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Expect your first water bill in late 2014, says Phil Hogan

Environment minister couldn’t say how much it will cost consumers, but said a standing charge would be involved.

MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT Phil Hogan today insisted that the water charge system would be completely publicly owned, despite government plans to privatise certain state assets.

Yesterday, the government announced the creation of a new state-owned subsidiary of Bord Gáis Éireann called Irish Water which will oversee the delivery of water services.

Speaking to the Newstalk Breakfast programme, Hogan said that Irish Water will be fully publicly owned even though part of its Bord Gáis are being sold. The government will introduce “the necessary legislation” next year to ensure this, he said.

The minister also said that people will not be charged for the installation of the new water meters, but added that consumers will face a standing charge akin to other services such as electricity and gas supplies.

“There will be no charge to any customer with regard to the installation of meters,” he said, adding that he expects the first water charges to be made in late 2014: “By the end of 2014, there will be a bill coming in the door.”

However, he did not specify what those charges could cost consumers, saying that a number of different issues and concerns would be brought up when the negotiations over the charges begin between the regulator and Irish Water.

Independent TD Stephen Donnelly criticised the introduction of the metering system on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, saying that “there’s no inherent value to suddenly having 1.5 million water meters outside people’s houses.”

“It has this feel to me of some twit in the IMF or the ECB, when they got control of Ireland, saying – way back in my university years my microeconomics tells me that you charge for consumption and that leads to a better outcome, and sure let’s do that to the Irish while we control their country.”

He said that the IMF has a “shaky track record” of implementing plans which in theory make sense, but which in practice are the wrong things to do during difficult economic periods.

Donnelly described the charge as a ‘tax’ and said that people had been paying for water for decades, and criticised the government’s decision to run Irish Water under Bord Gáis without putting the service out to tender.

Opposition parties have accused the government of keeping people in the dark over the introduction of the new charges by failing to provide enough information on the projected cost to consumers.

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98 Comments
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    Mute Jack Dermody
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:21 AM

    Would prefer the to expect Mr Hogan out of a job by the end of the year…

    104
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    Mute Ryan oneill
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:28 AM

    That is the sound of inevitability….

    49
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    Mute HI SPRUIKER
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:10 PM

    The Fine Gael and Labour Government.

    The Eurobankers very own Debt Collection Agency.

    Put in place to collect false Ponzi Debt from the Irish people.

    Filthy!!

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    Mute HI SPRUIKER
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:12 PM

    Nobody trusts their Banker.

    Except for the Irish Government.

    A bunch of Jobsworth,Toothless, Schoolteachers.

    32
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    Mute Deborah McCarthy
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:24 AM

    Great i’ve a year to get out if this country before i’m taxed for breathing! !!

    77
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    Mute Ryan oneill
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:29 AM

    That Deborah is my same line of thinking.!! Sad isn’t it…

    55
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    Mute Jack Dermody
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:32 AM

    Well are breathing more than everyone else?

    We need to meter your breathing and charge you if you are wasting air….

    Deborah stop giving Hogan any ideas….

    48
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Apr 18th 2012, 11:23 AM

    Or ye could stay and fight (metaphorically) for a country where society comes before the interests paying off fake debts of financial institutions. We could do it if we stick together. :)

    50
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    Mute Gavin Lawlor
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:22 AM

    Maybe if they stop poisoning people by putting the toxic chemical fluoride in our water I might think about paying for it. At the moment it’s about as good value as our overpaid politicians.

    62
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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 2:29 PM

    Nonsense. There isn’t a shred of evidence that Fluoride in water is bad for you. It has a very beneficial effect on children’s teeth. Anti-Fluoride people are in the same league as UFO nuts.

    7
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    Mute Gavin Lawlor
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    Apr 18th 2012, 2:54 PM

    Then why does 98% of Europe not do it anymore and why does it state on a tube of toothpaste to seek medical help if fluoride is ingested? There’s little evidence as there’s been little proper research but I would like to see this research carried out and if it proves there’s no adverse effects then well and good but there’s no need for it with decent toothpaste, toothbrushes & dentists abundant these days. I’d rather not take the chance let alone pay for it. UFO nut? No.

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    Mute Ed Kavanagh
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    Apr 18th 2012, 3:20 PM

    William, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and people like you that believe everything the guberment tell them are the most dangerous thing, because thats the road to concentration camps etc. Don’t be lazy and do some research. The world is at your fingertips where you will see countless of water providers are removing toxic flouride from the water supply every month. At very least go read your toothpaste tube and add 1 plus 1. Very simple.

