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(screengrab via TV3)
HERE WE ARE, 31 days away from deciding on whether this country should ratify the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union.
That’s the official title – the ‘Yes’ camp prefers to call it the ‘Stability Treaty’; the ‘No’ camp is plumping for the ‘Austerity Treaty’. We here at TheJournal.ie are going to refer to it as the Fiscal Compact referendum.
Tonight, we’re bringing you full live coverage of the first major televised debate on the referendum – The Europe Debate with Vincent Browne - out in Ballymount at TV3′s studios. Let’s start the countdown…
Good evening, folks. All four of the politicians debating the issues of the fiscal compact have arrived at TV3′s studios in Ballymount. TheJournal.ie’s reporters have been on hand to tease out some of what you can expect to hear tonight…
Fine Gael’s Simon Coveney was first up on the… ahem… red carpet. Susan Ryan asked him about the tweet the Labour Party sent out earlier today in reply to @kencurtin’s enquiry about Labour sending no representative to the debate tonight:
Is it true, Simon Coveney – ARE you speaking for Labour tonight?
Coveney: “No, Fine Gael and Labour are two separate parties. We’re together in government and together in this campaign. We had a joint statement last Saturday so we’re very much working together and I hope we’ll work with Fianna Fáil also on this campaign. This isn’t about party politics and I hope that people focus on the issues because that’s the important thing.
What I say this evening I’m saying on behalf of Fine Gael and I hope that it will be supported by Labour as well.”
So now, Labour Party official Twitter account.
Mary Lou McDonald is limbering up even on her way in. The Government’s plan isn’t working, she said, and she’ll be setting out Sinn Féin’s alternatives for the country instead of signing the treaty.
“We need jobs, we need growth, this treaty will deliver nothing.” And off she goes.
Joe Higgins, as one would expect from the veteran Socialist Party man, has plenty to say. He told TheJournal.ie‘s Christina Finn:
“Austerity has brought us to the disastrous situation we are in today. Piling on more austerity is insanity. We need public investment and fundamental change in our taxation policy, our financial institution should invest in community and should not be in the hands of the sharks in the financial market.”
Asked if Ireland would be pushed out on its own, away from Europe, if it failed to ratify the treaty he said:
“The Government said there is no need for a second bailout so I don’t know why they are warning us? The question we will be posing tonight is what on earth the Minister for Finance was saying when he said that a no vote will affect the budget – a budget that is probably already decided between him and the troika already.” Ouchy.
Meanwhile, our reporter Sineád O’Carroll has been keeping track of Micheál Martin on his way to the make-up room. He wouldn’t answer any questions on whether Eamon O Cuiv was in trouble for plumping for a No vote.
Higgins feels that a No vote would be a “massive rejection” of austerity policies and a demand for radical change and job creation, and for a financial system that won’t serve bondholders and billionaires.
Simon Coveney’s answer is to recognise that the treaty won’t completely change the world but it will encourage ”responsible budgeting” among all European states and ensure “that we won’t get into this mess again”.
He brings up access to the ESM (European Stability Mechanism).
Mary Lou McDonald says we just can’t afford it – and we can’t afford to tie the hands of this Government or of any future government.
She says that this Government is behaving in an “inept” manner and is trying to “bully” people into signing up to something that will “deepen our problems”.
Micheál Martin is concentrating on the treaty in terms of guaranteeing us access to future funds. “We either get it from the markets or from the European Stability Mechanism”. A Yes vote would make sure we had access to “cheaper money that would cost less than if we vote No”.
Mary Lou is already rolling her eyes.
New question – if we don’t vote Yes, we won’t have access to a second bailout?
Joe Higgins believes that the idea that we won’t have access to ESM funds if we vote No (the “blackmail clause” he calls it) has not yet been enshrined in EU law and that Ireland has a veto vote to stop that becoming the case…
And, he says, we’re already in a bailout situation which has proven disastrous for our people. A second bailout would destroy the economy.
Vincent: So we shouldn’t bother taking a second bailout if we need one?
Higgins: It would be a bailout for bankers and it would destroy what is left of the country.
Simon Coveney: As long as 90 per cent of the funds to be put in the ESM are contributed by member states, it WILL be set up he said. Ireland won’t have a veto, he says, sure, we’re only putting in 1.57 per cent of those funds.
Coveney says that actually investors are more likely to give us money if they think we are part of the ESM because it’s almost like an insurance.
Vincent wants to know why the Government signed up to the clause that said we only get access to ESM funds if we vote Yes.
Simon Coveney is saying it’s in our interest to – that it’s a source of stability and there isn’t a source of funding anywhere else.
Vincent not letting it go…
Coveney repeating that ESM is a stability mechanism.
Mary Lou McDonald is getting in on this – she says the Government is being very “cynical”. The ESM “is not yet established – that’s a fact”. The Government has to give it its approval for it to be set up, she says.
