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Here's how many complaints city councils got about referendum posters

Galway City Council got nine, while Dublin City Council got almost 300 over the same time period.

IN THE AFTERMATH of the Eighth Amendment referendum, there was a lot of discussion about the regulation of referendum posters.

Politicians and campaigners decried the placement of posters and the content of them as misleading or graphic, particularly in the case of No posters.

In order to get a sense of what the general public thought of posters, we asked city councils in Ireland to give us the number of complaints sent to them about referendum posters.

TheJournal.ie previously took a look at the nature of some of the complaints Dublin City Council received up until the 25 April (there’s a time delay as this was a Freedom of Information request).

The vast majority of complaints were about the placement of posters, the absence of the name and address of a printer on the poster (which is required by law), and complaints about graphic imagery and misleading information (on No posters in particular).

Up to and including polling day on the 25 May, Dublin City Council received 279 complaints regarding referendum posters.

In the first batch of complaints, requested in an FOI by TheJournal.ie up until 25 April, there were 144 complaints (you can read some of the complaints in our story here).

In the final month before the referendum there were a further 135 complaints.

Of this number, 86 complaints referred to the alleged absence of publishers or printers details on the posters, 11 related to the content directly, 17 related to the posters being a hazard to pedestrians or motorists, and 21 related to other issues such as proximity to schools or polling station locations.

In total, there were 46 complaints received by Cork City Council in respect of referendum posters. The local council didn’t specify what the nature of these complaints were.

A total of nine complaints were received by Limerick City & County Council about posters in the course of the referendum.

The majority of the complaints were about the alleged graphic nature of some of the posters and their location (including how close they were to schools).

No fines have been issued in relation to the referendum posters under the Litter Act.

Galway City Council checked the planning, transportation and infrastructure, and environment sections for complaints, it said.

The only section that received complaints was in environment, which received 10 complaints.

Waterford City Council was contacted in relation to how many complaints it received; TheJournal.ie did not receive a reply at the time of publication.

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A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article. Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:38 AM

    Once we have the Catholic Church out of our state structures, then it really doesn’t matter what the church thinks or does, because people will be at liberty to choose to follow its teachings, or not.

    The problem is when you have many of our publicly-funded services – such as schools and hospitals, youth services, community centres, owned and run by the church (even though they are funded by our taxes), then the teachings and moral views of the church will be foisted onto all of us…

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:29 AM

    Bit of a simplistic view there Miss Filed. I’d totally agree that there should be a complete separation of church and state but you seem to be suggesting that would mean an end to this and other issues.

    If someone is gay and a believer, the separation of church and state would do nothing (or very very little) to comfort them when the head of the church has labelled them “disordered”

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    Mute martin ryan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:09 AM

    I have to laugh at the gays coming on here bashing the Catholic Church yet most clergy are gay.

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    Mute David Vaughan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:13 AM

    The day that being Homosexual is irrelevant is a day I’ll look forward to personally. We’re not there yet.

    And what are the ‘warped views’ that you’re on about? She is only pointing out the truth, which it seems some folks have to still cop on to.

    Being gay isn’t a ‘phenomenon’ – it didn’t just happen in the last 20 years. Its just us Homosexuals are less willing to put up with being second class citizens, when we pay the same taxes, suffer the same downturns, and live in the same country. And thankfully, other people are agreeing with us.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:22 AM

    If you don’t like it, don’t go to Mass. Simples.

    She is not qualified to point out the “truth”. She is warped by her own personal circumstances.

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:26 AM

    So Oscar do please tell us who is qualified to point out this “truth”.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:29 AM

    David Vaughan seems to think Mary McAleese speaks the “truth”.

    Of course Mary McAleese knows better than all the scholarship of the Vatican combined.

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    Mute David Vaughan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:34 AM

    Oscar, I don’t go to mass. In fact, these days I’m Atheist.
    I was catholic, but because of the attitude that the Church is always right, and I had to be ‘wrong’ I shifted. It caused a hell of a lot of grief in my life for a few years, as my parents didn’t know which was right, me or the Church. The Church has no idea really the damage its attitude and opinions has caused over time – Pope Francis is giving me hope, but he is but one man.

    Warped by personal circumstances? Is it wrong for a parent/family member to adapt to the circumstance that a son/brother is Gay? The son/brother hasn’t changed, should they be cast out, as you seem to be implying?

    And as for her not being qualified, produce your Qualification in Canon Law, Mr Faceless Oscar, and prove your own Qualifications? (Bigotry and warped views are not a qualification I regret to point out!)

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:38 AM

    David is right, Mary does speak the truth. Mary is a very well educated lady with a Law Degree and a Licentiate in Canon Law under her belt, not to mention her various proferssorships and barrister work, her leadership role as Uactharann and her role in the peace process. So yes she is very qualified to research and “pontificate” on the truth.

    The truth that the Magesterium does not want to hear or acknowledge.

    The Magesterium is about a millenia behind modern society and modern scholarship. Sure they couldnt even administer the questionnaire Pope Francis wanted all catholics to complete properly! Hopefully Pope Francis will drag them into the 21st century a bit. He’d be mindful to actually listen to Mary.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:41 AM

    Ah bless, a New Atheist of one-time catholic persuasion opining on the internet.

    Best of luck with everything.

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:44 AM

    Ah bless a die hard catholic that can’t see past the end of his own nose opining on the internet about things he doesn’t understand, nor actually wants to because he is a good little boy that does what the Magesterium says!

    Hope ya haven’t looked at an unveiled woman, eaten any shellfish or worn polyester lately cause you are gonna burn in hell!

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    Mute David Vaughan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:58 AM

    Nice to know the attitude of certain Catholics hasn’t changed. So much for forgiveness!

    I’ve had the displeasure of encountering faceless types like you before Oscar. Your type were always sniffing with disapproval in the background. Your type were always right, and always happy to condemn me to something called Hell. I’ll not even bother mentioning the grief your kind caused my Parents with your background damnation. Being told that I wasn’t a suitable godfather for my nephew was a rather kind touch as well.

    My opinion counts as much as your’s, I believe. But since I’m gay, and you (I’ll assume) are not, you probably don’t feel the same.

    Bad news is these days, I’m allowed my opinions on the Internet.

    But thanks for the Best Wishes – I’ll take it at face value :)

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    Mute martin ryan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:01 PM

    The gay magisterium teaching how bad it is to be gay,you couldn’t make it up not a bit confusing at all.

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    Mute Sean Collins
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:31 PM

    Mary never said anything like this when she was president says a lot for her courage, is she drawing a tax payers pension.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:34 PM

    It isn’t really Martin.. As the article says – those who are gay and don’t wish to be found out as such will be the loudest opposers to homosexuality. It’s a well known phenomenon, have you ever heard the phrase “I think the lady doth protest too much”?? Same principle..

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    Mute David Vaughan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:36 PM

    I’d assume she is drawing a pension. There’s far worse than her drawing a pension – Mr. Cowen for one.

    But when she was President, she would have been speaking officially. Which means the government filters what she can say. This means that she probably could not say what she wanted to.

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:07 PM

    Couldn’t agree more. Why should we all pay the same tax to have Catholic doctrine foisted on to us? If people want Rome Rule, they can head off to Rome!

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:09 PM

    There is no evidence to suggest that most clergy are gay as far as I know. Would you care to enlighten us?

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 6:46 PM

    Did you forget the justice system? with the judges etc attending the RC Red mass in Dublin every year?

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    Mute martin ryan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:29 PM

    Read fr pat buckleys account on homosexuality within the church,and Monsignor ledwith at maynooth and the pink corridor, up to sixty percent of priests are homosexual,and then we wonder why the Catholic Church is in mess !!

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    Mute James
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:00 PM

    Martin I have nothing against gays, but to say “the gay magisterium” is to put labels on a lot of men whom I’m sure are not all gay, a straight man is as much likely if not more to be in this so called “magisterium” than a gay man is !!

