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LAST UPDATE | 9 Jun 2018
THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION of General Practitioners (NAGP) have held an emergency meeting to discuss the outcome of the Eighth Amendment referendum, and passed motions calling for an “opt-in” provision for doctors to provide abortion services.
The NAGP have also called for a conscientious objection provision to be inserted into any legislation passed by government in the wake of the referendum result.
The association announced plans for the meeting last month, after the country voted by 66.4% to 33.6% to remove the amendment from the Constitution, paving the way for the legalisation of abortion in some circumstances.
Dr Maitiu O’Tuathail, the president of the NAGP, said in a statement that the group wishes to be “fully involved as to inform potential legislation and service delivery in a doctor-led service”.
The president also said that the Department of Health had not engaged with ordinary GPs as of yet on the issue. “Any new service delivery that is agreed will be delivered by ordinary Doctors to their Patients and not by academics and politicians,” Dr O’Tuathaill added.
If this is not done properly it risks being yet another scandal in the health service in years to come.
The three motions that were passed also included a request for Health Minister Simon Harris to clarify that he does not intend to make a termination of pregnancy service part of routine general practice.
The NAGP also said that when a GP decides to opt in to provide a termination of pregnancy service, they must be given all the supports necessary such as access to ultrasound and access to counselling services.
It also said that new ethical guidelines will be required for doctors from the Medical Council to cover conscientious objection and onwards referral of patients in this matter.
Commenting on the matter on Twitter earlier today, Harris said that his department was already actively engaging with the Irish College of General Practitioners in drawing up clinical guidelines.
He added: “Once that work is completed we will engage with GP rep bodies/unions. That is the appropriate sequence to enact the will of the people.”
Harris later said that doctors will always be able to opt out and conscientiously object, and that would be respected in the new law “but we repealed the eighth so we would care for women in our own country and that duty of care in terms of referral will definitely apply”.
‘Open and comprehensive debate’
The expected legislation will allow terminations without restriction up to 12 weeks of pregnancy (most likely via abortion pills in the majority of cases) and in very limited circumstance thereafter, such as when the mother’s life is at risk, as outlined here.
The NAGP, which has more than 2,000 members, said it has organised the meeting “to seek a consensus from our members on the issues surrounding the role that GPs might have, in the provision of services, following the recent referendum result”.
The meeting was held in private “to enable an open and comprehensive debate among GPs”.
Speaking ahead of the talks, a spokesperson for the NAGP said the association “respects the decision of the people in the referendum”.
“However, it is important to note that there has been no discussion to date between the NAGP, the Department of Health, or the HSE, on any of the issues arising.”
The NAGP previously said it is concerned that GPs don’t have the infrastructure to provide abortion services, adding that it wants to work with the Department of Health to “devise a respectful, safe and supportive pathway for women in crisis pregnancies”.
“The women of Ireland deserve the best care and society must ensure this happens,” Dr O’Tuathail said last month.
Harris previously said that GPs will be consulted before any legislative decisions are made in this regard.
A spokesperson told us that the Department of Health has “held very productive meetings with the Royal College of Physicians, Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the Irish College of General Practitioners to discuss the service issues that will arise from legislation to regulate termination of pregnancy”.
“It was agreed to continue this engagement over the period ahead.
“It is recognised that, separate to the engagement with doctors’ professional bodies, contractual discussions will also be required in due course in relation to the provision of services by GPs to GMS (General Medical Services) patients,” they added.
Doctors for Choice
Speaking after the referendum, Doctors for Choice said: “It is entirely possible, and preferred, that a doctor-led service can be established in Ireland. The numbers make this clear.
If only 100 of the approximated 2,500 general practitioners in Ireland were willing to provide this service, each GP would deal with 26 requests a year, that’s one every two weeks. If 400 GPs were willing to provide this healthcare service, they would see an average of six to seven per year.
