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LIKE MOST IDEAS, culture and economics are interdependent. Yet in the national effort to try and restore Ireland’s reputation, political, media and public expectations of the arts are caught up in cultural gloop.
In the last three and a half difficult years, there have been two Global Irish Economic forums and one change of government. In this short time of economic disarray, quite different expectations of culture and the arts have been expressed. Political upheaval and influences apart, is it timely to examine how culture might effectively contribute to the restoration of Ireland’s damaged reputation?
Business is the activity of economics with a clear expectation of return on capital invested. The arts are one manifestation of culture, be it personal, local, national, regional or global. Historically, the unquantifiable political objectives of social cohesion, national identity and prestige justified the investment of public money in the arts.
Consider the mindset that prevailed pre-Farmleigh. In the run up to the 2009 Forum, global financial collapse had triggered a downfall in the Irish public and private finances. The Administration was in disarray having being lulled into a false sense of surplus. Corruption, a lack of governance, bankruptcy and scandals were corroding the national reputation. Competitiveness had been eroded. Ireland had lost bureaucratic friends through arrogance and extravagance and a general election loomed.
At the first Forum, a few hundred influential business people, entertainers, cultural diplomats and politicians discussed the restoration of national reputation. Unexpectedly, these discussions bypassed Innovation along with research and development, the predictable panaceas for economic ills, to focus on culture.
So how was it that culture came to prominence at Farmleigh, billed as an economic think tank for invited guests mainly from the world of business? Was it simply a lack of political will to directly tackle the deepening national economic and fiscal crises? Or might it have been that delegates, with their international business perspective, had an innate sense of culture’s role in enhancing national reputation and prestige?
Professor of Economics, John O’Hagan, presented his views of the economic importance of national prestige in the 2010 Trinity College Dublin Leadership Forum. One simplistic interpretation of the argument in his paper, Arts and Culture – A Future for Ireland? goes as follows:
National prestige is a virtuous circle. Enhancing national prestige increases the attractiveness of Ireland as a Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) location and tourism as well as the perceived value of exports, all of which further enhance national prestige.
To my mind, this unsentimental economic view of the value of the arts underpinned the first Forum discussion.
After the Forum, the media presentation and the public’s perception of the discussion degenerated rapidly into terse exchanges between artists and their public pay masters. While Ireland’s pre-eminent reputation in the arts was seen by the Farmleigh gathering as an obvious means to enhance Ireland’s reputation, it was, and still is, abhorrent to the artists whose value was to be leveraged and monetised in the national cause.
After the Forum, the media presentation and the public’s perception of the discussion degenerated rapidly into terse exchanges between artists and their public pay masters. While Ireland’s pre-eminent reputation in the arts was seen by the Farmleigh gathering as an obvious means to enhance Ireland’s reputation, it was, and still is, abhorrent to the artists whose value was to be leveraged and monetised in the national cause.
By 2011, some economic sores had been lanced. Political and administrative minds were trained on national competitiveness. Considerations of fiscal rectitude, debt as well as the restoration of investor confidence in Ireland’s banking system and business ecosystem were paramount. The Forum, opened by Taoiseach Enda Kenny, discussed how to make Ireland “the best small country in the world in which to do business” in a crisp, business-like manner. Actions, outcomes and results of the quantifiable economic variety were the order of this Forum. In contrast to Farmleigh, where culture was a means to positively influence and engage with the wider world, Dublin Castle was all about impact and quick economic wins.
Somewhere between the House and the Castle, expectations of culture shifted. With a few notable exceptions, such as delegate affirmations of the efficacy of Culture Ireland’s Imagine Ireland promotional programme in the US and the proposed World Actors’ Forum in 2013, Dublin Castle deliberations focused on the necessary conditions to restore the markets’ confidence, regain competitiveness and attract investment. A support role for the arts in this bid to enhance competitiveness, even as Ireland’s global business calling card, was downplayed. The arts as propaganda or economic grease were no longer the issues. As a result, no artist was offended. None were engaged either. Depending on the argument, the social glue and economic grease benefits of investment in the arts were randomly combined. Cultural gloop resulted.
In this Government’s first year, restoring competitiveness was the political imperative. Efforts to support enterprise, attract FDI and drive exports were strenuous. Quantifiable actions with quarterly results prevailed. In these conditions, it’s easy to see why culture wasn’t a priority. However, with national reputation and prestige being key to maintaining high levels of FDI, tourism and exports in fiercely competitive international markets, have the arts some role in regaining national competitive advantage?
One goal in the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht’s Statement of Strategy 2011–2014 is “to promote and develop Ireland’s world-class artistic and creative strengths at home and abroad, maximising their societal, economic and reputational value for the country”. This goal suggests a deliberate social glue role for the arts as well as economic grease and national prestige ones too. However, the economic and societal benefits of investment in the arts should be carefully considered if the cultural gloop is not to thicken.
Taoiseach Kenny’s stated objective of “making Ireland the best small country in the world in which to do business” might well have a complementary cultural objective. The traditional argument for the investment of public money in the arts, that of social glue, the ties that bind us, one to the other, as we exchange not just goods and services but ideas, meaning and a sense of who we are at home and around the world has renewed relevance. Culture wasn’t just for Farmleigh. Creating a civil society, or more explicitly, making Ireland the best small country in the world in which to live and do business, might both be pre-requisites for success. It’s now time to reach for economic success as well as a civil society, not just one or the other.
