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LAST UPDATE | 27 Nov 2018
UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT PETRO Poroshenko has warned of the threat of “full-scale war” and said Russia had sharply increased its military presence on their shared border as tensions escalate between the ex-Soviet neighbours.
“I don’t want anyone to think this is fun and games. Ukraine is under threat of full-scale war with Russia,” the president said in an interview with national television.
The number of Russian units deployed along the Ukraine-Russian border has “grown dramatically” while the number of Russian tanks has tripled, Poroshenko said, citing intelligence reports but giving no precise timescale for the buildup.
He spoke after Russian forces seized three of Kiev’s ships off the coast of Crimea on Sunday and captured 24 Ukrainian sailors, sparking a new diplomatic crisis.
Today a court in Simferopol, the main city in Russian-annexed Crimea, ordered 12 of the sailors to be held in pre-trial detention for two months.
Three hospitalised sailors were also formally detained for two months. The rest are to appear in court tomorrow.
The move is likely to further stoke tensions between Moscow and Kiev, as Russia continues to accuse the sailors of crossing illegally into Russian waters and of ignoring warnings from its border guards.
Kiev has demanded the release of the sailors and urged Western allies to impose further sanctions on Moscow.
Putin warns of ‘reckless acts’
The incident was the first major confrontation at sea in the long-running conflict pitting Ukraine against Moscow and Russian-backed separatists in the country’s east.
It has raised fears of a wider escalation – in a conflict that has killed more than 10,000 people since 2014 – and prompted international calls for restraint.
President Vladimir Putin today warned Ukraine against any “reckless acts” after Kiev declared martial law in response to Moscow’s seizure of the navy vessels.
The Ukrainian parliament voted yesterday in favour of Poroshenko’s request for the introduction of martial law in border areas for 30 days.
This gives Ukrainian authorities the power to mobilise citizens with military experience, regulate the media and restrict public rallies in affected areas.
In a phone conversation with German Chancellor Angela Merkel today, Putin expressed “serious concern” over its introduction.
He said he hoped Berlin could intervene with Ukrainian authorities “to dissuade them from further reckless acts.”
Moscow has accused Kiev of planning Sunday’s confrontation as a provocation aimed at drumming up support for Poroshenko ahead of elections next year and convincing Western governments to impose further sanctions on Russia.
Putin said Kiev’s actions were “clearly taken in view of the election campaign in Ukraine”.
Sunday’s incident has been playing out on Russian and Ukrainian television screens, with dramatic footage of Russian ships chasing down a Ukrainian tugboat that was trying to pass through the Kerch Strait from the Black Sea into the Sea of Azov.
Sailors on Russian TV
Russian state television aired footage late last night of some of the captured sailors being questioned by Moscow’s security services.
One of them is heard saying “the actions of the Ukrainian armed vessels in the Kerch Strait had a provocatory character” – parroting the version of events put forward by Russian authorities.
Ukraine’s naval commander, Igor Voronchenko, said the sailors were pressured into giving false evidence.
“I know these sailors, they were always professional. What they are saying now is not true,” he told Ukrainian media.
Western governments have rallied behind Kiev in the dispute, accusing Russia of illegally blocking access to the Sea of Azov and of taking military action without justification.
The European Union, Britain, Canada, France, Germany and others expressed support for Kiev yesterday, in statements pro-Kremlin newspaper Izvestia denounced as “predictably anti-Russian”.
The foreign minister of Austria, which holds the rotating EU presidency, said today that the bloc will next month consider further sanctions against Moscow over the flare-up.
“Everything depends on the accounts of events and the actions of both sides. But it will need to be reviewed,” Karin Kneissl told reporters.
UN chief Antonio Guterres today called for “maximum restraint,” urging both sides “to take steps without delay to contain this incident and reduce tensions”.
With reporting from Associated Press
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There was a great post on reddit explaining what happened – I’ll re-share it.
“Basically there’s a sea that Russia and Ukraine have mutually agreed both have access to for economic reasons. The straight to this sea is between Crimea and Russia. This sea is an extremely important shipping route for Ukraine and is a big part of their trading economy.
Several months ago Russia built a bridge over this straight connecting Crimea and Russia. This bridge was designed to be too low for panamax (standard container ship size) ships to be able to pass under. This majorly disrupted this trade route and forced Ukraine to have to use uncommon and much smaller container ships on the route.
Fast forward to yesterday and Russia parks a large container ship under this bridge completely blocking access to the straight. This ship is surrounded by Russian fighter jets and navy vessels to protect it. This was an aggressive (and unlawful) action in 3 different ways: it violates the agreement they had with Ukraine guaranteeing access to the sea, it is a military action in disputed territory, and it violates long inplace international naval free passage treaties.
Ukraine responded to this by sending a tugboat to move the ship out from under the bridge with two small navy escort boats. When they arrived, the Russian navy fired upon them, rammed the tug boat, and then seized control of all three vessels. Several injuries on the Ukrainian side, but no one was killed.”