“We recognise that some GP’s are conscientious objectors to providing this service. As in other jurisdictions, the Medical Council will give guidance to these doctors about accommodating their objections when women in crisis pregnancy attend them for care.”
Accessible, local care
Dr Marion Dyer, a member of Doctors for Choice and a GP based in Dublin with over 30 years of experience, told TheJournal.ie that abortion services must be available to women in their locality.
“The most important concern from my point of view would be that abortion care will be accessible, local to women where they are, and that when appropriate it will be delivered by their personal doctor, ideally when appropriate by their GP.”
Dyer noted that GPs are trained to carry out consultations with patients in a “non-directive way”.
In general practice training what we teach young GPs to do, and what older GPs have been trained to do, is to listen to your patient, to try to understand their view of their circumstances and then to give good evidence-based information to the patient about the different outcomes if they take different courses of action.
Dyer said there are “a very tiny number of women for whom an early medical abortion pill will carry extra health risks”, adding that such women will need to be referred on to an obstetrician for specialist care.
She said that making abortions available locally to women will reduce the number of later terminations, noting: “In countries where medical abortion is available to women, more than 90% happen before the end of week nine.”
Dyer said if there is any concern that the patient seeking a termination may be above the proposed 12-week limit, they will be referred to a specialist.
“The vast majority can be looked after in general practice,” she added.
Counselling
The Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA), meanwhile, said concerns raised about the availability of crisis pregnancy counselling in the aftermath of the referendum are “unfounded”.
Maura Leahy, IFPA Director of Counselling, said: “A national crisis pregnancy counselling service is in place and has been for many years.
“It’s funded by the HSE’s Sexual Health and Crisis Pregnancy Programme (SHCPP) and free for the women and girls who use the service. There is no waiting list to see a counsellor; anyone who needs the service will get an appointment within a matter of days.”
The IFPA operates 10 pregnancy counselling centres across the country, providing half of the SHCPP-funded crisis pregnancy counselling in Ireland. Women can make an appointment directly by calling the IFPA helpline (1850 49 50 51) or can get a referral from their GPs.
“This is a specialist service, staffed by qualified and accredited counsellors who are experienced in crisis pregnancy and related issues,” Leahy said.
Most women facing crisis pregnancy find that one counselling appointment is sufficient to enable them to make the best decision for them in their circumstances.
“We provide non-directive counselling and our counsellors support a woman’s own decision in all cases, whether that decision is to continue or to end the pregnancy. These services and supports will continue when abortion care becomes available in Ireland.”
With reporting from Sean Murray
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that would be an ecumenical matter
YES
I guess it depends on what Turin ta?
It’s fake. God doesn’t exist. Except maybe for Ancient Greek gods!
I thought they disproved that years ago.. in that it was dated from the Middle Ages and was the image of some knight?
Looks more like a gorilla to me
Just another way to help gullible people part with their money.
It has already been scientifically proven that it is only around 700 years old, so why continue trying to justify the unjustifiable.
Jesus did exist…if he was the son of God or not is debatable
I love medieval showbiz, it’s got staying power.
Chris..See comments below. Lot of further evidence surfaced after the 1978 tests.
Proven fake.
Jesus Christ. Its pretty fantastic how he looks like an Italian footballer. Had he actually existed, he would have been short, fat and hairy and wouldn’t have a clue what Christianity is. Anyway, he was born, lived and died a Jew. He had nothing to do with Christianity and would never have claimed to be the son of God – that’s down to Eusubius in the 4th century. If you could time travel back to 30 BCE and went around asking for a guy called Jesus, no one would know who you were looking for. There would have been no one called ‘Jesus’, maybe Yeshua, but no Jesuses!
& Valhalla
m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5EjA-JNiVk
It’s been scientifically proven to be fake but then science and religion never got on too well
It hasn’t- quite the opposite in fact.
Woah Kieran. You just got slammed!