Anna Walsh is director of Culture Business Consultancy and has an MA in Arts Management and Cultural Policy from UCD.
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Poor guy is being crucified.
so let me get this i can draw down a full time salary as a senator and then claim disability allowance for not being able to work. Who gets disability allowance for Hepatitis anyway!!! It begs belief.
Welcome to Ireland James :)
You don’t know the circumstances. We are being fed half facts by a seemingly biased media.
Its not from the state its from trinity as a pension type payment..
You can apply for a welfare allowance for hep,A<B<C, depending on viral load,and geno type,I had hep C geno
type 2, Hepatitis is a serious virus,I suffered from extreme tiredness and also contracted A form of Vasculitus,
which is driven by hep antibodies,I was bed ridden for 1 year,I just completed my treatment and no longer
have the virus,I never claimed the allowance because it was my own fault for having unprotected sex abroad,
I thought i knew alot about hep,but i never ever heard of a person catching it from contaminated water.
Most if not all is from blood transfusion,sharing dirty needles or unprotected sex.???
@Raynond: The World Health Organisation has details on how Hepatitis E can be passed via water. Also, to clarify, he did not get this benefit/pension from the state, but from his employer.
Apparently Raymond you can catch it from water http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/diseases/hepatitis/en/ something I didn’t realise either.
@ Gavin Reilly, The allowance in this case being paid by his employer Trinity? In a round about way the state coffers ?
Horses for courses. I still cant see how you can claim disability from one employer yet work in a full time capacity for another, Ive nothing against Norris but if he is being elected as a blinding light of chance in the establishment well then that he aint. Ive no confidence in any of them, None.
James, TCD didn’t pay him it was an income protection insurance policy that he had taken out. No money came from the State.
Didn’t know you could clam welfare and work full time
It is paid by trinity not the state.
Is trinity not paid by the state ???
Is it state welfare or a college pension?
Aren’t they kind of the same thing?
It wasn’t from the state. It was “income protection insurance” according to a statement from TCD.
Having stood up for David Norris on NUMEROUS occasions I am completely disgusted and appalled by his behaviour! I have calculated that its €480,000 over the last 16 years that he has received in disability payments!!!!
Unforgivable and clearly not fit to be President!!
yeah paid by the COLLEGE not the state.Talk about over reacting..the biggest smear campaign this country has ever seen – I am “disgusted and appalled” also.
@ Shane, Trinity College recieves funding from the state. Trinity is not a private enterprise.
It also receives funding from alumni, donations and fees, so it’s not solely a state enterprise either.
This smear campaign has gone on long enough
my point exactly John
Trinity is funded by fees which were privately paid until the government decided to pay fees in the boom. This doesn’t make the college a public/ semi state company.
His campaign is a total train-wreck.. I supported his bid up until he re-entered the race but he’s just not right for the job. His meltdown in the debate last night sealed it for me.. the man made himself look absolutely ridiculous by going on the defensive as he did. He knew himself that a lot of digging would be done after the initial controversy and should have been prepared for anything thrown at him since.
Half stories half reported by the press. What is the Irish media turning into. The entire presidential election is being taken over by the gutter press.
Do people actually read the stories here before hysterically ranting and raving like demented lunatics? Norris was paid by TCD as for a disease that he contracted while abroad. He has provided the names of the legal team that gave him his legal advice. What will people want next?…..who gave him his confirmation money and where he spent it???
People would seriously want to grow up and cop them selves on with there fixation on stupid non-issues that are dogging the candidates of this campaign. It is the same people with the same line over and over again who either cant get over MMG’s past or DN’s past or Dana’s past or Davis’s past and so on. Those people should just switch on the History channel on TV or watch repeats of “reeling in the years” ad nauseum and let the rest of us get on with looking to the future. There are a bunch of people out there that have nothing better to do than troll all day with their stupid comments and even more insane beliefs which they are entitled to do admittedly . It would be better to ignore them and not give them credence, hopefully they will go back to the obscurity that they came from. What is needed is a positive debate on each candidate’s abilities here, now and for the future of the Presidency and the country.
Another Norris Fanboy – Perhaps instead of hysterically ranting and defending this individual you should stop and look at exactly what he has done. You’d soon realise he’s not a viable candidate for the job and his name should never have gone forward.
Perhaps you would like to point out where I was hysterical in any of my postings Lauren. If putting the facts on the table is hysterical then I’m guilty. If by forming reasoned, logical arguments is ranting I’m guilty. If by calling for people to stop this incessant mud slinging and get on with a constructive campaign is both hysterical and ranting then yes I am guilty.
Lauren, your profile photo is soooo good, i cant find thwe words to argue with you :)
Brian, it’s quit obvious that you are blind to reason here. Bringing Norris up on claiming disability while receiving a big wage is not mud slinging. It is stating facts. Legal or not, it was completely wrong to be claiming a payment for not being able to work when in fact he was working, and getting paid very well at that.
When one puts themselves forward for a role such as the president of a country they leave their past and character open to scrutiny. People want to be sure they are electing a credible, trustworthy candidate that they can be sure will act in the countries best interests. This has been reflected in the recent poll where Norris has dropped way down. What has come to light is:
Norris wrongfully claimed disability while working
Norris hit the drink after his ex-husband left him (haven’t we been embarrassed enough by people with drink problems in this country, ie. Cowen) – Who’s to say something else won’t happen in his personal life and he’ll turn to the drink again?
Norris defended a pedophile and a rapist
What else is hiding in the closet? Excuse the pun.
