain its not a baby until birth its only a feutus. For some on each side im sure you understand pain for those who don’t please have your argument but please be sensitive. And that goes for no side also.
@Mark Murphy: My sister has had three miscarriages,not once did she call it a ‘child’.She actually went onto give birth to three children afterwards..But look,i’m sorry for your losses..
@Francis Mc Carthy: good for her. Not looking for your sympathies but thanks. Well ours have names and we celebrate in our own way birthdays etc. But hey im probably a weirdo for doing something like that. Why should I care about a feutus.
@Mark Murphy:you cared about ‘your’ and your wife’s foetus,Mark..but not every pregnant woman will want to care about something that they have no feelings towards whatsoever..Why do you believe that a woman should be forced to remain pregnant against her will ?
@Francis Mc Carthy: forced ? Where did i say that? Are we making things up here? There is options have abortions just not in this country. So to answer your not forced into anything you have choices. I personally would not want those choices in this country. You would. It’s called a difference of opinion.
@Mark Murphy: I’m going to vote Yes Mark but your reasons for voting No are about the most reasonable and rational that I’ve seen so far in this campaign. It goes to show there are hard cases on both sides. I hope you have had or will have a successful pregnancy and all the happiness that that brings.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Do women not know there is a possibility of becoming pregnant during sex?
@Mark Murphy: I am sorry that you and your partner endured that . It is a difference of opinion though , not all women equate a miscarriage with a baby , we see a ‘potential baby’ or and feels it’s an embryo
@Molly1952: true Molly. Hate the arguments on both side. I actually wish there was no debate on this, just the questions put to us on polling day and off we go. We have went on to have a little girl which is great but I still love and cherish our babies that we not meant to be. Your voting yes for your reasons and best of luck to you as you said there is hard cases both side.
@Jonathan:Do “pro life” people know that women WILL finds way to terminate an unwanted pregnancy if they haven’t got access to a safe,legal one ?
consent to sex is not consent to a pregnancy
@Mark Murphy: So you are forcing thousands of Irish women to either a) procure the abortion pills online ,or b ) go to the UK
@Mark Murphy: Mark miscarriages are absolutely horrendous for those of us that are ecstatic about being pregnant. We dream of the blue line on the test, picture the pregnancy bump, imagine the baby in the pram. But for those who see a blue line & feel utter despair, surely they should have the choice of termination at home? Their choices now are to terminate in the Uk which is not ok for us to continue with, buy pills online with no medical
Support or have the unwanted baby. If they choose to have the baby it’s often down to a lack of money to travel or a fear of buying pills online. The 8th punishes the most vulnerable women in our society… women who are alive with feelings, dreams, etc. Your own experience is very sad, but it doesn’t give you the right to choose for every woman.
@Francis Mc Carthy: what did she call it? What would she have called it when it started kicking, ET???
@Jenni Harrison: lack of money to travel? Ah come on. Ever heard of Ryanair? Dearer to get a train from Cork to Dublin to terminate a child than a flight to Liverpool. That’s a ridiculous excuse to introduce abortion on demand.
@Francis Mc Carthy: So you are forcing thousands of Irish some to either a) abort babies as they chose, or b ) abort babies as they chose.
@Jonathan: Do men?? Or are you one of those men who say “ women should keep their legs crossed “?
@El Diego:eh ? You’ve been puffing away on Marion’s powerful wacky backy
@El Diego: I dont believe her comment at all. Your pregnant and when you announced you were pregnant did you tell everyone you were having a featus? Doubt it. All made up to make a counter argument
@El Diego: ever heard of the poverty line? Or young people? There are women screaming on a support page for cervical cancer saying they can’t afford €80-€100 to have a private smear test done even though they have symptoms and are scared stupid. There are also teenagers with crisis pregnancies. Not everyone can afford a Ryanair flight, train in the uk, etc.
@Mark Murphy:i’m VOTING to give them the option of procuring a safe,legal abortion in their own country…In cases of FFA -i actually don’t want to see those Irish women have to continue to take out Credit Union/bank loans so that they can get a procedure carried out on them in the UK..
If you’re happy for this to continue,then go ahead and keep on voting NO
@Mark Murphy: it’s a wee bit ironic seeing you with your Clinton/Kaine avatar…
@Francis Mc Carthy: I will be voting NO regardless. Cheers
@Francis Mc Carthy: What are you talking about? Yes it is as everyone knows the risks involved. Everyone on the planet knows that there is a possibility of pregnancy during sex. Only a fool would suggest otherwise.
They teach safe sex in schools for crying out loud….contraception is 99% effective if used properly.
Do you think a woman should be able to have an abortion because she didn’t use contraception and took a risk?
@Jenni Harrison: yes Jenni I was born working class I know exactly what it’s like to scrape a few bob together. Look up the price of train tickets in Ireland and the price of Ryanair flights. I think if one is going to intentionally end a life and dispose of it for social reasons then one should be prepared to pay the price of a few packets of cigarettes for a Ryanair ticket for this “healthcare” privilege.
@Colette Kearns: Your whole campaign is about trusting women not men. Now can you tell me as a women, are you aware that there is a risk of getting pregnant from sex?
@Francis Mc Carthy: what that I supportred clinton and have not changed my profile since? Ya REALLY ironic..Well done .
@Jonathan: do men not know the woman doesn’t get pregnant on her own!! What a chauvinistic remark! You want to leave the contraceptive up to the woman but it’s not her decision how to deal with it afterwards.
@Terri McCormick O’Gorman: Yea agreed it takes 2 to tango. Both parties are responsible for taking precautions. But the fact still remains that men don’t get pregnant. If a women really does not want to get pregnant she can protect herself as she is responsible for her own body.
It’s really that simple. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.
@Mark Murphy: Mark, I would not bother responding to that embittered harridan. I’ve observed her inputs for a time: absolutely no empathy, but plenty of cliches.
@El Diego: Ryan air don’t do the abortion the other travel and the hotels
@Jonathan: if we’re going with contraception being 99% effective, and the stats are that 80% of the abortions in the UK are whilst using contraception. Are you telling us that you are happy with abortions if they have used contraception and made efforts to stay away from a pregnancy they don’t want? Or you just want women to keep their legs closed?
@Martin Thomas: true. She or he just makes the yes side sound desperate.
@EDun: 80% of uk abortions are down to failed contraception. Sorry but statistically that’s impossible as contraception is 99% effective when used properly.
Either most of the women are telling lies about how they became pregnant or the scientific community is telling lies about the effectiveness of contraception.
What I am trying to say is that, when 2 adults engage in sexual activity they are both responsible for themselves and the precautions they take. Both adults know themselves the risks involved. Pregnancy and STDs. They both have the choice to take a risk or use protection.
If contraception was used we wouldn’t have 3500 women travelling for abortion and women ordering abortion pills online.
If people make an informed decision and engage in risky sex it’s their own fault and they need to take responsibility for the consequences if any.
@Martin Thomas:”no empathy” <- i've never personally gone through a miscarriage so why would i show empathy towards him ? I feel sorry for what has happened to him…but that doesn't mean that i then have to agree with him wanting to force women to give birth to a foetus that has parts of it's skull and brain missing..
@Mark Murphy: so wait! Your choice is to take away my choice? I’m sorry about the loss of your children and I know they are very dear to you but not once have you tried to see it from a woman’s point of view. I wouldn’t make that choice myself but I certainly wouldn’t make it for someone else. You’ve asked people to respect what you’ve been through yet easily condemn all Irish women to your choice! The absolute hypocrisy.
@Francis Mc Carthy:
No one is forcing anyone to do anything, Abortion is not something natural like giving birth, you are killing the unborn, if the law in our country does not allow someone to kill their unborn child how can you say you are forcing her to go to the UK, its like saying a person who uses cocaine in Ireland is being forced to go to another country to buy it because its not legal here. If a person wants to use a certain drug that’s not legal here by all means let them travel to another country where its legal but don’t say we forcing them to travel just because we believe its wrong. No one is forcing anyone to travel for an abortion, its just not legal here so if the wish to have one of course they are free to travel, that’s their choice
@Thomas Troy:abortion is legal in Ireland.It is also legal to give the woman information as to where to go in the UK for that healthcare procedure.Would you mind showing me where the use of cocaine is legal in this country,and where we give our citizens information as to where they can go to get that substance ?
