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The Daily PollIT’S NOW ONE month until Ireland goes to the polls for this year’s Presidential election, which means candidates’ posters can now start to be displayed.
The posters are a familiar sight across Ireland during election season, but can cost hundreds of thousands of Euro for candidates and parties.
The first posters, belonging to Sinn Féin’s Liadh Ní Riada, were spotted around Dublin earlier today.
However, Independent senator Joan Freeman has said she wouldn’t use them.
We want to know whether other candidates should follow her lead: Should election posters be scrapped?
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“This is not a perfect world we live in”. This is something that the anti-choice side cannot comprehend. Women can still be raped, a foetus can develop abnormalities, women can encounter difficulties during pregnancy, if it were the case that none of these things could happen then maybe it would be a perfect world, but that is not the case, we have to face the problems that are happening in society and shy away from them.
Abortion doesn’t prevent rape & has being the cause of the the rape victim of the C case attempting suicide. It is insulting that those of us who have children with abnormalities, have our children viewed upon as being less entitled to live. It is better to permit a human being to survive a few hours in the presence of caring family rather than undergoing the painful suffering of having feticide injected thru the heart. Where abortion is legal it is not always the ‘choice’ of the women to abort but pressure from family & friends. The recent suicide case Bollywood star Jiah Khan an example.
Did you ever think it might be insulting to those who have been raped to tell them that they should be forced to continue a pregnancy they don’t want? And stop referencing a Bollywood actress all the time. Look at the 5k women a year here who have an abortion.
Also Marion, the pro choice side does not support coercion at all, but nice try
Babies with abnormalities are not all babies with fatal abnormalities Marion.
Some babies abnormalities will be fatal, it is only those abnormalities that anyone is interested in legislating for. Please do not attempt to conflate the two it is extremely dishonest.
Laura where’s the evidence that the 4K who’ve had abortions were suicidal? http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/healthandchildren/PatriciaCaseySubmission.pdf
Which 4k?
If you are referring to the women who travel from Ireland to access abortion services, there is no onus to prove that any of them were suicidal, as this is not a required state to acquire abortion in the UK.
They may access abortion on very wide grounds in the UK. Including a risk to the woman’s health. This is not the same thing as accessing an abortion because of risk to life. In the UK she may also access abortion services if the pregnancy may have an impact on her other children.
So none of the 4-5k women estimated to have travelled abroad for abortion had to be suicidal. Some may well have been, but as they are not required to be to access abortion services in the UK, there would not be any record of it if they were.
Therese, I never inferred they were. You were implying that women are suicidal post abortion, I asked you to look at the thousands of women a year who’ve had abortions. How many of them have committed suicide after?
Now, now, Peace for All – you’re being a wee bit misleading without mentioning the study that that graph comes from indicates that suicidal women are more likely to choose to terminate a pregnancy (if you can’t see living past next year, it’s probably hard to imagine the next 18 years.)
Now Now Nick, look below and you’ll see the study.
That everyone on all sides have reservations about this legislation is probably a good sign.
That thought occurred to me too! A decent compromise tends to leave nobody fully satisfied.
Compromise only serves to produce two losers…
That’s pretty much the definition of a compromise, yeah. Nobody is a winner, nobody gets all of what they wanted.
Ferg, welcome to democracy. Compromise is a prerequisite. If you want absolution, it might be time to join a seminary and be told what to think instead.
Sure. Tell that to the blind girl or boy born as a result of early delivery brought about about a law that is not based on a single shred of evidence. Or the child with cerebral palsy. Or why not just kill the child once it has been delivered alive. Is that what you ‘d like?
This law would not oblige you to have an abortion, it just provides it as an option in some pretty limited circumstances. If you don’t want one, that’s your entitlement. It’s your choice.
Off to mass with you and pray for our pro choice souls. You bishop believing shower of sheep give me an itch…
Find it pretty depressing that people think a ‘decent compromise’ is something which denies women the right to health-saving abortions. You can only access one if you’re literally on the brink of death; not before then. Sound for that, men who are never going to have to be faced with looking down that barrel.
I never thought I would see the day that Reilly said something and it made sense , he is right in this instance, the lesser of two evils.
When those suicidal women commit suicide after undergoing abortion like Bollywood star Jiah Khan then what?
Her husband forced her to have an abortion which is abhorrent. Get your facts straight or just continue on ignoring the facts that don’t suit your anti-choice agenda.
Funny how in the case of Ms Khan people just focus on the abortion. Is the fact she left a letter talking about the abuse she suffered at the hands of her husband not relevant? How about the fact she was coerced into the abortion? Women who are able to make a judgement for themselves based on what they want and not on what their family or partner want, women who can access decent post abortion counselling if needed and who don’t face the stigma of being labelled a “murderer” are probably going to recover well.