There’s a few books out on this subject so I’m always surprised when journalists only report half the story. A couple of amateur researchers uncovered that the shroud was damaged in a monastery fire during medieval times. After a lot of convincing they got the the scientist who originally tested the material to retest another part of the shroud. He confirmed shortly before his death that he had indeed carbon dated the “repaired” part of the shroud first time round. This has now been proven. The materials used in the repair were slightly different and had different pollens embedded into them, some from more ancient times, along with evidence of restitching that was only visible under a microscope.
Before he died he published his new findings on tests from the original part of the shroud and dated it around 0-50Ad. This obviously added to the controversy but it’s odd that the scientists new findings aren’t widely known.
Whether or not you believe the magical bits of the story, the true origin of the shroud is still a mystery.
James Notthewatercharges Hanrahan,
Well done, – in this day and age, there is no excuse for such blatantly incorrect reporting.
@JamesH: Link please?
Charles Freeman writing in history today says the following:
In April 1988 the Shroud underwent a radiocarbon test. The most recent method of dating, accelerator-mass-spectrometry (AMS), was selected as it allowed small samples to be taken. A team of experts met with the Church authorities in Turin to select a suitable sample. It was taken from an area away from the images and the fire damage and inwards from the edge of the cloth. It was divided into three sections on site and then given to three laboratories, in Oxford, Tucson and Zurich, who cleaned each of the samples before testing them. A coordinated result from the three laboratories brought up a date range of between 1260 and 1390, with 95 per cent confidence – See more at: http://www.historytoday.com/charles-freeman/origins-shroud-turin#sthash.8wrlEfaL.dpuf
Also:
Linen yarn is naturally spun clockwise, in the so-called ‘S’ twist, and this always occurs if the spindle is spun from the bottom (with the whorl at the top). This has been the custom in Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean since early times. If, on the other hand, the spindle is spun from the top (as when the whorl is at the bottom), the twist goes the other way, anti-clockwise, in what is known as a ‘Z’ twist. The custom in western Europe was to spin anti-clockwise, thus creating a ‘Z’ twist and this is that of the spun yarn of the Shroud, suggesting it is of western European origin. – See more at: http://www.historytoday.com/charles-freeman/origins-shroud-turin#sthash.8wrlEfaL.dpuf
Hi, though it doesn’t go into minute detail, the article states that the shroud was carbon dated to medieval times but that the true origin of the shroud is not known.
I think the original book I read (years back) was just called The Shroud of Turin. Forget the second book I later read.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Shroud-Turin-Case-Authenticity/dp/0895556804
Here’s an interesting take from National Geographic (2 days ago):
“But when computers crunched through all 387,072 ways to cut the samples, they identified a marked pattern of variations. “The dating which comes from a piece at the top edge [of an uncut sample] is very different from the date which comes from a piece taken from the bottom edge,””
There are plenty of documentaries on Youtube about the retests that cast a large degree of doubt over the initial dating. They even feature one of the original scientists shortly before he died. He admits that it is probably much older and that the section initially tested was indeed a later addition to the shroud. He doesn’t make claims that it belonged to Jesus or that it had a magical origin, but he does what all good scientists do: he revised his theory and conclusion when new evidence came to light.
There’s controversy over the samples used for analysis, with suspicions those used were taken from repairs done after the fire. (Can’t remember the date). As usual with these controversies, the water has been hopelessly muddied by claim and counterclaim and personal smears from both sides.
It has been alleged that the samples were taken from the repaired part deliberately so as to throw confusion over the findings. I personally think it may be a very clever forgery but the jury is still out. Would love to see it.
‘Restitching that’s only visible under a microscope’?!! How did people in AD50 stitch that small?!
Putting the carbon dating to one side for the moment as it is contentious. The weave of the cloth is European, both the twist of the yarn, and the fact that the weave is called ‘herring-bone’ which is associated with the medieval era and not before. The images of the body on the front and back DO NOT match up.