@Deborah Behan: ok deborah calm down. I’ve w mother sisters daughter etc so ya I see if from a woman’s point to a degree. I’m a man so can only see some point. Listen we all knew that a referendum on aborting babies was going to be emotional so you just go vote yes with your group and I’ll vote no with my vote. No matter what happens on Saturday I would like to think that we as the people that were so passionate for this referendum continue to fight for compassion and care when people are in touch decisions. Abortion wont fix all the issues
@Jenni Harrison: but is does give him choice to choose, as this is a democracy and he has been give a vote just as you have and he can indeed choose not to vote, or vote which every way he chooses. In the debate its been called choice and that is his choice.
If Danny Healy Rae say vote no then that’s god enough for me . A plant hire and pub owner with a exaggerated Kerry accent is definitely gong to know what’s right for women’s bodies. #Gammon
@Jimmy jones: If Paul Murphy and Mick Wallace say repeal then we should trust them. They know best. We should trust politicians and hand away our only right in the consitution to have our say on this one human right. Thats the smart thing to do Jimmy – trust politicians
@Greg Kelly: I think you may have missed the very obvious sarcasm there.
@Greg Kelly: It’s actually about trusting the women of Ireland – something the no side clearly doesn’t do.
@Greg Kelly: people are quick enough to trust politicians when it suits. How about just trusting women and medical professionals first. Let them decide if an abortion is the right decision and if it is then let’s not ship them to the UK like second class citizens.
@Morgan Freeman: the trust argument is the weakest one ever.
it’s not about trust it’s about protection of rights. Protection of human rights always trumps trust.
If it was about trust we would trust adults and repeal the gun law but we put protection of life first ahead of trust there also.
Same why we don’t trust motorists not to speed and we don’t repeal the speed laws because protection comes first to protect life on the roads.
@Greg Kelly:”Protection of human rights always trumps trust.” <- but yet you want to remove the woman's 100% Human Right from her
@Francis Mc Carthy: she removes it herself by the choice of getting pregnant.
@Greg Kelly: that’s the old ‘were protecting her from herself’ argument. The speed laws are not there to protect the people in the car, it is to protect everyone else. If we have abortion laws in Ireland their won’t be doctors running around trying to give pregnant women abortions even if they don’t want it.
@Jonathan: and what if it wasn’t her choice to get pregnant. Sorry, but what an utterly ignorant comment, which is just a polished version of why didn’t she just keep her legs closed.
@Jonathan: can you provide me with a ‘credible’ source for that one ?
thanks
@Paul Fahey: so she was raped. That would be a handful of claims every year. Legislate for it instead of ending 10-14000 lives per year and disposing of the bodies Tuam like.
@Francis Mc Carthy: terminating another life is not a human right Francis. Back to school Francis.
@Jonathan: yea because she got pregnant all by herself!
@El Diego: her right to her bodily autonomy is ,pet :) Did you ever hear of the Peru case ,Sean ?
@Francis Mc Carthy: oops there’s that phrase again “bodily autonomy”. She was in control of that body when she conceived yes? She’s not the virgin Mary right? There was no miraculous conception? Just checking bud. Vote No for the right to live.
@Greg Kelly: you completely missed the point. If you vote yes , Paul Murphy and Mick Wallace will not control women’s bodies . Women will .
@Paul Fahey: Yea there will always be a small percentage of cases of rape where it wasn’t choice. Sorry I wasnt talking about the hard cases.
Everyone knows that one of the risks when having sex is getting pregnant it common sense. Contraception is 99% effective when used properly. This is all teached as part of our education system so there is no excuse for not knowing it.
As informed adults we have to take responsibility for the actions we take. Both men and women know the risks when they have sex.
@Jimmy jones: yes they will have control through legislation in the same way society, government and the law control your body and mine right now through law from drugs to prostitution and assault to prescriptions. All our bodies are controlled by law.
@Greg Kelly: I’ll be making my own mind up, from my own experiences and I definitely don’t need any man telling me what’s best for me. When you’ve had a crisis pregnancy or an FFA you can share your wisdom with the rest of us little women who you believe aren’t qualified to decide for themselves.
@Jonathan: she removes it herself by the CHOICE of getting pregnant?????? Not all pregnancies are CHOSEN. Are you really that naive??? #repeal
@Rachel Giles: Do you not know the risks involved with having sex? Contraception is 99% effective if properly used.
@Jonathan: so, if used properly, contraception is 99% effective, to prevent a pregnancy. What about that 1% when it is not effective and the pregnancy is still not wanted. Listen to yourself.
@Andrew Giles: Yes 1%…..of that tiny 1% are all of them pro abortion as well? I doubt it.
You should do yourself a favour and think a little harder.
If abortion is such a problem in this country(excluding hard cases) then people are not using contraception properly because it clearly scientifically proven to work. That is fact!!!
@Jonathan: that may be so that not all of that 1 % would want to procure an abortion, but the ones that do should be able to make that choice and procure an abortion right here in Ireland, and it is no concern of yours or mine for that to happen. I’m not disputing the effectiveness of contraception, but when it fails, and the pregnancy is still not wanted, there is no choice there, just a law forcing a woman to remain pregnant unless she travels abroad. Voting No is not going to stop this from happening, and voting yes will just allow it to happen here, just like what happened with contraception a couple of decades ago, it became available in Ireland, big fuss about it at the time from the anti contraception side, society didn’t fall apart, did it?
@Andrew Giles: Right so you agree that contraception is effective. I think both sides can agree on this as there is factual scientific evidence to back it up.
Can I ask you (excluding hard cases), why do you think there are so many women becoming pregnant when there is reliable and affordable contraception available to all?
@Andrew Giles: You are right it’s no concern of mine but in fairness the taxpayer is the one who is going to pay for this so we should have some say in it all. I would not judge any women for what she does but I have my own view on abortion. I understand and respect where you are coming from but I don’t agree that abortion is the answer.
@Francis Mc Carthy: you are misrepresenting what the case meant. The article you linked even makes it clear for you.
”by denying K.L. access to a legal medical procedure her human rights were violated”
Abortion is not a human right.
https://www.wya.net/op-ed/no-a-un-committee-did-not-affirm-abortion-as-a-human-right/
@Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh: trust ms c then
@El Diego: consent to sex is not consent to a pregnancy,pet…
@Michael Wall:Bodily autonomy is a human right…-> she was entitled to an abortion <- that was her human right…
@Francis Mc Carthy: she was entitled to an abortion, it was a legal right in that country. He human rights were affected because she was not given access to a procedure that was legal in her country. Abortion is not a human right as you tried to spin.
@Jonathan: how many times a year do you think contraceptives are used in this country? 2740 women that travelled to the UK from here for abortions in 2016 said they used contraceptive. Even if we take that as .5% that’s 548,000 couples using contraceptives a year in Ireland. Or 1,500 lads throwing on a johnny every night.
@Jimmy jones: Any man who wants to legalise drink driving is talking sense. The Healy Raes are just so progressive they’re waiting for the rest of us to catch up. He says vote no and he’s the voice of a generation but I’m just not ready. So I’ll be voting yes
In my experience, pro choice people share the same concerns for the environment as the rest of us ie they worry about mankind’s effect on nature, too much plastic in the oceans, they support animal welfare etc. Yet, paradoxically, when it comes to the very basics of nature ie the beginnings of life in the womb and the role that nature has designed for the female body in nurturing life in its first 9 months, they are in complete denial. Being decent people, it’s as if in their heart of hearts, they find it difficult to acknowledge the horror of what they are advocating and are trying to brainwash themselves into believing that abortion is something different to what it actually is…..an outcome of groupthink and propaganda.
@Gregory Murray: thank you for acknowledging that despite us being misguided and unable to bring ourselves to your more enlightened way of thinking, those on the yes side are ultimately “decent people”. I feel better in my skin already!