“It’s very clear in the law – a woman in this law has a right to have a termination where her life, as opposed to her health, is at risk.”
Well I’m happy that our Health Minister is happy that the health of a real, living women, with family, friends, emotions and pain thresholds is not really that important in comparison to potential life, good man James!
Where in your quote does he say that he is happy about it? He’s saying that the law is clear. That’s all.
“Potential” life? At what point does it become actual?
How is it in comparison to potential life? They’re not giving the woman a hysterectomy.
Think I need to clarify my point. James Reilly seems to be saying that it’s grand that this legislation only covers life threatening situations. Now I believe that the health of a full grown women being threatened is just as important. If a pregnancy endangers a women’s health she should be able to have an abortion. Because the fetus is not of equal consideration in my opinion.
Also, where is the line between endangerment of health and endangerment of life? In my mind there is none.
In conclusion, let women chose and none of this is even relevant, trust women to make a choice.
At what point is it beyond ‘potential life’ though? And who looks after the baby if the intention is to kill it and it inconveniently does survives? Just asking, like.
Oh you just throw it in the bin no? Cause all of us pro abortionists are mad for killing babies like :)
I’ll indulge you for a moment, if an abortion is unsuccessful then assuming, like the vast majority of abortions, it’s very early in term, then the mother could choose to have another abortion. Or she could continue with the pregnancy, yanno, she’d have a choice like :)
Good man, don’t answer the question I asked. If, and it happens that late term abortions, the baby survives who is responsible for its care?
Jim, 89% of abortions are done through the pill which results in a heavy period. The success failure rate of this is rare. If you don’t support abortion that’s fine, but at least try to discuss it within realms of reality rather than the rare cases that don’t occur to most women.
You never specified Jim. So again, I’ll indulge you, if after a late term abortion a child is born then AGAIN the mother would have a choice, to keep the child or to give it up for adoption. What exactly do you think pro choice people are going to say? Kill the child? You have no argument, you just fundamentally do not trust women to make choices.
Jim I’ll gladly answer your question. It’s beyond potential life once it’s passed the point of viability. When it’s not reliant on its mother for life. Your second question is one in which the medical professionals can answer.
Jim, you’re asking a question that happens worldwide. What happens is if it’s too late to abort, she carries the baby to term. If it’s still early in the pregnancy, it’s up to the woman whether she wants to attempt another abortion or proceed with the pregnancy.
It goes beyond potential life when it has to ability to achieve life.
As to who looks after the baby, well that really depends on if the woman wishes to keep it as her child, puts up for abortion or as some people in other countries do, abandon the child.
Jim what happens if abortion is available in a woman’s country but she’s determined to have one, so she orders unregulated drugs off the internet and winds up killing herself and the fetus? No fun debating like this, is it
It’s not a potential life… it’s a life with potential. Honestly how you guys screw your words to suit your agenda…
Yeh, so is my sperm :)
Laura, you are one very confused lady. You have my deepest sympathy.
I presume that means that you do not wish to answer jims question. I presume that the baby would be placed in care, and given to a family that wants a child.
I think you need to learn the facts of life
Sorry Ferg, is the subject matter going over your head?
‘Life with potential’? How do you figure that? It’s a developing life, you know exactly what it is.
Laura, we all know the best experts on a woman’s reproductive choices are old white dudes on the internet, just listen and learn!
To be clear Martin g you need to learn the facts of life
Sorry Martin, I forgot that was my place as a woman!
Ferg, clearly a woman having a period is murder then, all those potential babies! I’m clearly a murderer by having ovaries
Very good, Triona.
bigjake, I’m gonna wager I know quite a bit more about the facts of life than you do :)
Weill said Martin!!!
Great comment Triona!!
Tríona, having a period is a natural process that doesn’t end a life. It’s not comparable to taking positive action designed to end a life.
Do you understand the difference between something happening naturally and someone causing something?
Fair comment lets keep it friendly life is to short Martin
Chuck, oddly enough I am rather familiar with the natural process of having a period.
Quite frankly though, you miss the point of my comment – addressing the potential for life comments. My egg has a potential for life, however for years of my life they have not achieved this potential. Now I am on the pill, am I actively murdering cells that have potential for life?
I do indeed understand the difference between something happening naturally and something being caused by outside influence. Do you understand the difference between murder and abortion?
Triona,
Life with potential is not the same as potential for life. Basic biology in fairness.
Triona, I think the argument would be that a fertilised egg has the potential for life because, without complications or outside influence, it will develop into a child. An egg or sperm on their own, obviously, can’t become anything so I don’t really think anyone is saying that women who have periods or men who masturbate are murderers, as was claimed in previous centuries.
Killian. Well said. They will twist things to suit their cause
Yes, pro-choice people twist things to suit their cause…..or we just say, women should make choices about their bodies. I couldn’t care less about semantical arguments about when life begins to be honest, I just want all the women I care about to be able to access abortion IF they want to.