More about the bridge here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Bridge#Disruption_of_shipping_(to_Ukraine)
@Seán Ó Briain: If there is supposedly a freedom of navigation between Ukraine and Russia, how come Ukraine stopped 450 Russian commercial and fishing vessels in the last 18 months and have had the cheek to suction some of the captured vessels off.
@Seán Ó Briain: If the bridge has been built too low for standard container ships to pass through, how come the Russian were able to park a big container ship under it?
The Ukrainian were sailing to a port on the other side of the bridge as reported by them , NOT sailing to pull the container ship out of the way.
How do you get away with these lies?
@Cal Mooney: “If there is supposedly a freedom of navigation between Ukraine and Russia, how come Ukraine stopped 450 Russian commercial and fishing vessels in the last 18 months and have had the cheek to suction some of the captured vessels off.”
Freedom to navigate and freedom to fish in waters are two different things. Why don’t you provide a source for your claims so we can analyse them properly?
@Pixie McMullen: “If the bridge has been built too low for standard container ships to pass through, how come the Russian were able to park a big container ship under it?”
The bridge is too low for the panamax ships to sail safely under it. That doesn’t mean it’s not possible to block the bridge.
“The Ukrainian were sailing to a port on the other side of the bridge as reported by them , NOT sailing to pull the container ship out of the way.
How do you get away with these lies?”
Are you stupid? The ship was blocking access under the bridge. The Ukrainian navy sent a tug to move it out of the way to allow for shipping to pass freely. It was already reported by the Irish Times along with many other media sources.
“The crisis began earlier on Sunday after Russia stopped the three Ukrainian ships from entering the Sea of Azov via the Kerch Strait by placing a cargo ship beneath a Russian-controlled bridge.”
@Pixie McMullen: Here’s an actual photo of the cargoship blocking it: https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/1125/1013282-russia-ukraine/
@Pixie McMullen: how are you accusing Sean on lying? You have absolutely no basis for any of your claims. The height of this bridge is a verifiable fact. That’s something that exists in the world.
@Paddington C.: Because people like Pixie live on propagating misinformation instead of operating through facts. I’ve already posted a photo of the actual cargo-ship blocking access under the bridge. There’s nothing to dispute.
@Cal Mooney: I actually rather enjoyed the time I was unexpectedly suctioned off by a Ukranian.
@Seán Ó Briain: yup, people (or person, because they’re probably the same guy) like Cal and Pixie aren’t particularly interested in facts. I just thought that input was particularly egregious. Good post, anyway.
@Seán Ó Briain: I do not live on propagating misinformation, i asked a question ,Yes, i was possibly too hasty in calling them lies. also the container ship was moved there when the Ukrainian ships were on their way,The Ukrainian ships were NOT sailing to remove the container ship, as it hadn`t even been moved into position when they had set sail, the ship was moved there to block them coming through.
Russia accuse them of having no permission which they are supposed to acquire before sailing, the Ukrainians say different, but yet you all believe Ukraines version of events implicily
@Paddington C.: I am NOT talking about the ships being too tall pal, i am talking about the rest of the article which is designed to lead us to believe that the Ukrainians only set sail to move the container ship, which is a patent lie as even the Ukrainian authorities have said they were sailing to the port on the other side.
@Paddington C.: I have answered your question paddington, i am interested in the facts , as always, but i want those fact to be the real ones we are being fed, it is that simple.
@Seán Ó Briain: sorry it was the Irish navy going from cork to Dublin but went the wrong way.
@Kem Trayle: What was his name?
@David McShite: It was the time I met a chick in Kiev.
@Seán Ó Briain: “The crisis began earlier on Sunday after Russia stopped the three Ukrainian ships from entering the Sea of Azov via the Kerch Strait by placing a cargo ship beneath a Russian-controlled bridge.”
Is that your admission that the boats weren`t sailing to remove the container ship? seeing as it wasn`t already there and only moved into position as the 3 naval vessels approached?
Your end point makes a total show of the rest of your explanation that the 3 naval vessels were sailing to remove the ship, especially when you end with your last point.
@Kem Trayle: A chick called Kevin ehh?
How much did that set you back?
@Cal Mooney: They sucked a Russian vessel off?
@Pixie McMullen: Jesus christ. Would you stop – you’re embarrassing yourself.
Kerch Strait and Sea of Azov are shared waters between Ukraine and Russia as the result of a 2003 treaty.
Three Ukrainian vessels were going about their business, travelling from Odessa to Mariupol which requires access via the bridge. The same bridge that has reduced shipping across Ukraine by 25% since it was built, due to its impact on the ability of panamax cargo ships from passing.
When attempt to pass, the Ukrainian ships were blocked, rammed and the bridge was blocked with a cargoship. During this time – no ships were permitted to pass, even Ukrainian cargoships. They tried to use a tug to remove it the blockade, but were rammed by a russian ship.
The Ukrainian ships had the RIGHT to enter the waters, upheld by a treaty. Russia did not have the right to stop them. This is all Russia’s fault.
@Irish Protestant: care to be more precise?
@Seán Ó Briain: Ukraine DOESN`T have the RIGHT to enter unless they receive permission, Russia says permission wasn`t given, the Ukrainians have said they were given permission.Read the facts of passage before jumping in with both feet.