@Gregory Murray: Abortion is green, reducing the amount of humans born will decrease our carbon footprint
@Gregory Murray: Your ideas of pregnancy are notional. Pregnancy in humans is dangerous in a way it isn’t in other species. Nature didn’t design our bodies for pregnancy as it exists in our species today, it evolved as we evolved. The result is a hazardous undertaking that should never be forced on anyone against their will.
Further, ‘nature’ as you present it aborts 75% of all conceptions. ‘Nature’ allows foeti with horrific malformations to continue developing. Nature can at times be cruel and pitiless. Don’t be like nature!
Being ‘decent people’ maybe you should take a little more time to figure out why we will vote YES…perhaps it is you yourself who finds it difficult to acknowledge the horror of what we put women in crisis pregnancies through.
@Gregory Murray: I’m afraid that it is the No side who are in denial. Whether by pills or travel and whether we like it or not, abortion is a choice being made daily by Irish women. Our own opinion on the procedure doesn’t give us the right to choose for others. Let’s look after our own women in our own country.
If repeal is up 3 and the no side is up one has the gap not widened?
@Jane: most undecideds in a referendum end up voting for status quo so is too close to call.
It comes down to whether you want to remove the ONLY human right for the unborn from the constitution by voting yes or keep that human right and vote NO. Then we can revisit wording for a new referendum to take care of the FFA rape and incest cases.
@Jane: Correct. The spin on the data by the journal is misleading. There is a greater number in favour of Repeal and the last Irish Times poll showed a greater number of undecideds leaning towards Repeal. No time for complacency though. Everyone needs to come out and vote Yes for women.
@Greg Kelly: it’s no too close to call, even if all the undecideds voted no you would still lose-you simply dont have the numbers.
@Greg Kelly: Most undecideds end up staying at home on polling day.
@Greg Kelly: . Hi. Can you explain why you want to keep the ONLY article in the Constitution where a woman faces up to 14 years if she has an abortion in this country, but it’s perfectly ok with you if she travels to the UK to have this procedure?
@Greg Kelly: can you squeeze in wording for those in destitute situations, chronic addicts, the mentally or physically unwell, this ein abusive relationships, those already looking after a sick child or parents. Etc. Or can we legislate and trust women?
@Mark Donoghue: because it is the ONLY article in the constitution that gives protection to the unborn child.
@Greg Kelly: To be honest I dont think that the proposed legislation goes far enough, based upon some of the children I have seen around Dublin city I would be in favour of abortion up to 9 months. Also you have not considered that if the No side wins, where are we going to put all of the excess children? We are running out of Hotels, Hostels, Shelters and cardboard boxes…seems like very little thought has gone into the No campaign…I plan to vote yes and then seek to extend the proposed limitation be changed to 10 months, just in case one of the little suckers doesnt want to leave the womb on time.
The vote itself is simply handing away the influence and responsibility each citizen has to politicians and lobby groups in life and death matters or law and order issues. It is not a law that is being created but a more momentous change in the nature of the law itself where the purpose of the law no longer protects life on this island but becomes a vehicle for entitlements and rights it should never grant.
@Gkell1: we have general elections every 5 years. If it’s an issue the ppl get to influence that every time.
@Gkell1: “Handing away influence and responsibility…. “. Influence is the direct election of the politicians who write legislation. Responsibility is that abortions wouldn’t suddenly become mandatory, and that the responsibility to choose resides with the individual, not the state.
@Gkell1: I’m confused. So what your saying is that politicians can’t be trusted? Ok… but what has that got to do with a person decision to have an abortion. It’s a personal choice. The government aren’t going to introduce mandatory abortions.
@Shane McGettrick: “we have general elections every 5 years. If it’s an issue the ppl get to influence that every time.”
General elections are decided on party politics, this issue effects every citizen on the island as to the importance of whether we see one life in a pregnancy or two lives. The Oireachtas report is biased towards the first view even though the medical community recognises there are two human lives in a pregnancy.
@Morgan Freeman: ” I’m confused. So what your saying is that politicians can’t be trusted? Ok”
That is your incorrect interpretation but that being said, had the Government taken answers to separate questions on compassionate medical grounds as opposed to 12 weeks/no reason on advisory, it could then safely go ahead and ask the electorate to remove the clause in the constitution. Instead they bundled two separate issues together and polarised an entire population.
Ending the life of a developing child for no reason as an entitlement or legal right alters the nature of the law itself but there is a natural divide in the population which either sees one life in a pregnancy or two lives.
@Gkell1: that sounds like bible talk posing as opinion.
@Gkell1: If abortion is such an important issue to people, surely it should supersede party politics at an election. Once again, the people still have the ultimate influence.
The 2 lives vs. 1 life thing is a whole other story and open to debate. I don’t think any reasonable individual would afford equal rights to a Lima bean sized foetus as to woman anyway.
@Shane McGettrick: “The 2 lives vs. 1 life thing is a whole other story and open to debate.”
You affirm the natural divide that people either see one life involved or two lives and it isn’t open for debate. I don’t experience attraction for the same gender but what I could do was vote for social inclusion in the last referendum but in this instance those who can’t see mother/developing child, son/daughter, boy or girl developing in the womb can’t support those who do see two lives involved.
Pregnancy itself is a description of two lives as is the original meaning of the term ‘fetus’ but those who see only one life can unfortunately dehumanise that boy or girl at 7 weeks (when medically gender can be establish through blood test of the mother) for no reason whatsoever.
@Gkell1: Sorry, no sale. Very few people consider a foetus to be the equivalent to a person, particularly in the early stages of gestation. Thats why people don’t mourn a miscarriage in the same way that they would mourn a dead infant. That might sound blunt, but its the truth.
I’ve seen a number of individuals attempting to humanise the foetus with the gender argument. A foetus could be assigned gender at conception if it was possible to obtain sufficient genetic material, but its still a zygote, a literal single cell.
@Shane McGettrick: “Sorry, no sale. Very few people consider a foetus to be the equivalent to a person, particularly in the early stages of gestation.”
People either see two lives in a pregnancy or they don’t so normally there is no conflict however when those who don’t see the life of a developing boy or girl in the womb are seeking to end the child’s life then it becomes important.
In the same gender referendum, people who had no experience of same gender attraction voted for those who do experience it because it was a vote of social inclusion like all great movements are, however, this issue is an extreme form of social exclusion. We have actually shown the way to the world in the last referendum as they took revisit the whole issues -
” The Obergefell decision legalizing same-sex marriage in every state was also sweeping. It has produced almost no political reaction. The contrast to Roe could hardly be starker. And the explanation is rather simple: All the great civil rights movements have been movements of inclusion…..The abortion rights movement, in contrast, is a movement of autonomy. Its primary appeal is to individual choice, not social inclusion. And the choice it elevates seems (to some people) in tension with the principle of inclusion.”
@Gkell1: You can equally say that all great social movements are about expanding freedoms (be it women’s suffrage, the civil rights movement, or the legalisation of same sex marriage) rather than restricting freedoms (a women’s right to choice). Its interesting that social exclusion/individual thought seems so undesirable to you, but i suppose thats herd mentality for you.
@Shane McGettrick: An entitlement or right to end the life of another human being is not a freedom so you are back at dehumanising language and an inability to recognise the developing child as human. It is why the role of the law itself changes to society in event that the electorate decide to hand their responsibilities to politicians and that is a bigger issue that just pregnancy and two lives. It involves every citizen on this island and how the law itself changes from being a protection of life on this island to being something weakened.
@Gkell1: And you’re back to humanising a foetus while still ignoring the fact that abortions won’t suddenly become mandatory.
@Gkell1: can the foetus survive outside the womb?
@Terri McCormick O’Gorman: “can the foetus survive outside the womb?”
The natural division to see two lives in a pregnancy as opposed only one life sees that question as absurd. A developing child in the womb and a child just born rely on the adult and society to survive regardless but these distractions take away from the momentous step the electorate are about to take.
The Oireachtas report is biased in the extreme in seeing only one life which is why they avoided asking the electorate two standalone questions on compassionate grounds and the spectre of 12 weeks/no reason.
I think at the very least. If you are voting yes or even thinking about it . You should realise what an abortion is for a 12 week old fetus/ baby/ insert whatever.