Hang on – on this very page I have seen people arguing the pro life cause:
⢠claiming that C was Miss C
⢠claiming that women who were forced into abortion and later attempted or were successful at taking their own lives are somehow the same thing as women who don’t want to be pregnant threatening suicide if they cannot abort.
⢠making out that abortions in the UK are sought on the grounds of suicidal ideation when the UK do not require such a drastic situation, and grant abortion on mental health grounds.
⢠claiming that a standard EPC is an abortion, when it is actually the method by which an already aborted foetus is removed, which happens when a woman miscarries too.
⢠claiming that seeking legislation to cater for pregnancies diagnosed with fatal foetal abnormalities is the same thing as calling for any child with an abnormality to be aborted.
I think both sides are twisting things to be honest and it really does nothing for them. Martin, I’m not anti-abortion but I think it should be a medical procedure to be decided by doctors not a choice by women. I say that because I think there should be an actual medical reason for the procedure, abortion shouldn’t be used as a form of contraception because of the point I made above.
Killian do you know of any other medical procedure that is performed on a patient without the patient choosing to undergo that procedure? Read what you’re typing…
Killian, by definition ‘contraception’ means before conception, so that makes no sense.
Also, and I apologise if you find this crude, but even if that were the case, majority of women would never put themselves through it. Why? Because, most abortions are the result of taking the abortive pill. That results in a heavy period (it induces a miscarriage). It’s no walk in the park, would make a woman very ill with severe cramps, take a few days to ease, require cancelling work a lot of the time. Not to mention the expense. Trust me, it’s not as simple as you make it sound. Plus, who would fork over up to a thousand euro (back and forth to UK, medical costs, etc) when they could have used condoms/start on OCP? Sorry if that was TMI, but it bugs me when people think if abortion is on demand here, women will go get one on their lunch break. No, not plausible.
Fair enough Killian and Daniel, I can see that.
deirdre, I don’t understand your comment. What “they” am I a part of by commenting?
Hopefully situations like that will be very rare
I agree Christina, – hopefully these cases with be the exception, and very rare.
Because the alternative, does not bear thinking about.
“Hopefully” does not make for good law. This legislation is insane. It’s governmental posturing, hoping they’ll be seen as doing something on the abortion issue without tackling the elephant in the room that is the pro-life amendment. Enda Kenny said it all when he said this legislation gives “no new rights”.
It’s still not okay even if such cases are rare as hen’s teeth. Even one person being saddled with life-long avoidable disability because a couple of psychiatrists decided, on the basis of no objective, verfiable medical test whatsoever that the person’s mother was likely to commit suicide would be, and I fear will be, a national disgrace.
We laugh now at Charles Haughey’s contraception legislation and in years to come Irish people will look back in embarrassment at another “Irish solution to an Irish problem.”
I for one take mental health issues quite seriously. We need to stop pretending they’re any less damaging than physical health issues. It’s pretty insulting to infer that a qualified mental health professional wouldn’t be able to judge someone’s sincerity on it, and even more insulting to infer that women would claim to be suicidal in order to be pregnant for a shorter time. Obviously a woman carrying her pregnancy to term would be ideal but that’s not the alternative here. The alternative is they both die.
The widespread umbrage at the idea that women would feign suicidal ideation (and suicidal ideation is not a certain indication of completed suicide) seems to rest on a Victorian idealisation of our fair sex. Women are as capable of deceit as any other gender and it is possible that some will amplify their distress in order to procure a legal abortion. Talking of rare, I do think these of deliberate abuse of the system will be few and far between and in most cases confined to those who lack the financial means to access abortion services in Britain and elsewhere, where they would not be asked to surrender their privacy and dignity.
What is more worrying is that the legislation enshrines a very shaky link between pregnancy and suicide. This link will grow in the public imagination until it becomes fact. Human psychology is funny that way. Less funny will be lives lost because Irish girls will, in the years to shortly come, absorb this idea that pregnancy can IN ITSELF make you want to commit suicide.
As for your defence of the our qualified mental health professionals, if they’re that capable of detecting those of us at risk of suicide, wouldn’t we have lower rates than we do? Even capable psychiatrists admit (okay, only capable psychiatrists) that much of their work is more art than science. Psychometric tests and scales are not, and never will be, the equivalent of a blood test. The blood tests, for example, that were ignored in the case of Savita Halapanaver RIP.
‘Women are as capable of deceit as any other gender and it is possible that some will amplify their distress in order to procure a legal abortion. ‘ No way I’m reading past that. Have some respect for women, then we’ll talk
How many babies are aborted in the UK on the grounds of suicidal ideation Laura?
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/127785/Commentary1.pdf.pdf
Bottom of page 8 on that PDF…
And in case you don’t have a PDF Viewer…
“The vast majority (99.96%) of ground C only terminations were reported as being performed because of a risk to the woman’s mental health.”
