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FORMER MINISTER FOR communications Denis Naughten was warned that transferring the collection of TV licence fees from An Post to Revenue could devastate the country’s postal network.
The Communications Workers’ Union (CWU), which represents employees in the postal, telco and call centre sectors, wrote to the then-minister about its concerns in August.
The Oireachtas Communications Committee had previously recommended that the collection of the €160 annual fee be transferred to Revenue to crack down on evasion.
In its correspondence, which was released to Fora under the Freedom of Information Act, the union said that it was “seriously concerned” by media reports on the matter.
The CWU, which represents more than 80 TV licence inspectors, told the former minister that An Post faces “serious challenges” and that “any decision to reduce this revenue stream will accelerate the deterioration of its finances and services”.
“This will place a further burden on the viability of the post office network, which will enhance the business case to close them down,” general secretary Steve Fitzpatrick told Naughten, who recently resigned from cabinet.
An Post during the summer announced the closure of 159 locations following an agreement with the Irish Postmasters’ Union. The company recorded an operating profit of €8.4 million in 2017 following 2016′s €12.4 million loss.
TV licence sales accounted for just €1.46 million of its €840 million annual turnover, and the semi-state has since returned to profit following a cost-cutting exercise that resulted in more than 330 job losses.
The organisation announced in August that it’s axing up to 300 more jobs and is considering moving its current headquarters from Dublin’s iconic GPO building as part of the ongoing shake-up.
Evasion rates
In the letter to Naughten, Steve Fitzpatrick of the CWU said that TV licence staff had “worked extremely hard” to maintain sales during the years that followed the 2008 recession.
“Our members have worked hard in a low-key way during a period of public resistance to USC, property tax and water charges,” he said.
Fitzpatrick also questioned the accuracy of the stated TV licence evasion, put at roughly 14% of all eligible households in 2017 by the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment.
“With regard to claims, primarily by RTÉ, the union does not accept the level of evasion is as high as 14%, nonetheless, the union has assisted An Post in its efforts to maximise TV licence sales, achieving its sales target for 2018,” he wrote.
When asked by Fora to clarify these comments, a CWU spokesman said: “The union conservatively estimates that TV licence evasion rates are no higher than 10%, based on delivery points, house occupancy, residents with no TV and actual evasion records from TV inspectors, together with the improved sales, which have been achieved despite An Post being restricted to a yearly contract.”
In the letter to Naughten, Fitzpatrick also voiced the CWU’s frustration over the fact that An Post cannot access subscription data of cable and satellite TV providers, which he said “has greatly impeded the necessary improvement in collection”.
He also complained that, unlike in the UK, the legislation doesn’t extend to households that access television content through other devices such as laptops.
Denis Naughten resigned as communications minister following revelations about his private meetings with the head of the only bidder still in the running for the National Broadband Plan.
Written by Conor McMahon and posted on Fora.ie
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It should banned nationwide.
Worldwide
More or less already is Glenn, Ireland one of the last to change once again
Ah the tin-foil-hat brigade back in force. So what is the illuminati trying to do with fluride now? Rid the world of denchers?
Educate yourself. Don’t follow blindly. Fool.
Kevin, your statement can best be described as a lie. A lie that has been pointed out to you before but you still repeat it. The rate of Fluoridation is increasing over the last decade or so. In the US about half drink fluoridated water and the number is increasing as do people in Australia, NZ and many other countries. Some countries fluoridate salt as their people don’t drink tap water, e.g. Spain.
Except it’s not Kevin, most of Europe puts fluoride in it’s salt!
Most of Europe doesn’t even have a drinkable municipal water supply. Why would they bother with fluride.
Amazing statistics these whack jobs come up with.
Randy, unlike you I educate myself with actual peer reviewed science journals not crack pot conspiracy web sites.
Here’s a list of scientific and medical organisations that SUPPORT water fluoridation.
Academy of Dentistry International
Academy of General Dentistry
Academy of Sports Dentistry
Alzheimer’s Association
American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Pediatric Dentistry
American Academy of Periodontology
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Association for Dental Research
American Association of Community Dental Programs
American Association of Dental Schools
American Association of Endodontists
American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons
American Association of Orthodontists
American Association of Public Health Dentistry
American Cancer Society
American College of Dentists
American College of Physicians – American Society of Internal Medicine
American College of Prosthodontists
American Council on Science and Health
American Dental Assistants Association
American Dental Association
American Dental Hygienists’ Association
American Dietetic Association
American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations
American Hospital Association
American Medical Association
American Nurses Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Pharmaceutical Association
American Public Health Association
American School Health Association
American Society of Clinical Nutrition
American Society of Dentistry for Children
American Society for Nutritional Sciences
American Student Dental Association
American Veterinary Medical Association
American Water Works Association
Association for Academic Health Centers
Association of Maternal and Child Health Programs
Association of State and Territorial Dental Directors
Association of State and Territorial Health Officials
British Dental Association
British Fluoridation Society
British Medical Association
Canadian Dental Association
Canadian Dental Hygienists Association
Canadian Medical Association
Canadian Nurses Association
Canadian Paediatric Society
Canadian Public Health Association
Chocolate Manufacturers Association
Consumer Federation of America
Delta Dental Plans Association
The Dental Health Foundation (of California)
European Organization for Caries Research
FDI World Dental Federation
Federation of Special Care Organizations in Dentistry
Academy of Dentistry for Persons with Disabilities
American Association of Hospital Dentists
American Society for Geriatric Dentistry
Health Insurance Association of America
Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)
Hispanic Dental Association
Indian Health Service (IHS)
International Association for Dental Research
International Association for Orthodontics
International College of Dentists
Institute of Medicine/National Academy of Sciences
National Alliance for Oral Health
National Association of County and City Health Officials
National Association of Dental Assistants
National Cancer Institute
National Center for Fluoridation Policy and Research
National Confectioners Association
National Council Against Health Fraud
National Dental Assistants Association
National Dental Association
National Dental Hygienists’ Association
National Down Syndrome Congress
National Down Syndrome Society
National Foundation of Dentistry for the Handicapped National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research (NIDCR)
National Kidney Foundation
National PTA
National Research Council
Society of American Indian Dentists
US Centers for Disease and Prevention (CDC)
US Department of Defense
US Department of Veterans Affairs
US Public Health Service
World Federation of Orthodontists
World Health Organization
William all those organisations are secretly run by the Illuminati.