Take a look online at an abortion taking place on a 12 week old .
I don’t think many in the yes side have seen this.
If you did it would make you think differently.
The question needs to change. Fully repealing goes too far.
The Fetus/baby/insert whatever needs to have some protection in law.
For that reason I am voting no.
@Niallers: by voting NO, you will have MORE Irish women procuring abortions on “fully formed” 12 week old foetuses..
@Niallers: by voting NO, you will have MORE Irish women procuring abortions on “fully formed” 12 week old foetuses..
@Francis Mc Carthy: This is such a horrible referendum.
If the question was to amend for FFA, rape it would be backed by most of the country.
As it stands I’m too conflicted to vote to repeal.
This is why I’m going to vote no.
The question needs to change for me to vote yes.
Anyway, it looks like the yes vote will be carried by a huge majority going by the latest polls.
@Niallers: Either by travel or pills taken without medical supervision, and whether we like it or not, abortion is a choice being made daily by women in Ireland. Let’s look after our own women in our own country.
@Niallers:fair enough..i honestly hope that no Irish woman will have to travel to the UK where she will have to “choose” the surgical abortion over the medical abortion…as this is what happens at the moment..
@Niallers: so you don’t mind abortion just the way the woman got pregnant? Got to control those females eh? What kind of person thinks like that? You should really assess what you think about women.
@Niallers: Honestly, how do you manage to type while you have your head in the sand? I’d pay to see that.
You want to keep a law that fails to prevent this happening at least 9 times a day.
You’ll tell me that by keeping it, we’ll save some, but if that’s your measure of success I’m afraid I want nothing to do with it.
Instead of dividing the country, why didn’t this government not just focus the legislation on the hard cases, that would have passed!….
Allowable abortion up to 6months on grounds not specified is just way too far…..if people see images of what these babies look like I believe they too will VOTE NO.
@Salubrious: because no Irish government can be relied upon to handle something that important correctly. The weekly scandals show that.
@Salubrious: This is not “Allowable abortion up to 6months on grounds not specified”. It’s silly arguments like that that are turning people off the no campaign. If you can put together logical and non-scaremongering arguments, not only will you have a better chance of succeeding, you will also represent yourself personally a little better.
I really hope the Irish people vote with logic and sense and vote yes.
@Michael Flynn: You were married because people who do not feel physical attraction for the same gender were considerate enough to recognise two lives and the love involved. You would not extend that to pregnancy where there are two lives involved and the great human development of boy or girl in the womb.
@Michael Flynn: have you read the proposed Legislation?….Clearly you have not and are just spouting the same empty pro repeal propaganda…..if you can take a moment out and inform yourself, read it…..Policy 9 allows for abortion up to full gestation on grounds not specified…..
https://health.gov.ie/publications-research/legislation/
@Salubrious: again with that lie. That is not the proposed legislation. Here are the requirements for abortion up to viability in the legislation: “It shall be lawful to carry out a termination of pregnancy in accordance with this Head
where 2 medical practitioners certify that, in their reasonable opinion formed in good faith –
(a) there is a risk to the life of, or of serious harm to the health of, the pregnant
woman,
(b) the foetus has not reached viability, and
(c) it is appropriate to carry out the termination of pregnancy in order to avert that
risk.”
@Dave O Keeffe:
Read the legislation below.
The wording in policy 9 is:
‘ That termination of pregnancy for maternal health should not have a gestational limit in the general scheme ‘
It doesn’t specify what maternal health grounds??. Therefore it is horrific to think people would be voting to abort perfectly healthy babies up to 6months and beyond for vague maternal health grounds. Read the paper in full please.VOTE NO…
https://health.gov.ie/blog/publications/policy-paper-on-regulation-of-termination-of-pregnancy/
@Michael Flynn: This is not “Allowable abortion up to 6months on grounds not specified”. It’s silly arguments like that that are turning people off the no campaign.” With all due respect, even though the grounds are specified – mental and physical health – mental health as a ground for abortion is not defined and is not evidence-based. The fact is, a huge proportion of abortions in Britain are performed on mental health grounds. But there is no sound clinical evidence that abortion improves mental health. So it is clearly a backdoor to abortion on demand. And that is exactly what we have in the law being put to the people.
@David Thunder: eh they have to be assessed by two mental health professionals that agree that an abortion would avert the serious mental health issues.
@Salubrious: again, that’s not the proposed legislation. I have quoted the proposed legislation above, you have not posted a link to the proposed legislation. Every time you post it you are called out on it but you still continue to post it.
@Salubrious: Because the legislation they have proposed is sensible and will receive the backing of the majority of the voters – and quite comfortably too.
The emotion you are experiencing right now is called Denial.
If will be followed soon by Acceptance.
@Salubrious: I’d love to see people taking your health so lightly. You’d be up in arms.
I’m voting YES! No going back to Ireland’s dark days. The 8th Amendment is a descendent from the Magdalene launderies, mother and babies home etc etc
@John Carmody: this is not a about religon John it’s about humanity and morality , don’t mix them up
http://uk.businessinsider.com/countries-strictest-abortion-laws-2016-12
We’re not really behind if you want to compare
@Gaz Barclay Dunnes: he’s the only one behind. Some people are still living in the past!!!! Seen a lot of people on here voting yes because of religion, it’s a shame because the referendum is about the rights of the unborn.
@Gaz Barclay Dunnes: We’re a Catholic country, until we’re not then it is absolutely about religion.
@John Carmody: thanks John.
@John Carmody: Good man John ! Thankyou !
Im still an undecided voter, but i think this is a issue the church as to stay out of anyway, all of the mother and babies homes around the country and what went on in there. Then to come our with a comment like that !!! Madness…
@Shirley: interested to known how you could still be undecided? Where is the gap in information you need to go either way?
@Shirley: Hi Shirley, to help you decide, Please see the actual proposed Legislation below. Also important to view an image of what a baby looks like at 12weeks. He/she are fully formed with all organs in place and working.
This is an extremely liberal UK style abortion regime.
https://health.gov.ie/blog/publications/policy-paper-on-regulation-of-termination-of-pregnancy/
https://www.babycentre.co.uk/12-weeks-pregnant
@Shirley: I am a definite ‘Yes’ voter Shirley, but I do understand the hesitation some people have. I just think that what it boils down to is that it’s ok to not like abortion, to know you would never make that decision for yourself, but to also recognize that we must allow other people the right to choose what’s best for them in the circumstances they find themselves in. Unfortunately all the No side boils down to is a head-in-the-sand attitude. Whether by pills or travelling, and whether we like it or not, abortion is happening & is a choice being made daily by Irish women. We should look after our own women in our own country.
@Shirley: I would say if you’re undecided on polling day, don’t vote!!! A non vote speaks volumes too. Why give your vote to a side that you don’t agree with.
@Shirley: well if you don’t vote you’re actually voting for the status quo. Women will still travel, pills will be illegally ordered on the internet and taken dangerously alone risking 14 years in prison for the woman. I think the person in the situation is best to decide what happens to them and their body so I will vote Yes. I trust women.
@Salubrious: No it is NOT ! It is the same law that exists in Germany and in most of Mainland Europe, not the UK. We do NOT have mass abortions on demand over here in Germany, despite having laws allowing terminations up to 12 weeks, for the last 40 years. Irish women are not any more cruel and blood-thirsty than women in Germany or other European countries. Trust them, please. Women have the right not to be refused cancer treatment, just because they are a few weeks pregnant with an embryo.
The gap is narrower due to our political elites threats to vote yes…
@Willy Malone: pretty sure politicians stated their intentions over a month ago. Nothing to do with these figures. But it takes into account the TV debates and ppl have seen through the spin. Steen and Co didn’t sway anyone.
Any chance of finding a random photo of a nun walking past a yes poster just to use for no particular reason in an article? If all else fails try to use the religious angle?
@Greg Kelly: was thinking the same Greg. Some in the media are trying to turn this into a religious issue when it’s not. They’re trying to undermine it and are hoping the negative connotations of the church (which are justified) will stop people looking at the issue in an objective manner.
@Greg Kelly: It’s many issues. Religion is one. Don’t forgot Greg, we are a “catholic country” after all (actually doesn’t that mean that everything has a ‘religious angle’? just to contradict myself).