Out of 189,931 babies aborted the Mental Health Risk excuse was used to murder 189,855 innocent lives.
Alot of women guilty of amplifying their distress in order to procure a legal abortion in the UK. Ireland is not a million miles away culturally from the UK.
Now can you begin to understand the reason ProLife people are up in arms about this?
“capable of deceit as any other gender ”
Jone made all genders equal by her statement and you translated that as no respect for women?
It was an unqualified non-medical profession that a psychologist employed by the IFPA who deemed victim X to be suicidal this girl never had an abortion but miscarried instead yet the rape victim of the C case did undergo an abortion which led to her attempting suicide numerous times & has openly admitted in an interview with Gemma Doherty in the Indo that the post abortion syndrome she suffered was like being raped all over again. The most recent incident of suicide due to abortion was Bollywood star Jiah Khan who had left a six page letter after her death. Post abortion women don’t count to pro-aborts because it puts a dampener on their flawed ideology.
Daniel,
Please read what you just posted. These abortions are sought under mental health grounds. This is not the same thing as a risk to the woman’s life from suicide.
do you realize what country you are living in..they will be jumping on the bus now for abortion because of suicide and dont they wont
Daniel, do you know the difference between being suicidal and having mental health issues? Also, please do tell me about your experience with being pregnant, and how it had no effect on you psychologically whatsoever, ta.
It was the latter part that got me
Marion.
The C case was the lady who went to the ECHR with A and B. the one that the ECHR told had been denied her right to be able to ascertain whether she qualified for an abortion or not.
You are talking about Miss C, who didn’t even want an abortion in the first place, and has said so since. Of course that would leave her suicidal, how dare someone else make that decision for her.
The Supreme Court were satisfied that sufficient evidence was heard by the High Court in the X Case, and they’re the ones trained to make that decision. Just in case the public disagreed we were given the opportunity to reverse that decision and we didn’t – hence why it needed to be legislated for.
You seem to have a lot of facts very muddled..
If you take mental health issues seriously I suggest you read this with an open mind, objectively. http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/healthandchildren/PatriciaCaseySubmission.pdf
What exactly is objective about Patricia Casey?!
She’s a woman and she would never lie, so you’d say.
The messed up thing is that I doubt she thinks she’s lying – she’s just determined to ignore all research which doesn’t fit within her world view.
Not at all you are wrong
But Dr Reilly everyone is in agreement that termination does not treat suicidal ideation. If it DID, you might be on to something! But as it stands, the mother may still feel suicidal after the termination and a child has died.
I can’t understand why are not having a national debate on the ethics of blinding a child or causing catastrophic injuries because an adult has threatened suicide. A dangerous precedent is being established here. As for Reilly saying it’s better to be born with devastating injuries than not at all, that’s a very moot point.
“An adult has threatened suicide”. Exposing your Neanderthal views on mental health, like all anti-choicers :)
If the woman is suicidal for reasons other than the fact that she is pregnant then the abortion wouldn’t be granted under this legislation.
This will only apply to women for whom the pregnancy is what is causing the suicidal ideation, not women who are suicidal in general.
The old advice is don’t make permanent decisions irreversible for temporary emotional reasons.
Suicide Ideation is not a treatable with abortion.
No one has ever claimed that abortion is a cure for suicide.
What we do know, and what the Supreme Court has determined, is that an unwanted pregnancy could very well cause a suicide.
An unwanted pregnancy could very well be the cause of someone taking their lives in suicide and indeed suicide ideation, no doubt about it, but abortion is a medical procedure, not a mental health cure for pregnant women with suicidal thoughts.
The notion that you can seperate someone who is willing to take their lives in the event of pregnancy from any other suicidal person is a fallacy.
All people who are suicidal or say they feel suicidal should be given the counselling and support for that issue.
That is going to be very very difficult to prove, that no underlying causes exist?.
I am anti abortion, I am “happy” that the government have chosen Termination rather then abortion.
I fear that termination of a pregnancy on the grounds of possible suicide, may increase the risk of suicide, Aftercare needs to be taken into account by the medical professionals, and need to be funded by our government.
I wouldn’t agree at all. Have you read this….objectively? http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/healthandchildren/PatriciaCaseySubmission.pdf
Legalise abortion then there would be no need for anyone to claim suicide as a reason!!!!. Who are we and how dare anyone decide whats right for a woman who finds herself in this situation. I’m sure she has enough on her plate without a bunch of know it alls bereating her on whats right or wrong . Let the woman decide whats best for her and her life – and KEEP YOUR NOSE OUT OF OTHERS BUSINESS!!!!
Yes Ally, let everybody keep their noses out of everyone’s business… when somebody is attempting to murder you on the street we’ll all keep on walking by, cause it’s none of our business really… Show some compassion for the innocent lives being disregarded like trash in the bin for heck’s sake. Are you really that cold hearted that you hold the whims of a woman over the life of a baby in the vast, vast majority of cases?