The chances of this ‘relic’ being a forgery or a fake far outweigh the chances of it being real. Please, even if you don’t like what the evidence is telling you, you must try and consider what it is telling you. Just because you want something to be true (i.e. it’s an image of god) doesn’t mean it is true.
Good question Ross! (And well said Mary!)
Im not a defender of the faith Ross. Havent a clue. The restitching would have been done after the fire, in the Medieval times which as the carbon dating (for that section) would suggest, as opposed to back in 50AD. If the contents of the National Geographic are to be believed, short but massive bursts of UV light were needed to make the image. Still impossible today but we’re supposed to believe a forger in 1300′s did it?
My overall point is that there are lots of questions left, as admitted by the scientists who carried out the tests, and it’s actually a really interesting artefact regardless of who it is alleged to be an image of. Journalists are either thick or lazy by having the same article year after year, stating that it was discovered to be a fake back in 1978, yet the science of the story has moved a long way since then.
I also remember another documentary in which the actual image itself was examined, this was extrapolated using 3D computer software and proven that it couldn’t possibly have been a transfer image of a man. Any man.
If a linen cloth had been placed over a mans face, for example, it could not transfer a negative image of his entire face, it may capture the raised parts such as his forehead, nose, chin, cheekbones etc. The only way this image could have been applied to the linen cloth is if it was placed there, they suggested it hadn’t been painted on but rather applied using a technique in which it was “dabbed” on, they also demonstrated how this could be done.
Not even the Vatican believes the shroud is genuine… but they’re more than happy to use it to line their pockets.
HI Tenrec4. Can’t find much in the book here re: weaving(how nice am I digging it out on a Sunday morning for you!)
But it does say this on page 58/59:
“Prof Rae found minute fibers of cotton mixed in with the linen. He also noticed that it was spun in a “Z” twist pattern and woven in a 3-1 twill, meaning that the horizontal (weft) thread passes alternately over three and under one of the vertical (warp) threads. The number of threads in each square cm is approx 24 in the weft and 36 in the wrap. – Test 1978″ So it was likely the rewoven area that was analysed as it was part of the 1978 tests. He was sent a sample of the shroud and that was his analysis.
There seems to be little else on the weaving of the shroud other than the repaired section and that was done in 1978. Everything after that is just about how the old and new sections were woven together it would appear.
Best believe all those books, books are like the internet, never lie! Believe everything!
Especially those books that are translated, edited, retranslated, re-edited and then changed some more. Absolute ‘gospel truth’!
Yip, definitely those books, trust everything they say and “live by the book” don’t ever deter from those books, ever!
Definitely a blue dress
Would this be a class 1 or class 2 relic?
I have a half eaten Jaffa cake that looks like the Flying Spaghetti Monster. “All hail his Noodly Appendage”
I have been touched by his noodly appendage
Rasen Sister!
Ramen
I have a pair of jocks exactly the same
Much prefer The Holy Stone of Clonrichert
Looks like a serial killer, no wait, that was his dad.
Oh no you didn’t!!
And on a Sunday too.
Blasphemy makes baby Jesus cry ya know.
Your going down
Bull, you’re going down to grammatical hell.
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
The article is very poorly researched.
The small piece of shroud which was chopped up and sent to several laboratories for carbon-dating analysis, was later found to be from a medieval repair job, after the shroud had been damaged in a fire.
The main fibres contain pollen indigenous to the Galilee area, But the most convincing evidence is from another relic, – the ‘Sudarium Oviedo’ – which, when superimposed on the face of the shroud, forms an almost perfect match. The Sudarium Oviedo has a solid history from AD 614.
https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm
Charles Freeman writing in history today provides plenty of evidence suggesting the shroud is Medieval in origin. Here is one of the more interesting bits: (see what I did there?)