That’s why the rich and the wealthy drink so much bottled water; they keep away from the neurotoxin flowing from the tap. It keeps them smarter than everyone else and able to play mindgames with the little people.
Since Perrier was launched in the 1980s we’ve seen a massive rise in the stockmarket and the internet being invented. This was due to the elite ridding their systems of fluoride and being able to think more clearly than the rest of the population.
In concur, except you left out the Irish Water Board =D
The Illumanti pays me to comment here.
At least salt is an option. Shall I get my big list out ?
Fluoridation is a bad medical practice
1) Fluoride is the only chemical added to water for the purpose of medical treatment. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) classifies fluoride as a drug when used to prevent or mitigate disease (FDA 2000). As a matter of basic logic, adding fluoride to water for the sole purpose of preventing tooth decay (a non-waterborne disease) is a form of medical treatment. All other water treatment chemicals are added to improve the water’s quality or safety, which fluoride does not do.
2) Fluoridation is unethical. Informed consent is standard practice for all medication, and one of the key reasons why most of Western Europe has ruled against fluoridation. With water fluoridation we are allowing governments to do to whole communities (forcing people to take a medicine irrespective of their consent) what individual doctors cannot do to individual patients.
Put another way: Does a voter have the right to require that their neighbor ingest a certain medication (even if it is against that neighbor’s will)?
3) The dose cannot be controlled. Once fluoride is put in the water it is impossible to control the dose each individual receives because people drink different amounts of water. Being able to control the dose a patient receives is critical. Some people (e.g., manual laborers, athletes, diabetics, and people with kidney disease) drink substantially more water than others.
There’s 50 shall I post more?
Thanks for the amateur advice Kevin. Maybe we should listen to the experts who actually know about public health?? Or do you think they are all part of a nefarious plot to control us??
My head hurts when I see the hysteria generated by the anti-fluoride nuts.
We do lots of things to increase public health – for example – pasteurising milk. Why should we force this upon people? Because it saves lives.
Fluoridation improves dental health, especially that of the poor – who Sinn Fein claim to represent.
Noone is forcing anyone. On balance the presence of fluoride in water is beneficial. There really is very little of a downside. If a minority wish to take themselves out of the fluoridation system, they can do so for around €200, plus the cost of a few fillings for their kids.
Water is a basic human right and i just want to drink mine without artificially added fluoride. What’s wrong with that?
Why can’t you stick it in the salt if you want it so bad?
You have a right to water. You just don’t have a right to have it come into your home from a public system differently from anyone else. You are within your rights to remove the fluoride. The fluoride is added for clear beneficial reasons. Almost everyone whose water is fluoridated will have better dental health than those without – all other things being equal. Those people are more entitled to better dental health than you are to a customised public water supply or a water supply that suits your preferences.
You suggest adding it to salt instead, but actually we know that salt is something we overconsume. We don’t want to encourage people to be giving salt to young children. It’s like suggesting we should add it to beer. The use of fluoridated salt in other countries is due to the practice of not consuming water from the public water system. Adding to salt is at best, a least bad solution in such circumstances.
Waiting for your list of quack web sites Kevin. I suppose you couldn’t find ANY scientific and medical organisations that oppose water fluoridation? And skip the trade union from the US that does as it’s not a scientific or medical organisation.
It’s a proven neurotoxin. The lancet medical journal says so .
I’ve been tap drinking water all my life. What harm has it supposedly done to me?
Ignorance levels quite high throughout this whole debate, the ‘Poor/Disadvantage people, who are we talking about with sweeping statements like that?
It is the cost of Dentistry in Ireland that prevents people, families accessing it. Yes real people, the one’s you buy your coffee off, meet on the bus to work…
Dentistry in Ireland I think is over 30/40 % more expensive than the rest of Europe.
My 15yr old daughter, baby teeth never fell out, her adult teeth grew up & she just got 5 baby teeth removed, with no roots & a enamel protection glaze over 2 teeth, to protect from requiring future fillings. Cost €575
Middle class parents travel up the north for their children braces ???
Cost Dentistry the root cause this problem not the ‘poor people’.
How could someone out work pay for this treatment.
The fact that it is more expensive to buy fresh produce than frozen shit part of the problem as well.
Sorry guys this one ain’t the Poor People fault !!
In huge doses. Pure Water will kill you if you drink too much of it. Luckily “pure” water doesn’t exist in nature, it always has chemicals naturally dissolved in it.
The lancet didn’t say so, the lancet is a journal that publishes scientific articles. If you read the article you can fit it with all the rest of your scientific evidence about fluoride. The paper does NOT address water fluoridation, or the tiny doses that are added to water.