“Whims of a woman”
I have to say I find this statement quite offensive. I know women who have had abortions and every one of them considered all their options carefully before they made the trip. They took time to think about it and weighed up all the pros and cons, then they did it again, and again, and again.. They agonised over it for some time.
In the end they chose what was best for them, and their existing children and family situations.
It is not just “the whims” of women, this implies that pregnant women suddenly think “oh, I think I’ll have an abortion for the lols”, and that is quite despicable.
If we let women do things on whims….my god, the whole of society might collapse. There might be more divorces, less rapes, less domestic abuse, jesus, then there’ll be women in the workplace and they’ll have the vote too.
Which is the lesser evil?
That’s purely subjective and should be left to the parents to decide.
Exactly. I have the horrors of a case like this going public and people blaming the parents on any damage caused to fetus by inducing early delivery.
If the cap fits
Well, my mother had serious health issues while pregnant, went into labour three months early, would you like to blame her for that?
bigjake I’m waiting on your answer here. I must inform my mother of your disregard for her.
Laura, again no one has disregard for your mother, give it over with the assumptions that the whole world is out to get you or that the issue of pro-lifers arguing against your views is designed to harm your life chances personally.
You come across like a angry teenager.
He implied that women who’s pregnancies were induced due to health issues were worthy of contempt. I don’t think anyone’s out to get me.
Not contempt Laura, understanding.I assume you mean mental health issues, and therefore not medical health issues. Many people in crisis cover-up truths, or exaggerate their problems seeking to find a quick fix, to run away from, or someone to believe them, all that is being said here is there is no need for quick fixes in these scenarios as they can cause further harm and reduce the choices available to someone as they can’t undo whats done.
You’re not preaching anything new, Peace for All. I’m still waiting on you to tell me how you’ll force a woman to stay pregnant against her will
Hmmm, Peace for All says mental health issues are not medical health issues. I must stop going to my GP about my mental health problems so, I’ll go see a priest instead :)
Peace for All is very, very lucky to not have had mental health issues touch her life and to be able to dismiss it as “exaggerated”
If a woman is induced early as per the bill, she takes on the responsibility of whatever damage the fetus might suffer as a result. It’s a personal issue and no one has the right to criticise here.
Yes but it’s the baby that has to live with being blind or whatever other outcome comes out of it
So you’d prefer it to be dead? Because these are the options here. Anyway, not every premature baby has health problems for life.
Anyway not every…
Laura I seem to recall that your pro-choice political stance and mentality is about choice and that nothing like what happened to Savita, or any other problematic pregnancy, should ever be let happen again to ANY ONE WOMAN in this State, as it’s barbaric and this country is backward etc etc.
Well not every …..
What are you on about?
Oh my comment went over your head, well I’ll clarify it for you so.
Perhaps that your comments allow for a certain level of acceptable intentionally caused suffering for the greater good.
Call me an optimist but I’d rather two living people than two dead ones. Attribute it to my youth.
If you really were an optimist you’d know where pro-life people are coming from. If your optimism is that everything should be predicated on choice, you are not living life, just trying to control it.
I’m trying to control life by advocating for choice….is the hypocrisy of your comment lost on you
Not at all, life is life, to dictate who can terminate life is to control it. Having a choice is something for engaging in the capitalist markets, not for the life of another to be stopped or prevented for non-medical reasons.
I have no such reservations for the enactment of the supreme courts judgements on the x case,the sooner this is passed the better,the silent majority demands nothing less.
I need to read this in detail as there is no fear of any politican speaking in lay mans terms, Why do they have to make such a delicate issue a political football, We are talking a very sensitive issue here that effects real people….
I agree if the mother’s life is in danger i.e the pregnancy is causing life threatening complications then a termination is needed. I fear though that there will be a lot of women in the future claiming to be suicidal just to have an abortion. As an adopted person in Ireland, I could easily have been aborted. There are very little Irish babies being put up for adoption now because it is socially acceptable and the norm to be unmarried and going abroad to have an abortion is much easier now then it was when I was a baby. There are so many childless Irish couples going to different countries, spending thousands of euros adopting chinese, vietnamese, russian babies (to name but a few). It’s extortion and it’s sad because there are so many older Irish children in foster homes looking for permanent parents. I hope that this bill which is for people who are legitimatley suicidal and in life threatening conditions isn’t used by people in the wrong way. To see a repeat of Savita’s tragedy would be horrific. Once was too much. No need for a mother to go through such an ordeal only to die as well.
I think it would be far easier to get a Ryanair flight than to subject yourself to a panel of shrinks who wish to determine the validity of your (faked) suicidal thoughts..