There is one more fascinating feature of the painting of the Shroud and it concerns the loincloth. A Pilgrim Badge of c.1355 shows the images on the Shroud as naked. Two hundred years later, in a depiction of the Shroud taken from a prayer book of Marguerite de Valois, dated to 1559, the images are still naked. Only 20 years later, when the Shroud was exposed in Turin in 1578 after its transfer to his new capital by Duke Emanuele Filiberto I, the loincloth was on it: an engraving of this exposition by Giovanni Testa shows it clearly. – See more at: http://www.historytoday.com/charles-freeman/origins-shroud-turin#sthash.8wrlEfaL.dpuf
Why is it when there’s a face in a cloth everybody assumes it’s Jesus?? No one ever thinks..hmm, that looks like Gary Glitter or that looks like Fred West!!!
Because we were at one stage all a bunch of gullible gobsheens
The Turin Shroud is, on every level, as real as religion.
But religion is real. It’s f€cking everywhere!
Show some respect, don’t forget its your love ones religion. Its someone faith.someone could be hurt by your drunky comments.
Show some respect? Seriously? If they start showing children, women and LGBT communities some respect then I might just might consider giving their sky fairy some respect.
Turin shroud is the greatest con of all time.
Hi Caillte, why do you automatically tie Christianity in with Roman Catholicism?
The fact is that Christianity gives great respect to women? At the time of Christ, women in society were second class citizens and the bible bestowed the honour upon them to become the prime witness in the disappearance of his body from the tomb. It was a time when a woman’s testimony was worth next to nothing.
And so is religion
Tsar, people are hurt all the time by religious peoples’ comments, and, much more importantly, their actions and / or lack of action. What is there to respect about that?
Gavin, did you seriously, with a straight face, just try to use “showing some women a dead body that wasn’t there” as evidence that the church respects women?
Oh you mean like the respect it had for the thousands of babies they threw in a sewer in all the women and children homes run by the nuns!? Or the respect they had for all the kids that were abused by priests then covered up by the church? Or how about the respect they show for all the gay people they’re campaigning against their human rights?? You know where you can stick your religion!!!
Neal, the resurrection of Christ is the most important single act contained in the pages of the bible, it is also taken as fact by the vast majority of New Testament scholars that the resurrection is an historical fact. With women’s testimony at the heart of the event, at a time when they had little to no rights or voice in society, I’d say yes, with a straight face that this was a remarkable change of direction if the bible was written by a bunch of power hungry men! I mean, if they wanted people to listen to their resurrection story, why would they have put a woman’s testimony in there at all?
Hahahah “the resurrection is an historical fact” hahaha
You see that’s what separates you holy nuts from sanity…the word fact in itself is being misused here, you show me one small piece of evidence that substantiates the “fact” that a human being died and came back to life in a cave over 2000 years ago and I’ll accept you using the word “fact”.
If you try to tell me because it’s written in a book and therefor it’s a fact well you shouldn’t bother. There is NO fact and there is absolutely no way of proving your little fairy tale either. This is hearsay and Chinese whispers for centuries and centuries.
Tinkers, my question again!!! Why do you tie Christianity back to the Roman Catholic Church when the two are actually in all fact nothing alike? Religion and belief are two very different things my friend!
Firstly, you are not my friend.
Secondly, religion and belief are both the same crap. Religion is based on people believing crap that’s fed to them without any evidence and that belief is all they have.
Don’t you start getting into a theology debate with me, I refuse to get into an argument with the brainwashed because it has never in the history of the world ended well…
Logic and religion are so far apart it’s nothing but frustrating to try and dismiss it with the brain washed.
No Tinkers, we all believe in something but not all of us follow religion. Even you believe in something, you have some explanation rattling around inside somewhere. Belief in a cosmic explosion from nothing is a belief I hate to tell you, if that’s what you believe! So don’t fool yourself, we have more in common than you think.
I’m sorry to hear you’re closed off from any debate/discussion.
No, you see, I don’t believe in the Big Bang, I respect the theory and all the work that went into coming up with the theory but I think you’ll find even the scientists that came up with the theory will never say they believe it, they all know it’s a theory and so far it’s the best explanation until proven otherwise.