You folks really need to edit out the “Chocolate Manufacturer’s Association” and the “National Confectioners Association” if you are going to call it a list of scientific and medical organizations.
Your stats are all wrong as well. In the US the fluoridation rate is around 73%. In Canada it is down to about 33% from a recent high of 45%.
More people drink artificially fluoridated water in the US than in the rest of the world combined. Perhaps you could name some of the “many other countries” where fluoridation is increasing.
“The lancet medical journal says so .” I don’t think you understand how journals work. If by that you mean an article which was in the Lancet and was trumped by the anti-fluoride crowd. It did not say what you think it says. It merely notes, in passing, the self evident and completely uncontroversial; in high quantities it’s a dangerous neurotoxin. So is Chlorine (also in water), so is Vitamin A.
“You folks really need to edit out the “Chocolate Manufacturer’s Association” and the “National Confectioners Association” if you are going to call it a list of scientific and medical organizations.” <– You don't actually address the point which was being raised but quibble over two members of the list. You have a long list of scientific organisations there.
Gill B why the hell didnt you shop around ? 575€ is an insane price for 5 extractions and 2 fissure seals , bigger eejit you to pay it , max you should have paid 350 to 400 for it, which you would have if you looked around a bit
William, of course you are correct but there is a blind mass of people who have been bought in by this totally unfounded scaremongering around fluoridation.
Ireland is best example of one country with two jurisdictions who do and don’t fluoridate. The level of caries in the North is much higher.
Some scaremongering links fluoridation here with higher rates of prostate cancer. The reality is that there is no link and we screen much better for this disease here.
Countries would like to fluoridate more but there water scheme set-ups make it less viable than here. That’s why the salt option is used instead.
Cue the red thumbs and ill informed comment such as WHO being against it which they are not.
Hey William why did you post on your list that the world health organisation supports fluoride when they are against it? hahaha! Troll
James show me the link that shows they are for it because I can only find ones saying they are against
Ah now kev, at least read the links you post. From this WHO statement (1 paragraph down)
“Guidance is particularly needed because fluoride is found in all natural waters at some concentration.
Low concentrations are good for teeth,
but excessive concentrations can lead to debilitating disease, such as skeletal fluorosis”
So the WHO is in favour of low concentrations of fluoride in water. Thanks for giving us that information.
Kevin I know they support fluoridation of water supplies – that is a fact and the article you linked here supports this not the opposite. Fluorosis has been found to be harmless while aesthetically not so pretty as shiny white teeth.
The very fact you wish to interpret this article as such shows your blind opposition to the fact that all studies on state suooorted water fluoridation is beneficial and economically advantageous. Any dentist will tell you this while having a perverse incentive to oppose it given the extra work poor dental health presents to them.
I accept you are passionate on this but you are wrong here and so are Sinn Fein.
Sorry, that’s in the 4th Paragraph. The WHO recommend a value of 1.5 parts per million, which is nearly twice the Irish value of 0.8 parts per million.
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/fluoridesum.pdf
The statements of the CDC, WHO etc are all pretty easy to find. I also suggest you read the reports of the Irish expert body on fluorides and health.
http://www.fluoridesandhealth.ie
The board (doctors, dentists, legal/ethics experts, consumer representatives, biochemists etc) answer lots of questions in the “expert body response to Dublin city council July 2013″. I don’t think you’ll get a more relevant answer to the questions you may have about fluoridation. Please read it, and see what you think. It seems like a reasonable body if people, who answer the questions of politicians.
My point is that cutting and pasting a list of organizations that endorse fluoridation without even reading the list or investigating their statements and whether they have done any research themselves, is doing exactly what many of those groups have done: Endorsed someone else’s endorsement. Endorsements are not science. The earth used to be flat and “bleeding” was a widely endorsed medical practice for 2000 years.
My other point is that the writer makes statements that aren’t true while calling someone a liar.
Yes, bleeding was a treatment for 2000 years. Then science started.
Of course, bleeding is a “natural” treatment, with as much evidence in favour of it as the angel therapy and the other fantasies promoted by the scientifically illiterate.
It’s funny how the crackpots go on about the belief that the world was flat and blood letting (not bleeding) as if it were tarot card readers and conspiracy theorists who set the record straight.
Evidence-based methods and critical thinking gave us knowledge that the earth was round dating back to ptolemy in ancient egypt. And it was modern science that gathered the evidence required to end the practice of blood letting. It was ignorant whackjobs who opposed both of these things.
Likewise, today, it is the ignorant whack jobs opposing fluoridation in spite of the evidence and scientists advising us to fluoridate our water!
It is people like you David, who burned the library of Alexandria to the ground.
Very Good research, Problem is I personally do not wish to ingest flouride in any shape or form regardless of the good and bad reports out there, I do not have that option with drinking water from my tap other than to not drink it.
Roy, sorry to bring you bad news but Fluoridate occurs naturally in water. It’s also in the food you eat. Fluoride is a very common mineral. You can’t avoid ingesting it.
Good. Theres no need in this day and age to flouridate water. Its also unlawful for any state to mass medicate its population, which is what flouride is classed as.
Alex White promised that it would be looked at by an international group. Another promise broken.
Irish water will be posting out a booklet in September look for people to fill in the blanks , pps numbers , bank details and so on , do not fill this in , if you fill in this form you are entering into a contract with IIrish water a registered private for profit company . Return to sender , don’t be fooled .