And we are all supposed to believe what some Reddit`s user posted and which you copied??
It`s just another blokes version of events and NOT an official narrative, ANY article that starts with ““Basically there’s a sea that Russia and Ukraine “…
YOU are quoting some strangers version on Reddit as FACT – you`re the Moron here lad, a fool even to believe an unofficial article written by a stranger on social media in the first place.
Your original comment was that the Yug moved in to remove the container ship – it DIDN`T as it was already travelling with them.
Moron
@Seán Ó Briain: The Kerch strait lies between Russia and Crimea – It is NOW Russian territory, Ukraine needs permission to sail between Russia and Crimea, is THAT simple enough for you to understand?
@Seán Ó Briain: Hers is a pic of the Kerch Strait – in case you have trouble understanding basic Geography…Clearly the Kerch strait lies between Crimea and Russia.
https://jamestown.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Kerch-Strait-map.jpg?x87069
@Seán Ó Briain: Looks like they just reopened the bridge, a lot of ships are waiting to leave Sea of Azov and a line of ships leaving. Only a few are entering the Sea of Azov. Maybe they are afraid of getting stuck if there’s a war.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:36.7/centery:45.4/zoom:11
@Seán Ó Briain: that is vry well explained SEAN
@Mari: That explanation is from a post by a stranger on social media, as in his interpretation of events – no official facts in it, just some person on Reddit which he copied and pasted.
could simply be a pile of made up BS
@Pixie McMullen: it isn’t Russian territory. No more than the West Bank isn’t Israel’s territory just because Israel moved in to illegally occupy it
@Diaspora’d: So reclaim the West bank on behalf of the Palestinians and then preach moral high ground to others. In the meantime it just comes across as hypocrisy.
@Diaspora’d: For all intents and purposes it is Russian land, You might have heard there was a referendum held about it a few years back which overwhelmingly wanted Russian ties – when was Israels referendum again?
@Seán Ó Briain: Sorry both nations agreed to NOT put any military naval vessels in the Sea of Azov without the permission of the other. Russia was not asked for permission as per their mutual agreement so they blocked the naval vessels from entering the Sea of Azov. You are incorrect about the height of the bridge the center arched span can be raised to allow taller ships in. So these basic facts ruin your neat narrative. It was the Ukrainians who threatened to blow the bridge up, they deployed two naval artillery boats and where chased by Russian coastguards. Only when they rammed the coastguard did the attack aircraft intervene and the helicopters deploy their special forces. A clear provocation by Ukraine, the bridge is irrelevant to the argument over Crimea itself, the Sea of Azov is NOT international waters it is internal waters between Ukraine and Russia – I suggest you try harder with your “Facts”
@Pixie McMullen: you mean the ridiculous referendum that did not include a status quo option for Crimea remaining as it was within Ukraine?
@Diaspora’d: Still haven`t answered my question…..When was Israels referendum on the West Bank again?
@Pixie McMullen: what are you talking about? Israel is despicable in its treatment of Palestinians
@Seán Ó Briain: The Kerch Strait is eight meters deep. Azov ports are mainly built for and used by medium sized ships such as mini and handysize bulk carriers. These can still travel under the bridge. Very few Panamax ships passed through (those that did were not fully loaded) as they could not do so safely even before the bridge was erected.
@Diaspora’d: “yeah but whatabout whatabout whatabout whatabout whatabout… ” come on you know how these goofs operate. Still reading from the Pravda manual as though the Cold War never ended.
@Diaspora’d: What am i talking about? I`m talking about you making the comparison between Russia and Israel about land grabbing, there is no comparison as one had a referendum which resulted in an overwhelming majority wanting Russian ties, and the other didn`t.
@Harry Whitehead: And you thinking that the Fatherland is Russia, you have no right calling anyone else a goof.
@Diaspora’d: Lead the charge calling for Palestinian sovereignty to be respected and up held. Then add your call for support for Ukraine. One problem at a time my friend.
@Pixie McMullen: And you not recognising an allusion to the Nazis and their cult of personality, you’re just a bit dim. Still, any chance you could have a word in Wally’s ear? He still keeps referring the ‘the English embassy’ even though no such thing exists.
@Seán Ó Briain: A total distortion of the truth. Even the Ukrainian version of what occurred is less fanciful than the rubbish in that Reddit piece.
@Pixie McMullen: Russia annexed Crimea. The sham referendum didn’t give an option to keep Crimea as it was.
@Diaspora’d: Would you support a referendum now under international governance and supervision to give the people their say? If not, you sound like a moron.
@Harry Whitehead: funny how you are equating the Russians with Nazis after they destroyed them in WW2, when the Ukraine is full of actual Nazis today, looks like you are the dim one yet again.
@Cal Mooney: sure..and how about a similarly supervised referendum throughout Ukraine for EU and or NATO membership, how would that go down in the Donbas Luhansk? or are you going to claim that also shouldn’t be considered part of Ukraine?