Suicidal thoughts might be real in the mind of the person, but counselling and assistance can be given to anyone in any circumstances, and that’s the message one should put out about suicide ideation.
Otherwise you are validating the suicidal persons reasoning.
Have the baby , then decide what choice you need to make.
“Have the baby , then decide what choice you need to make.”
In other words women, you are free to make your own choice, right after you accept the choice Peace for All has made for you.
Yes absolutely, thanks John for supporting my message. Also it’s not my choice, it’s nobodys choice. However once the child is born there is choices available to women, so this notion of pro-choice is starting to appeal to me now.
Nice one!
Do you propose that women who are suicidal due to pregnancy be locked in a room for months until they’ve had the baby. Then what, the baby is born so the woman can do what she likes & commit suicide?
Being suicidal because she is pregnant would no longer apply.
Peace For All and forced pregnancies for women. Sounds like a utopia.
Sorry, dystpoia.
@Evie, you may be a practiced and convincing liar, experienced at tricking trained, professional psychiatrists and doctors, but most women aren’t.
You can’t get to a utopia Aindriu, but you can assist people in crisis with causing more suffering.
Pregnancy is a temporary state, so is suicide ideation.
I’m wondering if an early termination resulting in life long difficulties for the child will assist a woman in dealing with her suicide ideation in the long run.
@hotHanneke Vermolen
“Do you propose that women who are suicidal due to pregnancy be locked in a room for months until they’ve had the baby”
No not at all, I think that anyone presenting as suicidal should be treated with kindness and a friendly ear. Locking people in rooms is in your mind and likely how you view mental health scenarios, but most people that deal with helping those who are suicidal stay connected to them and supportive of them through their crisis, giving them the full facts and advocating on their behalf.
When the baby is born she will have been through lots of counselling and support to make a decision and choice at that stage, and furthermore at that stage it is her choice and nobody elses as to what choice she makes.
If she still remains suicidal then further counselling is required, and if so implies that the pregnancy was not the cause of the ideation, but that there a further circumstances leading to her current distress.
It’s not a social taboo anymore to be a single mother, or indeed giving a child for adoption. The only people that hold on to those taboos are pro-choice people trying to avoid a potential label.
Get your head out of the dark ages.
It is not at all how I see mental issues, I am not in the dark ages at all. My point was that a woman who is suicidal because she is pregnant does not want to be pregnant, in some cases counselling might help but in others the woman will have an abortion whether it be a legal safe one or an illegal unsafe one and other than locking these women up until they have had the baby there will not be another answer for them in order for them to have the baby. So please refrain from telling me I am in dark ages and do not know about mental health issues as I do know quite a bit about them from personal experiences within my family
Likewise, I have plenty of experience of mental health issues within my family, none of which have been locked in rooms for months.
As for the dark ages, in our new enlightened age we know that feeling suicidal is not taboo, there is lots of help available, you just have to help a person in crisis towards the light, not further complicate their mental health issues.
And in some cases (I agree it will be very rare) the “help” these women will need is an abortion. I think very very few women would put themselves through being examined by 3 practitioners whether they are genuinely or faking suicidal reasons. The ones who can afford it will just travel to the UK. As for the ones who can’t afford it: well not much choice available to them in my opinion. Mental health issues may not have the same taboo about them now as before but there is still a stigma attached and admitting you think you may need help is still a very difficult.
The stigma is only there as long as it persists.
If you read anything about self harm or suicide ideation, the cluster effect, and other ideas around the talking about suicide in those terms can have a knock on effect and validation to any potential suffers.
The key is to let people know there is light at the end of the tunnel, and the crisis is not the end of the world or a reason to take drastic measures.
Well, I’ll agree to disagree with you (without resorting to telling you that you are in the dark ages etc) as I said it will be rare but I do think abortion will be the solution for women who are suicidal due to being pregnant. And I think if it prevent even 1 death by suicide the it has to remain an option. I think it will be rare because I think most women will not let a situation get to that point whether it means travelling or counselling.
Indeed it is rare, but when teenage girls are being told amongst their peers that expressing suicide ideation is a way to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy then it becomes less rare. In fact self harming may even add to the proof of that. That’s why one needs to be careful where you put the “acceptable” suicide ideation narrative.
We need to change the view that pregnancy and child birth wrecks lives rather than compliments them. But you’ll never hear a feminist who cares about all women agree with that.
You can tell me all you like that I’m in the dark ages, but I’ll retort and say I live in the real world and have a broader experience with all these issues than whether its a political choice or not.
I wasn’t telling you you were in the dark ages I was saying I wouldn’t resort to saying things like that about you even though you say it about me. A teenager is so very unlikely to stand up in front of 3 practitioners pretending to be suicidal that I would say it would be almost 0.
I am going to leave this conversation now as I know that Pro choice people like myself are not going to swayed by your comments just like you are not to sway from your opinions.