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    Mute martin ryan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:28 PM

    James, ok maybe I was a little OTT with that statement but what really gets to me is this, homosexuals would have us believe that they are somehow superior in everyway, their are as many if not more gays in the church so it stands to reason they are just as responsible for the mess the church finds itself in yet,blame the church for demonising them, homosexuals in the church either need to “come out” or “get out” they can’t have both ways.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:49 PM

    Martin – there are some men who are very ill at ease with the fact that they are gay, probably because they’ve been told it’s a sin their whole lives – they are brainwashed to believe that there is something terribly wrong with them and that the only way to ensure they don’t go to hell is to devote their lives to the church or Jesus or whatever to try and “pray the gay away”.

    You can’t pray the gay away, if you’re gay, you’re gay. Same was as if you’re straight you’re straight. And there is nothing you can do about it. So the fact that they’re supposed to remain celibate suits them just fine, after all – the sin is to lie with another man, not to fancy the pants off him..

    It would actually make a lot of sense for there to be a certain amount of homosexual priests, sadly forming their part of a loop of self hate rather than acceptance.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:50 PM

    Same way, same was makes no sense!!

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    Mute martin ryan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:07 PM

    Shanti,their is also the distinct possibility that homosexuals become priests knowing that the church has a high population of gays within and feel that they will be more accepted within the church.

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    Mute Rita Teehan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:25 PM

    You Ass hole, the Church founded the school, hospitals etc.

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    Mute Michelle Dunne
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:34 PM

    Well said David, Oscar Doolittle research as possible..

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    Mute Michelle Dunne
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:35 PM

    Where’s the love Oscar. Tut tut

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:38 PM

    Mary McAleese is still an idiot. Doesn’t she have the brains to understand that her stupid religion isn’t just moronic about gay rights, it’s moronic about absolutely everything.

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    Mute Ken Huggard
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    Jan 9th 2014, 9:08 AM

    And where did the money come from?

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:50 PM

    The Catholic Church is in a mess because many of it’s priests are gay? Elaborate

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:52 PM

    There are about 551 ones wrong with such a statement. Where to start?

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    Mute martin ryan
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    Jan 9th 2014, 2:00 PM

    Are you saying many of the priests are not gay or would not hold power and influence ??

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 3:09 PM

    I don’t comment on the Irish Catholic website so why are u on here?

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    Mute Ken Huggard
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    Jan 11th 2014, 5:49 AM

    This was an error . In the wrong place. Was meant as a reply to another comment.

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    Mute Gráinne Duggan
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    Jan 11th 2014, 9:22 PM

    Guapito,, when is Catholic doctrine (by which I presume you mean Roman Catholic doctrine) foisted on us?

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:43 AM

    wasnt there an article here last week about homophobic bullying and that Catholic schools wouldnt go on record to say they were tackling it. Any of us could have a gay child now or in the future yet look at the “care” they might be receiving if you sent your kids to one of their schools.

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    Mute rodrigo detriano
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:54 AM

    The Ku Klux Klan were less evil than this gang of depraved creatures who masquerade as a form of Christianity.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:13 AM

    Actuallt, the KKK were a very Christian centric organisation (though Protestant and anti-Catholic), – crosses and bibles were intirinsic to their ritual masses.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:26 AM

    Also, its interesting to note, – the KKK (like the Mormons) heavily used scripture to justify Racism – much in the same way as the Church refers to scripture to justify homophobia.

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    Mute John O'Mahony
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:47 AM

    “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
    An evil soul producing holy witness
    Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
    A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
    O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”

    ― William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:55 PM

    Apparently all schools have to do it if they receive funding from the state. Will the govt. threaten to cut funding if they don’t comply?

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    Mute Brian O'Neill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:00 AM

    Mary is probably the most powerful lay catholic in Ireland, from her Wikipedia page:

    McAleese was a member of the Catholic Church Episcopal Delegation to the New Ireland Forum in 1984, and a member of the Catholic Church delegation to the Northern Ireland Commission on Contentious Parades in 1996.

    She is currently pursuing a Licentiate of Canon Law (JCL)[74] at Rome’s Pontifical Gregorian University.[75]

    She is an expert on church law and extremely influential.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:26 AM

    Not any more she’s not. She’s a rabble-rousing soul deceiver.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:17 PM

    Oscar she is vastly more qualified than pretty much anybody in this country to comment on these issues.

    Do you know something she does not?

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    Mute Sean Collins
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:33 PM

    Using irish tax payers money Brian

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:36 PM

    And what if she is Sean? She has more than earned her presidential pension.

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:00 PM

    Oscar’s hilarious “She’s a rabble-rousing soul deceiver” sounds like it should appear in Cliff Richard’s “Devil Woman.”

    And with regard to Sean harping on about her pension, *this* tax payer is very pleased to see her actually doing something meaningful.

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    Mute Mick Tully
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:10 PM

    Sorry I pressed the wrong button it should have been like105

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Jan 9th 2014, 9:34 AM

    Chris, ” doing something meaningful”? What useful about studying Harry Potter?

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:20 PM

    William: “meaningful” as in “taking a stand in public on an important issue.” Particularly, as she could just as easily sit at home, eating bonbons and posting thejournal.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:26 PM

    Studying canon law is 100% pointless, as is studying any other religion’s theology. It’s no different than studying Harry Potter for moral rules. She would be far better off posting here and telling us why she believes in nonsensical fairy stories, that have all been dismissed as superstition, and even eating low sugar bonbons. The Catholic Church is in sharp decline in all “educated” countries.

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    Mute Gráinne Duggan
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    Jan 11th 2014, 9:37 PM

    In fairness, Darth, you don’t need qualifications in theology or canon law to know that the church’s attitude to homosexuality is wrong.

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    Mute Tom Shanahan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:58 AM

    I think it is high time that the Catholic church accepts homosexuality as being natural, therefore certainly not sinful. It is time to allow women into the priesthood ( if they would join) . It is also time to allow priests to marry… men or women. Then the people would certainly begin to turn back to the Catholic church after a very dark disgraceful period.

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:06 AM

    All Christian cults have the same problem, if they have to keep admitting that parts of their received word from their deity is bogus the gig is up , just enjoy the bind they are in but do everything yo reduce their role in health and education so nobody is forced to use their services (which we pay for)

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    Mute Ed Appleby
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:11 AM

    “The church does “accept homosexuality”. They also accept rapists, murderers, paedophiles, thieves and a whole litany of others. The church is a refuge for sinners.

    Yes we know Oscar and that’s just it’s bishops, priests and nuns!

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:27 AM

    Do please tell us Oscar who exactly said it was “sinful”.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:32 AM

    I suggest you google Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

    As well as all the biblical references to homosexuality (including the New Testament), there has been a precedent set for a very long time now (much longer than you can expect to live).

    Pick up a book ffs. This is well trod ground. The matter of homosexuality in the church is well and truly closed.

    Bye now.

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:42 AM

    In other words you do not want to actually say that Christ said zero about homosexuality! A big fat zero!
    You know, the guy Christianity is all about?!

    I know exactly who said what in the New Testament, and I know the circumstances with which they said it and in what context for two millennia ago.

    I know more about “sacred” scripture than you do, you clearly actually cannot say who said what in the new testament, and canon law has about as much relevance to society as the man in the moon.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:12 PM

    Betcha Oscar hasn’t evem read the bible

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:43 PM

    Oscar, your scripture is the result of a twisting if the Ancient Sumerian story of creation mixed with Astrotheology and Mushroom worship.
    Why should we take any of it seriously? It’s been debunked, get over it.

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:03 PM

    @Oscar, would you care to cite a specific instance in which Jesus is *quoted* as saying that homosexuality is sinful? If Jesus CHRIST is the one on whom CHRISTianity is based, surely *His* words are the ones to follow. And likening homosexuality to rape, murder, paedophilia and theft is breathtakingly unChristian. Hang your head in shame.

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 3:26 PM

    I agree however has there ever been a ‘bright graceful’ period within the Church or are Catholics just more aware/less accepting of the wrongs perpetrated by their Church today?