@Cal Mooney: Next, you’ll be claiming that Antrim and North Down can exclude themselves from complying with a united Ireland border poll
@Pixie McMullen: Ah yes, that’ll explain why most far-right organisations in Europe and the US seem to take their cue from the Kremlin rather than the Rada…
@Harry Whitehead: lol not another idiot posting links to the guardian
@Pixie McMullen: Any chance you can address what the interviewee is claiming rather than comment on the paper? Nah didn’t think so. And say what you like about the Grauniad – at least the Grauniad is an independent source. It doesn’t hold off criticising No 10, Westminster, the White House, NATO, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the EU, the BBC…
Do please remind us of the last time RT, Sputnik or any of your crank sites ever said a naughty word about Putin or Assad. In your own time lad.
@Seán Ó Briain: ‘propagating misinformation instead of operating through facts’ – facts? From your anonymous post from reddit that ‘someone left’? Is it safe to say, since you reposted it here, that you automatically believed this post that someone left on reddit? You see how propagating misinformation works?
The Russophobic mob are out in force tonight!
@Conor Treacy: because the Russians are at fault
@Conor Treacy: Russophobic? You don’t have to be Russophobic to criticize Russia’s actions here, you just have to have common sense. Then again, it’s harder to use common sense, than label everyone Russophobic
@Slava Cickinas: To criticise the Glorious Leader is to criticise the Fatherland. Didn’t you get the memo?
@Harry Whitehead: It`s known as the Motherland – The Fatherland was Germany…Ya Thick
@Travellers Are Over-represented In Irish Jails: How do you know? Both sides are blaming each other.
@Slava Cickinas: Common sense? Nobody on here knows what happened. Both Ukr and Rus are claiming the other side started it.
@Harry Whitehead: You should be in bed Harry. You have a big day in play school tomorrow.
@Pixie McMullen: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!
@Conor Treacy: said the loser who worships the orange man-toddler in the White House.
@Conor Treacy: you a Russiaphile ?
@Conor Treacy: 1) Ukraine didn’t need a permission to cross because both of the countries can use the Azov waters based on 2003 agreement between Russia and Ukraine. Russia claims, that because there is the bridge, they have to protect it, but that isn’t covered by any agreement.
2) the end ram happened in neutral waters. The coordinates of the ram were confirmed in the published Russian troop radio recordings and the mayday signal sent by the Ukrainian team.
Regardless of whether this was provoked by Ukrainians or not (I see no proof of that) – Russia broke the 2003 agreement and maritime law. In addition to that, you can find pictures now that they were shooting at the cabin where the Ukrainian crew was, not at the engine.
Russia knowingly and deliberately provoked this situation. They initiated it by first blocking passage under the bridge, there’s no question of this and there are photographs to prove it.
Russia knew Ukraine would respond in some fashion and had numerous heavily armed naval vessels standing by, along with Russian fighters overhead. This was no accident.
Three Ukrainian vessels, one a tug and two small armed boats, either entered the area, either to pass through or to attempt moving the ship blocking passage. They were immediately fired upon and rammed by the Russian vessels, this is beyond doubt and has been captured on video. The Ukrainian vessels did not open fire.
Several Ukrainian sailors were wounded, some believed to be seriously and 24 others captured by Russian special forces operatives who, again, just happened to be aboard the Russian vessels. Some have since been paraded on Russian television, a violation of international law. Article 27 says that people protected by the Fourth Geneva Convention “are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons” and be protected from violence, threats, insults and public curiosity. It applies not only to “cases of declared war” but also “any other armed conflict”.
When the Ukraine then voted to declare martial law for 30 days because of Russia’s actions they threatened them calling it, a “dangerous provocation” by Kiev. To be clear this would be similar to Germany invading part of France, the french government acting and voting accordingly, and then the Germans accusing them of provocation. Sound familiar? If there are street parties in Ukraine because of this it doesn’t involve Russia or Putin, they may be concerned, but that isn’t sufficient reason to invade. Someone better tell him that though.
@Arch Angel: Sure didn`t the Ukrainians put Russian military captured up on TV a few years ago – or is it only bad when the Russians do it?
@Arch Angel: Let’s flip it the other way. Russia has not moved it’s bases closer to NATO in the last 25 years. NATO promised not to move it’s bases closer to the Russian border during the breakup of the USSR. Fast forward 25 years and there are now over 100 NATO bases in the vacuum left by the Soviet union. If you were a Russian, how would you feel. The peace in our time mantra ended when the US and england said they wanted Ukraine to acquiesce and be taken over militarily by NATO.
@Cal Mooney: Honestly, if I was Russian I would be wondering why all these former allied Soviet states are so afraid now of Russia that they want to join NATO
@Diaspora’d: Not really, bought politicians and in many cases the refusal to have fair open referenda on the topic.
@Cal Mooney: as fair as the Russian organized referendum in Crimea where the status quo (Crimea remains as it was in Ukraine) wasn’t an option?
@Diaspora’d: i think you need to revise the options that were on the table for the referendum, you will find you are wrong on this one.
@Diaspora’d: Obviously you didn’t read my comment properly or I didn’t make it clear. I asked if you would support a formally internationally recognized referenda with all the choices laid bare to be held to decide the sovereignty of Crimea. And then accept the choice of the Crimean people? It is a Yes or No answer.