    14
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    Mute Sandra Whelton
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    Apr 19th 2012, 12:52 AM

    I am not out to promote this particular site but the info on fluoridation health and environmental risk factors are well documented http://www.enviro.ie/Summary_Report_Fluoridation.pdf this report is an eye opener. Why is fluoride still being added to our water supply? And now to add insult to injury we are being asked to pay for this? Yet another ever increasing charge for sub standard, inefficient and in this case toxic supply.
    The legislation enacting mandatory water fluoridation in Ireland predates Ireland joining the European Union and currently violates over thirty existing EU Directives for consumer safety, food safety, environment and habitat protection. Apart form Ireland certain parts of the Britain remain the only other locations within Europe where water fluoridation continues despite the recent recommendations of scientific committees for consumer safety established by the European Commission. It is apparent that this continues in violation of International law, European law and National Regulations for environmental protection.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 9:41 AM

    Sandra, that web site you referred to was an individual’s business web site! Maybe you can send us a link from a medical or dental web site?

    Most of Europe doesn’t fluoridate because they drink bottled water. France adds Fluoride to salt for the same purpose. Are they operating illegally?

    Why pick Europe? Most of the US and Canada and Australia Fluoridates. Chile & Brazil does. New Zealand does. Your other claims of violation of laws are nonsense. I have “researched” water fluoridation and all medical, dental and scientific bodies support it and state that there are no dangers IN THE DOSES THAT ARE used. Dose is critical. While eating a bar of soap or a tube of toothpaste would make you sick a miniscule piece would not, same with fluoridate. You can die from drinking too much water. People suffer from and can die from tooth decay and infection. Fluoride helps prevent tooth decay particularly in children and particularly the children of poor people. As I said opposition to water fluoridation is as nutty as claiming you’ve been abducted by aliens, it has no basis in fact.

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    Mute Gavin Lawlor
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    Apr 19th 2012, 10:19 AM

    A partial report from the Harvard study, published in 2006, found that exposure to higher levels of fluoride in drinking water was linked to a higher risk of osteosarcoma in boys but not in girls. However, researchers linked to the study noted that early results from a second part of the study did not appear to match those of the report. They therefore advised caution in interpreting the report until the full results of the study become available. The full study has not yet been published.

    Why hasn’t it been published? This is from Harvard and its one of the most recent studies despite dating back 6 years. Do you think they’re all UFO nuts too?

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 10:25 AM

    Gavin, is that the best you can come up with? An unpublished report is utterly irrelevant. To get published in a good journal you must pass peer review. This paper hasn’t. Have a read of this http://www.skepdic.com/fluoridation.html

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    Mute Gavin Lawlor
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    Apr 19th 2012, 11:13 AM

    The skeptics dictionary? Please. Yes this article, if its to be taken seriously, serves well your point that there are plenty of alarmists and nut cases out there but extremism works in both ways and only serves to ridicule the issue. We’re not all claiming that the government are trying to turn us into zombies. There are plenty of intelligent people concerned about this issue and I don’t think the skeptics dictionary will put their minds at ease.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 12:19 PM

    Gavin, there are not intelligent, educated, scientifically trained, medically trained professionals concerned about water fluoridation. There are people who know nothing about the topic and those conspiracy theory nuts who think that the Jews blew up the World Trade Centre. Which group are you in?

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    Mute Gavin Lawlor
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    Apr 19th 2012, 2:14 PM

    I think Jewish zombie aliens are polluting Irish water with fluoride to brainwash us all so that no questions will ever be asked about anything again but I’m not intelligent or educated enough to pick a group so you can do that William.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 2:34 PM

    I’ve answered all your queries Gavin and gave you something to think about. I’ve refuted the points you made and you come back with generalisations.

    You can decide if you join the ranks of the conspiracy nuts (in the case of fluoridation they think that the fluoride is added to water to dump waste products from la la la la somewhere or other, Big Pharma probably) or you can decide to learn about these things from proper scientific sources. Your decision. Are you to be a Jim Corr or say a Dara O’Briain?

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    Mute Ed Kavanagh
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    Apr 19th 2012, 2:42 PM

    William it says it on the tube. Not youtube. Your tooghpaste tube. You can read any website you want but the manufacturer is telling you straight. Do not ingest fluoride because it’s toxic. It says rinse thoroughly. Read it on the tube. So if you think drinking it everyday is in somehow good for your teeth when you brush it on anyway then you are just burying your head in the sand. You can hide this fact. Its a toxic substance. Its not not toxic because it diluted. No conspiracy. Just fact.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 3:37 PM

    Ed, you obviously were referring to yourself with the comment, “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”.