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    Mute Gráinne Duggan
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    Jan 11th 2014, 9:28 PM

    Oscar, the Old Testament references are no more relevant to us today than the references to killing children who disrespect their parents, or the ban on wearing clothing of mixed fabrics. As for New Testament, the only references are to pagan prostitution rituals in the temples of Corinth.
    As for precedents…well, precedents are made to be broken.

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    Mute Briny Boy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:19 AM

    Wonder what the Iona Institute think of Mary’s comments. I’d say David Quinn has already launched an investigation.

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    Mute David Murphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:43 AM

    And Child Sexual abuse.

    And Gender equality.

    And how babies are made.

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:46 AM

    not to mention Science and basic logic.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:07 AM

    Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.

    Science informs our reason. Scientific understanding is not an end in itself — the human brain is incapable of understanding every minute secret of the universe. Science is a way of utilising the fruits of the universe for the betterment of humanity. Oh and you get to see beauty of God’s creation along the way.

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:16 AM

    @Oscar , basic logic would suggest that the deity that created the universe would not have focused his attention for a thousand years or so on a patch of desert 100 X 100 sq miles. Occum’s razor suggests it was just a local religion that went viral, nothing more, nothing less. If you suspend disbelief you can buy into the hole Judeo Christian thing but only if.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:25 AM

    The result being that life is but a cosmic dance — the objective being to get as much pleasure into you as possible before you reach your nihilistic end. It’s no wonder homosexuality is so popular these days.

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    Mute Dungeon Master
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:31 AM

    Science flew man to the moon, religion flew him into buildings

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:33 AM

    @Oscar, I could care less if there is a God or no God, the point is the one that originated in a desert 3 thousand years ago is no more real than some religion found in the Amazon jungle. So dont wrap up Christianity with the whole is there isnt there a god, they are mutually exclusive topics

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:35 AM

    God created man. Men of free will are capable of utilising science for great good as well as great evil.

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    Mute Dungeon Master
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:37 AM

    If we have free will, how come he keeps punishing us for making ‘the wrong’ decision, not very free is it?

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:45 AM

    @Oscar, its a possibility (low odds Ill grant you) , still doesnt tell me anything about why I should take a blind bit of notice about Judaism or Christianity. maybe the North American indians or one of the Asian religions have it sussed?

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:11 PM

    Oscar which god are you talking about?

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:40 PM

    But this god also created all the nasty horrid things in this world, like that parasite that must live in an eyeball and causes blindness.. That fungus that takes over an ants brain turning it into a zombie to March it up a tree and then grow out of its head in order to disperse it’s spores from a vantage point. Some “loving” god..

    Not to mention the billion or so stars in our GALAXY, one galaxy on millions, each star likely to have a planet just like this one orbiting it.. And we were gods only creation? Sorry. Rational thought cannot reconcile those ideas..

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    Mute Mary Kavanagh
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:06 PM

    Nice epigram there, Dungeon Master. 10 out of 10!

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    Mute Dave Harris
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:25 PM

    Did not

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    Mute Seán Gallagher
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:23 PM

    Yes Dungeon Master, however… God created science…

    Also, science kinda helped with the flying into buildings bit too

    Have you never heard of the God particle?

    /joke

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    Mute Ruth Maxwell
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    Jan 9th 2014, 8:11 AM

    Yup such a popular “choice” to be gay…think ill try it today, for a change! *facepalm*

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:34 AM

    I have no doubt that eventually (perhaps decades into the future) the Church will come around and become more tolerant of homosexuality. Society tends to progress and the Church lags, but eventually their position is so untenable that they revise their position. We have seen this in the past with Slavery and Racism and acceptance of Scientific progress (eg. Gravity, Evolution, Solar System…). Society moves on, the Church resists, eventually realizes it can’t win and then the Church eventually has to “revise its position”.

    The Church is slowly softening its position on homosexuality. So, we can see there is no “Objective Morality” prescribed by God ( via the Church), but rather that morality is emergent from societal norms.

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:49 AM

    to be fair some of those issues they changed their view on could be seen as cultural or internal church issues. Homosexuality on the other hand steers into this is what “god” said, so cant see it unless they will say that god was having a bad millennium or 3

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:59 AM

    What God actually “said” in the bible isn’t actually that important in terms of how it feeds into Church

    God has “said” and done some truly horrific things which would be completely and utterly untenable for basing any Church policy on. For example – God “said” to the Jews that he would kill (ie. murder) all male babies in Egypt and hence deliver them from the Egyptians (the basis of thee Passover celebrations, slso celebrated by Jesus during the last supper). However, I think you would find that the Church would be inclined to say that Infanticide is not justifiable in any circumstance, even though that is inconsistent with the Bible, – which evidentally says that Infanticide is justifiable in certain circumstances.

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    Mute Fae Jitt
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:00 AM

    I agree with your comment Alan R
    One can only surmise from this state of denial the church exists in that the people involved in the church are ignorant fools.

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    Mute Richard Chambers
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:04 AM

    A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

    Max Planck

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:05 AM

    @Alan – god was obviously a bit of a cnut in the OT to say the least but hay whats the point of being a deity if you cant get angry once in a while. I’d say though that “his” views on homosexuality go into the timeless category , so the christians would have to argue that god was wrong or has changed his mind…

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:40 PM

    Actually, most liberal Christians believe that the Bible was written by people with prejudices and their own agendas. Most adults can take the bits about no polycotton blends and homosexuality being evil with a grain of salt while still trying to follow the love your neighbour bit.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:54 PM

    Yeah, if the bible is their justification then catholic women shouldn’t wear trousers because that’s an abomination too. Same goes for shellfish and mixed fabrics – all of these considered as bad as homosexuality and originating in leviticus (which, along with Deuteronomy orders the Jews to kill anyone who stands in their way).

    The New Testament seems to be a matter for personal choice, some ignore the Old Testament and focus solely on the new, some focus on both – which contradict each other massively.. Must be very hard to keep up with all those double standards – it’s almost as if the whole thing is set up to ensure the failure of the believer and their condemnation to hell – but god is all forgiving (unless you fail to pay him lip service)..

    I dunno, if they could accept that it’s a belief rather than some authoritative “truth” the world would be a much better place.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:16 PM

    If its full of prejudices and agendas what use is it?

    The “love your neighbour” bit is just as nonsensical as the rest if you give it more than a few seconds thought. Its a facile edict not much more enlightening than the stuff of Aesops fables.

    It makes no sense to “love” Pol Pot, Hitler, Fred West etc… Should I love my neighbour if I have to endure watching him rape my wife? Maybe I shouldn’t kill him (arguably), but I certainly shouldn’t have to love him.

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    Mute Seán Gallagher
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:21 PM

    Alan, you’re missing the point of that part… far from a Bible basher, in fact as far as can be I reckon but the whole point is…

    If everyone did it, including Pol Pot, Hitler and Fred West, then we wouldn’t have Pol Pot, Hitler and Fred West.

    Totally off topic, but as a point of clarification thought that might be worth making.

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:44 PM

    Well, people like Jesus, Nelson Mandela and Ghandi would have told you that hating people for the evil they do only harms you, not them. And while it might seem like a simple idea, that doesn’t mean that eliminating bitterness and trying to be a kind person is a bad thing.

    At the end of the day, we all have prejudices and preconceptions (there are quite a few sexist atheists I’ve come across). All any of us can do is try to act in a loving way.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:41 PM

    I actually agree with the sentiment generally as something to strive towards, even if its perhaps a bit simplistic. The “if everyone did it” case is a bit idealistic to put it mildly, there has to be some level of conditions attached in practicality. Also, arguably its against the human survival condition to love your neighbour “as yourself”.

    Even if you were to accept that a guy called Jesus existed (which was *probably* the case, along with a large dose of myth, – though historically very debatable at the same time whether he existed at all, but thats for another day….), you don’t need to worship they guy to take it on board, – its essentially a humanist message that we should have plenty of empathy. You don’t need all the trappings and rituals of religion to move forward with this.

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Jan 8th 2014, 6:34 PM

    “its essentially a humanist message that we should have plenty of empathy. You don’t need all the trappings and rituals of religion to move forward with this.”

