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Government set to approve plan to hold woman's 'life within the home' referendum in October

However, there is no consensus among the Oireachtas women’s caucus as to whether the wording should be deleted or amended.

JUSTICE MINISTER CHARLIE Flanagan will today seek Cabinet approval to hold a referendum on the reference to ‘women’s place in the home’ in the Irish Constitution.

Last September, the government announced that a referendum on whether to delete references to blasphemy, as well as references to a woman’s place in the home, from the Constitution would be held on 26 October.

The decision to hold the referendum around the issue of a “woman’s life within the home” fulfils a Programme for Government commitment and is part of a wider number of referenda which the government has committed to holding over the coming period.

Today’s Cabinet approval will be the next step in the process and will give the Justice Department permission to begin drafting a General Scheme for the removal of the reference from the Constitution.

The article itself states:

In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.
The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to neglect of their duties in the home.

The minister has already committed to initiate a Bill in the Dáil in the coming weeks for the blasphemy referendum, and it is expected he will do the same for the woman in the home vote. This will ensure a Referendum Commission can be established and the Constitution Amendment Bill can be considered by the Oireachtas.

The referendum will be held alongside the presidential election – if one is called.

The minister has decided to proceed with a proposal to delete the wording, despite concerns expressed by the Constitutional Convention and the Justice Department.

Instead of a complete repeal simpliciter (simply removing the reference), it had been suggested that the clause should be amended rather than deleted completely and that a gender-neutral clause should be included.

Fianna Fáil is supporting the government’s proposal for a straightforward deletion of the wording.

What the Oireachtas women’s group says

Yesterday, the Oireachtas women’s caucus met to discuss the proposals, following Minister for Children Katherine Zappone and Minister for Social Protection Regina Doherty arguing that the group’s input into the upcoming referendum would prove useful.

Green Party TD and chair of the Oireachtas women’s caucus Catherine Martin told TheJournal.ie that all members agreed that the clause should not remain in the Constitution in its current form.

However, she said there was no consensus amongst the women politicians as to whether the wording should be deleted or amended. She said there was a discussion about the importance of recognising those that give care in the home, with some arguing that government should insert caring in another section in the Constitution.

Martin said the “variety of views” held by the women’s caucus members were conveyed to the department ahead of today’s Cabinet meeting today.

Speaking in her Green Party TD role, Martin said that for her part she believed the government should amend rather than simply delete Article 41.2 of the Constitution.

Recognition for value of caring

She said proper time should be given for consultation on alternative wording.

“The proposed referendum presents an opportunity to recognise the intrinsic value and contribution of caring to our society which is what the Constitutional Convention voted for in the majority.

“Nobody could argue that the current provision is not sexist, and therefore needs to change. However, it would be a missed opportunity and a retrograde step to proceed with a simple deletion rather than amending the provision to recognise the importance of carers in our society,” she said.

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53 Comments
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    Mute Sean
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    Jul 25th 2018, 7:50 PM

    Knowing that you will be able to retire at 50 financially secure on a pension costing in the region of EUR1.5million must help on the gloomy days.

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    Mute Anthony Davoren
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:06 PM

    @Sean: you’re talking nonsense. U can’t retire at 50. And I’ve yet to see a guard a millionaire after retirement. The pension is of small concern after dealing with fatal accidents and suicides at your workplace. Can u even imagine facing those situations?

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    Mute Ronan Quinn
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:08 PM

    @Sean: When you’re not part of the solution Sean, you’re part of the problem. You sir are part of the problem. They pay into their pensions as do all in the economy. Having a pension isn’t any good when the quality of life listed above is as poor as is quoted.

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    Mute Albert Brennerman
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:14 PM

    @Sean:
    Yea Sean thats actually a total MYTH and a Lie that is never corrected by media.
    If a Garda so much as gets paid any form of PRSI after retiring she loses 33% of her pension. So at 50 presuming (someone joined at 20 )a Garda is getting maybe 400 euro take home but if they work any job they lose their PRSI component so you need all debt gone, children done with college etc and you could make it.
    And when they hit 66 after paying their pension they remove the PRSI component anyway and replace with OAP. So your pension now worth 26000 -12600. The Garda pension is worth about 13000 a yr topped up with social welfare because your forced to retire by 60…..
    Why are you forced to retire – >
    Because you don’t really want 50 year old Garda Pops it doesn’t suit the work so you want them to go. So you top up a 13000 euro pension with basically OAP until they die.
    Probably read up on it all available online but nobody likes to say it. Avg age of retirement 56 I think.

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    Mute Sean
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:17 PM

    @Anthony Davoren: I’d direct you to the first line of the GRA pension website. A member may retire at age 50 subject to having completed 30 years of service.
    https://gra.ie/information/pension-retirement/

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    Mute Sean
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:22 PM

    @Albert Brennerman: A Garda retiring at 60 with a €102,000 lump sum and €34,000 pension would have their pot valued at €1.8 million, including the spouse’s benefit. That makes the average retiring Garda a millionaire.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/public-sector-pensions-worth-millions-new-figures-show-1.3143604

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    Mute Ronan Quinn
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:37 PM

    @Sean: It does not make the average Garda a millionaire you fruit cake. You just said they get €34k p/a! Anyway, what relevance has your incorrect view on pensions got to do with the article is about mental health and PTSD.
    No amount of money would make life bearable if they’re suffering from PTSD.