    Please quote the exact words on your tooth paste tube and I’ll tell you why they are there and what they mean. You hardly think eating a whole tube of tooth paste, bar of soap, bottle of Radox, package of Dishwasher Powder or otherwise is good for you? On the other hand the amount of fluoride in a litre of tap water is so small that it is totally harmless. It’s about .7 milligrams which is less than 1/1,000 of a gram or 1,000,000 of a kilogram i.e. ONE MILLIONTH of a Kilogram, too small to see. Fluoride occurs naturally in water, higher in some places and lower in others. You do know there’s Chlorine in your water too? Why are you not worried about that? There’s also Dihydrogen Monoxide which can kill in large doses.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 3:45 PM

    PS Here’s a data sheet on Dihydrogen Monoxide:

    it’s called “hydroxyl acid”, the substance is the major component of acid rain.
    contributes to the “greenhouse effect”.
    may cause severe burns.
    is fatal if inhaled.
    contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
    accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
    may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
    has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

    Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:
    as an industrial solvent and coolant.
    in nuclear power plants.
    in the production of Styrofoam.
    as a fire retardant.
    in many forms of cruel animal research.
    in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
    as an additive in certain “junk-foods” and other food products.

    1
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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 3:50 PM

    PS From the National Cancer Institute in the US

    http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/fluoridated-water

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    Mute Ed Kavanagh
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    Apr 19th 2012, 3:54 PM

    The one I have here says “Do not swallow” Obviously because it so beneficial to ingest and “Rinse thoroughly” It also says that children under six should have adult supervision and use pea size amount also because its harmless in the same way as leaving kids with and Bulldog or Stanley blade is good for them. So not to be too paranoid about it, but I would hazard a guess on that evidence alone that its bad for you to ingest everyday. Because its a toxic substance. And no it doesn’t matter how much you take. Its toxic. So you keep drinking away coz the government says its OK. Don’t ever say you wern’t warned. And if you get the balls to use your own mind then research what fluoride was used for in prison camps but you will say its a I conspiracy..I will keep drinking my crystal clean filtered h2o the way god intended it to be and when I want medication I will go to the doctor and request it with my own free will.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 5:16 PM

    Ed, I’ve already pointed out that soap isn’t good to eat. A whole tube of toothpaste isn’t dangerous because it’s got fluoride, it’s because it’s got soapy stuff! You say, “ I would hazard a guess on that evidence alone that its bad for you to ingest everyday”. But your uneducated guess hardly stacks up to nearly 100 years of fluoridation research, does it?

    All substances are toxic. It’s the dose that counts. Drinking water that’s fluoridated is not dangerous. I’ve referred you to medical related web sites that clearly state that. You better not live in Essex because the water there has enough natural fluoridation that it doesn’t need fluoridation.

    Funny but filtered or distilled pure water is actually bad for you. The filtration takes out other minerals you need.

    PS There’s no god so god didn’t intend anything and even if he exists why did he put fluoride in all water anyway, just not enough in most?

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    Mute jrbmc
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:38 AM

    Expect to be out of a job by the end of 2014 if not sooner Hogan you knob-end

    60
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    Mute Deborah McCarthy
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:39 AM

    When will the government listen to the people who sadly voted these eijits in. ….the only thing changing is the new ways to tax you for trying to work and keep a roof (albeit a worthless one) over your families head. I’ve had enough stick your water charge with your property tax and sing for it. ..if hundreds of thousands of ppl can’t afford their mortgages how can they afford these extra charges? ?????

    51
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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 8:54 PM

    Water Charges were always on the table, regardless of who was brought into power. We knew this before the election.

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    Mute Stephen Maher
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:30 AM

    Believe me, the water will go the same way as the bins did: into private ownership in fairly short order.
    The rate payed will go through the roof, the companies will get the profits, the government will get away with it, and the public will get it right up the backside (yet again!).

    50
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Apr 18th 2012, 11:25 AM

    Thatcherism is not dead. It’s alive and kicking in Fine Gael.

    53
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    Mute Chopper
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:25 PM

    @Réada, whatever happend to the UCC Young Fine Gael motion to make Thatcher an honorary member? At the time I couldn’t believe that they would even think of proposing such a thing, but then you see how Fine Gael proper behave!

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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Apr 18th 2012, 1:15 PM

    Chopper. Fine Gael are the Irish branch of the Tory Party and there’s a few there who will probably call for a state holiday when Thatcher dies. How anyone voted FG is beyond me. I’d rather chop my voting hand off! :)

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 2:32 PM

    Why shouldn’t water be privatised? It’s current supply is famously inefficient. Look at the huge benefit we got when the Aer Lingus monopoly was broken. Anything government run is a disaster.