    Of course you don’t need religion to be a good person who works to make the world a better place. But some people consider religion an inspiration to work towards social justice.

    As I’ve said elsewhere on this page – people should be judged by their actions and if they do good things which are inspired by their religion (Desmond Tutu being the best example I can think of), why would you be negative about that?

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 6:57 PM

    ” I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centres of civilisation of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things, whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex nor condition,

    and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infants’ heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race.”

    Jesuit oath.
    http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit

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    Mute Michelle Dunne
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:45 PM

    You too are missing the point that was just made above Catherine. Remember live and let live;-)

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    Mute Gavin Crowley
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:55 PM

    This nonsense was written by a Willie Power of Killinaskully type. Any old nonsense can be read into the record of Congress.

    http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Anti-Catholicism/jesuit_oath_debunked.htm

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 9th 2014, 9:32 AM

    If only the Bible contained just the “Love your neighbour as yourself” bit then it might not be so bad. However, i’m afraid that’s not all that is to it. That is far from the only message in there.

    I’d say 95% of the Bible is morally objectionable, pure superstition, nonsense, dangerous edicts and facile fables in morality for primitive civilisation(through no fault of their own).

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    Mute Jim Murphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:33 PM

    It’s not only gay people who are treated as inferior human beings by the Catholic Church. What about transgender people, sex workers? Any woman who dares to have an abortion?

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:41 PM

    You can add “women in general” to that list also… They are not allowed in the ranks of the catholic hierarchy.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:04 PM

    ..oh yes and people of other religions or no religion, and people who masturbate – they’re just as bad as Hitler, – they are all going to hell just like him.

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:16 PM

    I think they might have downgraded masturbation at some point but I am in agonies for the people of the olden days of yesteryear who wanked their way into the fiery pit of hell. What must they think of the more recent souls, hopping on the up-escalator to fluffy clouds, with their wrists well exercised and a few crunchy tissues in the back pocket?

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    Mute Gearóid Ó Máille
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    Jan 9th 2014, 7:45 AM

    Completely agree Alan – but just to point out that the RCC (since Vatican II) is far less damning of people practicing other religions than many other Christian churches are

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 9th 2014, 9:26 AM

    … you mean they actually started to regard non-Christians as human – in previous times most non-Christians were regarded as little more than souless beasts and this was used as justification of the mass slaughter of “natives” during Papal Bull endorsed Colonisation.

    Vatican II while “less damning” is hardly much in the way of enlightened progression. As said earlier, this progress comes about simply because the position of the Catholic Church becomes absolutely untenable by contemporary standards of moraility.

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:57 PM

    Very true. Gender rights are unfortunately less developed than LGB rights and they seem to be finally gaining some visibility.

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    Mute Gearóid Ó Máille
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    Jan 9th 2014, 2:35 PM

    Again I agree, though what I meant was that the current RCC stance on people of other religions is far milder than that of many modern Christian denominations (which deal with the same contemporary/moral issues). But this is not to say that the RCC is in any way generally progressive.

    Colonisation (particularly of South America) of course was disastrous, and that papal bull of was of course unnecessary meddling – but I worry people who may not be familiar with the 1493 bull may feel it was some carte blanche to kill non-Catholics, when it was more a permission to grab land and convert natives (although the invaders did turn it into a bloodbath and the Vatican didn’t seem too put out).

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 3:23 PM

    I completely agree. I am really glad that my parents are pick and mix Catholics as opposed to pedantic evangelicals.

    The Catholic Church played a huge part in colonization however. In order for colonizers to justify their actions, they needed to use the guise of religion and ‘civilization’ to ease their conscience. That and of course stereotypes to denigrate and demean people.

    The Catholic Church banned the consumption of coca leaves in the Andes. Ingesting coca leaves relieves altitude sickness, depresses one’s appetite and provide one with a source of energy. Banning coca severely affected the work of slaves as they were hungrier and less productive so at the behest of the colonial authorities, the Catholic Church once again allowed the consumptiom of coca. Catholicism and colonization just like Protestantism in Ireland and other parts of the world colonized by the British went hand in hand.

    It is fascinating to see African preachers dressed in European clothing speaking French or English referring to homosexuality as a white man’s disease. Homophobia is in fact a white man’s disease implanted in Africa by European religions to the detriment of local cultures and human rights

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    Mute Patricia Ann McCarthy Moore
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:15 AM

    Rather, the Roman Catholic organisation has a long standing problem with Heterosexuals and female reproduction. The female prisoners in the Magdalen laundries were certainly not put there because of their homosexual inclinations. By imposing the celibacy rule on heterosexual people and denying them the right to marry a member of the opposite sex, the organisation signals its antipathy towards heterosexuals, not homosexuals. I would be interested to hear of examples where homosexuals were imprisoned and forced to work in a laundry for 50 years because of their sexual inclination. In fact I would be interested to hear of any example of discrimination against homosexuals, where the discrimination results in imprisonment or disgrace, which is almost always the case when an unmarried heterosexual woman becomes pregnant. The pregnancy may even occur as a result of rape, yet the victim gets no sympathy whatsoever from that organisation. No, this journal article is all about obsfuscation and concealment of the real issues of the subjugation of women by an all male unmarried hierarchy. Most notably it sheds no light whatever on the teachings of Jesus.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:17 AM

    Get a blog. I’d recommend jezebel.

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    Mute Tríona Barrow
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:40 AM

    You do know gay people include women, right?

    Being homosexual used to be illegal – imprisonment due to their sexuality.

    Look up corrective rape too, some cultures believe if a woman is gay that they can basically make her straight.

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    Mute Patricia Ann McCarthy Moore
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:46 AM

    I don’t need a blog. I have an attentive daily following of 50 thumb downers on the journal.ie

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    Mute Patricia Ann McCarthy Moore
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:51 AM

    When was the last time a man or a woman was imprisoned for homosexuality in this country? References and citations please? Only heterosexual women have been imprisoned, and forced to do unpaid labour. Those are the facts!

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    Mute Peace for All
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:06 PM

    There could have been lesbians there too Patricia. Gay women are just as good at laundry as straight women.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:18 PM

    Well Double-Barrell, can you cite your source that all the magdalene prisoners were heterosexual?

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:01 PM

    Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1993 following the case Mary Robinson and David Norris took Patricia. Up til then, it was a criminal offence to be gay in this country.

    It’s never been an “offence” to fall pregnant out of wedlock, it was just so frowned upon due to church morals about pre marital sex that families sent their daughters “away” to cover up their transgressions. Ps – not everyone in the laundry was there for these reasons – some were put there for entirely separate reasons.

    Perhaps you need to learn a little more about it.

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:12 PM

    @Patrica Ann: has it ever crossed your mind that women might have been imprisoned in Magdalene laundries for showing lesbian tendencies? Women were incarcerated in those evil institutions for fare more than being pregnant outside of marriage. It is also quite ridiculous to negate Church adversity to homosexuals because of its rampant misogyny – the Church proved itself highly capable of multitasking on that front.

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    Mute Tríona Barrow
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:06 PM

    Patricia, I must admit that I’m finding it hard to find that information. However, I have learned that the law that was in existence actually came into our laws when we ruled by the British. I should really be studying, but it’s something pretty interesting! I did find one thing for you, in England one of the last people arrested for “buggery” was Michael Pitt-Rivers in 1954.

    However, I am more interested in how you know the facts, like how it was only heterosexual women who have been forced into labour and imprisoned. I’d like to also remind you of the gay propaganda law in Russia that was brought in recently – the reality is that across the world is that some people do not hold the same rights as other people.

    I understand your point, women have gone through a lot over the years. But my point is, it is not only heterosexual women. It’s also homosexual. heterosexual, asexual, pansexual and people across the Kinsey scale. Not just women, men too. I feel it’s a little unfair to try and go “you guys don’t have problems, look at all these other problems that have occurred”

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:14 PM

    Nice trolling Steven, that made me laugh :)

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    Mute Patricia Ann McCarthy Moore
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    Jan 8th 2014, 8:09 PM

    I always enjoy your comments Stephen. I alone give you a thumbs up when all the other lesser mortals attempt to take you down a pedestal or two.
    Yes, my microcosm does indeed reflect the macrocosm of electrical supercharges. Being a mere speck of dust is not as insignificant as you and the Miraders claim. What about plutonium particles? 