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    Mute Colonel Grant
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:59 PM

    @Sean:

    Absolutely correct. Gardai, of all ranks who joined prior to April 2004, are entitled to retire at 50 years of age provided they have 30 years service. In addition some Gardai who joined prior to 1983, can retire at 50 with only 25 years, can retire on a slightly reduced pension, if they opted to do so. Gardai who joined after 2004 must work till 55 and serve 30 years. A Garda Sergeant now retiring at 50 receives a gratuity of just under 100,000 euro approx and annual pension of 34,000 approx.

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    Mute Sean
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    Jul 25th 2018, 9:01 PM

    @Ronan Quinn: An annuity pension that pays out €34K per annum would cost in the region of 26 times that to purchase. That brings you up to 884K. The 100K+ lump sum brings the total to over one million.

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    Mute Anthony Davoren
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    Jul 25th 2018, 9:24 PM

    @Sean: I think you’ll find that is not the case. It’s 55 now. Get the up to date facts. I like how you completely ignored my other point also. You are a troll

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    Mute jagmerc
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    Jul 25th 2018, 9:30 PM

    @Sean: ya but it does not mean that a person is a millionaire

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    Mute Eugene Comaskey
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    Jul 25th 2018, 9:55 PM

    @Sean: don’t know where ya got your figures from mister. The rank and file gardai are retiring on small pensions, and only a small number retire at 50 , they can stay till 60 , and a lot do so because they cannot afford to leave and live on half pay.

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    Mute Colonel Grant
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    Jul 25th 2018, 9:56 PM

    @Anthony Davoren:

    Incorrect again Anthony. It’s 55 for they guys who joined after 2004 (April). On the downside of course Gardai who joined prior to 1995 do not get any form on contributory OAP, as they,pay a very reduced rate of PRSI. This is why several Gardai retire in their early fifties, and take up alternative employment where they pay full PRSI and provided they make the required contributions, ten years I think, can then avail of a full OAP pension, in addition to their Garda pension.

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    Mute Sean
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    Jul 25th 2018, 10:47 PM

    @jagmerc: A millionaire is an individual whose net worth or wealth is equal to or exceeds one million units of currency. If a guards pension and lump sum exceed €1million euro when purchased on the open market that would make him / her a millionaire, yes. What part of this can’t you get?

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    Mute Sean
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    Jul 25th 2018, 10:49 PM

    @Eugene Comaskey: well I think it should be obvious where i got my figures from as I posted links to both the GRA and the Irish Times website.

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    Mute Sean
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    Jul 25th 2018, 10:55 PM

    @Anthony Davoren: I think you’ll find that you said guards can’t retire at 50. That statement was incorrect even if that perk has been revised to 55 for new entrants clearly it still applies to the majority of the current workforce. The other part of your comment about it being such a tough job I ignored but I certainly wouldn’t disagree with this sentiment.

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    Mute Brian Jp Kelington
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    Jul 25th 2018, 11:35 PM

    @Sean: its 58

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    Mute Albert Brennerman
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    Jul 26th 2018, 12:45 AM

    @Sean:
    Yes Sean Irish TImes knows more, and in austerity , sure no Agenda when that was written.

    Tell you what Sean you are so knowledgeable tell the readers here what is allowed into the calculation for a Garda pension ? Half Salary , Half Earnings per year ? Do they work loads of overtime in last few years ramping it up ? Please inform us.

    Please inform us this scam is continuing, where they all laugh to the bank and never attend car accidents, suicides, home assaults, lads puking on your clothes, kids in the middle of it, all that stuff that someone seems to look after but sure couldn’t be the rich Garda in the midst of all that, maybe its the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny.

    Also Do an FoI see how many Gardaí retire age 50.

    Hey OAP at 67 lives for 20 years walks away with 1/4 of a Mill. SCANDAL Them boys in Armani day in day out living the dream too. Hey Sean, tell the readers, Do Gardaí get that as well ?

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 26th 2018, 10:57 AM

    @Sean: Jesus Sean, every time you comment that number goes up. It was a million not so long ago

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:01 AM

    @Sean: so, that’s including their spouses pension allowance AND the public state pension that they get through prsi. Wow, a whole 34k!

    Huge money, huge after paying 7% of your pay including overtime for 30 years and including the 12k that everyone gets even if they never worked.

    So, all they have to do is live until about 90 to reap the rewards. Yeah, that’s common alright

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    Mute David B Kelly
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:00 PM

    @Anthony Davoren:

    Advanced Paramedics/ Paramedics and fire fighters face this type of scenario on a regular basis.
    At least in the guards and fire service you can retire at a decent age and one would hope in good health.
    Medics have to have 40 years completed before they are entitled to a pension. It’s a fair amount of your life .