Yes, don’t be fooled………by Keith O’Brien. The law is the law. Keith won’t pay the fine for you.
politicians taking it upon themselves to add a toxic, carcenogenic drug, to all our water, over ruling best science and medical advice.. the gov will even pull research funding from facilities if they don’t return the results the pro fluoridation head cases want.. the Gov have reverse osmosis water filters for their frinking water in the dail, which removes the fluoride from their water.. these are also in many civil service and HSE offices, all at the tax payers expense… quite expensive they are too.. i wish i could afford one…
“if you fill in this form you are entering into a contract with IIrish water a registered private for profit company”
That sounds like “freeman on the land” BS. We get every kind of crazy in here!
I always find it funny how people attribute legal advice as “freeman theory” without ever checking contract law for themselves. Not as if you don’t have access to google. Well done Jack. I bet Enda loves you.
Multiple expert groups of scientists have examined the question of fluoridation. They are pretty much universally in favour.
Stop with the rubbish of cancer/death/mind control. Lots of things are bad for you if you have too much or too little. You are showing your complete lack of any scientific knowledge with your rubbish claims.
LMAO I actually have studied contract law under the direction of a barrister as part of my computer science degree. I still have my giant expensive text by Kelleher and Murray. The only problem is this has absolutely nothing to do with contract law. A government does not need an agreed contract to impose taxes and tariffs on its residents. That’s where the Freeman BS comes into it.
Ok Ted, I forgot how we lived in a dictatorship. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Justin you need to get out and get a bit of fresh air , your nonsense bout the Dail water filters is the one of most bizarre fantasies I ve heard in a while , i heard they also have buttons in an office in the Dail that affects all our moods ……… as for your statement that fluoridation is done against best medical and scientific advice , another fantasy , care to back the statement up with any proper research ?
There is an Irish group, setup by Micheal Martin as health minister in 2004.
Have a look at their composition and documentation, it all seems pretty reasonable. They present lots of international reports, and answer questions relevant to ireland.
http://www.fluoridesandhealth.ie
I don’t think we need another expert group setup, as this one is already on place. In any case, all experts on this issue seem to agree that water fluoridation is a reasonable public health policy.
removing the VAT on toothpaste might be a related idea worth looking at. It makes no sense to charge 23% on toothpaste while, at the same time, subsiding fluoride (at some cost) in main water systems. A classic example of non joined-up thinking. It would probably make sense to subsidise the toothpaste rather than tax it.
Poor and disadvantaged children don’t use proper dental hygiene. Reducing the price by 1/4 would hardly have much effect.
Removing Fluoridate would probably result in a 25+% increase in dental cavities and extractions. Poor and disadvantaged children that have so many rotten teeth on a DAILY basis in Ireland must be given a general anesthetic to remove their teeth. If fluoridate is removed that number will increase. Anti-fluoridation is a attack on the poor and disadvantaged by scientifically illiterate middle class hippies.
William makes a point….You could use the school system to educate them on proper dental hygiene, supply parents with tooth paste and toothbrushes yearly with some of the funds spend on child benefit and monetarily incentivise children at the dentists office.
€20(or similar incentive) for every 6 month check up they attend and make it with no cavities required ought to install some good habits by the time they’re teenagers.
May not work but has been shown in other circumstances and certainly worth a pilot study.
Schools have enough to do with out that. It is the job of the parents to show their children how to brush their teeth!!!!
William, your assumptions and assertions don’t really demonstrate much literacy of the science of economics or reason. For the record, I didn’t state any position on the issue of fluoridation. I simply pointed out a glaring inconsistency in dental health policy.
Everytime there is an anti-government story the same trolls show up to defend them. Give a rest, you’re not fooling anyone.
“Everytime there is an anti-government story the same trolls show up to defend them”
No, every time there is an anti-science story educated people show up and make you look stupid.
Peter, removing VAT on toothpaste would have ZERO effect on the dental hygiene of the poor no matter how much you wish otherwise.
William,
I’ll bet you kept the brush that Haughey gave you.
@Drew. I have memories from both primary and secondary school of been taught how to brush my teeth. Clearly some people don’t listen.
But water fluoridation needs to be stopped!
About time
Well past the time!
Two useless comments.
Someone’s grumpy!
That has as much chance of happening as a united Ireland…
So what happened to the anti-Water Fluoridation vote? Did the morons chicken out?
The question about whether fluoridation is beneficial or harmful, as far as I’m concerned, is a scientific one. And frankly there is absolutely no evidence to say that fluoridation is harmful at the level in our water supply (there are some studies to see what happens if it is at toxic levels, i.e. increasing the dose until it becomes toxic, however there are very few things, including water itself, that don’t have a toxic level).
There is evidence to say that it is beneficial for preventing cavities in children. It may be that the fluoride that is in toothpaste is enough that putting it into our water has no benefit, but as far as I know, no study has looked at that.
There is also the more general question of the ethics of mass medication without consent, and indeed what consent even means in this situation.
But this issue seems to be only approached from a political point of view. Used by politicians to masquerade as if they are listening to and catering to the concerns of the ordinary people (though notable less able to listen when it comes to things like the banking crisis), to garner support. This isn’t an issue for political debate without first taking the scientific evidence into account. Something usually lacking from this particular issue.
Exactly. The only thing a public debate is going to identify is how many anti-science ignoramuses we have in our population. The removal of fluride from the water will just make Ireland look like a backwards little country with a population devoid of critical thinking skills or a basic understanding of science.
Agreed. Not to mention the trials which the media got their information from and sent the conspiracy theorists into a stir were confounded and biased.
There is nothing to suggest fluoride is harmless to us in the levels we consume it.
*harmful
Exactly. The hippies in west cork manage to drum up a storm, and now Sinn Fein, the self proclaimed party of the poor, want to stop a public health intervention that is most beneficial to that group.