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    Mute Patricia Ann McCarthy Moore
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    Jan 8th 2014, 8:44 PM

    Triona, I think you have made my point for me. There is no record of homosexual male illtreatment or incarceration because of their sexual activity. Those are the facts.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:57 PM

    Patsy where is your proof that they were all heterosexual?

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    Mute steven callaghan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:20 PM

    Patricia, I’ve got an excellent proposition for you and your only true friend Steephen who always gives you green thumbs. Here’s my plan: You orchestrate your immense fame and wealth to become the world tyrant over every nation of Earth. You would establish one religion, one government, one economy and so forth. This is not borrowed from the biblical ends times as you might at first surmise. This is something new and much more bold. My original concept does not involve any pacts with demonic entities or enlightened creatures of any kind.

    Furthermore, you would round up and capture the unlimited number of Russian and Chinese spies, which infest the United States and Western Europe. The ones I is always referring to. Obviously, I would be your second in command and I’d be third since it’s based on my brilliant schemes.

    After you’ve conquered the world, you would set up bases on Venus and Saturn. You’d give us all flying UFO cars and robots that look better than super models. You’re the only person capable of making it work flawlessly. Please consider this seriously. The planet needs you more than ever.

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    Mute Justine Quinn
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    Jan 12th 2014, 8:41 PM

    You should read Diarmaid Feriter’a book “Occasions of Sin: Sex and Society in Modern Ireland” he carried out research on media reporting of crimes, including sexual offences prosecuted in the District Courts, prosecutions for various offences relating to homosexuality were common. Sometimes the names of those who were caught we published in the local papers, this must have ruined lives and sometimes led to suicides. The stigma stemming from criminalisation made life very difficult for gay people in Ireland.

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    Mute James Patrick Smith
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:32 PM

    The Catholic Church are in denial over many things but who other than the indoctrinated blind followers cares what a morally bankrupt institution who rather protect its image over protecting children.

    84% “Catholics” according to the census but only 18% attend mass obviously some people are just culturally Catholic but don’t believe the nonsense deep down and just go to weddings,funerals etc
    The times are changing people are educating themselves and the power of the Church in trying to dictate to Ireland is dwindling.

    Morality is innate in humans so we as a species don’t need the dogma of religion to be good or kind and show empathy.In regards of homosexuality (which is displayed by plenty of species in nature long before a book of hypocrisy called the Bible was ever written) what two consenting adults do should be no ones business bar their own love is love.

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    Mute Jim Murphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:40 PM

    Exactly, you don’t need religion to be a good person and to treat others with the respect they deserve regardless of their beliefs, sexual orientation or sexual activity (e.g. sex workers). Every individual is entitled to the same level of respect and whether they are gay , transgender or heterosexual is irrelevant.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:13 PM

    Don’t worry clergy – you’re in good company.. Jesus may well have been gay himself..
    http://www.alternet.org/story/155118/was_jesus_gay_probably/

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:24 PM

    Ooh this is interesting. I wonder was homosexuality acceptable in those times similar to how it was in greece and rome.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:19 PM

    Well, he hung around with all the outcasts, prostitutes, lepers and sinners (by the standards of the time) maybe he felt an affinity with them? He also had 12 male friends and no mention of a woman.. And told Mary (his mother) to take one of the apostles as her own son – the one who was at the tomb after his death, the way the WOMEN usually were..

    Of course – that’s presuming his existence.. I’m more inclined to go with the Sun of God myself, that article is just a Christian preachers view on it..

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    Mute Michael Looney
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:58 PM

    There were 10 commandments.. I can’t remember which one says you can’t be gay!! There are also 7 deadly sins.. DEADLY sins.. The deadliest of sins against god.. Not one of them says anything about being gay!! Taking the lords name in vein, working on a Sunday, adultery, greed, sloth etc.. Piss and moan all you like but according to the bible every single person walking this earth is going to hell.

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    Mute Simon Palmer
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:19 PM

    Traditionally in Ireland the way to ‘deal with a gay son’ was to send him to the Priesthood. That’s probably still the case in some countries. No wonder Rome has such as vibrant gay scene :)

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    Mute Joe Valentine
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:14 AM

    If you’re gay why would you become a priest? It’s like joining a basketball team when you don’t have arms.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:17 AM

    Its a different story if you and everyone else on the team are fooling themselves that “they have no arms”… :)

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    Mute Joe Valentine
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:30 AM

    What? So you’re saying that because they don’t support homosexuality they must be gay themselves? I’ve never come across that line of thinking at all! [Said in a very sarcastic manner]

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:41 AM

    So being s straight man or woman makes you better suited to being a priest?? Oh do please explain how..

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    Mute Joe Valentine
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:24 AM

    If that needs explaining to you then I’ve lost all hope for humanity

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:13 PM

    Go ahead and explain it there Joe

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    Mute Joe Valentine
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:33 PM

    Well let me make this simple for you Darth. It’s their club and their policy is to think homosexuality is wrong. Why would anyone join a club that will kick them out if they discover their true identity? Would you not think it equally mad for a black person to join the KKK?
    Why don’t you go down to curves and protest about being able to join that club? lol

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:34 PM

    Then how do you explain the gay priests that McAleese has referenced?

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:54 PM

    The Catholic Church did a very good job of creating what, for a long time, was a good hiding place for many of the gay men and women it disenfranchised and dispossessed. You knew you could only love someone of the same sex? Well, that was verboten. So why not become “officially” celibate, thereby quashing the insistence of The Mammy who wanted you to settle down with a nice person of the opposite sex. Logic would have suggested – whether then or now – that you wouldn’t be the only one in that situation.

    Of course, this tedious debate also seems to overlook the inability of many straight priests to keep it zipped. The gays don’t actually have a monopoly on sexual activity.

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    Mute Joe Valentine
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:47 PM

    I’m sure there’s a few and a small few at that but has that got to do with my point above. Their club, their rules. If people don’t like it leave. Very simple stuff here. Or better still why don’t gay priests make their own church instead of pointlessly trying to change the RCC?

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:55 PM

    The Church no longer allows people to leave – so it’s not as simple as you suggest. There is also the reality that people are baptised as babies (i.e., it is never their decision) and are raised/indoctrinated in school and, depending on the devoutness of the family, at home. Some of that also leaks into wider society, so the water is muddied further. Also, it’s not just gay priests who want to change the RCC – a lot of the lay congregation feel the need for change too and probably would like to *try* for change before leaving for good (not that that is an option any more – disgraceful).

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    Mute Joe Valentine
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:16 PM

    By not showing up you have left. Just because your name is on a piece of paper somewhere does not mean you belong to them.

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:25 PM

    Maybe. Maybe not. Personally, I’d be infuriated if I had ‘simply left’ and they still decided to count me among their ‘flock’ to for the purposes of statistics. One might be a small number, but I’d rather that collective number was officially smaller, even by a paltry one.

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:42 PM

    Actually it might not count to you that it’s on a piece of paper but it does to them.. 2.2billion members would become a hell of a lot less if that were the case.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:52 PM

    Based on your logic Joe would you tolerate a branch if the KKK setting up shop in your town?

    Their club, their rules and all that jazz.

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:04 PM

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056513779

    Article 20:

    (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
    (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

    The RCC is now basically forcing people to remain members, and no longer allows them to leave it ‘officially’ which it should.”

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    Mute Theresa Ward
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    Jan 9th 2014, 12:04 AM

    I agree & I even concur. What YOU said Chris…………. that’s how it was, not necessarily how it should be but how it was.

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    Mute Gearóid Ó Máille
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    Jan 10th 2014, 12:21 AM

    You can absolutely get a notice of defection and send it to the diocesan office. You’re not trapped lads – just mind you don’t join something worse in 5 years time when you’re “finding yourself”. Better the devil you know sometimes….!