Poll showing similar signs of the Brexit late poll and what a shock that turned out to be !
@Johnny Mason: different issue and country.
@Johnny Mason: Another lie.. Three/Four days out most polls had remain at around 2% ahead NOT WITH A DOUBLE DIGIT LEAD.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
Polls point to a very close result. I explain why here:
https://twitter.com/EmmaMurphy12150/status/997993619637395456
@Emma Murphy (Vote No on May 25th): nah..but thank you for taking the effort..
@Emma Murphy (Vote No on May 25th): wow, you really do think everyone is stupid. Please could you provide the mai figures in your link? Seriously, read The Sunday Times today and it may help you stop lying and spoofing.
removing undecideds it is 68% Yes and 32% No, 17% are undecided. Best you pray harder, because he is not listening you or McGuirk.
@Paul Fahey: please provide the NO figures, which have lost 5% in latest Sunday Times poll.
@Paul Fahey: god your right laugh. The most boring negative commentator on here. Nearly falling asleep here reading your views not just on the 8th but in general. Go out and get some fresh air will ya
@Emma Murphy (Vote No on May 25th): good attempt to spin something out of yet another poll showing the no side taking a hit.
@Mark Murphy: living here in Ireland, unlike you, I get plenty of fresh air, but you keep on chugging that US air polluted by your grand old party views.
@Paul Fahey: I live in cork and hail from roscommon. Just goes to show a person on the yes said not interestred in facts. Suprised suprise. Just fyi all you had to do was hit my account and view that information but don’t let facts get in your little way.
@Mark Murphy: hmm yes, all of a sudden it says Cork, didn’t last week though did it. Odd that 99% of your Twitter feed is all about US politics too.
@Paul Fahey: no paul it didn’t . I was on holidays in the states. How did you not know that considering you know everything else. Oh sorry ill change all my feeds about irish politics as it was more interesting. I’ve a big interest in american politics very anti trump and pro democrats. Put a little note in your diary im heading to the states next month again, you will see my location change again this time it will say Florida. Odd that you have a little Twitter account for such a vocal person. I believe you can buy friends if u need it
@Mark Murphy: oh of course, but it said it for a long long time. You sir are an utter liar.
@Paul Fahey: good comeback man. We seem to differ on long long time but hey again dont let facts get in the way of your little man agenda. Go get that fresh air you will enjoy it.
A bit long, but covers why the 8th has to go.
What to replace it with is a discussion for another day.
https://hughsheehy.wordpress.com/2018/01/25/abortion-in-ireland-warning-long/
@hughsheehy: “What to replace it with is a discussion for another day.”
You will no longer be a participant in that discussion but a spectator as politicians and interest groups have crafted a swindle in distancing the vote next week from the Oireachtas report. It isn’t about ‘trust women/trust doctor’, a slogan that has since disappeared for good reason, it is that the Government never asked the few questions the electorate could have answered which would have separated compassionate issues from a standalone question on 12 weeks/no reason.
How many electorates in the world would give anything to have influence greater than a small political circle but a majority on this island are enthusiastic about throwing this entitlement away.
@Gkell1: will these politicians force you to have an abortion? No is the answer. They won’t force anyone.
@Gkell1: We’re a democracy and we elect our lawmakers. We’ll have far more of a say if the 8th is repealed and can tweak the laws according to future events. That’s something we can’t do when it’s all set in stone in Bunreacht na hÉireann.
@Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh: ” We’ll have far more of a say if the 8th is repealed and can tweak the laws according to future events.”
The whole point of the vote next week is that you will have no direct say whatsoever in life and death or law and order issues. Each and every person here has their lives protected by the law as no other person can end a life for no reason, it is something you take for granted that everything else is absurd. A ‘yes’ vote obliterates the preservation of blanket protection of life on this island by an indirect Oireachtas report which allows politicians and interest groups an entitlement the do not presently have. You will wake up next week to a weakened law and order which no longer protects life but becomes a vehicle for politicians and lobby groups.
@Gkell1: you seem the only person here who has the ability to see the very essence of the problem. I think that at that point the stubbornness of people to vote yes it driven by their ego and ego only. No matter how clear you present the truth to them, they chose to not hear; and the reason behind it is to live exactly as they want, the way they want, without any consequences, and with no regard for anything and anybody. A bit like 5 years old child who naturally is egocentric. It scares me to see that society lost the ability to see beyond “me” “myself” “I” and “mine”
@monika: ” you seem the only person here who has the ability to see the very essence of the problem.”
To be fair there are so many decent and humane people here trying to articulate within themselves what they experience including those who will vote ‘yes’ out of compassionate medical concerns as opposed to the 12 weeks/no reason standalone issue.
There was no reason why the Government could have asked questions on advisory and then dealt with the clause in the constitution as an afterthought but decided the electorate was best left out of influencing the direction of this life and death matter.
Last week hearing the leader literally threaten that a No vote would result in jail time or complicity of the electorate in the death of a woman was dismaying but I would have to put this down to a learning curve. The very electorate which allows him to marry his partner even though they don’t experience same gender physical attraction doesn’t apply to those who feel physical joy for two lives in a pregnancy. Even the appeal to reproductive and contraceptive innovations now and in future doesn’t stop the mob conviction that only one life matters.
@Gkell1: You’ve heard of these things we have, right? We call them elections.
If you want to influence legislation you can vote, run, form a party…lots of things you can do.
”A nun walks past a yes poster in Dublin earlier this month” haha, the visible bias by the Journal makes me laugh at times.
Look, there are laws existing at the moment that deny all of us the rights to do whatever we want with our bodies. For example I may not use my body to physically harm another or to walk around the city center with no clothes on.
I also believe that someone should not use their body to walk into an abortion clinic and end the life of another body. If it was their body they’d be the one who dies after an abortion not the baby.
I’m voting NO.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: ‘Right’. ‘Look’. ‘Here’. ‘Let me tell you’… you’re not being interview there pal.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: well said Stephen
@Stephen Mc Elligott: bodily autonomy is about control over whom or what uses your body and not what you do with your body. But i guess that would not suit your narritive.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: odd that you and many others coming from similar beliefs and groups who are posting again for this referendum have moved away from voicing objections based on biblical teachings, who at one point years ago were less filtered with their posts than recent, and spent an awful lot of time on here voicing deep religious beliefs and being called a loony for them. Similar to a few doctors and certain women who manage to get on radio and TV debates for the No campaign, purposely avoided the fact they are either Iona, Opus Dia or from some other extreme Christian or Catholic family or little group. No offence meant personally but when people have such strong beliefs I find it a tad disingenuous for them to portray their stance is based on other popular or less fringe reasons.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: What a load of hogwash!
The embryo is attached to HER womb via the umbilical cord
She is just removing that embryo from HER womb
Why would she want to harm her own body ,lad ? That would defeat the purpose of procuring a safe,legal abortion..She is protecting her body from being harmed..try to keep up
@Stephen Mc Elligott: wow! So you’re comparing hitting someone of your own free will to something inhabiting my body against my wishes for nine months? I note not once did you mention the woman involved. Love both eh?
@Stephen Cumbers: Stephen, because there is a law that refuses me access to do whatever I like with my body then by definition they’re controlling my body. This is of course is fine because it makes sense not to use my body to kill another human being. Sadly you’re unwilling to see common sense.
@Stephen Mc Elligott:you cannot be forced to give up any of your organs to save one of your own born children,that is a fact…you want to force a woman to go through with a pregnancy/childbirth with the knowledge that that can have fatal consequences to her life…
ps;lovely to see that you made it onto the “LoveBoth” poster…
@”Pro Life”=Pro Suffering: Every day people make necessary choices that have fatal consequences to their lives. We all have to get into the car every day and travel to work and it’s one of the most risky chances we take but we have to take it.
There’s no risk free activity in this world but Ireland is one of the safest places to have a baby even safer than getting into a car. FACT.