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    Mute Stephen Maher
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    Apr 18th 2012, 3:46 PM

    Ironic that the economic misery being visited upon us had its roots in the madcap policies of Reagan and that detestable witch Thatcher, yet the chimpanzees running things over here are using their Friedman model of strangulation economics to try to fix it.
    Personally I don’t think there’s much interest in the EU in fixing Ireland at all. Our country has become one big open-air economic experiment into seeing how much guff a country will take (and for how long) before it cracks and starts kicking back a bit.
    Unfortunately, I think we’re in for a lot more of this shite in the next 10 years.

    9
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    Mute jimbo
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:27 AM

    Can wait to use my shredder on it..

    41
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    Mute Steve Jackman
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:31 AM

    Good lad Jimbo, good lad.

    30
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    Mute joseph mcgee
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    Apr 18th 2012, 1:19 PM

    Good man jimbo!
    Well done steve!

    11
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    Mute Too Trueleft
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:48 AM

    Can you send it sooner please bullyboy Hogan? I’m starting to run out of loo roll. p.s. Will you print it on two ply if it’s not too much trouble? Cheers!

    38
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    Mute phantom duck Nibbler
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:38 AM

    expect the #irishrevolution mr hogan

    37
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    Mute Tom Kiely
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:39 AM

    Look to the skies people look to the skies……..wait and see 2015 it will be against the law to gather rain water or out will be subject to local authority inspection witch will carry a charge of course.

    37
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    Mute John
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:52 AM

    Phil Hogan expects to be still in office in 2014?! LMAO!

    35
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    Mute Réada Quinn
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    Apr 18th 2012, 11:29 AM

    That’s what I was thinking John. I’ll give them one more budget of savage cuts. They won’t touch their core voters though. No chance of introducing a 3rd tax rate. Well not unless Troika tell them. Enda Kenny was elected to do their bidding, he just forgot to tell the electorate!

    31
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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 8:57 PM

    If polling is correct, or even partly correct, his party will be. Id expect Kilkenny/Carlow to still give him a strong mandate also. Again, before they were elected we knew how they would be doing a tax. Bar the Household tax, which was introduced poorly and looks set to be reformed.

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    Mute Martin Smith
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    Apr 18th 2012, 11:47 AM

    Wont be long after the first bill hits the letter box and the energy regulator will put the prices up.This is the same regulator who is suppose to represent the public when bord gais and the esb look for their regular price increases.Yet every year sactions price increase in double figures.

    So every september we can look forward to a high price increase in water due to the high price for oil, as it requires energy to clean and supply it,then there is the pay offs to the local authorities for handing over responsibility to provide water,then there is the inevital bill that will follow on for the disposing of .treating of waste wate…The money in the national pension fund will be exhausted.We will probaly have a seperate CEO recieve another obscence salary as is the norm in the semi state bodies…Cause we do have to attract the best talent out there to sit on their arse for 52 weeks of the year doing nothing except look for price increases.

    Anybody who believes this or any government will repay the loan to the national pension fund is deluding themselves..People forget that when rates were abolished vat was introduced in its place.

    Not to worry we can always instal rain barrels and collect our own untreated water….no difference to the water that has been delivered to some regions in the country…who remembers pictures on tv of people in galway purchasing bottled water… The IMF guinea pig continues to comply

    30
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    Mute Jason Doyle
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:26 AM

    Thats okay, sure aint the world coming to an end this year?

    30
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    Mute Dermot Mc Loughlin
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:39 AM

    Shush lad…..Hogan might see this and we’ll be getting the bill next tuesday and then we can all go into oblivion assured that we done our best to pay this unmanageable bankers debt :P

    32
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    Mute Live Wire
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    Apr 18th 2012, 1:22 PM

    Grammar lesson of the day
    Hogan, go f**k yourself
    FG Lab. Go f**k yourselves
    IMF/EU , go and f**k off

    29
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    Mute mike
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:30 AM

    This will apply to all people on public water supplies………….Oh no wait if you in a apartment it will no apply. As was report on RTE Prime Time. So some people will pay and other will not. Perfect system.

    29
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    Mute Chopper
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:22 PM

    According to Fergus O’Dowd (on some radio station yesterday), it does apply to apartments, it’s just that they won’t be initially individually metered; the apartment block will be, and apartment complex Management Companies/Landlord will be given the task of collecting the charge. It’s up to the Management Companies how they charge each flat – equal shares or they can install their own meters… Supposedly, they can’t add to the bill, but what do you want to be bet on that?