It would be nice to live in an ideal world where pregnancy is like spending 9 months in a soft room full of kittens, with candlelight and soft music, but that is not true of all pregnancies.
Believe it or not, there are some women for whom pregnancy may cause existing health problems to worsen, or she may be high risk for complications – fatal or otherwise.
These women will most likely be using contraception, as they will wish to avoid putting themselves in danger, but in this country they are reluctant to sterilise women, very reluctant. Even when there are health reasons for doing so. Should these women be denied the intimacy of sex with their partners because their bodies aren’t cut out for pregnancy? Because contraception is not 100%.
We should be making contraception freely available and even sterilisation available for those who feel it is right for them, at least they are taking responsibility and trying to avoid pregnancy rather than have to abort one.
‘ but when teenage girls are being told amongst their peers that expressing suicide ideation is a way to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy then it becomes less rare.’
I assume you have some evidence of that and are not just damning young girls for the hell of it?
damning young girls for the hell of it?
Here’s a link to suicide rates in circumstances relating to pregnancy , miscarriage and induced abortions. It’s from a study done in Finland, covering data 1987-1994. I know that’s probably too long ago for you to take it seriously but nonetheless it’s a study done on a large dataset .
Lets hear you knock it then with your “all women are oppressed statistical analysis” or that something radical has changed in the intervening period that would mean if this study was repeated today it would show the opposite.
http://www.bmj.com/highwire/filestream/435918/field_highwire_fragment_image_l/0.jpg
And the full study published in the British Medical Journal.
http://www.bmj.com/content/313/7070/1431.full?sid=4c4def4a-8adf-4f30-9fbe-a3128ad26863
I love when someone thinks that she can pass off a study claiming suicidal women are more likely to access abortions as claiming that abortion affects suicide. Someone doesn’t now what correlation and causation are!
It’s a bit sad that you wouldn’t read it through.
Have you not read the study Nick, look again.
Spontaneous abortion is just as Giz describes induced abortion but, from what I remember of the two miscarriages I had, without the nausea. So Deirdre you should check yoir facts before getting on your keyboard.
Gibberish nonsense !
Why are we still talking about this? Surely a Woman is entitled to have a termination if she wants. Whose business is that? We are a backward kip of a country, where old People are dictating policy. The Roman Catholic organisation ate still way too powerful.
@rodrigo….Sure maybe we should just euthanise the “old People” so.
Exactly Sara. No respect for the older generation. Sure they are all backwards!! Life experience means nothing does it?
The Catholic church has been completely discredited and has no sway in this country any more. Opposition to this bill comes from a wide spectrum of all religions and none, doctors, psychiatrists, mothers, women who have been through abortion etc.
Maybe you think that a society which approves of abortions at 24 weeks because they are female, or have club feet (both routine in UK) is a good thing, but plenty of people do not, and would like their views to be taken into account in the shaping of a country’s laws.
It’s not old people. It’s criminals. Thieves, mainly, with a few sociopaths and religious eejits thrown in to keep it spicy.
Like we say, if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
Because (“supposedly”) celibate men have so much experience of being pregnant.
There are also many many women who have no regrets & have lived a happy & fulfilled life since their abortion. This is also down to proper care prior to the termination & post the termination. As most of the women who travel to the UK do so under a cloak of fear of becoming abused verbally and the subject of gossip etc, they do not go for the care & pre op meetings. Choices don’t have the same outcome for everyone but choice should still be available
I’m pro-choice, how ever I am not “pro-abortion”. I don’t want an abortion, however I want women to have a choice when it comes to something as life changing as having a child.
Please show me these people who are apparently now murderers because they condoned abortion?
Just going back to the comment about euthanising older people..
“it will require her consent to rent out her uterus?”
What’s this now Giz Pyro, are we commodifying the female body?
Rodrigo, why shouldn’t a woman be allowed to suffocate a newborn? What business is it of anyone else’s?
@ Peace For All is it any better than objectifying it? That’s what the anti-choice, forced birth fans do to a woman when she becomes pregnant. She’s reduced to the status of incubator. Her physical and emotional health are irrelevant. You could ask the likes of Sharon Hodgers and Michelle Harte, but they’re dead because the pregnancy was deemed more important than the woman.
We are respecting her as a woman Daisy. Incubator is your terminology, we call them mothers, women, sisters, aunties, daughters, friends. That’s what we call them.
Back to rad-fem 101 with you.
Also if you think someone is worth more than someone else how come you never speak out about Alesha Thomas who is dead through negligence by Marie Stopes Clinic?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/7966829.stm
You don’t respect her as a woman. If you did, you’d trust her with a choice, rather than putting forth the spurious notions that she’d decieve trained psychiatrists and medical personnel.
Alesha Thomas didn’t die in Ireland because of the anti-woman 8th amendment.