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    Mute Canny Jem
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:41 PM

    I’m very surprised that this has not been recognised long before now. In fact, I wonder do new young raw recruits to An Garda Síochána, Fire Brigade and Ambulance Services receive any training in how to deal with whatever they find at traumatic RTA or fire scenes, like what one Garda said in the report above.
    Garda personnel, like Fire Brigade and Ambulance personnel, being the first responders at a traumatic scene can have life-long memory images that do give rise to the disorder of PTS.
    A severe case in point was when, a few years ago, first responders to a RTA had to face the scene of a speeding car that had had its roof sliced off after going under the back of a truck, and finding the six young occupants had been decapitated. A number of the Firemen and Gardaí who attended the scene had to leave their jobs because they couldn’t face such a scene again.
    My hat’s off to all brave first responders who have to face traumatic scenes – and clean up the bloody human mess. Somebody has to do that job.
    I really would like to know if Gardaí and other first responders receive any realistic Pre-Trauma scene training, and if it’s effective.

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:05 AM

    @Canny Jem: gardai do not get any welfare support. Paramedics and fire have mandatory follow ups within 24 hours.

    The gardai that dealt with that tragic incident in Donegal where the car went off the pier got no support

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    Mute Lisa Byrne
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    Jul 25th 2018, 7:42 PM

    This needs to be addressed before it turns into an even bigger scandal years down the line with lawsuits against the state.

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    Mute Siobhàn Malone
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:22 PM

    Paramedics are work beside the Gardai in most of these horrific scenes and situations.
    HSE paramedics are expected to work for 40 years to earn full pension which is an impossible task with only a fraction of personnel can achieve….

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:10 AM

    @Siobhàn Malone: paramedics don’t wrestle criminals and they get far more support services as they are mandatory within 24 hours.

    The article is about lack of support services not retirement age. Try to keep up

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    Mute David B Kelly
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:09 PM

    @Karl:

    Karl unsure where your info is coming from but there is absolutely no mandatory follow up from medics as you describe.
    So maybe it’s you that should be keeping up.

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 28th 2018, 6:47 PM

    @David B Kelly: Nas have follow ups with councillors as does dfb and at least 1 other fire service. Limerick I believe.

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    Mute Aidan Mitchell
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    Jul 25th 2018, 7:39 PM

    It’s the Government’s (and past governments) NATIONAL attitude…!

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    Mute Michael Curtin
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    Jul 25th 2018, 9:16 PM

    The Guards are little more than a gang.A gang with a pension plan.

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    Mute Jeff Nolan
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    Jul 26th 2018, 12:05 AM

    @Michael Curtin: You are whats wrong with this country. Begrudger.

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:06 AM

    @Michael Curtin: do join up and let us know all about it

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    Mute Maggie O'Sullivan
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    Jul 25th 2018, 8:17 PM

    Sounds like a terrible place to work. I’d leave and get another job.

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    Mute John Gallagher
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    Jul 26th 2018, 9:17 AM

    Massive respect for these people, give them the support they need!!!

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    Mute Denis McClean
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    Jul 26th 2018, 1:51 AM

    Not all, obviously, and there are seriously great and conscientious people out there but they are few and far between. Public Service, like politicians, have no accountability and either milk it or claim damages for a job that lesser humans would do minus the grief. It’s called entitlement..

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:07 AM

    @Denis McClean: the majority of public sector jobs come with plenty of oversight. Far more than the private sector

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 26th 2018, 11:08 AM

    Perhaps Sean and all the other begrudgers could let us know how their applications are getting on?

    It is afterall such an easy and overpaid job with fantastic perks and little drawbacks.

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    Mute Mark McDermott
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    Jul 26th 2018, 10:52 AM

    That’s not good reading, something needs to be done to support rank and file Garda. Everyone of the stories tells the same thing, no supports and management don’t care. Very very worrying.

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    Mute Barry Foster
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    Jul 26th 2018, 1:14 PM

    Gardai can retire on a full pension after serving just over 21 years. The majority of people working in the private sector do not have any pensions and couldn’t afford a similar defined benefit pension in their wildest dreams Commission of enquiry years ago said1500 Gardai needed to be removed from clerical duties in Dublin and returned to normal.policing …..to date 43 Gardai reassigned – keep up the good work lads lol

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 28th 2018, 6:49 PM

    @Barry Foster: 21 years? Jesus, better explain how to all those fools going 30 so

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    Mute Brian O Sullivan
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    Jul 27th 2018, 7:19 PM

    When I was a child (nearly 50 years ago)I was taught to trust and respect all Gardai. My many life experiences across various contexts sharply contrasts with that idea. They know what they are signing up for. Prioritising and taking responsibility for one’s own self care is a good starting point along with the idea that PTSD is a normal response to certain environments. It is the fire services and paramedics that do the work on scene. Gardai are usually the last to arrive…

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    Mute Karl
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    Jul 28th 2018, 6:52 PM

    @Brian O Sullivan: considering the fact that in many counties dialing 999 / 112 gets the gardai and then they have to notify the retained fire crew, I think you are talking rubbish.

    But then I don’t know any paramedic or hosefairy that begrudges the gardai anymore then gardai begrudge back

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