What poster am I on now? I’m only too glad for my face to be a part of this historical campaign as I’d rather be remembered by close friends and family as someone who made an effort to save lives rather than destroy them.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: “Ireland is one of the safest places to have a baby even safer than getting into a car. FACT.” Except in the case of the lady dying from septicaemia in Galway. except for her, and that babies that travel home in suitcase and in trunks of cars, probably them too, or those babies that found themselves buried in a septic tank, maybe them, wonder what kind of logistical and emotional nightmare that is. Who cares tho, doesn’t suit your view on how everyone else should live their lives so scr3w them right? Your Teletubbies view on what pregnancy is or can be in mindb-lowingly naive.
@Stephen Mc Elligott: Let‘s hope none of your nearest and dearest female family members are refused treatment for cancer, because they are a few weeks pregnant. Reality is different from theory.
I’m voting No to send this whole issue back to the politicians and judiciary. Has the AG ever been wrong? Have politicians ever been forced to work through “the impossible” (a la the good friday agreement) and legislate for the common good despite huge obstacles? If forced to do so I believe hard cases such as FFA can be legislated for. Has Micheal Martin ever been wrong in his predictions for Ireland? Repealing the 8th opens an appalling vista when I look at the almost 9,000,000 abortions in UK. A huge number of innocent unborn babies will die here. However if the No vote prevails then Irish society must do more for crisis pregnancies.
@Dermattg: so you don’t mind abortion just how a woman gets pregnant? Says quite a lot about you really. Got to punish those women eh?
As soon as you make something legal, it becomes easier. As soon as you make something easier, more people will do it. You only have to look at the UK and France where a third of women have an abortion at some stage in their life. If we vote repeal, there’s no going back – we will have abortion on demand and an abortion culture. The eighth amendment has saved hundreds of thousands of lives of healthy male and female babies. As a society, we do need better sex education in schools – but please don’t tell me that women need abortion – we need support – not abortion.
Life begins at conception – there may be no windows in the womb but that doesn’t change the fact that an unborn baby has a heartbeat at 18 days, can yawn after 52 days and can smile after 12 weeks. We need more love in this world. Stopping that heartbeat is not love – whether you are Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic or Atheist – anyone can see that. I appreciate that pregnancies may not always occur at a convenient time and can be challenging – but however hard it is, we cannot take it out on the unborn child. There are so many couples out there giving away their kidney to adopt your child. We need to choose life and love over death and hate! #prolife #prowomen #probabies #protecttheeighth #lovebothvoteno
@Niamh: We need more abortions, as many as possible. Abortion is good for the environment. Vote yes ^_^
@Niamh: life begins at conception?
So the morning after pill should be banned?
@Barry Somers: Hi Barry. So no I don’t think the morning after pill should be banned as that is very different. Morning after pill prevents a life. Abortion kills a life.
@Jay Christo: Smith said that since 1973, when the Supreme Court handed down its decision in Roe v. Wade, there’s been “well over” 54 million abortions. The Guttmacher Institute has tracked roughly 49.3 million abortions through 2008.Mar 18, 2012
@Niamh: comparing us to UK has proven to be incorrect. When you compare to most European countries where we have more in common abortion has actually decreased following legislation brought in to support women.
@Gaz Barclay Dunnes: Clearly not enough so. The Earth is still clogged with humans
@Niamh: As an adoptee, I can tell you that adoption is not a panacea. In other EU jurisdictions abortion is decreasing. I believe ireland would not become a free for all, but for the women who are already travelling or taking abortion pills without supervision, let’s make the procedure safe in their own country.
@Toon Army: Hi Toon Army. I would love to believe that – I really would. That is what the ‘Yes’ Campaign want you to believe. When you say ‘comparing us to UK has proven to be incorrect’, do you mean proven to not support the repeal campaign’s argument? There are 5.7 abortions per 1000 women in Ireland aged 19-44. In England and Wales it is 16 abortions per 1000 women. In Sweden it is 20.2 abortions. In Russia it is 32.9 abortions. Please give some examples of European countries which have a lower rate of abortion than Ireland where abortion is legal in circumstances other than when the women’s life is at risk. Do you really believe, hand on heart, that the number of unborn babies being killed each year will stay the same if the eighth amendment is repealed?
@Celine McGowan: Hi Celine. I’m not saying adoption is an easy process but it can’t be worse than taking the life of your innocent and vulnerable unborn child who has done nothing wrong. I don’t know of any EU countries where abortion is legal (in conditions other than when the women’s life is at risk), which have a lower abortion rate than Ireland. Abortion is never safe as it always kills at least one person.
@Niamh:what about the 65% of “innocent unborn children” that never make it to utero <- what do the "pro life" side do about those "innocent pets" ?
By the way,are you saying that a 7 week old embryo is a 'person' :-)
@Niamh: so if No wins will you insist women are jailed for 14 years for having an illegal abortion? Will you campaign to stop women from traveling to procure an abortion? I assume you will because anything else is pure hypocrisy.
@Francis Mc Carthy: Hi Francis. Hope you are well. So yes, a 7 week unborn baby is absolutely a person. :-) An unborn baby has a heartbeat at 18 days, brain waves are detected at 42 days and an unborn baby yawns and hiccups at 52 days. This is all before 7 weeks if my maths is correct. Doctors will often test for a heartbeat before pronouncing someone dead. So how can you say a heartbeat does not prove someone is alive?
I also think it is a frightening world out there if society is going to use a ‘quality of life’ judgement to determine which people don’t deserve to live. Could we and our families one day be redefined out of existence if we have this attitude?
I don’t think it matters where the location of a child is – whether it is in Ireland, Timbuktu, the womb or outside the womb – the child deserves the right to life and certain life is not less valuable over others.
You will have to forgive me – I have no idea what you mean by the stat that 65% of innocent unborn children never make it to utero. Please can you elaborate? :-) Peace and love to you
@Deborah Behan: Hi Deborah. Hope you are well. No woman has EVER been prosecuted for having an abortion in Ireland. The Yes campaign are bringing this up to scare voters. This isn’t about judging women that have already had an abortion – those women need support too. This is about preventing future abortions so that future unborn children in the womb are protected. No I won’t campaign to stop people from travelling abroad to have an abortion – if something is legal in a country there is very little that can be done. I don’t think that is hypocrisy. To me, this debate is about how can we prevent the maximum loss of life – do you think the number of abortions will stay the same if the eighth amendment is repealed? Peace and love to you Deborah. Have a nice evening.
@Niamh:love your new account :) it’s cute :)
“brain waves are detected at 42 days ” <- that is amazing stuff :) what was the EEG reading ? Could you show it to us :-)
Then that 7 week old "person" :-) should be given the EXACT same rights as a born person when it comes to using another 'persons' organs for their ongoing survival..which is by consent only :)
Oh wait,you don't believe that human life begins at conception…k
@Niamh: You say when something becomes legal it will increase. I say when something becomes legal it will be regulated and safe. This is a choice already being made by the women of Ireland. Let’s care for our women at home instead of sticking our heads in the sand.
WRT adoption, it is not up to us to decide that it’s a better choice for someone in a crisis pregnancy situation. They are not there to provide babies to the childless, much as we all would sympathize. This narrative reduces women to mere vessels. Again.
@”Pro Life”=Pro Suffering: http://www.ehd.org/dev_article_unit7.php Hi. Here is the link about brain waves being detected.
Please can you elaborate as to what you are trying to say regarding using organs for survival? I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here. That innocent unborn babies deserve to die?
@Celine McGowan: Hi Celine. Can you just clarify again – so if the eighth amendment is repealed we will not see an increase in abortions?
Regarding the safety aspect, shall we just legalise rape so the government can make it safer and cleaner? Or legalise the underground trade in sex slaves and make it safer?
50% of unborn babies are female. We do not care for our women by taking away their life. The unborn baby has her own unique DNA and abortion takes her right to choose anything in the future. By the way I am talking about pleasant choices like what to wear or where to travel – not whether or not to kill babies.
I would argue it is up to us to save the life of an unborn baby. If a young girl was walking along the street and her mother was about to kill her, I would like to think someone out there would try and rescue her or stop it from happening. I don’t see it being any different in the womb.