I have pity for him now. A Greek tragedy, performed live on television, self destructing before our very eyes, his dignity gone, a grim rictus smile, pretending he is not hurt,. incapable of any insight to the damage being done to his once noble reputation, self inflicted damage, irreversible damage; If it was a fight the referee would stop it now. We have had enough.
So do i John.
I hold him in high regard and have very little to disagree with regarding his public statements in the Senate. I have no views on his sexuality – it’s his private business and irrelevant to his suitability for President. But he has been cornered by a dirty campaign and really, I think has lost the stomach for it. Pity.
Im beyond caring about these letters now but I find it interesting that he has been told by Israeli legal advice that he cant release these documents, while Vincent Brown got the complete opposite advice last night.
So he was working 2 jobs for a good number of years as a lecturer and a senator. Got ill by a disease that affects ur liver and didn’t have the energy to keep doing 2 jobs. Was advised by his employer to go on long term disability so he did and concentrated on then on the one job. What’s the issue? He worked for the uni since 1968. Should he have been fired for being ill???
Tomorrow … Dana wore no knickers during the Eurovision !
thats my mind made up:))
Norris should go back to his part in Coronation Street!
Next thing you’ll be asking for his brother Chuck to get involved.
It’s a bit cheeky claiming benefits and working in a high paid job like that. At least he is publishing his details, warts and all. Any chance that Gay Mitchell will publish his EU expenses, an MEP is entitled to expenses of 200k euro alone. I presume his wife is still working for him. Mitchell made a real blunder when harping on about salaries and expenses, he is the one candidate that refuses to publish how he spends taxpayers money. The only candidate that voted for his wages to be increased as the economy collapsed. The man is his own worst enemy.
Getting back to Norris, I always felt that Lab. and FG backing him at the end was because they knew they could damage him between now and then and that he would be knocked off the lead and turned in to a sweeper for Mitchell and Higgins. Given Mitchell’s ravings I can’t see him getting many transfers so it will go to Higgins.
Where did u get the idea it was benefits?
Well Tony lets talk SF finances.
Can you please explain how SF are pocketing the tax payers money north and south of the border? You have this sham statement saying that your representatives are paid through the party an average industrial wage. Why isn’t the balance gifted back to the State? Instead, the taxpayer is funding your party. You claim not to be part of the “political establishment” – let me tell you that not only are you a part of it but now seems that you are financially dependent on it.
Brian,
This is it again. Being financially dependent on the state does not imply that a political party is therefore part of the ‘political establishment’ A small emerging non-conformist political party may very well need and rightly avail of state support to further the aims of it’s members and supporters. There is nothing wrong with this in a properly run democratic system. Which by the way ours is not.
Brian. Aren’t they allowed to invest in their own party?. That is what people in FG/FF used to do 80 years ago, when there were actually people in those parties that had motivations and a vision.
The tax payer is not funding the party, the elected reps are funding the party. They invest it in local offices, employing staff in constituencies, they are putting it to the locality. FG and FF and the PD’s get funding from very large corp. and rich individuals, it makes then massively corrupt. Will FG ever bring in the legislation prohibiting corporate donations, will they ever look at the mass of corruption that this drives and defines the big 2 parties here.
Could anyone imagine Kenny or Cowen working for even a 100k a year. The first TD that suggested that to them, would be blacklisted in the party.
FG could become the largest party in the country and maintain that if it did likewise, it would be the best funded party in Europe for a state of this size. Will they do that, of course not, you join FG/FF for what you can get off the state, not for what you can do for your country.
Tony, I have no problem with them investing in their party (within the same legal limits as anyone else), but that is not living on the average industrial wage, it is spending their money as they wish. I might want to spend my money on paying for college, buying coffee, books, nights out, and other food and drink. Also some small donations to my party. They also want to spend their money as they wish, by giving it to Sinn Féin. Fair enough, that’s their business. I don’t see how they can expect kudos from that from anyone outside Sinn Féin itself.
Tony, the taxpayer is investing in and subsidising Sinn Fein!! SF have declared that they are in unison with the ordinary working man by getting paid the same amount.
If that’s the case every SF TD should be sending a cheque back to the taxpayer every pay day (unless there’s an arrangement with payroll where they just get that magical wage only). Unless this is happening, then any SF TD is NOT repeat NOT earning an average industrial wage.
Has SF put in action a method to give the money back to the taxpayer? Of course not. They are stuffing their coffers with it. If FF were to do this what would you say?
The hypocrisy of Sinn Fein on this matter is unbelievable. Take your average industrial wage and gift the balance back to the state and stop conning the tax payer.
I still can’t figure this letters thing with David Norris.
He leaves a bunch of letters into The National Library to assist in the research for a book. He strikes a condition that these letters and documents have restricted access. He then says that the legally sensitive letters may or may not be among these documents which implies that he does not know where they are! This seems to me to be a very careless attitude to letters that have such importance regarding legal defamation and privilege and the well-being of the victim of the statutory rape attack by his former partner.
I just don’t get it. Does anyone?
So at the end of the day of smearing we get the truth
Norris claimed a disability allowance from a private insurance company as part of an income protection scheme that he paid into out of his own money. at the advice of his employer. NO public money was paid to him. Some people will find any excuse to twist the truth to hurt his man!!!