@Cal Mooney: I am wondering why is wasn’t a choice before. Similarly I am asking if you would be ok after a successful United ireland border poll giving the unionist population in North Down and Antrim a referendum to exclude themselves from a United Ireland?
@Cal Mooney: If I were from one of the former Soviet state countries joining NATO I’d wondering why the he’ll it’s any of Russia’s bloody business.
Imagine if Britain wasn’t a NATO member and acted the same towards us joining NATO.
Russia needs to stop this Cold war mindset and work the world. Perhaps in time they could actually join NATO rather than treat it as their enemy. Its only their enemy if they still have imperialistic intentions.
I’m up for Russia.
@Frankie Mangan: of course you are bot
@Pixie McMullen: Well, the Ukrainian personnel are currently being detained in a Russian prison. Having lived in Russia, I know very well the conditions of Russian prisons. The incident highlighted above is typical of Russian prisons, and not the exception. These Ukrainian prisoners are likely, though not guaranteed, to face the same conditions. Neither Russian nor Ukrainian personnel, however, are, or were, being detained at Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib. So, yours was a complete strawman argument.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: What were you in prison for in Russia that you know the conditions so well?
@Cal Mooney: That’s pathetic Cal.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: You’re wasting your time trying to speak sense to him. A diet of the RT and YouTube spin machines have washed all traces of objectivity from him. He’s far from alone which is the depressing state of things.
@michael: Are you guys the night shift in the english embassy hasbara department?
@Cal Mooney: There’s no such thing as an English embassy, Wally. We’ve been over this before…
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Brian, seeing as you claim to be worldly, what will happen to all the people (Russo-Ukranian) that decide to go out and protest the nutty Presidents decision to impose martial law only in areas that have a Russo-Ukranian ethnic majority? How will the police, army and prison service treat them. Porishekno is finished. With an 8 percent satisfaction rating, he needed to bring about this confrontation in order to impose martial law. There is simply no way martial law could be implemented that quickly under any circumstance in any country in the world.
@Clifford Brennan: to be fair, I lived in Dublin my whole life and don’t have a clue what the inside of mountjoy looks like…
It’s a palace according to commentators here but i doubt it.
Anyway sorry to interrupt the conspiracy arguments. Carry on.
I was never in prison in Ireland, yet I know what prison conditions are like here. Similarly, while not in prison in Russia, I know what prison conditions are like there. As for Poroshenko and martial law, I agree it should not be implemented and was certainly far too hasty. I was simply responding to Pixie’s whataboutery in bringing up Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. The world isn’t divided into black and white, but has many shades of grey in between. Crimea, for example, is used to argue for and against both Russia and Ukraine, leaving out the fact that the majority of both Ukrainians and Russians living there are colonizers or descendants of colonizers, and the indigenous Crimean Tatars are always ignored…
…If you agree with Crimea being annexed by Russia because of the Russian settlers and their descendants, then you should also agree with the West Bank and the Golan being annexed by Israel, or North Cyprus being annexed by Turkey. Otherwise, you’re just a hypocrite.
@Hellenize Dublin: how do you not know what it looks like? It’s on TV every week and plenty of pictures online and in print media, as well as plenty of reports about the conditions in the media and from official sources.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Big difference between the Russians taking back Crimea in 2014. They didn’t expel the population living there. The Israelis expelled or murdered almost 1 million Palestinians and have been treating the remaining Palestinians worse than the South African government treated blacks during apartheid. Apart from that, yes I agree with your comment.
@Cal Mooney: try googling about the “deportation of Crimean Tartars”
@Cal Mooney: But they did expel them in the 1940s, with an estimated 35% of the Crimean Tatars, Kypchaks, Greeks and Tats dying en route to Central Asia in cattle wagons on trains. Between those expulsions, the Holodomor and the subsequent resettlements by ethnic Russians, the ethnic balance was shifted permanently in Russia’s favour. Currently, ethnic Crimean Tatars are being targeted by Russian authorities, with their representative assembly, the Majlis, being listed as a terrorist organisation, despite the fact that it only ever represented Crimean Tatar interests. Combine that with denying them the right of return and occupying their houses and you’ll see striking similarities with Palestinians. But, no, because it’s a one-up against the West, it’s deemed fine.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Go away with your facts Brian, they are never welcomed by the comrades on here.
@Jurgen Remak: No offense, you have an American flag as your Avatar, using your logic, Native Americans should have driven the Europeans into the ocean when they landed. Russia has not expelled anyone since they annexed Crimea in 2014. So not really any comparison there. I know you and the english embassy staff will ponder how to respond, but my guess is that you will opt for a deflection and personal attack.
@Cal Mooney: The Tartars in Crimea seem to still be oppressed and restricted to travel. Putin isn’t exactly renowned for tolerating any opposition.
@Cal Mooney: None taken Cal, it’s just a picture, calm down and don’t read too much into it. As for the Native Americans I think it would have been better for them had they managed to drive all the Europeans back in to the sea.
Brian is correct. Those events happened in 1940’s, the same decade Israel seized territory. How you can claim there is no comparison is being wilfully blind. I guess the Tartars don’t rate as highly as the Palestinians for gaining any sympathy from Russians or anyone else in the international community.