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Jan 10th 2014, 12:01 PM

    I’ve done this Gearoid but it doesn’t get you out.. I’m still counted as one of the supposed 2.2 billion Catholics on the planet. Along with probably more than 50% of the rest of them who had no choice in the matter. And I’ve been an atheist since I was 7 years old so I found myself a long time ago. The devil is much like all the gods a figment of imagination and a tool of control.

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    Mute Gráinne Duggan
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    Jan 11th 2014, 9:33 PM

    What do you mean, Joe, “if you’re gay, why would you become a priest?” Since priests are supposed to be celibate anyway, whether they are homosexual or heterosexual makes not the slightest difference.

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    Mute Paddy Murray
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:39 AM

    A President of Ireland suggesting a cardinal come out. Wonder if a cardinal will ever suggest that….
    ….best not go there.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:15 PM

    Go there Paddy, what were you gonna say?

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    Mute Dean Anderson
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:43 PM

    No cardinal would ever out a president, prime minister or indeed anyone who was in the closet. There are a huge number of gay priests known to us in the gay community but we don’t go about outing them. IF the church started outing gays you can bet your life the private lives of many catholic bishops and priests would start filling the column inches of newspapers

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    Mute Mary Connolly
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:18 PM

    The church will ignore her comments… because she’s a woman. Doesn’t matter how influential she is… in their eyes she’s only a woman. Sad but true.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:58 AM

    Jettison her — the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church can do without people like her stirring sh*t in the Oirish Times; deceiving souls in the process.

    You’d think someone with a licentiate in canon law would know better.

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    Mute Dungeon Master
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:34 AM

    Do you have a licentiate in Canon Law Oscar?

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    Mute Dean Anderson
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:32 PM

    Father Oscar get over it. The writing is on the wall. Pope Benedict was the last pope to condemn homosexuality and probably will be the last one in history to engage in gay bashing. Francis has at least faced up to the fact that the majority of priests are gay and if he ejects them from the catholic Church the church will really face a massive vocations crisis and will have to turn to ordaining donkeys if it continues to refuse to ordain married heterosexual men & women

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:16 PM

    Ha! “the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” can’t stand a bit of constructive criticism? Not much cop as an international church, then!

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    Mute John Fitzgerald
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:11 PM

    Just a note on clarification. The “Catholic Church” includes the total community of people in the pews as well. It’s the hierarchy that are in denial not the people. They (the bishops) are still in denial (by being silent) about the cover-up of the clerical child sex abuse scandal. That is a far more serious issue and will bring the house of cards down, if not addressed. There is a herd of elephants roaming through the Vatican corridors and are not seen or heard.
    The bottom line is; that considering most catholic communities have left the “contraception issue” far behind and forgotten about ; while it is still on the “statute book” ; just shows how out of touch the hierarchy are. If that has not changed; none of the other issues have any chance of being considered. I hope Francis will not run out of time.

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    Mute Oscar Doolittle
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:16 AM

    The homosexual debate is over. It’s irrelevant to the church’s mission in 2014.

    Go read the litany of publications on the matter.

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:59 AM

    lol you wish, wait til the equal right to marriage referendum kicks off, Dana and gang will be frothing in the mouth

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:05 PM

    No Oscar, it is your church that is irrelevant in 2014.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:19 PM

    What is the church’s mission in 2014?

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    Mute J. Dunn
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:36 PM

    Jane, While I don’t necessarily agree with Oscar. I see the work of Brother Kevin Crowley of the Capuchin Day Centre as relevant.

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    Mute Dean Anderson
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:39 PM

    Maybe for you Father Oscar it is irrelevant but society will continue to hold the vatican and the catholic church to account for its evil behaviour in discriminating against gays, women and in condemning millions to death from AIDS because you priests & nuns have such a morbid fascination in other men’s willies. A sick perverted group of people you are

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    Mute martin ryan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:44 PM

    Seen as though being gay is such a problem in the Catholic Church their mission should be to rid the church of homosexual priests.

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:47 PM

    J, I see what you are saying, that man does do good work. However I don’t think the religion of those who perform charitable works is relevant to the work they do. Would he still be a good person if he wasn’t a priest? Yes. Are there many good people out there helping others who aren’t affiliated with religious orders? Undoubtedly. I think it’s important not to confuse the issues.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:52 PM

    Kevin Crowley’s religion is irrelevant to the brilliant work he does. His morality and kindness do not stem from his religion but simply from human nature. Having the facility and means to carry out the work he does also helps.

    We’re he not a religious man he would still be a hero.

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:57 PM

    “Kevin Crowley’s religion is irrelevant to the brilliant work he does. ” – See, I wouldn’t totally agree with that, because I think he would tell you he’s inspired by the example of Jesus and really does believe in helping others, loving your neighbour and giving half your cloak to the man who has none.

    But on the other hand, it’s absolutely true that people should be judged by their actions, not their beliefs. Religious, not religious – more important is how you live your life.

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    Mute J. Dunn
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:23 PM

    I just can’t agree with your original statement of ‘…it is your church that is irrelevant in 2014.’ i’m not confused by the issue, rather trying to more clearly define a single aspect.
    Is Brother Crowley an inherently benevolent person? Yes. Does his affiliation with the OFM afford him the means to continuously and positively impact the lives of others? Yes.
    I think it’s fair to say that your blanket statement does nothing to clarify or define any particular issue in regards to irrelevancy. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:09 PM

    just how evil is clear here.
    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm
    “the massacres of the Inquisition, which are more execrable still, as being judicially committed-
    to say nothing of the innumerable schisms, and twenty wars of popes against popes-bishops against bishops the poisoning assassinations-
    the cruel rapines of more than a dozen of popes, who far exceeded a Nero or Caligula in every species of crime and wickedness-
    the massacre of twelve millions of the inhabitants of the new world, executed CRUCIFIX IN HAND; and all for the honour and glory of the Jewish deity and his son!”

    – Mitchell Logan, Christ

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    Mute Marion Murphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:21 PM

    The assassinations of Christians by Atheist Communists in the USSR let alone starvation & torture. That was acceptable?

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 9th 2014, 12:41 AM

    The prolonged and deliberate rape if Irish children by the roman catholic church in Ireland. That was acceptable?

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    Mute Ogochukwu
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:38 AM

    They send out all the nice priests to our villages and we all lie down and look at the stars

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    Mute Theresa Ward
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:49 PM

    100% behind our esteemed former president here. Bravo! I reckon Our Mary would get on well with the new Pope!
    Coming from a good Catholic background, where everything is a sin, yet growing in a world where said church (certainly in this country) showed itself to be giving safe refuge to paedophiles while maligning every and all type of Consensual Adult Relationships, I can only applaud the honourable Mrs. McAleese for her honest and outspoken views.
    Would be great if a few of our more blinkered compatriots got a rub of the Mary Mac relic so some compassion might rub off on ‘em!

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    Mute David Giles
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:14 AM

    I am very pleased that Mary MacAleese has spoken out as she has. She is uniquely qualified to do so as a lawyer, a distinguished academic, a leading lay Roman Catholic, a student of Canon Law, a mother, a wife and a former President of Ireland. One hopes that after she completes her studies in Rome, His Holiness the Pope will appoint her to a senior position with a mandate to bring about real change in the way that the Church deals with issues such as child abuse and exploitation, clerical celibacy, the role of women in the church, heterosexuality, bisexuality and homosexuality. Ideally she should be made a Cardinal but I suppose that may be a bit too much to wish for in a Church which, quite incredibly, still does not ordain women despite its devotion to Mary and all the great female saints and martyrs.

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    Mute TheRepublican32
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:47 PM

    It is genuinely sad to see that one is now frowned upon for being a Catholic in a Catholic Country. It is simply disgraceful to see.

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:09 PM

    “in a Catholic Country”
    – It isn’t, – if it was it would be a Theocracy, similar to Saudi Arabia.
    It is in fact a Democratic Republic (“The Republic of Ireland”), – and as such the State is supposed to regard all its citizens equally irrespective of their religion. Catholicim has an undefined “special position” in the constitution (though times are a changing) but at the same time the constitution states that cannot be discrimination based on religion.