Is there general concensus that Norris is getting unfairly targetted in this presidential race? or is there not enough scrutiny being paid to the very poor manner in which he is dealing with the bad publicity and also how his rivals are dealing with the matter? I look at how Davis and McGuinness have responded to theirs and it seems as if they are managing to deal with it better. From McGuinness point of view its years of experience i guess. At present i really dont have any interest in voting for any of the candidates as we’ve yet to see any real debate on issues that affect the presidency, it seems to be a circus at the moment, we’ve seen the clowns, the jugglers and the trapeze artists. Bring on the lion tamers and the fire swallowers!
Whether the pension is being paid privately or by the state is not the issue, the integrity of the man is the issue. He is receiving a disability pension because he can’t work, but he is working, full-time and some. That’s not the kind of person I want to represent me. Simple as. I wouldn’t park in a disabled parking spot because it’s not the right thing to do, never mind claim a pension.
What part of “had been advised by Trinity College” did you miss out on? They told him to apply for this payment so maybe you should be asking them what they were up to instead of Norris. They knew he was a Senator at the time a still told him to collect the payment.
Maybe we should stop the State pension to people with private pensions while we are at it!
Actually Brian you can’t claim a state pension and a private pension. You choose one or you can claim half benefits from both.
Cormac I’m not to sure that you are right on that. Everyone is entitled to the State pension and if you go to any pension advisor they will include the State pension in their calculations. Irish Life http://www.irishlife.ie/advice/pension-calculator.html have a calculator here and it includes the State pension in figuring how much you need to contribute. I’m not an expert on these matters but that is my reading of the situation however if someone could clarify it that would be helpful.
So far as I can see the only candidate that seems to have a whiter than white past is Higgins. I haven’t noticed one negative story nor any kind of triumphalist dirt digging that McG, Norris, Mitchell and Davis receiving. The man is clearly eligible for sainthood. The Presidency is beneath him.
I hope the presidency is beneath him, and that he keeps all 3 incomes from the state that he is currently receiving (Professors pension, Ministers pension, TDs pension) …. and oh hell yeah, he is on a senators wager right now … And we all know that no true patriot would try and rob the state coffers for PERSONAL gain …. But, as long as his governments and the FF governments write it into law that he should be allowed to take all this money from the Tax-payer, its all good … Nothing wrong with it at all …. He deserves all that money… really ……. no, i mean it, he is such an intellectual, i would not even try and be sarcastic here and say something like … “nothing LEGALLY wrong in taking all this money from us”. Mroally, given the history of FF/FG/Labour in government, looking at how they wrote these laws to suit their own pockets, i would say there is something SERIOUSALLY MORALLY Rotten in the state of Denmark (and yeah i know we are in Ireland ).
It’s a bit rich, accepting 2,500 disability payment a month over such a long period of time whilst engaging fully in another job- he earned a tidy half a mil through that alone. What a nice brucie bonus on top of his senators wage- which IS paid by the taxpayer. So I can understand why people feel incensed.
i dont see your problem. he took out private income protection in the case where he couldnt do one of his 2 full time jobs. he became sick and a private insurance company paid him an allowance as according to his employer he wasnt able to continue with the demands of being a lecturer. he still admirably continued to work hard as a senator and received a wage for that job!!!
If he makes a voluntary contribution into a scheme or has it as part of his renumeration what’s the issue?
It would seem to me that the scheme pays out even if he is employed elsewhere and has no issue with it.. It’s not exactly that his position a s Senator was low key under the radar position.
Weither it was his entitlement or not, its the greed that is the problem, alongside of saying he "was" permanently disabled (ironic, isnt it?) which is an insult to those who are truly disabled.
I din’t that’s greed at all! If you’ve paid into a scheme then you are entitled to draw down on it within the terms and conditions. Nothing wrong with that.
The Issue Brian is that he is dishonest on what appears many levels. I think it would be an embarrassment for the Irish people if he won !
Haven’t made my mind up on Norris but the Indo seems to be conducting some sort of campaign. The presidential election is degenerating into an exercise in cynicism.
He’s being crucified by all in this campaign (I don’t mean to cause offence to any of the media they are stating the facts before them in the interests of their reader) But I believe since he was entitled to this allowance it was within his rights to claim it. Also in regard to a comment above University of Dublin (better known as TCD) is not funded by the state. So it did not come out of the tax payers pocket.
Pleas for paedo’s, disability from a ‘water spread disease’?? Is there anything straight about Norris at all?
@ Darren Parslow – was waiting for a a homophobe like you to get their oar in.
@Shane Boyle-Simms you do know you’ve just equated homosexuality with pedophilia. I’m sure it wasn’t your intention but that’s what it amounts to. Norris isn’t being raked over his sexuality, he’s being raked over his attempts to insert himself in a case which was before the Israeli court system.
Not a homophobic in any way. I’m against liars and paedo’s though.
@ JsLeFanu
Yes Norris is being raked over his sexuality..what was Darren P’s intention with “Is there anything straight about Norris at all” comment. These comments appear time and time again and they are homophobic.He is referencing his sexuality in a negative way.So no I did not equate homosexuality with paedophilia.
What I do know is that 98 percent of paedophiles are men and 90 percent of paedophiles are Hetrosexual just like Darren Parslow.
Shane, if someone described you as ‘ a straight up guy in his financial dealings with no skeletons in his closet’, would you translate that into ‘ Shane is a gay murder who buries bodies in wardrobes?’ No you wouldn’t, so stop twisting my words.
“straight up” is a completely different turn of phrase and you know it, otherwise you would have used it. You didn’t.
Shane, I thought we spoke about twisting words.
no we didn’t you did. twist away , you seem quite good at it.