I have no idea why you refer to an English embassy when no such institution exists. Who are these English embassy staff you speak of?
@Diaspora’d: Coming from you who supports the illegal occupation of multiple countries and lands, that is very rich.
@Jurgen Remak: When I look at how the Russians handled a perceived otential breach of their border by military vessels armed to the teeth vs how the Israeli military with the most advancedv military weaponry in the world faced off against unarmed civilians in the last few weeks, I and the vast majority of normal thinking people are relieved. The deliberate slaughter and maiming under the guise of pretending to protect the yet undefined (undefined by Israel, not the rest of the world) should be a clear moral case study on how to treat humans. I am sure you agree.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: i think Ukraine is looking in the wrong direction. The need Russia to attack them spill the war over into Poland then it becomes Europe’s problem….
@Cal Mooney: eh, what are you on about? I can find fault with many aspects of US foreign policy, which is not too hard, believe me.
Two wrongs don’t make a right, covering for Russian aggression by pointing out US aggression doesn’t justify it.
@Cal Mooney: I do agree on that. This isn’t just about the incident with the ships, you have completely ignored the expulsion of the Tartars and settling of Russians as Brian has described. Clearing the way for claiming Crimea.
That was my point. Nice avoidance of that fact Cal. And not a nice way to treat humans either I’m sure you agree. Try not to accuse others of hypocrisy, deflecting or changing topic when you do it yourself. Doing it because you’re a passionate defender of Russia doesn’t make your hypocrisy any more acceptable than blindly defending the US or Israel. The reference to ‘English embassy’ staff is pretty dumb too.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh: Do you support giving Crimeans and people like the Palestinians a s vote on their own autonomy, with no preconditions under the full glare of international observers and supporting their wishes? I know that I do.
@Cal Mooney: what a magnanimous display of autonomy and self determination. Sounds like you would be ok after a successful United ireland border poll giving the unionist population in North Down and Antrim a referendum to exclude themselves from a United Ireland?
@Cal Mooney: Yes, Cal, I do. However, when it comes to Crimea there would have to be preconditions. The rights of the indigenous Crimean Tatars would have to be respected, including their organisations, representative bodies, schools, language (including choice of script; currently the Latin variant is prohibited in official Russian settings) and cultural associations. Irrespective of outcome, Russia must be allowed some say over Crimea and the use of its ports. Also irrespective of outcome, Ukraine must also be allowed some say over Crimea and free, unhindered access to its waters and coasts in the Sea of Azov. Citizens should be entitled to either Crimean, Russian or Ukrainian citizenship, or some dual combination combination.
@Clifford Brennan: if it’s the statement about russian prisons, he is 100% correct.
Living in a country for a short time doesn’t give you a knowledge of their prison system.
Better to pull Russia into a war sooner the better. There only eyeing up more targets in the West and with time the have a better chance…
@ben: You signing up to fight them Ben? seeing as you are calling for war, or are you going to sit at home and watch it on TV as others die instead?
@Pixie McMullen: war will only stop if the people refuse to fight… So yeah sit down and watch it.
@ben: YOU are the one calling for war here, while you sit at home like a coward and watch it on TV
@Pixie McMullen: tactically yes.. People have joined the army then let’s use them… Id deserve the same if I make that decision.
@ben: tactically … there’s a sucker born every minute. You’re perfect example
@ben: Have you but the calculation of 7,500 Russian nukes into you war equation.?
@Pixie McMullen: well said.
Too many lefties are brave with other people’s lives. Especially of soldiers lives…
Dont worry .. Merkel will have all young Irishmen conscripted into her Euro Army to fight the ruskies .. and everyone will live happily ever after .. apart from the relatives of the dead Irishmen … viva EU
Funny how RT says the complete opposite.
@Free Online Games: Russian media don’t show their own vessels impact or fire upon the Ukrainian ones, they edit out their own military ordering one another to “slam into him, hit him on the right” (not exactly a nautical term) on a video taken from the Russian vessel.
And who is RT, Russian international television network, funded by, the Russian government, in effect Putin.
@Arch Angel: The Rus ship slammed into the Ukr ship but why did it? Did Ukr provoke the situation? Ukr sailors that were interrogated admitted to provoking the situation and they said they were just following orders.
@Conor Treacy: Lol? They “admitted” the Russian version of events after interrogation by the Russians – and that’s credible to you? Incredible
@Conor Treacy: What they admitted on Russian TV for Russian propaganda purposes was in stark contrast to the evidence.
Russia had an agreement in place with the Ukraine that both states would have passage through this narrow channel.
After invading the Crimea, Russia built a bridge over this channel knowing it would be too low. Like me taking over your house, declaring I now own your driveway, and blocking have the road in front of it.
Russia, with enormous military forces in place, blocked ships from going under the bridge – this wasn’t the Ukraine. Ukraine sent 3 small boats to investigate, one a tug.
They were met with overwhelming Russian force, warships with special forces onboard, Russian jets and helicopters overhead.