    I don’t think most people are “frowning on Catholics” as people, – rather the religion itself as a belief system. – and that should be perfectly acceptable, – no beliefs are ideas should be immune from scrutiny.

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    Mute TheRepublican32
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:53 PM

    Yes, the special role of the Catholic Church in Ireland was recognised in our constitution, you’re right on that one. But not on the “Republic of Ireland”. No such thing exists. We live in the Irish Free State. The Republic of Ireland was an ideal set out in 1916, and to this day we have not achieved the Republic set out in 1916.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 6:50 PM

    The Republic of Ireland was established by The Republic of Ireland Act 1948.

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    Mute White Fang
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:32 PM

    The Irish free state ceased to exist in 1937.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:47 PM

    It seems republican has already been suspended from twitter

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    Mute TheRepublican32
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    Jan 8th 2014, 8:26 PM

    Don’t worry. I’m back again. And everything time I am suspended, I will be back again. I set up this account and a new email in under 10 minutes.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:59 PM

    So do you admit you were wrong about Irish history?

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:58 PM

    If Ireland isn’t a republic, why is it referred to as the Republic of Ireland internationally? Or ROI for short?
    Surely as a “Republican” you haven’t failed to notice this?

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    Mute Gavin Crowley
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    Jan 9th 2014, 12:09 AM

    Twasn’t. Just an official trade description. The queen is still referenced as the ‘organ’.

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    Mute Art Casper
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:48 PM

    Once again we see proponents of the agenda suggesting it is the Catholic Church, and people of faith in general, as well as opponents of the agenda, who have it wrong. It really doesn’t matter how many people see things the way the proponents see them. It matters what is right and true, fact or fiction. The behavior is sinful from the perspective of Biblical teaching and it is foolish and oppressive to expect the Church should reject Biblical teaching because the morally confused and corrupt are offended by that truth. And then, to bristle that the condition is rightfully regarded as “disordered”, while speaking of how many “gay” men commit suicide, requires a cognitive dissonance that is willful and deceitful. A dialogue seeking to work out how to deal with this issue is certainly in order. But to do so based upon the plethora of lies and falsehoods proponents of the behavior insist we take as true does not lead to an outcome that is good for anyone.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:54 PM

    What lies and falsehoods have the proponents of “this behaviour” professed?

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    Mute Dee4
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:54 PM

    in the quiet words of the virgin mary… come again?

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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:57 PM

    God should stop giving Catholics gay babies, so. That would sort everything.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:01 PM

    Art had a dictionary for breakfast. Thinks it makes him seem more intelligent.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:12 PM

    The bible is a lie. It’s based off of stories from ancient Sumeria which clearly state that the figure cast as god in the bible was not a god. Yahweh and Adonai are En.Lil and En.Ki respectively, who created us, but both refer to the creator of all. En.Ki told us to stop serving his brother En.Lil as he was not a god (he’s the serpent character for that part of the story) and told us to leave the garden of Ed.In.
    Even the story of Noah and the flood predates Judeo Christianity – but in that it wasn’t that god sent the flood, it’s that En.Lil knew it was coming and was willing to let us die while En.Ki wasn’t..

    The figure of Jesus is an anthropomorphism of the SUN. The story a calendar based upon it’s movements in the ancient world, all ancient cultures had similar stories.. The name “Bethlehem” even refers to the constellation Virgo which “gives birth” to the sun.. Before it pals around with its 12 buddies the constellations, healing the sick (vitamin D production now known to be vital to health), walking on water, being betrayed by his friend (Scorpio) and then dying and rising again after 3 days (winter solstice)..

    If you wish to use your religion as basis to oppress others or deny them respect, perhaps you should look into it’s origins. It’s about as truthful as the Daily Fail..

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:19 PM

    Excellent comment Shanti. I’ve a feeling this will be new to many catholics whi blindly follow their church.

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:40 PM

    I wonder if Art realises how easily his inarticulate pomposity can be turned on its head?

    “Once again we see proponents of the agenda suggesting it is gay people, and people who support their equality in general, as well as opponents of the agenda, who have it wrong. It really doesn’t matter how many people see things the way the proponents see them. It matters what is right and true, fact or fiction. The behaviour is sinful from the perspective of Biblical teaching and it is foolish and oppressive to expect gay people should accept Biblical teaching because the morally confused and corrupt are offended that their truth is not universally accepted. And then, to bristle that the condition is wrongfully regarded as “disordered”, and how that judgement might contribute to the the suicide of many human beings, requires a cognitive dissonance that is willful and deceitful. A dialogue seeking to work out how to deal with this issue is certainly in order. But to do so based upon the plethora of lies and falsehoods proponents of the Bible insist we take as true does not lead to an outcome that is good for anyone.”

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    Mute Dungeon Master
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:47 PM

    ‘The behavior is sinful from the perspective of Biblical teaching and it is foolish and oppressive to expect the Church should reject Biblical teaching because the morally confused and corrupt are offended by that truth.’

    Psalms 137, 8-9; (Infanticide)

    ‘People of Babylon, you are sentenced to be destroyed.
    Happy are those who pay you back
    for what you have done to us.
    Happy are those who grab your babies
    and smash them against the rocks.’

    Levitiucs 25:45-46; (Slavery)

    ‘Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

    And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.’

    Deuteronomy 2:34; (Genocide)

    And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

    You can keep your biblical ‘instruction’. You don’t hear these passages being read out at mass, yet they are the Word of the Lord.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:52 PM

    Thanks be to god.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:53 PM

    Sorry I’ve been indoctrinated and conditioned to say that whenever I hear the phrase “this us the word of the lord”

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    Mute Jim Murphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:50 PM

    Maybe you could put that in plain English.

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:12 PM

    who? what god? not seen him lately, have you.?

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:16 PM

    Excellently done Chris :)

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    Mute up3bs9LF
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    Jan 8th 2014, 1:46 PM

    there are many other groups that feel they are treated as second class citizens also like the poor unemployed. i would find it difficult to see a comparison there.Im catholic and I have no problem with anyone who is gay and I would agree that you are as intitled to the same things as anyone else. But that does not change my views on the issue of
    marriage. Since its beginning it was and still is the exchange of commitments between a man and woman.If this is a tipping point for the gay community and will put closeure to your vocal thoughts of been a second class citizen. Why would it do that?this worries me if it is not closeure because,my fear is is that this may lead to gay sex education been thought in schools,can anyone guarantee it wont?

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:01 PM

    “The fact that you can’t sell your daughter for three goats and a cow means that we’ve *already* redefined marriage” http://www.BelieveOutLoud.com

    FYI, “gay sex education” won’t make anyone gay. I’d cite my middle son who, despite “straight sex education” never turned out straight. If you know the mechanics of it, how come *you* aren’t gay?

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    Mute up3bs9LF
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:22 PM

    if you are going to thumb down say why!

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    Mute Alan R
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:24 PM

    “Im catholic and I have no problem with anyone who is gay and I would agree that you are as intitled to the same things as anyone else.”…
    ..except you don’t think they are entitled to the same things as anyone else, do you? eg. the basic right to commit to a shared life with someone in the eyes of the law
    - Its a bit like saying “I’m not racist but…”

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    Mute Chris Dunphy
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:26 PM

    I did. Care to respond?

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Jan 8th 2014, 2:57 PM

    Something tells me these the same people who wish they could get three cows for their daughters. Not coincidental that those who oppose equal marriage don’t tend to be so pro-women’s rights either.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:55 PM

    David where is marriage actually defined as being between a man and woman?

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    Mute TheRepublican32
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:56 PM

    They thumb down because they are ignorant, delusional, lefties. I agree with you. Marriage is the union of a man and woman in the eyes of God. You are not wrong on that one.

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    Mute TheRepublican32
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    Jan 8th 2014, 4:57 PM

    I am very much so pro womens rights but do not agree with same sex marriage.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 5:02 PM

    Let’s not be ignorant here republican.