David Norris has never been elected but has held public office in this country since the early nineties. He has recieved a substantial salary from the state for well over 20 years and for much of that time he has drawn both a salary and a pension from the state (a TCD pension is state funded). I cannot understand the concept that David Norris has somehow been hard done by and unfairly treated. If he had to go through an election before enjoying his many years in the Seanad, all of these skeletons would have come out of the closet long ago. I reckon he will be torn apart in this election and its about time because he has sponged for for far too long. This has nothing to do with his sexuality and everything to do with his grip, or lack of, on reality.
He has been elected Rory to the UCD panel and funnily enough none of these issues were brought up until now.
He stated himself that he got 40% of a total of 60,000 voted. Hardly democratically elected tho.
Jesus Cormac, it’s incredible – you’re virtually stabbing yourself in the eye to make yourself blind to the facts.
40% of 60,000 isn’t democracy?
If there were seven people running and one got 40% and won while the other six got 10% each – that’s democracy!
If there were three people running and one got 40% and won while two got 30% each – that’s democracy!
What if he got 40% and another person got 39% and the rest were spoiled?
Crazy, crazy, crazy! You’ll say anything, no matter how stupid it makes you look, just to spite Norris.
This is very disappointing. I was wavering on the letters thing but this is the straw…
While this is a non story I have to worry what else Norris isn’t telling us. First the letter was raised and he told us that was it. Then there are 6 more letters which he refuses to publish. Now this. While each one on it’s own isn’t bad I just have to wonder what else is against him.
As far as the media goes, David Norris is “the gift which keeps on giving”!!
Firstly, when the ‘other letters’ non-controversy first broke I explained online in detail why he couldn’t publish them even though I have no legal training and no insider information on the situation. Everything that I said back then has been confirmed since. Plus, I and others said that even if people moved on from ‘lettergate’ they would find something else to attack him on, and they have.
Secondly, how did the info on his disability pension come out? Who is going through his rubbish bin? Who is leaking this information? And why?
The man worked for over 20 years in TCD, all the while paying into an income insurance scheme (something I was offered many years ago when I was pulling in over IR£1000 per week and I regret not doing it).
For the last 5 years of working in TCD he was also a senator, he was ‘double-jobbing’, which is perfectly legal.
He contracted hepatitis, which is very serious when you contract it over 20yrs of age and even more serious after 30yrs. The man was lucky not to die and lucky to be able to recover and have a pretty good life, but it took him out of TCD for 3 months and it took over a year for him to get properly back on his feet. In the process he had a decision to make, leave TCD or the Senate as he could no longer (under medical advice) do both jobs, he chose to leave TCD and got signed off as not being able to work such a strenuous job (I’ve taught in 3rd level and it is quite stressful, not just the teaching but the ‘publish or perish’ culture and more besides).
The man was actually incredibly astute and very wise in his career and financial decisions, I really think there’s a lot of typical Irish begrudging going on here. He paid insurance on his TCD income and claimed on it – to decry this is the equivalent of having car insurance, having an accident, claiming on the insurance and being condemned for it – it’s hypocrisy of the highest order and can only be explained by begrudgery, envy and insufferable self-righteousness.
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a very serious, intense smear campaign going on against David.
I guess they’ll find an old gay website profile next or drag an old boyfriend (lover) out of obscurity from somewhere to make some more shocking revelations.
Watch this space.
well said. im sick of people making lies and not reading the facts of a case before judging someone!
Wonder of this forum is the right place for campaigning.
He got s self limiting type of Hepatitis that usually burns itself out after several weeks, hardly qualifies for 16 years disability.
really all the newspapers are saying its serverly dangerous for a person of his age and takes several years to recover from!!! trying to spread factless lies are we
No, David, Hepatitis E is usually self limiting.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/178140-overview
For your info.
Also, you shouldn’t believe everything you read in the papers. Did nobody ever tell you that?
Theres obviously a lot of people at work in digging up Norris stories. I think his campaign is done as i dont think the media will leave him be to get on with the campaign. Gay Mitchell has just as much a case to answer in writing letters and his extreme views but he is getting a free ride, mainly because only he think he has any chance of winning.
Higgins is the only real choice for me now.
Mitchell will be in trouble for his refusal to publish detailed expenses from the EU. They are fairly notorious for their large expenses in the EU..
Ironically enough he was the one who has been pushing it and will end up being the one who refuses to shed light on it.
The man has an innate ability to walk himself in to a cul de sac.
He has published them Tony. On his website.
Less of your Sinn Fein propaganda please.
People who live in the real economy are laid-off after a few months if they are too sick to work.
So he is too sick to stand up in front of a few students and lecture them is he?
Yet he bounds around the country like a jack rabbit lecturing the rest of us.
That money comes from the taxpayer.
If a social-welfare recipient on disability allowance did that he/she would be bunged up in jail.
no it didn’t come from the taxpayer! F**k sake read the fact before you start spouting lies.
@Shane – Irrespective of who paid the allowance shane, would you not agree that claiming disability allowance all the while being able to work (for 16 years!!!) is not becoming of a presidential candidate. Realistically every response he gives it has been based on ‘someone elses advice’ In this case the College admins seemingly told him to claim it. It appears Mr Norris is not able do make any decisions without advice, is this man not an adult. Anyone can see that his is wrong. The man is fully fit to work, the allowance shouldnt have been paid by any entity. He is making enough money from his seanad activities and the TCD pension.