I do not believe anything that’s not proven or factual. No way will you find me believing in a story someone told me about a flying pig until I see the pig flying for myself…we are NOT alike.
So let me get this straight, you don’t believe in anything except only that what is proven and factual? So then you do have beliefs? What about logic, logic can’t exist without a mind and the existence of the mind has never been proven, it is not a physical entity neither is logic or morality for that matter yet you believe in all three of those I imagine? You probably find yourself back tracking a bit now so mind you don’t trip over the fact that all of these three things cannot exist without there being a god in the first place. For that matter, I suggest you read a book called ‘stealing from God’ by Frank Turek, where he outlines the fact that philosophically atheists don’t have a leg to stand on without there being a god in the first place.
Oh ffs..this is why I don’t like talking to religious nuts. You’re arrogance and smugness as if you’re actually after proving that you’re right pisses me off. You come up with such bullsh.it it’s actually infuriating. There is no God, there is not stupid fairy tale where everyone goes to heaven if they down their life worshiping and believing and chanting to god instead of living life.
You’re a moron if you think you can actually convince anyone with half a brain that any of that bull exists. Damn it anyway, I broke my own rule about not getting into a conversation about theology with a nutter. I’m unsubscribing from this story so I won’t be getting your replies.
Good stuff Gavin, the other thing that can be noticed about athiestism and secularism is both need a belief system for them to function, probably one of the most notable properties of athiestism, secularism is that they live a double life, firstly life and creation came about by chance as does their own intelligence, and that we are just organic robots, that all we do is respond to our senses, which is processed by the brain and that when we act on those messages from the brain thats as meaningless as someones belief in religion.
Yet when it comes to any topic they object to the notion of any organic robot vanishes.
They go home love their families interact with people, enjoy tv. Even acknowledge there ability to be self aware.
But sadly that to them is meaningless.
You’ve hit the nail on the head David! If atheism is true then we’re simply molecular machines that have no free will, we have no ability to reason or should I say, we can’t justify our reasons, we simply react and we shouldn’t trust any of our thoughts including the thought that atheism is true!
Yes Gavin spot on, and when you look at both belief systems, athiestism and secularism, they are a derivative of the Christianity belief, but it’s based on a material existance and that we create our own morality, so their morality can change anytime.
Again they reject their own existance and all thats good about it.
Why even be good?
Well if it’s real then it’s safe to say that the head hackers got their 70 virgins.
Can you not just take Sunday off Glen?
Looks like I have upset gonzo and the rest of the God fearing folk.
So it’s ok to believe that Jesus walked on water, turned water to wine and the rest of it but terrorists don’t get theirs.
It’s all BS hocus pocus
Religion is the cause of most of the trouble in the world, wake up!
Carbon dating has proved it as a fake.
Of course it’s fake.
The RC church is a money making racket. The journal is mirroring conspiracy sites by putting out articles of this nature.
Glen what purpose do you have other than been a loner slagging others
Try mixing with humans
Well, it should have at least put down the fact that it has been scientifically tested and proven that it is not real as opposed to asking the question is it ?
Howzatme
Gives out that I’m slagging people while slagging me!
Are you saying that religion is NOT more trouble than it’s worth, cause I’m saying it is and people should wake up to that fact.
Glen I’m saying you need a life son your on the edge of weirdo you enjoy mocking vulnerable people
There is something wrong with you I’m not slagging I’m just being really really honest
You don’t see the irony in your comments at all do you.
If I’m a weirdo for having an opinion on a forum well then I’m a weirdo.
Better than being a hypocrite in my book.
I may not agree with most of what Glen posts, but I’ll wholeheartedly join him in mocking the archaic structures of organized religion.
Howzat, explain to me, how religious nutters are vulnerable people? When did those nutters ever show respect to any views different from their’s? What about all the women and men burned for ‘witchcraft’ by the oh so holy RC? What about what’s going on in the middle east in the name of Islam? I do respect people’s right to have a religion, but if said religion is then used as an excuse for murder, torture and exploitation, sorry mate, then the respect is forfeit.