    When we talk about same sex marriage it is only civil marriage. We are not talking about a religious ceremony. Nobody wants to force priests to marry homosexuals against their beliefs.

    You know this. Do not play stupid on this matter.

    I return thus to my question. Where is marriag (civil marriage) defined as being between a man and a woman?

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    Mute TheRepublican32
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    Jan 8th 2014, 5:13 PM

    Marriage was originally created to act as a barrier of security for a child, to help ensure that the child is brought up properly by both their mother and their father, rather than being raised in a broken household.
    Now, I put a question to you. Seen as marriage is there to protect children, what is the point in gay marriage? They can still adopt other peoples children through an agency without having to have a civil ceremony.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 5:16 PM

    It has NOTHING to do with ‘the eyes of god’. I wish to legally marry. I do not want any religion to recognise it. I want the state to recognise a legal contract and afford it the same as other contracts. The contract does not and will not reference genitalia. The constitution does not either.

    For YOU the sacrament of marriage is between a man and a woman and in the eyes of god. Fair enough, if that’s what you believe. I do not wish to alter that or threaten that in any way. Religion and state are supposed to be seperate. Marriage is not solely a religious act so don’t protest to block legal state recognised contracts based on your religious beliefs. Thanking you kindly

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    Mute TheRepublican32
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    Jan 8th 2014, 5:20 PM

    Absolutely, each to their own.

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 6:46 PM

    Gay people can adobt or go surrogate route but they currently have no legal protection as a family unit (not to mention taxation and inheritance issues)

    Gay marriage provides this.

    Why do you oppose it so?

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:15 PM

    the sacred marriage is inside each being whether male or female in uniting their own male and female energies and becoming whole/holy.

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:15 PM

    The church IS the state.

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    Mute Catherine Mill
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:17 PM

    legal does not mean lawful. its all in the words.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:22 PM

    Why do you care whether someone else can marry the person they love or not?
    Is your life so sad that you strive to deny other people happiness out of spite?

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:09 PM

    The church IS the state?! What? And you like this idea. A bit of clarification here please

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    Mute Theresa Ward
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    Jan 9th 2014, 12:18 AM

    You’ve no problems with anyone who is gay, but have issues on gay marriage?
    C’mere David, in the nicest possible way I can ask this, cos you seem like an okay bloke – and this IS a legal rather than religious issue really: Why not legalise their unions? so that they too can be as miserable as the rest of us heteros/catholics/human beings in matrimony, to have exactly the same legal rights as next of kin when their life partner (aka husband/wife) is in the throes of death and only one person can go into the ICU, or share ownership of property, or jointly bring up children in a loving environment where both parents love, want and care for them?

    Yep, that gay marriage stuff is defo dodgy I bose!! (I have one eyebrow raised here – not judging, just enquiring, as you do). And yes, Now I am being facetious, just to clarify :)
    I’m also hetero, allegedly Catholic and definitely a parent, with marriage & mortgage in the baggage.

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    Mute Ruth Maxwell
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    Jan 9th 2014, 8:31 AM

    Is that code for i watch lesbian porn, once theyre not married?!

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    Mute Naomi Maxwell
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    Jan 9th 2014, 11:49 AM

    What’s your problem with gay sex education in schools, if you are a Catholic who has, and I quote “no problem with anyone who is gay and I would agree that you are as intitled to the same things as anyone else”. Well done for showing your hypocrisy in full technicolour!

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    Mute Cristina Rossi
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    Jan 8th 2014, 12:26 PM

    Give it a rest. Peace people

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    Mute BenBradlley
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:16 PM

    Why can’t 2 sisters get married, if we are all for equality?

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:24 PM

    Because incest is currently illegal

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 9:12 PM

    Incest. Rape. Paedophilia. Homosexuality. DIFFERENT UNRELATED THINGS. In the really dark corners of society there is some crossover. Don’t believe the lies that the bigots spin, don’t pass them on either

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:00 PM

    Ailbhe a bit of clarity please. What are you trying to say?

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:16 PM

    BenBradlley is trying to compare homosexuality to incest. Many seem to think that homosexuality is linked many grotesque acts. Homosexuals are no more likely to sleep with their relatives, animals, minors or to sexually abuse in any way. In an effort to create fear, people will attempt to link these, as above. I am dispelling the rumours.
    Furthermore, those against SSM, as above, will try and suggest that marriage equality will allow for anybody to marry anybody, regardless of blood relationship, age, species, object etc. They will also suggest that polygamy will be allowed. All of which are completely unfounded.

    I for one am sick of people suggesting such things

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Jan 8th 2014, 10:25 PM

    Does he actually know any women who want to marry their sisters? Because I don’t – so he basically wants to ignore the *actual* pain it causes that some families are treated as better than others for a *theoretical* idea of marriage that no one is clamouring for.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:09 PM

    When groups of siblings come along and request their rights to marry, we can discuss it.
    Right now, only non related (to the best of their knowledge) people are asking to marry one another.. For some silly reason there’s a notion that only people who are not of the same sex wish to enter this civil, legal contract, in order to establish security and protection for each other in the event of any problems, but this is not true. People of the same sex who fall in love and choose to build a life with each other want these protections for their loved ones too – and civil partnership just doesn’t cut it.

    Let the church keep matrimony, they’re welcome to it. No one can marry an animal until they can train it to speak vows and sign it’s name. A minor cannot consent to a contract by law. There are very few siblings wishing to admit they’re sleeping together never mind requesting marriage, and as for polygamy – well, that’s another red herring because no ones campaigning for it either..

    So how about we just focus on the people who have legitimate reasons to request equal treatment for their legal relationships. Can you think of a valid reason that this should be denied? If so, please share.

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    Mute steven callaghan
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    Jan 8th 2014, 3:18 PM

    Good mary now why didnt you say the same thing to the saudi arabians a few years ago, You’re full of it no offence. You would not want to be gay living in that country with its record.

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    Mute BetAll.ie
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    Jan 9th 2014, 1:16 AM

    ”’McAleese added that she does not like the ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ attitude that the Church has towards gay people. She said she has also studied suicide among young Irish males, many of whom were gay Catholics”’

    -WHo cares if Mary mcAleese agrees with a quote from Jesus Christ .. not me, and her study into male suicides I would love to know her study methods, interview tecniques and how many of the populatiuon she conducted these rigorous tests upon ..
    Laughable if it wasn’t so transparent.

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    Mute Ken Huggard
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    Jan 9th 2014, 9:20 AM

    I’m a buy sexual , if I cant get it I buy it. Too many Irish get their knickers in a twist over religion and sex which religion almost destroyed. More fornication and less consubstantiation.

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    Mute BenBradlley
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:03 PM

    Do we really care what she thinks, suit her better to give up her grand big state pension, o she’s a ex President she would really know what she talking about, another Mary Robinson!

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 7:26 PM

    The majority of people respect her as one of our finest presidents. She is an exceptionally qualified woman who has the authority and knowledge to raise and discuss such issues.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Jan 8th 2014, 11:03 PM

    How on earth do you think she got elected as president?
    The woman, like Mary Robinson before her, is an extremely respected lawyer, she had ample qualifications and the grace to pull it off. Now, all of our public representatives take home too much cash in pensions, and ore retirement as well. That’s not something that is down to her exclusively. After all, she was merely a figurehead and a rubber stamp to the greedy pigs at the trough of Dáil Éireann. The president doesn’t have much power to stop what they do.

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Jan 9th 2014, 2:00 PM

    A friend of mine told me that in Peru there os an expression ‘God forgives sinners not scandel’ when we were talking about Catholicism and acceptance of homosexuality in Peru. Very apt in relation to many of the comments below.

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    Mute up3bs9LF
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    Jan 8th 2014, 5:53 PM

    testing

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    Mute DarthTempus
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    Jan 8th 2014, 6:51 PM

    One two

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    Mute Ruth Maxwell
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    Jan 9th 2014, 8:28 AM

    Think the word youre looking for is pedophile!

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