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:38 PM

    Standing charge because of the difficulties installing meters in such buildings. Temporary measure I think

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    Mute B7584
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    Apr 18th 2012, 5:43 PM

    How will it not apply to apartments? It was just said on newstalk that there will be one meter for apartments and everyone pays based on that, doesnt seem fair if theres a family of 4 in one apartment vs 1 person in an apartment.
    Any other info on this?

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 8:53 PM

    News to me re: one meter for everyone in an apartment block. I thought it was a standing charge. But I agree that this proposal seems unfair and I am unsure how the complex management can make it fairer.

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    Mute B7584
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    Apr 18th 2012, 9:21 PM

    Like everything in this country, nothing has been thought through one iota.
    Being an apartment owner my biggest worry is what management companies will decide to charge for their fees on top of a property tax from the government.
    I currently pay €1500 PM fees, add another €400-600 on top of that in a property tax and im really going to struggle.

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 11:48 PM

    I think what people are forgetting here is that they haven’t all the details. They have announced the news of charges and the body who will be in charge of such. They addressed some basic questions they had answers for. The rest is to be confirmed before the introduction of charges and the full roll out. Its early days in the project so you cant knock it as if it was completed already.

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    Mute Chris Bewildered
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    Apr 18th 2012, 11:40 AM

    I live in hope to see Hogan out on his ear and then I’ll die a happy man.

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    Mute Austin Gannon
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:21 AM

    Wonder how this affects people who are in group water schemes. Will they have to pay this on top of their current charges or what’s the story going to be?

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    Mute mike
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:27 AM

    This only applie to people on public water.

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    Mute Austin Gannon
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:44 AM

    Thats what I thought all right Mike!!

    Thanks

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    Mute Ann Illing
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    Apr 18th 2012, 3:09 PM

    Apparently group schemes and private wells wont have to pay. And rightly so.

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    Mute Deborah McCarthy
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:47 AM

    How are ppl agreeing with this. ….it must be great to have disposable income! !!

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    Mute mike
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:39 AM

    The picture abve is water from a site that is been fracked.

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    Mute Tom Kiely
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:46 AM

    So?

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    Mute Alan Bolger
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    Apr 18th 2012, 1:09 PM

    Must be hard trying to get a business off the ground in this austerity climate. Wages are coming down, taxes, vat, oil, gas and petrol are all shooting up. The household charge is in and now water charges are being introduced. How is anyone going to be able to afford any sort of luxuries or even a half decent night out to get the economy going. All this going on and still no one prosecuted in the courts for all the recklessness and incompetence of our politicians, senators, councillors and bankers. Celtic tiger is well extinct now.

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    Mute Tom Mulligan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 1:11 PM

    Is just me or does he always like smug when the camera is on him.
    €300 . €40.00 for ten years ,privitsed ,state owned ,jesus when is the facts gong to come out.
    Wonder did he pay his property tax in Portugal yet.
    Cant wait until he goes.

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    Mute Rita Cahill
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    Apr 18th 2012, 2:25 PM

    How dare Enda kenny, threatening people that if they don’t pay their water charge that they will be cut off from their free supply of water, you are a coward, you and phil hogan you are both criminals in the enterprise called Government ” signed up to the Universal Declaration of human rights. You have just admitted to impose punishment of death to all of us who don’t comply with your rules to pay out the bankers will, what else is deprivation of water, I would rather die than give you or EU any cent, we would all rather die than give you a red cent,
    Rita cahill

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 9:02 PM

    If you don’t pay for your basic bills your cut off. Your basic bills don’t give you free usage either for a period. Whats the point in water charges being introduced if people can just decided not to pay? If you manage your usage correctly, you may not have to pay and if you do your bill should be low.

    In relation to “we would all rather die than give you a red cent” – I wouldn’t. Nor would my friends or family that I spoke with. So not everyone. In saying that, its very dramatic to suggest you would prefer not to live than be taxed. This is only a second tax being introduced anyway, and is fairer than the first and gives you free water for a bit. You decide how much you use.

    But to suggest you and everyone else would prefer to die is a stupid comment. We have such a high suicide rate in this country and I think its inappropriate to talk about it so casually. By all means object to the tax, be furious, give out, protest etc. as you have every right – but lets not get to extreme.

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    Mute Creatively Maladjusted
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:38 PM

    Kevin
    Difference is I can survive without electricity, gas, telephone or broadband, but not… at all… without water. The other services enhance my life, water gives life.
    Also what you say is false. Even if I’m not using any water for a property I’ll be charged the standing of €40 per year. By the way, it is also not comparable with the Group Water Scheme because they are run and owned by the community, with a once off installation charge (AFAIK) and an ample water usage allowance. Hogan & the government have told us they need to do this to raise money…. big difference!