She’s telling Vincent Browne he had a “fair point” in his question about the “blackmail clause” because she claims the Government have ability to get rid of it if they want to.
That got Micheál Martin going. “I don’t want to veto the ESM fund!” Why would we, he says, it’s a secure, stable fund that could fund Irish public services if the markets won’t lend to us.
Joe Higgins seems to have scented the blood of the argument getting going so he’s coming in with “underhand manoeuvre” accusation at Taoiseach Enda Kenny who he said gave EU “gun to point at the head of the Irish people” over threat to leave us out of ESM if we don’t ratify.
Much talk of big sticks, guns to head and blackmail in store tonight, it seems…
Micheál Martin is that reducing general debt to below 60 per cent of GDP is achievable…
Mary Lou McDonald saying that the provisions of this treaty wouldn’t have protected us from the economic crash that happened. Austerity strategy “is not working” and that this is not a stimulus. In fact, the treaty would tie the hands of the State to make prudent investments to get the economy going.
Simon Coveney: “Mary Lou can’t back up where she would get the money (for those measures).
Mary Lou McDonald: “Mary Lou can back that up… let me do the figures…”
While Mary Lou McDonald is scribbling, Simon Coveney has a pop at Sinn Féin “misquoting” economist Karl Whelan in their referendum leaflets while simultaneously asking why businesses are looking for us to vote Yes if this is a treaty that will squash jobs and growth.
Mary Lou McDonald is back with figures: There is €5.5bn in the National Pension discretionary fund, she says. You can’t cut your way out of this.
Joe Higgins is saying that the onus is on the Minister (Coveney) and Micheál Martin on what economic impacts the treaty would have if it went through. Micheál Martin complaining that Joe Higgins won’t answer his question. Yeah, says Simon Coveney (sort of). The question – in case you’ve lost the thread - is to ask Higgins what he would suggest as an alternative to signing up to the fiscal compact.
Vincent Browne: One way or another, there will be austerity but if we say No and are deprived of a second bailout should we need it, where will we get the money?
Joe Higgins wants everyone to agree first that a second bailout “as proposed by them” (of bondholders and bankers, he says) would kill us. What we need are taxes on high earners, he says, and put those funds towards bailing out the people.
Vincent making Higgins answer the question: What if we need a bailout in 2014, where will be get it?
Higgins says a progressive taxation on wealth.
“€15bn overnight from taxation?” asks Vincent incredulously. We wish the camera would pan to his face at this point.
Mary Lou McDonald says she thinks the Yes camp is wrong to keep saying we won’t get money from ESM if we vote No. She says the reason it is there is to keep Europe stable.
Ad break. Put on the kettle. I’m going for a lie-down. Coveney and Martin are going into a huddle*. (*I may have made that one up).
So now. If you want to read the Fiscal Compact for yourself, our own Gavan Reilly did a rather handy version of it in layman’s language. Plain English if you will. Read it HERE.
Note: This document should be not should not be treated as a full, legally valid document. It is offered only to try and help people understand the requirements and terms of the treaty by ‘translating’ each point into more everyday English.
A full ‘official’ copy of the original treaty is available in English here and in Irish here.
And if you’d prefer to take a break and talk about the weather, this is how miserable it looked out in TV3 this evening. Lashing it was. (Thanks to Susan Ryan for standing out in the cold).
We couldn’t help but notice that the various pols were doing their ‘doorstep’ on one of the disability parking spaces. But, we’re told, there were lots of parking spaces available at TV3 this evening.
Aaaannnd we’re back.
Vincent is starting from the right this time. Simon Coveney is asked if there wouldn’t be absolute chaos if we turned down the treaty.
Coveney doesn’t think it is “believable” that we could not sign up and then go looking for money from the EU.
Micheál Martin says a No vote creates an “uncertain scenario”. We might not be barred from borrowing from European mechanisms or from the IMF – but it’s by no means clear, he says.
Why wouldn’t we choose for a vote that would get us cheaper money, he says.
Vincent putting forward the interesting theory that people might vote no, partly because they have had no say in what has happened to us fiscally in the last few years.
Martin: If they do vote no, they’ll have consequences to deal with. He says that a bailout programme was a “sensible” option because otherwise we would have been off looking for money at “punitive” rates to get us out of the economic hole we found ourselves in.
Simon Coveney is being posed the question that the Government didn’t ask for a writedown of the debt once they got into power.
Coveney slightly chides Vincent (careful, now!) saying people are tuning in to listen to a debate about the fiscal treaty. “The idea that we would take a leap into the dark and throw Ireland into the eye of the storm” of uncertainty by advocating a No vote is madness he says. He might not have said madness, but that’s the jist.
Mary Lou McDonald says there are certainties from the treaty alright – but a certainty that the State will concede more powers to the EU courts, to more austerity.