Shame on this manipulative ignorant politicians for drumming up fear for political gain.
Dave your account was made today grow up
Who are these hippies in West Cork that you are harping on about ?
No it wasn’t. I’m a fully grown boy. Thanks very much.
“I’m a fully grown boy ” whom has called people who “drummed up a storm” hippies …Name one of these hippies ,please ?
West cork is full of hippies. Most of them would delight in the label “hippy”. They have managed to drum up a storm about fluoride causing mind control, nazism, cancer in children etc. They managed to convince the scientific minds that sit on local town councils of these terrors.
The next target is vaccines, to be replaced by mandatory reflexology and ear candling.
Check out the girl against fluoride if you want to see some crazy hippy stuff – anti fluoride, anti vaccine, anti contraceptive pill (because it causes gay).
David
I’m from West Cork (born and bred) and I ain’t no hippy .. The two towns that have become anti-fluoride are Bantry and Clonakilty.. Fluoride-free status is achieved through a minimum of six businesses in a town having reverse osmosis fluoride filtration installed. Just six,David.. not much really,is it ?!
I’m sure you’re not a hippy – no offence meant to the natives of west cork. However, it is well known that lots of people move to west cork because of its natural beauty.
Many of these people have lots of money, but little scientific knowledge. Perhaps the ignorant unwashed would be a better name if I’m in the business of name calling.
Oh and it was the town councils of these places which voted against water fluoridation. I’m not sure what sort of scientific advice they took, or what sort of expert committee they used to make this public health call.
Removing rat poison from our water system can only be a good thing…
While they are at it they should pass a motion on GMO labeling on all supermarket food products.
We don’t have GMO here?
Rat poison. I challenge you to quantify just how much flouridated water it would take to kill a rat.
I’m anti GMO just saying I’m pretty sure its not sold here
@Colin: what does that matter Colin? you want rat poison, off you go and enjoy whatever amount you like… the rest of us don’t want it….
There is nothing WHATSOEVER wrong with or dangerous with GMOs. We’ve been creating GMOs for 100,000 years.
Justin. Water is also poisonous at sufficient levels. Enjoy avoiding water.
wow.. master of deciet… obvious troll is very obvious today….
Read about Dihydrogen Monoxide below and how dangerous that chemical is. It kills tens if not hundreds of thousands of people every year. In China in 1975 it killed over 171,000 people in one mass release and yet most people know nothing about it.
Let’s see who the troll is. Please name the members of the “Fluoridation Board of Ireland”. This should be good.
Some animal feeds are GM. There’s legislation for labeling GM food too.
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/gmos/labelling_of_gm_food.html
William, evil stuff. They even allow fish to swim in it…….and humans…….and whales …….and ducks. Banning it would certainly solve the Earth’s population problem.
heres a better question, why do you insist that other people you don’t even know, who don’t want it should be forced to take it? you must be in young Fine Gael or something? tghe next in line of the paracites in government who wants to live a paracitic lifestyle off the backs of an involinterally drugged nation, is it? correct me if i’m wrong.. you’re a young FG’er alright…
I am totally pro GMO. No drug or food has ever been put through as much testing as GMO products, which have continuously proved to be safe.
GMO will also lead to reduced levels of pesticides, herbicides and chemical fertiliser due to hardier plants (some of which have been shown to have harmful effects). Also this will reduce run off into
our waters and help conserve wildlife and water quality. Farmers will have to work machinery less leading to a lower carbon footprint. On top of this there will be a higher yield which means more work available and strenghtening of the economy. Also price drops in food will occur and hunger issued worldwide can be addressed.
If you really want to make a good change in the world, GMO is the way.
Why are you anti-GMO. Is it just because it sounds scary and you don’t understand it or have you researched the topic?
No one is forcing you to take it. You are perfectly within your rights to create a private supply of water, or add a fluoride filter to your main tap.
idiot FG troll.. why is there not one toxicoligist on the Flde board? i’m done talking to you.. troll..
And halal labelling. I want no dental flourosis and bone cancer AND no ritually killed food.
Name who is on the “Fluoridation Board”.
Dear Justin. For you, I’d suggest a lithium supplement. There’s a good chap.
Gmo is here legally in 6 crops
You have been fooled by Monsanto. So terribly, terribly fooled. Of course they want you to think that GMOs will “save the planet” but that’s not the case at all. Injecting insecticides into plants so that the insect’s stomachs explode when eating them? No we have not been doing that for thousands of years. Monsanto loves patents. Patenting a seed so that it must be purchased, and cannot be regenerated- now why would a company promoting “saving the planet” want to make money in such a way? Because it’s not about people, it’s about profit and ultimately controlling the food supply.
You have been fooled by your own inability to tell the difference between a good source and a crackpot conspiracy web site. Get some critical thinking skills.
Rachel, did you just make this nonsense up yourself or did you read it from a web site who’s author just made it up? Maybe from a web site where they copied the other web sites posting this nonsense? Classic conspiracy theory nonsense. I suppose you can’t supply any evidence to support this tirade? No? Doesn’t surprise me.
I’m all for fluoride. All scientific evidence indicates that people are living longer and healthier lives and in particular retaining their teeth much later in life.
The types of people arguing against it are the same scientifically illiterate demographic arguing against vaccinaton… And the arguments a show an appalling misunderstanding of chemistry, you can take the molecules of almost anything and rearrange them into a combination that presents a harmful substance.