    Make no mistake. This is wholly a revenue raising exercise.

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 12:24 AM

    Most of us cant survive without electricity. If you cant afford it and its cut off – many people struggle big time. Electricity is everywhere in our house and is very much an essential. While its not as essential as water – your getting a free allocation, which you don’t get with electricity. One would imagine the rates after that wont be massive, you will be given period to pay and if your struggling I am sure they will have plans setup to accommodate just that (like the electricity providers have) and they wont cut you of so quickly and will work with you and not against you.

    People seem to have this fear that they will be using massive quantities of water and they cant reduce it. That if they cant afford it, their screwed and nobody will help them and will be instantly cut off. It may mean cutting back of luxuries for a bit and seeking help from Irish Water but lets not get ahead of ourselves just yet.

    Of course its a revenue raising exercise. How else are we to fill the gap and fix the problems with our water supply? Its a tax on water – not a pretend tax on water to go on other government services. Whatever is raised must be used on the water supply.

    If the water supply is still shit several years down the line and people complain – Irish Water are going to point out their not getting the money, the government will be under pressure to say why (never mind say why its not improving!) and if they turn around and admit it was just a tax for our debt their will be all out murder.

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    Mute Creatively Maladjusted
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    Apr 19th 2012, 11:31 AM

    struggle is not the same as survive.
    When I lived in a town, my hob, oven and kettle all made me highly dependant on electricity, but I could survive, with great discomfort, were it to be switched off. Without water, I cannot. survive.

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    Mute Thats So Grodie
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:50 AM

    So can I pump water into the system to make money money money the same way you can grid tie a wind turbine to the power lines?

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    Mute Thats So Grodie
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:50 AM

    I demand answers

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    Mute Donal O'Shea
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:07 PM

    What’s with the pic of a glass of frog spawn?

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    Mute Angela Barrett
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    Apr 18th 2012, 4:17 PM

    I wouldnt mind too much paying for the water if it was drinkable. Im on a public supply and anytime i pour a glass of water it smells like im about to drink a glass of bleach. You just couldntt drink it, its absolutly disgusting and i will refuse to pay for it

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 9:03 PM

    The whole point of a water charge is to fix this and many other problems with our shambolic water supply. Refusing to pay wont fix the problem you have.

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    Mute Angela Barrett
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:28 PM

    @kevin. Would u pay for a bad pint? or would u give it back, expect the owner to clean the lines and then hand u out your perfect pint that u are more than happy to pay for. When mr Hogan can provide me with perfect water, i will pay him. Why doesn’t he use the reserve pension fund to fix our water system, im sure he would have a lot less controversy following him re meters etc if he did.

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 12:09 AM

    Angela; There are cases where you could argue the opposite. Their were companies involved in road building who had strikes because the government didn’t pay them so they couldn’t pay for suppliers or staff. The same can be said for some FAS Schemes that are currently suspended – FAS wants the state to pay up front before it will do the work, because it cant afford it without the money.

    The money has to come from somewhere to fix the problem. Plus, water quality isn’t a massive problem. Take another big hefty loan out? Than introduce charges and hope the charges be enough to meet the repayment demands? Its a big risk.

    This way, with both state funding and funding from the taxpayer through usage and standard rates – Irish Water gets to start fixing all the problems, improving our supply and providing a proper service. It will take time, of course. But there is no other solution.

    Remember, we all pay our taxes. Do you refuse to pay Motor Tax because many roads have potholes or are in poor condition? Do you refuse to pay your taxes full stop because a service from the state is poor? The taxes we all grew up with people get on with and pay. Since the formation of the state and introduction of taxes we have been “paying as we go”. For decades we paid the state well before a service was fully there. We continue to pay it for the upkeep and expansion. This is what a tax is about.

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    Mute Lamb
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    Apr 19th 2012, 7:41 AM

    If we are paying for water going forward, can someone tell me if we can sue the government for shortages for problems with the water supply?

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    Mute Creatively Maladjusted
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    Apr 18th 2012, 2:08 PM

    Well, I for one am getting more confused about this.
    What happened the €20 for 20 years, thing they were talking about for water meter installation?
    That is the price of the meter PLUS interest on the loan from the Pension Reserve fund!

    When they say they won’t privatise the water *system* – do they mean the pipes network, or are they including the services charge?
    I strongly doubt that Fine Gael do not want it privatised – they want to privatise every other thing! They have broken election pledges severely, why should anyone trust what they say? I wonder if they’d allow us to enshrine that in a referendum when we’re rejecting the TFEU and Fiscal Compact ones?