Whats more hilarious is that there are people out there that will gladly stand up for the schisters that claim every penny they can. If it was johnjo the dole hound would you have the same attitude…. claiming disability and working on the side on a building site ??
Norris is his own worst enemy ..
Can’t help wondering about the amount of focus on the Norris campaign. Who benefits? Michael D seems harmless enough, no one been digging his garden yet though, why not?
More thunderous storms in insignificant teacups.
Hard to see Norris having any chance at this stage. Smear campaign or not, the facts don’t make for easy reading one way or the other. Too much baggage for the majority of Irish people me thinks.
Seems like the candidate with the least dirt on their back may win this one, even though there won’t be quite so much digging done for the others !
I wonder why ?
As someone who was diagnosed with unexplained chronic liver disease age 12 see my opinion piece ~ my mother was asked about foreign travel – incessantly as if she had retrograde amnesia / we didn’t know then or were told about devastating effect of hepatitis c
Even though you can recover if you did get it – when u do the exhaustion can be indescribable – I was asked pre transplant about intravenous drug use – etc and I even worried my Liver damage may have come from infected blood products like the huge scandal of women exposed to such – an aids and hep c test was needed before I was even accepted to go on list
God help me if I ran for President <> no doubt my cystic fibrosis related liver damage would be implied as self inflicted by alcohol
In my humble opinion (cliche alert) it’s a an attempt at muck racking to derail his campaign for a second time – of course we are entitled to see all records but once they are revealed like this then people should research – hep c is no poor back excuse type affliction – it’s devastation can be transient or permanent – for the former see Gary Lineker who only had hepatitis b a much less severe form – before Euro 88 and the epic Ray Hougton win he’d been suffering from it lost yards of pace taking him years to recover
For the latter see all I’ve seen die of hep c related Liver Disease and this contaminated with infected blood products in early 80′s
Well said.
Norris stressed that he had not claimed a state allowance for his condition, which he described as “non-A, non-B, non-C”… sorry to hear your story and/or treatment.. but it (seems to be) tybe e hep that he has…
nowhere near as serious…
Waiting to here more about this, there may or not be a stink about it. One thing is certain though, if he was FG or FF this would not have come out about him. The Irish establishment do love to circle around the wagon, when someone looks to be threatening them. I disagree with Norris on a good few things but I do believe that he is a motivated by the welfare of all people in this country, not just the ones at the top. I’ll give him a pref.
What astonishes me is that Norris has a titanium plated justification for refusing to release those remaining letters but he refuses to use it. From the outset the legal excuses he’s been proffering have been rubbished and even if there is technically some justification it hardly matters because no one believes him, even his own supporters.
So what rational, robust and verifiable justification is it that I’m asserting he could, and should, use but doesn’t?
Simples if you know anything about Israel and “Palestine” you’ll know that were this individuals identity to become know, and were he anywhere under Palestinian jurisdiction, his homosexuality (not to mention the fact of his sexual involvement with jews) being revealed would put his life, liberty, livelihood and welfare in the gravest of jeopardy. It would be no exaggeration to say that there’s every chance he’d wind up on some piece of waste ground with a bullet in his head (which would then be attributed to the Israeli Defense Forces and then reported again in the western press without any attempt to ascertain whether it’s true or false).
There is a sub culture in Israel of sheltering Palestinian homosexuals who’ve been outed at home. When a Palestinian gay gets caught their first, entirely sensible, instinct is to try to get into Israel AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!
There are many Israeli’s, gay and straight, who help these individuals all the time. It’s simply not credible to believe that Norris doesn’t know this already which raises the question as to why he isn’t majoring on this in defending his position.
My own best guess is that by doing so he would completely undermine decades of his own “work” in demonizing and denigrating Israel and thus risks alienating a considerable portion of his “base.” It’s an unfortunate trap Norris has snared himself in because unlike the legalistic guff he’s hiding behind, this justification holds water. It’s true, it’s verifiably true and yet he won’t use it. Astonishing really that there could actually be high principle behind Norris’s refusal to release these letters but that instead of asserting this high principle he shivers behind solicitors excuses.
@JSLeFanu – oh look what you did there leFanu, quelle surpris, you took a topic discussing the presidential elections and shoehorned a rant about israel and palestine into it. you’re off on a tangent, would be nice if you got back on to the topic of discussion.
@Shane Boyle-Simms – i dont think its a smear campaign against Norris, he’s made himself a very easy and large target by refusing to tackle head on or at least properly prepare a response for what is coming down the line in the media.
Anyone who is running his campaign surely should have seen the double job disability claim, the israeli letters, and god knows what else that provides cheap fodder for column inches… and come up with a proper way to deal with it. He’s lacking some decent PR and is effectively being sunk by a campaign team who appear ineffectual or out of their depth (e.g harassing a councillor to get a last ditch vote after she said no isnt the best publicity, telling him to plead right to privacy on the remaining letters just makes people more curious)
Each of the candidates (bar higgins, unless i missed it) is currently being dragged through the mud for their participation in practises that either are deemed to be disreputable, dishonest or unacceptable to a public that feed on any hint that they’ve been screwed over in some regard etiher morally or financially.
As this campaign goes on all i begin to see is more tarnish applied to most of the people running for a post that used to be valued on, and sought after by candidates that stood up to, the worthiness, honesty, hard work and humanity of the role. Whoever wins the day it will be a shallow victory, and will have to not only work hard to promote and renew the confidence of Ireland but also to bring us back to a time where Robinson brought pride to the role of President to the forefront both at home and internationally.