We mass medicate the population for a variety of dietary deficiencies iodised salt to prevent thyroid diseases, vitamin D and calcium in children’s foods to prevent rickets… The vast majority lower class people cannot be trusted to take care of their teeth or feed themselves or their kids a healthy diet.
This is a socialised country… We pay for their medical cards, so society is within it’s rights to use scientifically proven methods to both help people and reduce the burden to the taxpayer. Need I remind you that the country is running a deficit and making budget cuts. The money not wasted fixing teeth can and should be spent treating non-preventable medical conditions and disabilities.
Dear Drew. Only crackpots are allowed to comment here. Unless you join the war against the periodic table, please take your fact based opinions elsewhere.
You’re aware that there is fluoride in toothpaste, yes?
You call a whole sector of society scientifically illiterate yet bring no science yourself to back your claims. Funny that
I’m no crackpot, but there is more than enough in toothpaste. The inclusion of fluoride in our water supply makes it practically impossible for people who do not want to ingest it to avoid it (scientifically illiterate or not). It should be removed on that basis alone.
@Drew: you are wrong.. all cooked up reports say its good… the head of the fluoridation board of ireland, is not a toxicologist or even a medical professor, he is a pf of law… shows you what the Government are concerned about, after all the damage they know they have done…
Kevin, we have evidence from those county councils that already opposed water fluoridation. They are obviously scientifically illiterate. No doubt this will be added to by the morons in Dublin County Council tonight who vote against fluoridation.
Yes I am aware it is in toothpaste.
Interesting fact of the day for you many of these crackpots describe flouride inaccurately as ‘rat poison’ when in fact their referring to an entirely different compound flourophosphates.
Since vast swathes of the worlds drinking water naturally contains aresnic an ACTUAL heavy metal used as rat poison and have to be monitored to make sure the levels are safe. It’s amusing to see them lobby to have it removed when it’s there anyway.
Practically impossible my arse. If even half of those who waste time spouting nonsense were even half as concerned about flouride, then these would be in most households by now. http://cleanwater.ie/products-page/flouride-filters/fluoride-undersink-filter-kit/
There’s absolutely no such thing as the flouridation board of Ireland or I’m pretty certain any country.
I’m sure there are many depts of public health, Irish medicines board or environmental protection/water quality standards organisations, boards or depts. But there is no such thing as a board of flouridation
If you’d like to prove me wrong you’re welcome to try and find their offices.
Fluoride occurs naturally in water. Fluoridate is a part of the environment. It’s natural.
A less known substance added to the water supply is dihydrogen monoxide.
Guacamole and apples also contain high levels of fluoride and should be banned.
That stuff is deadly in sufficient quantities!
It is the leading cause of dilutional hyponatremia.
William you are wrong. Fluoride added in irish water comes from cemifloc and is in no way natural
People are living longer? Haha u must be joking. Ireland has more cancer than anywhere else pal. And people b4 us were healthier and were living longer life. Why can’t u go and study that fluoride is poison and gets stronger with boiling. And GMO,s are bad for any living organism even for the soil. Go do some research and then come here comment.
Dear God. fluoride is fluoride is fluoride. It is an ion on an element, fluorine. It is either fluoride, or it’s not.
How much fluoride is in the fluor that is a primary ingredient in baking a sliced pan?
I think it is pure fluor.
We should ban bread also.
So are lead, arsenic, mercury, cadmium…….
Yes toothpaste does contain fluoride and it clearly says on the (Oral-B) package: “for adults and adolescents 12 years or older”.
The civil service moves at some pace around here. How long ago did calls begin on this?
Welcome move, waste of 4 million euro a year to taxpayer.
Water fluoridate saves the state far more than that because of the reduction in dental caries. The children of the Republic have better teeth than in NI where’s it’s not used.
That’s because we don’t boil our potatoes for as long as they do in Northern Ireland and the crunchier spuds sharpen our kids’ teeth. Nothing to do with fluoride.
William you’ve no evidence to say that is the case nor can you find any.
There are countless scientific studies demonstrating conclusively that fluoridation reduces the intances of dental caries in the population.
Here is one reporting from the US reported in PubMed:
“Fluoridation of community water supplies dramatically reduces the incidence and prevalence of dental caries”
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/8897745
There is a web site you should really learn how to use. scholar.google.com
Learn that web address.
Also learn about the stupidity of confirmation bias and selection bias if you care about finding the truth in a world wide web of lies!
“In 2000 the Department of Health commissioned another National
Survey of Children’s Dental Health, again with the main aim of
monitoring the effectiveness of water fluoridation (Whelton et al., 2006).
This study included a contemporaneous survey of children’s dental
health in Northern Ireland, where water fluoridation has not been
introduced (Whelton et al., 2006). … The decline in the period 1983/’84 to
2002, however, is considerably greater in the fluoridated community.”
The implication that confirmation and selection bias’ only occur in people who disagree with you is something you should reflect on.
What’s to debate, it’s a fecking no brainer. Stop poisoning, sedating us and lowering our IQ to suit your evil agenda.
Stop listening to cranks and crackpots like Girl against fluoride and Declan Waugh.
daisy, you’re a fool… you know nothing about this, unlike those you seek to detract from with ignorant put downs and nothing meaningful to back it up with…
I can make my own mind up on things, don’t need the opinions of others, especially not yours.
Derek, what’s your “opinion” on the recently discovered Higgs Bosun? Do you normally fly your own plane or trust an expert? Do you pull your own teeth or use a dentist? Do you actually have a “mind” in any real sense of the word? Anyone who thinks that fluoridation “Stop poisoning, sedating us and lowering our IQ ” isn’t capable of forming an opinion. Admit it, your a delta semi-moron.