    Are Labour supporting this craziness?

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    Mute Chris lynch
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    Apr 18th 2012, 2:30 PM

    Of Course labour will be supporting this. Just like the Greens and the PD they will go along with government right until the point that Labour will be no more – then they will abandon ship much like the greens.

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    Mute Creatively Maladjusted
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    Apr 18th 2012, 5:10 PM

    I guess they will Chris.
    I just find it hard to believe that the less-right-wing parties have a kamikaze style of government. In fairness to the PDs they managed to get their right-wing agenda in, which contributed massively to the bubble bursting. It doesn’t seem to me like Greens or Labour have done much agenda driving at all.
    It’s *really* hard to get any socially balanced policies voted in when the parties promoting them keep annihilating themselves.

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 9:07 PM

    Everything is speculation – depending who you listen to or what paper you read, the rate is different. The government haven’t even figured this part out yet as its early days.

    As for rejecting treaties – according to polls, we seem in favour of it. I don’t think the government parties wish to privatize everything, but some of what they are suggesting does make sense.

    The Water Charges was unanimously backed – so yes, Labour are.

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    Mute Creatively Maladjusted
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    Apr 18th 2012, 10:27 PM

    I wouldn’t be too sure about Labour yet Kevin. I sense rumblings in the back benches, no water charges was part of their manifesto.
    Fair point, the polls look as if referendum may be passed, but it’s very early days. As far as I know Lisbon v1.0 looked like it would pass first too. I’m hoping that the same situation will occur here. I can’t really understand why the majority of people would want to enshrine a transfer of Fiscal control to Europe into our constitution.

    As for privatising, perhaps I should have said, “practically everything”. I find it abhorrent to refer to water as a commodity – a marketable product – as Enda has called it. To me that shows a neolib mindset. They are…. yet again…. asking us to put or trust in a regulator!

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 12:00 AM

    This has been on the cards for a long time and is in the programme for government. Its been actively in the news for nearly a week. Id assume disquiet would have occurred by now.

    Its a coalition – what was in both parties manifestos goes out the window and they come to a new agreement. Some of their wishes were abandoned. No party gets it all their way and no party gets to implement the polices they may wish, or how they wish, if they are in a coalition. This is one of the sticks some people poke the government parties with about abandoning their ideas – what do you expect! Its not workable otherwise!

    I suppose we lost a lot of our independence for the greater good, since we joined Europe. No more than any other european country. The idea behind this treaty is to try prevent a fiasco where we go out of control on our spending and cause another crisis – each country cant have it their own way if they wish to work within the European Body. Their has to be a structure they all flow from to avoid problems like we have seen in this crisis. Good for Europe but bad for Ireland? Well Europe has been extremely good to Ireland. This may prevent another recession or massive debt to Ireland if Europe steps in. While their are bad points – what doesn’t have both good and bad points? We have to weigh up the pros and cons. Blindly follow Europe? Right now, for Ireland and how they tell us to run our country – its their money, so we kinda have to. For the treaty? Big risk – will Europe exclude us like they say, for future bailouts, if we say no or will we be ok? Nobody knows for sure. A lot of speculation but is monitoring our finances that big of a deal anyway?

    Re; Regulator trust. Not every regulator let us down in the last few years. Perhaps the Energy regulator will do us good here. Have to wait and see I suppose.

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    Mute John McSweeney
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:17 PM

    What’s with the slime water picture???

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    Mute Ryan oneill
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:35 PM

    That’s what some people are expected to pay for!!!

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    Mute Anna Marie Dowdican
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:35 PM

    A close up shot of water running into glass me thinks..? Our allowance for the day by 2014!

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    Mute Sean Mc Avinue
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    Apr 18th 2012, 1:30 PM

    If their so easy to install wouldn’t they be as easy to remove. Assuming the average price is around the €300. Wouldn’t they be a market for burglars.

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    Mute Axel O Connell
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    Apr 18th 2012, 12:54 PM

    Are they going to charge for waste water also. If so will that mean a second meter at €40 a year for 20 years.

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    Mute Rita Cahill
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    Apr 18th 2012, 5:52 PM

    Probably so that they will charge us for extra waste water meter, that’s if we don’t die from dehydration first. Rita

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    Mute Chris lynch
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    Apr 18th 2012, 1:31 PM

    Has anything been said about house that already have meters installed?

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 18th 2012, 9:08 PM

    If your on a private scheme I think it stays that way but if its for your own use and not being charged – it wont be used by Irish Water. They will use their own one, for obvious reasons.