@paul madden I am fully on topic and you’re simply attempting to troll and failing badly.
It’s is impossible to address Norris’s credibility as a candidate without discussing the letters, as attested to by the fact that this article references the letters no fewer than five times. Given that these letters were addressed to Israeli judicial officials, politicians and concern a case which was before the Israeli courts it would take a superhuman effort of holocaust denial enormity to avoid the subject of Israel. So if you don’t mind please stop trolling and stay on topic. Thank you very much.
not trolling at all LeFanu,
i fail to see how describing if the subject of the paedophilia court case of Norris letters lived in Palestine and getting a bullet in the head for his lifestyle has anything to do with letters to an Israeli court being brought up as part of scrutiny of a presidentials candidates official practises. Neither Norris, nor we are to believe the defendant or accused in the Israeli case addressed Palestinian issues, nor was the issue of Palestine raised in any news piece relating to these letters. You had quite a lengthy debate on the Palestine Israel piece by the ambassador here on this site and as such it feels as if you’re trying to drag that debate back to life on this thread here. if anything your remarks would seem somewhat more akin to trolling than mine. I have endeavoured to point out what i believe to be the failure of Norris campaign team to deal with the issue of double jobbing disability claim, which you appear to have overlooked.
You clearly have very strong opinions about Israel and Palestine but i do think you should leave that to another article thread and maybe try and discuss the main issue in this article instead, as most other posts have.
@Paul Madden “Neither Norris, nor we are to believe the defendant or accused in the Israeli case addressed Palestinian issues, nor was the issue of Palestine raised in any news piece relating to these letters.”
Which is precisely why I raised the matter. Norris has studiously avoided the one copper-bottomed defense he could have, and still can, made to justify his withholding of those letters. If Norris’s writing of those letters, his subsequent withholding of the contents of those letters and the refusal of this issue to go away are off topic then you should address that matter to the author of this piece we’re commenting on because they couldn’t avoid bringing the matter up 5 TIMES! The fact that the fate this Palestinian would likely suffer in Palestine isn’t getting reported on in the papers is a direct consequence of Norris’s, apparent, refusal to use this defense. That’s precisely the reason I raised the matter and precisely what I think makes it worth raising. Or must every aspect of an issue be raised by a journalist before it becomes fair comment? You’ll have to explain because I’m at a loss as to the algebraic formula of relevance you’re attempting to apply here.
Oh, and by the way, who appointed you moderator of this thread? Was there some vote I missed out on?
Has it not been reported widely here the identity of the perpetrator in the statutory rape case. It could hardly be a secret to the Palestinians?
@John Murphy the identity of the perpetrator isn’t the issue, he’s ok, he’s Israeli and so he gets to stay safely in Israel. It’s the identity of the Palestinian which is of concern. I wouldn’t like to be him if his identity gets released while he’s living in the West Bank or Gaza. The Palestinians have a way with Gays, an extremely nasty, sadistic, murderous and vicious way.
@le fanu,
in answer to your question, no, all comment doesnt have to be covered by a journalist to be fair comment. so in that vain you should also realise that i’m entitled to my own fair comment. but if you wish to classify that as moderation or trolling then you’re clearly incapable of engaging with people in proper discussion, and that others that have an opinion that is contrary to yours, however much you loathe it must be accomodated. I think you’re indulging your fixation with israel and palestine on this forum, but if you dont believe that then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
@backontopic
Norris should never have re entered the campaign. I had all the time in the world for him as a viable candidate the first time round and would have voted for him. I thought his withdrawl although unfortuate was both admirable and statesmanlike as he wished to preserve the integrity the the post of president. Where his letters to the court were as he said out of concern and him acting upon his feelings, his re entry into the presidential election is not based on concern for others but more i believe on his own ego, and for me that has damaged what i think of Norris as a politician. The question of his pension here just merely compounds his inability to manage these issues as any good politician would.
How would he as president handle the issue of meeting with and shaking hands with the modern day equivalent of Gerry Adams? Would he shake the hand of Ratzinger and then if popular public opinion expressed disgust at that would he deny he ever did it?
( In case anyone thinks i’m attacking the church here, the comparison is that at the time Adams was seen as the public figurehead of an organisation that was killing innocent people and destroying lives, similarly Ratzinger represents an organisation that refuses to acknowledge and deal with its members involvement in disgusting practises that have destroyed countless young peoples lives.)
Could he actually be challenging and representative on issues that affect the majority of people today – poverty, suicide, drugs, unemployment? Or would he go on the late late show and tell everyone how he was lucky to have paid off the mortgage on his second house when the times were good while everyone has just had their pockets picked by the banks? You’re a lucky man Mr Norris, but you havent used your position as effectively as you should. You snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
You only have to look to other politicians both home and abroad who have faced what appears to be a heavy handed campaign against them comparable to their counterparts and you can see that time in the Seanad does not prepare you for the the vicious coal face of politics. That would also apply to Mitchell who has been too cosy as an MEP to effectively marshall any effective support. He has the largest party with the highest ever puplic support and yet he too is trailing behind? It really goes to show not only the strength of character required to run for office but also the team you chose to help you is crucial to your success. Obama, Kenny, Cameron arent all a one man show.
Norris Joyce is fecked … Disappear boy .. !!!