Derek, your lower IQ is not related to fluoride in the water I’m afraid.
Yeah Derek, you certainly don’t need the opinions of experts who know anything about chemistry do you? Whack jobs never do.
LMAO
I have a hypothesis. I reckon that fluoride increases IQ! It’s evident from the fact that only Dumb @rses are speaking out against it. They obviously don’t drink tap water!
Your low IQ is an achievement all of your own.
It is indeed. And despite that I’m still smart enough to differentiate a crackpot conspiracy claim from actual science!
Derek Durkin: But how, since your mind has been affected by fluoridation, can you know that your thoughts are actually yours?
Maybe you actually don’t think fluoridation is harmful, but the years of ingesting fluoridated water has made you think you do?
This is a complex issue.
Ronan, it’s not a complex issue in the slightest. Hundreds of the World’s government, scientific and medical organisations support water fluoridation. NONE do not.
I think you missed my subtle attempt at satire there William. :-)
I’m glad that’s what it was but the loony anti-fluoridate brigade believe in some serious nonsense so there was no way to tell. :)
e.g. Did you know Fluoride is the cause of the increase in cancer in Ireland?
[It's actually because cancer is primarily and old person's disease and the life expectancy has gone up so more old people to get Cancer.]
Ireland has a higher percentage of ginger people with freckles that suffer from sunburn. This is no co-incidence, it is obviously due to fluoridated water. It bleaches the foetus in the womb.
The proof: In sub-Saharan Africa where they don’t fluoridate the water there are hardly any gingers. Q.E.D.
Time we put a stop to this fluoridated baby madness and allow people decide for themselves if they want their offspring to have the natural tanned Irish complexion of the Corrs, Eddie Hobbs and Marty Morrissey.
About time. We can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Presumably you are referring to Brig. General Jack Ripper (at the bottom of article)
yeah, obviously 30 red thumbs and counting didn’t get it.
It’s not that they don’t get it J, it’s that you got it wrong. It’s not the communists, it’s the space aliens!
I wonder will they invite a single scientist to the meeting. It’s easy for anyone to appeal to the terror of the masses by quoting one study (in some ridiculous journal that no one ever heard of).
I doubt the public officials will have read all the data surrounding Fluoride in drinking water.
I’m of the opinion that Fluoride is probably safe, however I have’t gone off and read all the data, so we need an objectively who has. That’s who we should place faith in, not some recently elected public official who is using it to drum up support or keep promises.
Quackwatch has a good article on the anti-fluoride wackos. See here http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/fluoride.html
It has been classed as a neuro toxin by quite a few studies, not surprising seeing as it was first put into practice by the nazis in the concentration camps, it should be removed immediately, I hope there is follow up on this.
It wasn’t used by Nazis, that’s a myth. See here
Will you promise to stop spreading those lies from now on?
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4058
http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/politifact-truth-about-fluoride-doesnt-include-nazi-myth/1195653
“A Holocaust historian, authors who have researched the topic and even an anti-fluoridation activist repudiate the claim. It’s a myth. And it’s also Pants on Fire!”
PS It’s interesting that as many people gave you green thumbs as red without checking your lie.
That’s not actually true on any count Joe.
Firstly the only study I’ve ever seen that “classed it as a neurotoxin” was a small scale one which compared the IQs of sample populations of children from two different villages. It found the average IQ in one was lower than the other and concluded, WITH NO OTHER CHECKS OR RESEARCH WHATSOVER, that the fact that the water in one village contained flouride was the cause. Any other article I’ve ever seen that makes the ‘neurotoxin’ claim can be tracked back to simply citing the same badly conceived study.
Also, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Nazis used flouride in concentration camps. The claim seems to have been invented in 1950s America, running parallel to the campaign that claimed flouridisation was a Communist conspiracy.
It is a neurotoxin, in huge doses. like pretty much anything, if you take a massive dose, it will be back for you.
Check out a recent study in the Lancet that the scientifically illiterate seem to say is an argument against water fluoridation. (It’s no such thing, the doses needed to be toxic are huge)
Water naturally contains fluoride, the amount in water is controlled so there is the right amount.
“by quite a few studies” I like the way you say this with such self-assurance, as if you actually bothered yourself to read a study. As if you even know how to find them. It has been known for a very long time that it is dangerous in large quantities. So is Vitamin A. _Everything_ is dangerous depending on a dose. 7 Litres of water kills people. 200g salt = 50% of people are dead. 12g of Caffeine can be fatal, less than half a gram of nicotine.
Very high levels of depression in countries using fluoride in their water and Ireland has the highest suicide rate in Europe.Wake up and stop putting it in the water.
Highest rates of suicide are in rural areas which generally have private non-flouridated water compared to cities. So that doesn’t really tally with your theory, now does it.
Plenty of suicide in dublin
Ireland by far doesn’t have the highest suicide rate in Europe.
Reading this forum, perhaps fluoride does lower IQ though.
Plenty of suicide in Europe.
All water in Ireland is fluoridated. except areas in cork now apposed.
Private water systems are generally not fluoridated.
Cork councils voted against fluoridation, but local gov has no authority when it comes to fluoridation so their vote meant nothing at all (in the real world)
The following is a list of scientific, medical and dental organisations that support water fluoridation. Would any of the scientifically illiterate wackos that oppose water fluoridation supply one that lists scientific, medical and dental organisations opposed to water fluoridation? I wait with bated breath.