It’s difficult to see how anyone could possibly believe this was provoked by the Ukraine when the stage was clearly set by Russia. Not one shot was fired by Ukraine yet their sailors have been attacked and seriously injured, captured – illegally, along with their vessels and paraded on Russian reading dubious confessions. This is also a breach of the Geneva Convention which Russia just ignores, yet they shout when a voice is so much as raised in anger against them.
In every step of this conflict Russia has been the aggressor, yet they’ve claimed they were provoked, absolute nonsense. Ukraine is an independent state with the right to choose their laws etc. yet when they legally voted to declare martial law for 30 days Russia, who have no business in Ukraine, threatened them. And you somehow think Ukraine are responsible for, what? Upsetting Putin?
@ihcalaM: You still believe the supposed good natured freedom loving english and US supported headhacking rebels in Syria never had and don’t have chemical weapons that they would use on civilian populations even though the BBC finally acknowledged today they and only they could have used the chemical weapons to attack Aleppo civilian neighbourhoods today. The truth does finally come out.
@Arch Angel: 1) You are speculating. How do you know they didn’t do it out of their own free will? From what I can gather the morale in the Ukr is not very high. 2) Crimea voted to secede after illegal western sponsored coup in Kiev. 3) The Kerch Strait is eight meters deep. Azov ports are mainly built for and used by medium sized ships such as mini and handysize bulk carriers. These can still travel under the bridge. Very few Panamax ships passed through (those that did were not fully loaded) as they could not do so safely even before the bridge was erected. 4) The Russians claimed 2 Ukr gunboats and a tug boat entered the Russian maritime border, ignoring Rus’s lawful demand to stop. That is like me, ignoring your commands to not enter your home, enter and walk around your house. 5) There is a treaty but there are rules that should be followed. Moscow claims they weren’t. 6) According to Moscow, the bulk freighter arrived on the scene after and blocked the passage through the bridge. 7) If the Ukr sailors were given orders to provoke they would not need to fire a shot. Sailing, unannounced, into Rus maritime waters will do that. If this is true, the Rus response is justified. 8) ‘In every step of this conflict Russia has been the aggressor’ – that is ridiculous and not worth commenting on. 9) The gangsters in charge of Ukr can do what they want but imposing martial law before an election, when Poro, is polling so poorly doesn’t look great. Also, this little stunt will likely have a negative effect on the Putin-Trump G20 meeting, provided it happens now. Something always seems to happen when Putin and Trump are about to meet. It must be a coincidence.
@Conor Treacy: “There is a treaty but there are rules that should be followed. Moscow claims they weren’t.”- wait, what?? Are you speaking about some unspoken rules? Like if you rent a flat from me via Airbnb and follow the rules that were in the contract, but I still evict you because you broke the unspoken rule of not eating crackers with cheese.
There are agreements and there are international laws. You can’t just make up stuff.
@Conor Treacy: Forgive me I’ve only just seen your reply now.
1.) No. I’m basing everything upon the facts available, I’m not naive enough to believe that only one side is capable of provocation, that said only one has been invaded to date.
given what has happened in the Ukraine, a continuing conflict in the east of the country, the annexation of the Crimea, it should come as no surprise that morale is low. And bear in mind much of this information is coming from Russia.
2.)Crimea did vote to secede – under illegal circumstances. you cannot invade a country and then, at the point of a gun, say lets have elections. We’ll call them free elections. Really…?
3.) I’ll be honest here and say I don’t know enough about the geography of the Kerch Strait, I could google it, but what would be the point?
4.) Let’s be clear from the outset. A bilateral 2003 treaty gives both countries access to the waters, despite Russian claims they are not Russian Waters. The FSB said the Ukrainian ships “illegally entered a temporarily closed area of Russian territorial waters” without authorisation. This confirms what independent witnesses have already stated, Russia blocked access under the bridge and had a substantial military presence waiting for the inevitable Ukrainian response. The Ukraine sent two small armed boats and a tug boat, none fired a shot and were immediately attacked.
This is not like your analogy as Russia have no legal right to block access to the Strait, furthermore the Ukrainian navy have a recording of them radioing the Russians for permission to pass under the bridge. They’re not legally required to do this but do so to keep the Russians happy. They received no reply.
If anything this is more akin to me blocking access to a public road, you trying to pass by, me ramming you and then accusing you of provocation. And then I arrest you and seize your car.
5.)As I’ve just illustrated, Moscow clearly ignored it’s own rules and orchestrated a situation to force a conflict. They knew what would happen and had a huge military presence standing by, including special forces onboard their own vessels. This wasn’t a spur of the moment conflict but rather a planned event.
6.)See 4.) above, this is a blatant lie, their own FSB statements admit that as do independent witnesses.
7.) They are not Russian waters.
8.) I guess we have different definitions.
9.) You are incorrect sir, they didn’t ‘impose’ martial law but voted for it, much to the anger of Moscow.
@Slava Cickinas: You strike me as an expert on this agreement/treaty? If so, answer me the following: 1) What is the agreement? 2) How did Russia break it? 3) Does the fact that Russia now controls Crimea change anything?