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    Mute mcbab
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    Apr 18th 2012, 7:05 PM

    My goodness! Mary loo must have had some hot sun on her Easter holidays !! Would take more than water to wash that tan off ! See RTE 6 o’clock news

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    Mute censored
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    Apr 18th 2012, 6:59 PM

    Expect my first payment when hell freezes over

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    Mute superbaz!
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    Apr 19th 2012, 4:40 PM

    @Kevin O’Sullivan you seem VERY passionate about this tax coming in. And seem to have days/weeks to write on the pros of these taxes. Are you a junior FG or Labour poster boy? Do you even own a house you look about 18!

    This tax is coming in as the government is unwilling to find better ways of raising the money required, through things like an upper class tax/third tax level, increasing existing income taxes, lowering unemployment benifit and coming to terms with the massive fraud in benifits, cut backs to the number of civil servants and cutting civil servant wages on the higher salarys at the very least! But the government fears backlash on all of these especially the last one.

    This is NOT a tax to improve water, this is a tax to bail out bank debt and for the government to not have to manage yet another vital role they have on an island which is too small to be competitive in on the open market, the same as its not competitive with heat or power. YET it will be sold off in a few years without any notice to the public, like the bin service was. And then forget a few euro per year. It will be 100s or 1000s of euro.

    Its already apparent to those who have seen the household tax go from just pay the 100 euro to, actually could be 1000 next year depending on where you live… people are not as stupid as you give them credit for.

    Take your pro coalition rubbish and drink it… since you apparently have a hayday drinking if your profile pic is anything to go by. The rest of us cant afford to go the pub that must be so nice for you!! Money to burn no wonder your pro new taxes!

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    Mute Rita Cahill
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    Apr 18th 2012, 9:18 PM

    i was not talking suicide, i was merely stating the democracy Qoute to explaing like James connoly stud up and died for his country in Ireland, the point is i will never givemoney and waste it on bankers bailouts, i would rather die without water than give the money to them, I believe in giving to the needy first rather than the Euro Banks, it is not for the Benefit of Our Country, Rita

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    Mute Kevin O'Sullivan
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    Apr 19th 2012, 12:29 AM

    Eh? You keep talking about death. So if your not going to kill yourself – do you think the state will kill you instead? Death over a bloody tax? Your death has nothing to do with democracy. Nor would it make the slightest difference. Democracy is giving the people the power to vote for the party they want in government. We get that every four years. If people are unhappy, they will throw them out and elect someone who will give you the magical world with no taxes and no debt. Free for all.

    As I said, this tax is for improving and fixing our water supply. We are not the only country that has such a tax, even our neighbours have it. Even some people in Ireland have it, both residential and business. They seem to be surviving okay. It is not a tax to deal with the debt left by Fianna Fail, which one way or another, needs to be addressed and a very clear majority was put into government to do just that. It is very much in our country’s benefit to get it sorted.

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    Mute Declan Waugh
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    May 21st 2012, 11:39 PM

    William Grogin stated “there are not intelligent, educated, scientifically trained, medically trained professionals concerned about water fluoridation. There are people who know nothing about the topic and those conspiracy theory nuts who think that the Jews blew up the World Trade Centre. Which group are you in?”

    There are 14 nobel laureates in medicine and chemistry who have all campaigned to end water fluoridation on human health grounds. In addition leading academics including medical and scientific professors from the worlds top universities have all signed a petition to ban water fluoridation.

    Willian Grogin obviously hasn’t a clue what he is talking about and belongs in the category that will believe anything that he is told regardless of the scientific evidence. By the way Harvard did publish in a peer reviewed cancer research journal that children were at a sevenfold increase of getting Osteosarcoma and the National research council of the united states of america did find that fluoride effects the thyroid gland and that a sub group of the population were hypersensitive to fluoride causing them general ill-health. In the past 3 years there has been many peer reviewed studies that show Fluoride to be a neurotoxin, which might explain why ireland has more than twice the global average of neurological disease.

    Also note that less than 35% of public water supplies are fluoridated in canada, the south island in NZ do not fluoridate and about 60% of USA fluoridate, in fact over 300 local councils and cities across america have banned it in USA in the past 10 years. Ireland is the most fluoridated country in the world. Furthermore international public health organisations and professional medical and dental associations have advised that no infant should be exposed to fluoride in their diets and in countries outside of Ireland (including the United States of America and Canada) parents are warned by public health officials not to feed their infants fluoridated drinking water, as it causes long term physical harm. Learn the facts and less ignorance/arrogance please.

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