Wasn’t there a toasted egg sandwich on PayPal a while back with the image of Jesus?
It’s not an opinion it’s sad pathetic mockery you fool
Jesus didn’t have long hair. This looks like something from DaVinci
There’s a theory that Leonardo is actually responsible for the image on the shroud.
Now look what ye have done lads. I don’t believe the picture on the skirting board isn’t Bishop Len Brennan anymore.what do I believe in now.
A bunch of mockers here really! Seriously low level behaviour. Christ was mocked at his crucifixion and is still being mocked today, nothing new there, no originality. If any of you even watched the latest documentary on this remarkable relic, you would see the extreme scrutiny by scientific methods the shroud has been put under. The piece of shroud last tested actually came from a repaired part of the shroud which came about after a fire damaged it. This is an amazing piece of historical evidence which has the strength to validate the death and resurrection of Jesus. I guess a little respect is too much to ask sometimes. I suppose thats why the bible wrote, never cast your pearls before swine, lest they be trodden under foot.
It is not any Jesus character that is being mocked, bit only the religious nuts that have organised an event around a piece of cloth. It does not matter if it is from 50ad, 1300ad or 1 million years BC – it is still a just piece of cloth with some stains on it. I may be behind on my catechism, but visiting this, touching it, licking it or rolling around in it won’t get you a fast pass to Valhalla, but will make some more money for a super wealthy private company called “the church”. I’d avoid it like the plague (which incidentally the chap in the cloth picture may have died from).
In what situation ever, would anyone want to cast pearls before swine??? This is really a metaphor for the relevance of the bible to people’s lives. None.
Exactly to point George!
Oh come on Alien8, do you think people give a crap here about Jesus? Mention any belief in God and your a “religious nut”! I don’t mind the mocking itself, it’s merely a symptom of an underlying issue called ignorance. Most people can’t think or believe for themselves and so they have to act under mob mentality, it’s primal and it’s bourn out of insecurity.
Why do Christians wear a cross when history shows us crosses were not used, it was more of a X shaped device or even just a straight pole…..either way, worshipping a primitive torture device is deeply disturbing.
@Dermot
Imagine Jesus would have been drowned, they’d all be worshipping aquariums
That’s not his real face unless Jesus was very young when he did it. He had tonnes of plastic surgery.
33 is still young!
They anointed him with oil of olay
In those times 33 was not as young as it is now. Life expectancies were a lot shorter
They more likely anointed him with a cannabis extract called kaneh-bosem, It’s believed JC used cannabis as a healing medicine in his holy oil – news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2633187.stm
You keep telling yourself that, Sandra!
@Cannabis
Are you saying good ol’ Jesus rolled himself a joint after his resurrection? Well, makes as much sense as the whole going-zombie-after-three-days-thing.
@ Shannon
Life expectancy may have been low but that takes into consideration of death during child birth. Effective if you got past 10 you could live as long as people do now. Common misconception about how long people lived by misunderstanding what life expectancy means.
Show us some pictures of a virgin following immaculate conception.
What a load of crap .. Does anyone really care these days
I’m not buying it !
It’s not for sale. And if it was the pope has first option to buy it.
I think all the Sceptics are here today. Nice day for it
Con job.
It looks like a picture of two people getting married.
Something like that is great for the old Tourism. Printing money with that piece of cloth.
All I can see is the owl from the late late show
Nice little money spinner for them. If every visitor leaves only €1 in the “poor box” there’s a tax free million for them. And that’s only the first million that booked to see it.
Don’t forget Walter McCrone’s microscopic analysis of the pigments and fibres also proving it was painted and medieval.
Will take two or three comments to reply Larry as it’s a copy and paste from a book. But it seems even the team who declared the Shroud a forgery back in 1980 disagreed with McCrone’s findings.