@Arch Angel: 1) What ‘facts’ are you referring to? Or whose ‘facts’? The Russian side of the story contradicts the Ukrainian story. I have not seen any conclusive evidence produced by either side. W/o clear facts, I am looking for motive. I don’t see a strong motive for Russia to do this. Ukrainian elections are approaching and Poroshenko is polling poorly. This is a political gift that amounts to his best chance of getting reelected. Putin dislikes Poro greatly and would prefer Tymoshenko in power who is more of a deal-maker. Also, Putin has a meeting with Trump coming up. This incident may put that meeting in jeopardy and that is bad for the world.
2) You cannot talk about Crimea and East Ukraine in isolation w/o talking about the reason behind these incidents. This goes back over 20 years and includes the expansion of NATO eastwards, the war in Yugoslavia, US withdrawal from the ABM treaty, Georgia in ’08, ABM bases in E Europe, NATO sponsored colour revolutions in MENA and Ukraine. IMHO Russian actions are reactions to events that have occurred.
2) True but international law went out the window when the ‘west’ supported the overthrow of the legitimately elected government in Kiev. IMHO Ukraine would be whole today if the ‘west’ stayed clear.
3) Me too.
4) There is an international border that runs down the middle of the Sea of Azov. Both countries have the right to co-exist in the sea. Ukr has right of passage through the sea. As the two countries have to co-exist in the sea, Ukraine has guaranteed right of passage through the sea to its ports in its territorial water in the northwest corner of the sea under an agreement signed with Russia in 2003. This agreement is the key. The Kerch straits are actually difficult to navigate, full of shallows and rocks. The protocols of the agreement require ships to check in with the Russian port authorities at Kerch and take on a pilot to help them navigate the straits. As a result there are regularly traffic jams of ships queuing up in the waters on either side of the straits waiting to be allowed to pass.This is the second time Ukraine has sent military ships through the straits this year, according to reports. Some frigates passed the straits in September with no problems. The Russian sides claim, is that unlike in September the three ships at the weekend – two patrol boats and a tug – didn’t hail Kerch port for permission and didn’t respond to hails from the Russian coastguard when they approached Russian territorial water (on the Russian mainland side of the straits, rather than the disputed territorial waters on the Crimean side of the straits). The Ukrainian ships continued to sail on a course that would have taken them through the straits without permission from the Kerch coast guard. The Russians claim that the Ukrainian ships entered Russia’s undisputed territorial waters on the eastern side of the straits and that is where the ramming incident took place. Some ppl claim this incident happened in international waters and others that it happened in Russia’s waters. While the right of passage for Ukrainian shipping is guaranteed it is not automatic. Under the 2003 agreement the Russians supervise the passages and Ukraine is obliged to comply with the protocols. This is to avoid ships without pilots running aground or collisions between shipping passing in and out of the Sea of Azov. No ships are allowed to simply steam through the straits on their own. This resulted in the Russian ship ramming the Ukr ship. I haven’t heard this recording of the Ukrainians asking the Russians for permission. Can you send a link?
5) I disagree. Based on motives I suspect Ukraine started this but I do not have the facts to back this up.
6) Can you post a link?
7) This is explained in point 4. They are not international waters anyway.
8) Russia are definitely guilty of aggressive actions but there are reasons as explained above.
9) Fair enough but it doesn’t look great and helps Poro in his election bid.
In fairness though, RT is miles ahead than western news channels when it comes to investigative journalism. The docs they do are top notch and the journalists seem to be a lot more capable and intelligent than BBC, RTÉ, TRT and every single American main-stream broadcaster(which tbh are the absolute bottom of the barrel). We don’t really practise investigative journalism here anymore because our own media have chosen to get news from the side that have the most to hide and whose propaganda machine is on overdrive.
Ukraine going to war with Russia will ensure a swift and decisive defeat for Ukraine totally out gunned and Russia army is professional.
@JesusMoreBullshit: Russian bots out in force tonight
This has more to do with spheres of influence. Since the collapse of the USSR the Western NATO countries have gradually extended their sphere of influence. Russia has reacted fearing encirclement. Ukraine is a minor pawn in the game.
@Micheal S. O’ Ceilleachair: You really have to ask yourself why do so many of these countries that are Russia’s neighbours and former satellite states want to join NATO and want closer ties to the EU ? The ones that have the closest ties to Russia like for example Belarus has a de facto dictator in charge since 1994.
Well done Russia. Ukraine is full of nazi’s.
Yer man in Ukraine is up for election he had to do something
Current Putin’s rating is below 60%. I kept saying, small war is on cards to bust his popularity.
Anybody bother asking…
why were they siezed?
What were they carrying?
Nope, thought not, carry on J.ie.
Russia will do what they want. Who’s gonna stop them.. sanctions my arse. God help Ukraine.
@Ciaran Hughes: They will do nothing if left in peace. Unhinged Porteshenko is desperately trying to stall the elections that will see him trounced. Whether he acted alone or was encouraged by outsiders is still not clear.
The next thing ol covney will start about it
Did any one see the Warmonger Nickey Haley Ranthing at the UN
Porteshenko will be overthrown by his own people all the lies in the world not help him
have your say