Desperate people take desperate measures. Your mantra of respect for women is empty, I’ve seen both you and Laura attack women of all ages in your comments, so don’t give me that bull that somehow you might have more respect for women than anyone else, remember your radical-feminism is just a political ideology, it doesn’t mean its right or immune from being full of holes or subject to valid cirticism.
Alesha died in the absence of an 8th amendment type protection of the unborn in the UK, still you are very quiet about her loss of life, is it because she was a black teenager or is it because she died at the hands of the corporate industry you support? How come no expression of compassion for this victim?
Yes. It was an excellent comment by Stephen.
Also Daisy men don’t lie and if you say they do then you don’t respect them. I’m just applying your logic as all genders are equal in that regard.
But you also attack people: or maybe you call what you do debating?
Peace, please show me where I’ve attacked women. Ever
Really, Peace for all? You’re pulling the racism card? Really? Alesha’s death is as terrible as Savita’s. Although, I’m surprised *that’s* the story you choose to publicise. Isn’t that the kind of story you should be promoting it as “See what will happen to you when you have an abortion. YOU’LL DIE!!!”
As for men lying. They’ll never be accused of decieving professionals in order to procure an abortion. The anti-choice mob repeatedly state that women are devious, conniving liars who can’t be trusted to make decisions regarding their own health and wellbeing.
Oh I’m sure men could lie to their vulnerable partners and tell them they’ll stick around if they have an abortion, but that probably would never happen because men don’t lie or manipulate, either do women, everybody is amazingly honest all the time.
Too right they will suffer damage. Let me see… disembowelment, dismemberment, decapitation. It is hard to imagine something more barbaric and inhumane than abortion.
89% of abortions = pill = heavy period. What is with you pro lifers and dismemberment? It’s so disturbing
It would help, Charles, if your knowledge of abortion wasn’t taken from a 30 year old booklet given to you by SPUC.
Yes, the majority of abortions are medical abortions which involve taking a pill to induce miscarriage. Even later term abortions are technically the injection that stops the foetal heartbeat.
Charles, listen up, here’s two stories, see if you can see the difference between the two.
Charles, a medical professional has sliced your loved one’s body open and removed their internal organs.
Charles, your loved one has died unexpectedly and a medical professional has performed an autopsy to determine the cause of death. This procedure was unfortunately result in your loved one’s body being surgically opened and several internal organs will be removed.
Laura. Abortion=heavy period????? Seriously girl you havent a clue what you are talking about. Losing a foetus at 10 or 12 weeks is NOTHING like a heavy period. I repeat NOT like a heavy period. Thats a lie…
I have had a miscarriage at 9 weeks and it was exactly like a heavy period
I’ve had a miscarriage at 9 weeks, and it was like an extremely painful, heavy period.
I have asked the women I know who have had medical abortions what it was like and that is exactly what they described, alongside serious nausea.
Deirdre, what are you on about? Considering your input into these threads I assume you know 89% of abortions are done with the pill, before week 10. I’ve seen them, and they look like heavy periods. Nothing disingenuous there
Oh dear Laura….. God help you
God’s not one for facts…and seemingly neither are you deirdre.
Same here. And for your information Deordre, losing a foetus is known medically as a spontaneous abortion.
Whether an abortion at around 12 weeks is spontaneous or induced, the result is the same, heavy period-like bleeding for a few days.
Deirdre, two women who’ve had miscarriages literally confirmed what I already knew.
Laura, anti choicers don’t do reality.
Laura, have you been involved in the abortion industry? Just wondering why you have only seen them up to 10 weeks and not thereafter?
I am happy to see that termination of a pregnancy, rather than abortion, is what is being legislated for here.
James Reilly implies that no babies will be killed under this new law. He says some people are misleading others. But he is the one who is misleading. If a woman presents at 19 or 20 weeks and a termination is allowed, that baby will die as it will not be able to survive a termination.
So why is Minister Reilly supporting this ill advised bill?
This is an Abortion Bill not a Pro -Life Bill!
Sadly deceit by Fine Gael.
I sincerity hope that Enda and his Fine Gael TDs will reflect on the damage they are planning to do to Irish Society which up to now is the safest Country in the world for babies and the protection of human life.
This Bill rather than save lives will kill innocent human beings. A baby is a human being and has legal rights
This legislation if passed will not save any lives!
Fine GaelConsider your ways!
Hello pro-abortion people. Why can you not show any signs of sympathy for the babies that will be left to linger in incubators with a variety of disabilities? Will any of you adopt these babies? This is the cruellest thing that I have ever heard of. If I saw this on a programme about Nazi Germany I would be appalled but you approve of this and our Government are actively going to bring this in. This is a cruelty issue.How could a suicidal woman suddenly lose all thoughts of suicide after their baby is born with such injuries???? Why can’t the State take care of the woman who might feel suicidal instead of packing her off for an abortion?
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