Her’s the list http://www.dentalwatch.org/fl/orgs.html
Read paragraph 4 of the WHO statement
“Low concentrations are good for teeth”
Stop putting fluoride in the water! According to anti fluoride campaigners, it gives you gay and Downs Syndrome.
Yeah, and I read a report from some mental scientist that if ye drink fluoride in yer water, then yer ass falls off.
It’s true, I’m telling ya. I read it on de internet!!!!!!!!
Wouldn’t it be nice if the decision was made based on scientific and dental experts, rather than politicians jumping on board any old band wagon to gain votes? It’s embarrassing that this movement has been led by a girl in a pink bikini and a pair of fairy wings, certified in angel healing, who believes diluting compounds until they don’t exist in solution anymore and ‘forceful striking on an elastic body’ (homeopathy) can cure disease.
http://geoffsshorts.blogspot.ie/2013/11/girl-against-fluoride-vaccine.html
Hi leonie. Would you happen to have any experience with homeopathy?
I have. In fact homeopathy, which you in disgustingly disrespected, does work.
From a perfectly healthy,sane,non hippie, young Irish girl.
Ps, floridation is mass medication.
Hi Louise.
I experience homeopathy every day when I drink tap water. Unlike you though, I don’t pay for it. Luckily for me, my tap water only remembers the molecules of all the things that make me feel better and hydrates me, rather than molecules of all the poop that might make me feel a bit nauseous if I thought about it.
Fluoridation, like chlorination, of tap water is a measure to reduce disease. We control fluoride levels in the water because we understand that between 0.7mg/L and 1.2mg/L fluoride in drinking water reduces tooth decay (disease) by up to 40% safely and cost effectively. We add chlorine to water because we understand that it reduces our exposure to bacterial pathogens. If you want to call this ‘mass medication’ go right ahead…but clean, safe drinking water is key to our health and longevity. If you want to opt out, that’s absolutely fine. Catch rain in a bucket…but do understand that there are high risks to drinking untreated water, and also risks associated with drinking water that has been filtered through RO filters.
Would you happen to have any experience with science? I have. In fact…science tells us that homeopathy is bullshit. If you have evidence to suggest otherwise, there is $1million up for grabs. If you can prove that science is wrong, and that homeopathy is actually magic…get in contact with these guys.
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
Your fortune could be made.
Cheers,
From a perfectly healthy, tap water guzzling Irish person.
p.s. Homeopathy is nonsense. Sorry :(
http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/
Homeopaths routinely advise against vaccination or antimalarials. The potions they provide in their stead don’t work. This is dangerous.
This is good news for Ireland
Why? Inane comment.
William, you appear to have a bit of knowledge on this. .
What is the safe exposure limit of fluoridated water for infants/babies?
Also are you aware of any synergistic effects of boiling same for their bottles ?
“The issue of boiling water is irrelevant insofar as the effects of this are already
accounted for in the observational studies simply because people do boil water and use it for food or drink from time to time.
If the water in a kettle is boiled, it will typically evaporate off a very small percentage of the water. The final concentration of fluoride will be the original concentration multiplied by the original weight of the water and divided by the final weight of the water. So, if 0.5% of the weight was lost, an original concentration of 0.8ppm will result in a final concentration of 0.804ppm, which is to all intents and purposes, unchanged.”
From The Irish Expert Body on Fluorides and Health – whose job it is to answer the questions of ill-informed scientifically illiterate politicians.
*insert moronic, scientifically illiterate and emotive comment here*
Shouldn’t Chris Andrews go back to sending out crazy tweets, rather then sending out crazy statements?
Colleagues here in Australia that grew up in the country (no mains water), where their water supply was from rainwater tanks. They took daily fluoride supplement tablets when they were young to stop tooth decay issues.
Town in northern NSW have already removed fluoride from the mains water. Tooth decay in children doubled.
Sure, remove the fluoride.
But no taxpayers money goes into any tooth decay dental work for children in the area.
Let’s just take it out and see what happens. I’ve knocked fluoride out of my diet ie. new water filtration system in the house, iodized salt and toothpaste. My mood is much better my skin that used to crack open has cleared up and my daughters eczema has completely gone. There has to be something in that alone. Oh and my teeth haven’t fallen out yet.
Wow, so removing all chemicals from water will cure everything? So all we need to do is drink filtered water and all diseases will go away. It’s nearly too good to be true.
Does your new fancy water filtration system filter the fluoride out of your food and other beverages too Myles? How does a lettuce fit through the filters?
Just checked out my tube of toothpaste… Minimise risk of swallowing and consult doctor or dentist if fluoride ingested from another source… Sums it up for me.
Why don’t you contact your doctor or dentist and ask them advice on regulation of fluoride in the water?
My god weed and fluoride in the same week, what’s left to moan about??
Removing fluoride is probably not going to make a significant difference to people’s health for better or worse so I don’t really care either way. I will miss the highly entertaining debates on the subject though, particularly from the nonscientific folk.
It is estimated that in areas where fluoride is added, cavities in children’s teeth are reduced by up to 40% compared to similar populations in unfluoridated areas. Whatever about the enormous cost saving, fluoridating water reduces risk of tooth extraction. Tooth extractions are now the number one cause of children’s hospital admission in the UK.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/13/teeth-problems-children-hospital-decay-extractions
Surely children’s allowance can cover the cost of a tube of toothpaste
Best of luck convincing low-income groups (who are disproportionally more likely to have poor dental hygiene) to use toothpaste which contains, er, fluoride.
Harvard study this year revealed fluoride lowers children’s iq and also damages developing brains, linked with autism
I emailed Guinness about its fluoride content… No reply
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