From the polls it looks like over 50% of the Irish electorate including myself couldn’t give a flying f*c* what Eamon Martin and the CC are appealing for in this Referendum…. The tide is turning after all these years and hopefully after the 25th the waves of progress will demolish the 8th Amendment and wash it out to sea for once and all.
Under the wildlife acts from the 1st March to 31st August each year it is illegal to cut or burn vegetation due to the bird nesting season.
If the 8th is repealed birds in the trees would have more rights than an unborn child!
Think about that!
If abortion comes legal it becomes easier more people will do it! They dont need a reason.we will end up like the UK and France where there is abortion on demand!
For all the undecided youtube what actually happens in an abortion procedure.its frightening!
Please vote No and send this back to the goverment to legislate properly for the hard cases.
Abortion on demand is not healthcare its not choice its wrong so wrong!
Please Vote NO
@Aidan Crowley: do women factor in at all for you? You know the fully formed human you want to force into parenthood and to raise the child for the rest of her life? Any thoughts on her? No?
@Deborah Behan: ever hear of adoption!
@Aidan Crowley: I have heard of adoption Aidan. As an adoptee, I can tell you that it is certainly not an ideal solution. Maybe abortion is not ideal either & I can understand where ‘No’ voters are coming from. However, abortion is a choice being made daily by Irish women already. Watching videos will not change that fact. Either by travel or pills taken without medical supervision, it is happening whether we like it or not. Let’s make it safe & let Irish women be cared for in Ireland. It may not be a choice you like, but you don’t have the right to choose for other people when to start or add to their families. Nor are women in crisis pregnancies to be used to provide babies to the childless.
@Celine McGowan: We are not “using” women in crisis pregnancies to provide for the childless, we are simply stating that the humanest way to deal with such an issue is to give thec hold a chance at life and put them up for adaption.
As a pro-life person my goal is to reduce abortions as much as possible. While there are 3500 women that travel every year abroad to acquire terminations the fact of the matter is that legalised abortion on demand will increase the abortion rates hear to at least 5000 a year, hence my No vote
@Líam Murray: You say that making abortion legal here will increase demand (conjecture). I say that making abortion legal here will regulate it and increase safety for women (fact). Let’s care for our women, who are making this choice whether we like it or not, here at home.
WRT adoption, I find it bizarre that you use the word ‘humane’ to describe forcing anyone to continue a pregnancy they don’t want. You cannot know the specifics of each woman’s circumstances or what reasons they have to make the extremely difficult decision to terminate a pregnancy. If a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant, telling her she can give the baby away will be scant comfort. This adoption argument is really ill thought-out imo. It really highlights the fact that the 8th amendment reduces women to nothing more than vessels.
@Celine McGowan: It is not really a conjecture that abortion will increase if legalised, if you compare abortion rates in Ireland and practically every single other developed nation they are lower here. Also Ireland’s maternal mortality rate is lower than Britain’s and pretty middle of the road compared to other countries in Europe. So saying legalised abortion will increase safety for women could also be said to be a conjecture.
I used the word “humane” because the situation described above is the one whereby human rights are most respected. I understand that having an unwanted pregnancy is unfortunate and very hard for the woman involved, but what is even worse is if a human life is terminated. A pregnancy us temporary. Difficult, yes, but on the other hand an abortion is final. The adaption argument is completely sound as it provides another option for women with unwanted children rather than terminating their lives. Describing women being used as “vessels” is also misleading, what the Eigth Amendment us supposed to do is protect unborn children.
Five years ago I found the Journal and began to look forward to reading and sharing the articles.
I’ve put many a new reader your way and was delighted with your success.
After years of reading the “officially spun” news it was really so good to have found an unbiased and non-partisan outlet.
But what a joke of a news outlet it has become.
This topic has been the worst example of what I’m talking about.
TheJournal is now blatantly partisan and has been ideologically hijacked ( and we already had enough of those)
It’s as if the journal staff now have regular “spin meetings” to consider how best to spin every item into their ideological narrative – sometimes performing verbal contortion and treating loyal readers as imbeciles in order to make it fit.
So disappointing.
@Nydon: totally agree and one way I think it can be saved is and this isn’t having a go at you but if you wish to join the journal or any other format like it you should have to use your real name and profile because some things that’s said is nothing short of a disgrace and I think after this referendum I’ll be signing of. A lot of people need to have a look at themselves along with the journal.
@Nydon: so stop reading it! You have free will.
@Nydon: I can’t decide who I like the least these days, born again Christians or born again liberals :) BTW could we abort the born again after 12 weeks.
@David Clarke: I think i’ll be doing the same -
Hopefully we will have a big turnout on polling day. If voters take some time out away from the spin and rhetoric and give serious consideration to the question and then vote with their conscience we will have a result that best fits our country.
@Sean Murphy: ” If voters take some time out away from the spin and rhetoric and give serious consideration to the question and then vote with their conscience we will have a result that best fits our country.”
The vote next week is not about choice/no choice but something far more momentous, whether we wish the law to be a protector of life on this island or an entitlement vehicle for interest groups and politicians. It also takes the influence of citizens out of any future discussion and hands it to a small circle of people -
“Laws are made by the Oireachtas. You are not being asked in this referendum to vote on any particular law relating to the termination of pregnancy.”
What the judge does not say is that the law cannot grant such momentous entitlements without changing the role of the law to society itself and no country has ever been able to square this circle nor ever will.
@Gkell1: one good thing regardless of the result will hopefully put an end to your tedious rantings about politicians being untrustworthy.
Set up an anti choice party and put your beliefs to the test of democracy.
@DJ François: this “tedious rantings” is the altruistic approach to life of a child who is protected only by the existing constitution – which some here wants to destroy.
@Gkell1: It is absolutely and fundamentally about choice, it shouldn’t even be focused on one topic there should be several more, euthanasia, drugs, etc. Either you you’re telling people what to do or you’re letting them decide for themselves. one of them is fascist and one isn’t.
@monika: it’s the mother that offers protection. Laws won’t change women getting online pills or travelling, but they will help be compassionate to those that are slowly miscarrying.
@thesaltyurchin: ” It is absolutely and fundamentally about choice”
By its very nature, pregnancy involves two lives so as Monika said, it is a self-absorbed perspective to dehumanise the more vulnerable developing child in the womb. The price of your ‘choice’ is to place no value on those who see a pregnancy for what it actually is in terms of human development, the positive emergence of another life on this island, the humane and decent views of people , social inclusion for everyone and all the positive and spirited side of this nation.
The island of a thousand welcomes goes out the window as any society that does not welcome its future citizens developing in the womb answers itself.
@monika: oh hello anonymous suspended account
@Gkell1: ‘A thousand welcomes’? Lol!… in my experience we haven’t been that naive in a few decades. We are definitely more fuelled by ‘righteous-self’ than we ever have been, and it shows no sign of slowing down, ‘more for me and people like me.’ Everyone else is, well, a fool and deserves what they get right? The price of choice is one that cannot be dictated, weather we like the outcome or not, the people decide, for themselves through generations of living it, you can try and stop and it will seem like ‘Us Vs Them’ provides momentary satisfaction of value and pride and honour and all that nonsense, but it will simply keep coming (and going) like a tide on rising waters.
@Gkell1: lets be real if men got pregnant abortion would have been legal in this country in the 1800s!
@Cathal O’Neill: The term originates from both Dr Boylan and the Citizens Assembly who acknowledged that the majority of abortion in the UK were for social reasons – 97% in fact. Maria Steen clarified this on Pat Kenny when he challenged her on it … He immediately cut for a break.
The issue aside I’m very interested to see the spilt in votes. If the last few years have thought us anything it’s that polls aren’t always accurate and people don’t often voice their opinions if that view is deemed less socially acceptable.
Value of life here?
Capital punishment – banned
Euthanasia – banned
Abortion – banned but exceptions
Murder sentencing – 15 years but can be to life
Personal injury/ death- high damages
We’ve a high value of life here than most other countries , I hope this is not a slide into a lower standard.
Simple morality dictates that unless and until someone can prove the unborn human is not alive, we must give it the benefit of the doubt and assume it is alive, and thus , it should be entitled to life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Ronald Reagan
Why are we still listening to the Catholic church?
Magdalene laundries? Tuam babies? Sexual abuse of minors?