Tomorrow, if it is revealed that Norris has two legs, two arms and a head, I’ll be shocked, shocked to my core. It could be a huge, insurmountable even, obstacle to his election. Picture the headline for a moment: Exposed. Norris is fully human. What will the leader writers and zombie prophets of establishment Ireland do with that news, eh? Man becomes ill. Is declared unfit for work. Claims his entitlements under company illness policy. The way some people are reacting, one would think this was a first in the history of humankind, let alone Ireland. What’s next? A demand that every candidate complete an Iron Man contest twice a week on the canvas? The muck raking won’t stop of course. The establishment has too much to lose.
Excellent comment Trevor I hope everyone takes the time to read it.
Shane, i seem to recall you making a few spurious claims against McGuinness on another thread??? Pot-Kettle, you know the story …
But in saying all that, I do feel sorry for Norris … He does seem to have a good heart and i genuinely do think he has good intentions … Martin # 1 Norris # 2 …… the rest can go to hell
@ cal
no I have never commented on McGuinness before,on Dana a Mitchell yes I have.
You must be mistaken I think and yes Norris I think does have a good heart as you have said.
Apologies, for the mix-up, your face looks familiar … were you annonymous somewhere else? ;)
Where does Trinity get it’s funding from ????
Fees!
nah.
Mayor Quimby for Prez
I have to agree with Trevor’s excellent post above, there does seem to be something of a smear campaign against Norris, every day it’s something different. You can’t help but get the impression that these “smears” against Norris are becoming more and more desperate and whoever is behind them is grasping at straws. The man caught a serious illness some time ago, he was perfectly entitled to draw the pension from a scheme he was prudent enough to have paid into. While I have no problem with the presidential candidates having to reveal certain things about themselves there is a line and I think they are entitled to say their medical history, records and any illnesses that are not relevant are private and out of bounds. While all of them attract media attention for various reasons none attract the same level of attention of Norris, for some reason he alone attracts more attention than all the rest. I’m sure some day I’m going to see the headline “Norris asked about Greek default, parents keep kids safe”
His feet must look like a couple of colanders at this stage!
Is there a such thing as non A non B or Non C hep?
Something fishie going on
There are D and E strains aswell.
Gav Hep d or delta virus is usaully a kinda partner of hep B or together they make
a super virus which is very deadly,Hep E usually dies out in a couple of months,
I dont think it would be active for 16 yrs, I had geno/2 HepC and was involved in
forums about Hep,I never heard of any person with non-hep,It a bit oxy,like
non HIV,Hep E is spread by common name Faecal-oral and is found in
regions where you dont shake a persons a left,its use is toiletry,usually
in the bush in Afrika,or the arab desert states
How many independents are in the race this time…?
Four. Norris, Davis, Gallagher and Dana.
(Strictly speaking he’s wrong about there never being an independent president before: Mary Robinson, though supported by Labour, was not a Labour Party candidate in 1990.)
Gav, isnt’ McGuinness running as an independent?
Martin mcguinness is running as an independent isn’t he, he’s bring supported by SF but not running for them
That’s a bone of contention, though of course I’d have to concede that McGuinness is saying so himself. Must also concede that Martin’s literature and website doesn’t carry any SF branding either, so perhaps that’s one I missed.
Norris means an independently nominated candidate has never been elected, which is true. There have of course been independent presidents. Douglas Hyde for example.
Regarding this guy Norris, are the revelations EVER going to end? Do we really need or want such a sullied and tainted distasteful individual as our First Citizen?
No we do not and that I’d exactly what we will get IF GAY MITCHELL moves into the park
Leaving aside Norris warped sense of age of consent
It now appears that Mr Norris is claiming disability from his job in Trinity Collage
If he is unable to give a few lectures in Trinity Collage
How does he expect to conduct the roll of President of this country?
He is nothing better than a welfare cheat and should be treated accordingly
Bren, just for consistency purposes …. Do you think it wrong that Michael D is claiming 3 pensions and a salary right now ?? Legally he is entitled to them, as he was part of the Government that allowed this to pass… But Morally ?????
Read the article and no I am not a fan of David Norris but he was claiming social welfare pension
Oops David Norris WAS NOT claiming social welfare pension it is a private pension he was receiving
Sorry about omitting in last post the word NOT
@Cal that is what I have a huge problem with Multi pensions and doing the same Job POLITICIANS
Norris is greedy and dishonest. Fortunately, the majority of people who have contracted the less severe form of Hepatitis through contaimnated water or seafood recover fully and do not become “permanently disabled”. Generally, the more debilitating forms (such as Hep C) are contracted through blood or body fluid.
The doctor who certified Norris’ permanent disability should be investigated by the Medical Council’s fitness to practice commitee. An independent hepatologist should review the evidence and make recommendations.
Is that a case of fraud? Or just another example of cronyism….
each and everyone of the candidates is only interested in the job because of the salery and pension ‘entitlements’
that goes with it. lets stop kidding ourselves and the entire population that any of them are interested in ‘the good of the nation’ or its people, it’s greed and greed alone that drives these egomaniacal nobodies and nothing else, if the presidency was to carry no salery,expensis or pension, do you really believe that these people would want the job?. i dont care if norris, borris or dorris get the presidency because it will do feck all to help the ordenary irish citizen, you know the poor sods who are being ripped off by tax hikes,over inflated fuel prices, inadaquite infrastructure and services, those who are unable to find work to pay their mortgage and are at risk of losing their homes to the greedy banks , (how many of them got an insurence payout ?) we should scrap this post altogether and save the county some money for a change .
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