“Although Dr.McCrone was not part of the [original] STURP team that examined the Shroud in Italy, Ray Rogers, the chemist from Los Alamos, provided McCrone with thirty-two sticky tape samples that he had taken from the surface of the Shroud during its examination in 1978.
McCrone began to study the tape samples on Christmas Day 1978. He discovered a small quantity (not more than 10 milligrams) of iron oxide. The mixture was a
combination of red and yellow pigment particles. Since this was found only on the blood areas of the Shroud, McCrone concluded that it was red pigment used by an artist. He postulated that the discoloration of the fibers could have been caused by the aging of that paint medium. He then demonstrated how the paint could have been applied to the cloth without leaving any traces of brush strokes. Dipping his finger in powdered jeweler’s rouge, he applied it to a piece of paper until there was little left on his finger; then he transferred that to a piece of linen.
The STURP team did not accept McCrone’s conclusions, because he did not take their findings into consideration, for example, that iron oxide is basica1ly rust, which can be found in many forms of dust. Dr. Jackson made note that it was not surprising to find iron oxide in the blood areas of the Shroud because iron is a component of blood. Furthermore, the particles could have spread to other areas of the Shroud by the repeated folding and unfolding of the cloth throughout the centuries.
Another test conducted by McCrone was the amido black test. This is a reagent that stains protein-based media. While the amido black test proved positive for the blood-mark areas, it was inconclusive in demonstrating that a protein medium, such as tempera, was
used for the body image. Other scientists caution that the amido black test is unreliable because it can also stain cellulose, thereby giving a false reading.
In 198 l, STURP held a meeting at Connecticut College in New London. McCrone, who had resigned from STURP in 1980, was invited to attend, but declined to participate. He later remarked: “I believe the shroud is fake, but I cannot prove it.” During the presentation,
Dr. Adler was asked to comment on McCrone’s claim that there was no blood on the Shroud. Adler referred to a chart of the blood tests that he and Dr. Heller had performed and remarked: “That means that the red stuff on the Shroud is emphatically, and without any reservation nothing else but B-L-0-0-D”
McCrone’s theory was dismissed by the use of X-ray fluorescence and visible light examination of the Shroud as well as micro chemical tests. These studies showed that there was not a sufficient amount of iron oxide on the cloth to account for the least enhancement of the image. The STURP team concluded that the iron oxide evidence was “irrelevant to image formation process.”
Sure didn’t Jesus show up on a slice of toast a few years ago. I remember it well.
How can it be the face of someone that never existed
It’s as Fake as everything else in the Catholic Church……
If I remember correctly the science world said it was a fake because it wasn’t old enough or something along those lines but here’s something to ponder…..no one has found Jesus’s bones so they are basically only going on what they read about the age he was supposed to be around ie the bible and let’s face it since when did paper refuse ink therefore the 4 boyo’s who wrote it could have made up when and where Jesus actually lived. ..then again maybe not.
Cool story bro
I am off to update Wikipedia now John with your info.
John, there was a lot more than four gospels written, the church decided which ones were ‘acceptable’. The earliest we have is Mark, supposed to be written around 60 AD
Who are the two other guys on the right and left?
Cult
Of course it’s fake! there’s never been actual proof that this man existed and I doubt it’s going to be proved now
Enoch Burke can use it to cover up the mural on Georges Street.
Sure one of the priests being interviewed said “yes it has been proven fake but it still gives people the essence of Christ to feel like their near him” it cut straight to a pilgrim saying I still believe it’s true after being told blatantly to her face it’s bein proven to be fake but she obviously loves giving money to an organization that asks for donations to help the poor and then have it headquarters decked out it marble, gold & priceless artifacts but sure hey each to their own…
Lets not allow the possible truth to get in the way of a good story that has been passed down the centuries, what harm is it ?
It’s just a stain. A bit of Vanish is your only man.
“There appears to be a very crude water colour painting, of a man in a bishops hat”
have your say