@I wish I was my dog: Yea what did they do again? Trick women into getting rid of their babies, dumping babies in mass graves. Sounds like what the Yes side is pushing. Same evil just a different face.
@Jonathan: Lol!… look up, you see that little spec?
@Jonathan: very very different. Nobody is getting tricked. It’s about choice.
It seems that you are getting tricked into believing their lies.
17% undecided !
@Martin Sinnott: Hasn’t changed since the last poll..
One day journal.ie just one day without referendum story please!!!!!
Look,
Have ye ever done an opinion pole on what people think of opinion poles?
This campaign has gotten a little dirty, a little personal at times, attacking the people instead of their points.
I hope once the votes are counted that women’s wellbeing is improved in some shape or form and I also hope that people actually get out and vote.
Straw polls are too narrow , targeted and their miscalculation and methodology has been legendary , I suggest focus on Your research as the undecided have it all to do
We can keep going over this all we like but I’m sure everyone has made up their mind, if you vote yes so be it same as if you vote no but what ever way it goes I hope both sided have a bit of respect and no Gloating and abusing because we all have to live with each other and not from behind a computer. A lot of abuse and nastiness that has been said on the journal and other outlets by both sides would not be said face to face so maybe just think about that your letting yourself down.
Hopefully people will see sense on May 25th and vote No. How fully legalised abortion on demand has come to be seen as normal is one of the great mysteries of our age
@Líam Murray: Hopefully people will see sense on May 25th and vote Yes. Seeing as the women of Ireland are already choosing abortion either by taking pills without medical supervision or by traveling. Let’s take our heads out of the sand. You may not like it, but abortion is a reality. Let’s care for or own women in their own country.
@Celine McGowan: I understand that abortion us a reality and that Irish women are seeking abortions elsewhere. However, as we have discussed before my aim as a pro-life person is to reduce abortions as much as possible. That is through all means; providing support to women in crisis pregnancies, making contraception readily available, and teaching children about responsible sex. And that includes resisting abortion on demand since completely legalised abortion up to first trimester will cause an increase in abortion rates. Anybody who denies this is kidding themselves. I would hope that in the event of a no vote, the government will actually do some of the things I mentioned above, and in such a case they would have my full support
Use a simple scientific method . If the child in the womb has separate DNA therefore is an individual human being then abortion Is murder
@Joe Eugene Smith: If it’s murder than surely women having one should be facing a life sentence, no?
@Vigo The Carpathian: Out of respect for women who have been indoctrinated by the “Church of Neoliberalism” to believe that they had no choice but to have an abortion – as their lives would effectively be over), I would never use this emotive word to describe an elective abortion.
However, it is without doubt the pre-meditated ending of a human life which, in my opinion and many others can only be justified in the case of self-defense.
If I was asked to vote Yes to allow (or more correctly broaden or clarify) what constitutes self defense in the case of a pregnancy I’d have been first to the polling station to do so.
As it is, the government and the committee have conspired to remove that choice from me so it’ll have to be No this time around.
Pity.
@Joe Eugene Smith: This is still just putting our heads in the sand. Abortion is a choice being made daily by the women of Ireland whether by pills without medical supervision or travel. Whether we like it or not, this is the reality. Let’s care for our women safely at home.
97% of abortions in England and Wales are of perfectly healthy normal babies with perfectly healthy mothers. Vote yes if you want. Thousands will be killed. This will be on your conscience.
@Eric De Red: that is not true.
Every sperm is sacred. Let’s vote on that too.
@I wish I was my dog: That’s very mature.
@I wish I was my dog: Ha ha Does that mean wainking is manslaughter ?
@I wish I was my dog: that’s a strange belief to have. I think a fairer line to draw is a living organism with genetically unique human DNA.
@Patric Cooney: well the potential for human life. How many millions of potential.children are being wasted. We should regulate that too.
@Marie Gunbay: it is. Let’s settle for half manslaughter and if men need treatment cancer let’s export them to the UK.
@I wish I was my dog: very childish comments – we are talking here about the beginning of a human life and the termination of that human life and no matter what side your on their vote their choice and a persons vote and choice deserves respect.
19% still undecided confused by a pro abortion media including RTE who go out of their way not to show the reality of abortion. Videos such as this help to inform public opinion. http://youtu.be/CFZDhM5Gwhk Rte played the same game in 1983 ie no images except very early first trimester ones which helped to promote the clump of cells ignorance. Certainly Rte avoid the wonderful images we now have showing life inside the mothers womb. Keep the viewers in the dark just take their money.
@Rob_Kennedy: I bet you won’t have RTE showing this.
@Rob_Kennedy: Abortion is a reality. No amount of videos will change the fact that it is a choice being made daily by the women of Ireland already. You may not like that choice, but let’s care for our women safely here in ireland instead of sticking our heads in the sand.
I can’t help but feeling that this may potentially be like a Brexit/Trump moment. I hope not though.
I think if the church is going to start pushing political agendas and use their position to influence laws and the Constitution then they need to pay taxes like the rest of us. Once they start acting like a political advocate and tell people how to vote they no longer qualify for amnesty under tax laws.
“and then do everything you can to ensure that our country will always provide the best possible care and support for all mothers and their unborn children”. Is anyone really believing this dribbling lies? pure evil.
The ? is would you rid of the children you have, because thats what you are doing if you agree with aborting healthy unborn children
@Elvis Polkasalad: For me the question of putting anyone through the same pain and suffering as Savita because doctors are legally not allowed to terminate a pregnancy that has gone wrong. Even animals have better standards.
@Chris Kirk: Doctors are allowed to under The Protection of Life during Pregnancy, whereby women are allowed terminations if their lives are endangered, including the risk of suicide – according to the department of health 25 such terminations were carried out in 2016.
Is there a poll just made up unbiased from people who’ve had abortions
The Martin’s double act is an exercise in shameless, barefaced hypocrisy. They claim to be in favour of the best possible care for all mothers and unborn babies, yet the mothers of the babies that their church stole and sold abroad still await redress while these hypocrites remain strangely silent on that subject. Meanwhile the mothers die off and their church saves money!
Anyone who has spent anytime working in or around politics knows polls are no benchmark the only poll that makes any difference is the vote of the people. Polls are a feeble attempt by a liberal media to sway a public they consider stupid and easily led
Vote No.
The Eight Amendment gives equal protection to both the life of the mother and baby.
If you’re not sure if an unborn child/fetus is capable of having feelings then give it the benefit of a doubt.
Some people seem to go out of their way more for vegetarians and vegans than for unborn human beings.
The pro-abortion crowd are full of “compassion”. They should have some compassion for unborn children.
If a fetus is sucking its thumb after 10 or 11 weeks, is it doing so out of intuition or comfort? Note the above comment had a 6/10 chance of being toxic. I removed the work sucking and it was down to .2. I love the luncy of the modern world
Only in Ireland could you win every debate & be behind in the polls Lisbon 2 here we go.
After rape abortion is the biggest abuse of a woman and her body and the intentional killing of a baby.if you vote for abortion you are adding a second trauma to a rape victim that she will come to regret and will never get over. We need better health care for women not abortion. Where fathers rights in all of this debate. Abortion hurts fathers too. We were given the gift of life, nobody should have the right to deny sombody else that gift for personal reasons. I will be voting NO to save innocent LIVES
Yes
Hope the women of Ireland have there say they need what ever help is needed
Socialists – ‘her body, her choice. Bodily autonomy for all!’
Also Socialists – ‘women can’t hold up numbers at boxing matches or Formula 1 races!’
Babykillers choose sex without limits…
Choose life.its about ending human life.its not about the end of choice.lets start a real joined up debate. Preposterous question asked of the electorate. If you don’t trust Leo and co. Vote no
This increasingly secular society is driving the decline of morality and reason and it won’t stop with the referendum. Hard cases make for bad law, in reference to the arguments that support a tiny minority in society.
Bunreacht na hÉireann decides laws that are supposed to protect the majority for common long-term good. Removing the 8th is just another step in the wrong direction and unfortunately it conveys our ambivalent arrogance towards traditional values which we originally based society on. God help us all.
#loveboth #save8th
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