McDonald is saying that the treaty will essentially rip the hearts out of the public. Martin is saying treaty gives a structure on the way back to growth. Higgins is holding up his notebook and wants to speak.
Higgins says Coveney has “the nerve” to say a No vote will throw us into the dark. This will create “further devastating crisis” he says.
“We need to break with the current financial system”.
Martin says the EU has to up its game, and get budgets balanced and we do need a European Central Bank and we need European bonds. But, he says, all of that can happen and the treaty won’t stop that.
Higgins: A No vote will be a protest against the “financial system”.
Simon Coveney says Mary Lou McDonald is “misleading” people saying we can get money from elsewhere. We (the Government, we presume) have sat down and laid out a potential way of getting it.
ESM, EFSF, IMF – the “alphabet soup” McDonald mentioned earlier – are places we can get money, she says.
Micheál Martin ends the debate with thought that his party wants the best for the country. No-one else gets a little summary line – will they be happy with that?
So that’s it until Tonight with Vincent Browne at 11pm where he will discuss the debate that he has just chaired.
There will be a final doorstep with candidates – sorry, debate participants – on their way out of Ballymount. We’ll bring you any interesting lines from that shortly.
In the meantime, who do you think will be in the biggest hurry to get out the door?
Which of the ‘Yes’ and ‘No’ camps pulled together best?
While Vincent Browne was pointing his biro at the four speakers in TV3 studio, Lucinda Creighton and Clare Daly were having it out on the same issue on RTÉ’s Prime Time.
We’ll leave you to decide who was in which camp.
Eamon Ryan and Declan Ganley will be two of the guests on Tonight with Vincent Browne later, we are just hearing.
We wonder how this lady will be voting?
This is Rita Fagan who was with the Spectacle of Defiance and Hope group, protesting today at the May Day protest march in Dublin. Today is International Labour Day and the march was organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions – around 500 people marched at it biggest point, and it included community groups, Occupy activists as well as trade unions. And Rita. Photo from Mark Stedman in Photocall Ireland.
So, you’ll remember the story we ran last Thursday about Sinn Féin denying that they had “selectively” used the quotes of economists on their ‘No’ campaign leaflets? All three economists – Karl Whelan and Colm McCarthy of UCD – and Seamus Coffey of UCC are actually advocating a ‘Yes’ vote.
Karl Whelan was tuned in tonight. I don’t think Sinn Féin will be quoting him on this one:
On the way out of the TV3 studios, Simon Coveney said that there will definitely be no second referendum if we fail to ratify the treaty this time. It only needs 12 countries to ratify it.
Joe Higgins was asked what he thought of his performance and he said that the purpose of tonight’s debate was to focus on getting the ‘Yes’ camp to vote on X,Y and Z. Mary Lou McDonald was asked what she thought of Higgins’s performance and she thought it not a fair question and that it wasn’t up to her to comment.
As for Micheál Martin, he’s willing to work with Fine Gael on getting the ‘Yes’ vote through…
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YAY! Drinking game guys. Everytime Simon Coveney says ‘stability’ do a shot.
Reckon I’ll be too pi$$ed to post by 9.15……
Roll out barrel….
Fell asleep watching debate but have read all comments on journal & really enjoyed. Sounds like I missed nothing… Will be voting No & the main reason is nobody on either side has a bloody clue & the scaremongering on both sides is shameful. Ireland has lost a certain beauty.
Peter 66 That is a terrible way to look at it. If some one offered you a contract saying you’d get a million pounds would you just turn it down because there were people trying to convince you to accept it/reject it…No you wouldn’t you’d read it make your own informed decision and go from there.
The exact same should be done with this treaty. By voting No you are allowing one side which you say has no idea what they’re talking about and are scare mongering win, just like if you randomly picked yes for the same reason. read it and make your own decision!
Bit harsh Loraine but it’s your opinion. I have read the ‘treaty’ & that is worded for a yes vote. I have listened & read the so called experts & they can’t even agree on figures or measures that will be taken. So that leaves me listening to both sides of the argument & the amount of sh*te coming from both sides is shameful & dangerous sh*te of the highest order i should add. Anything that impacts on our constitution must be clearly explained & this is not happening & I will vote No all day long unless it is shown to me quite clearly that this is good for Ireland. Only 12 of the 27 countries need a yes vote to pass this , where is the democracy in that ?
Joe and Mary Lou getting slaughtered.
No question about that Nucky despite the thumbs down
Red thumbs don’t bother Nucky
Nah
nothin bothers the Numptymeister!
Isn’t that right Mr Thompson?
FF and FG are fixated on funding and who can we hit up next for a loan. They completely FAIL to realise that we have played the borrowing game for some time now and it has not worked and more importantly it will not work. The only defence FG and FF have for any question put to them is “Where will we get the money”. Any vote be it YES or NO will create harsh budgets and austerity, we cannot avoid this, the question of where we get the money is redundant. The focus should be on if we want to continue borrowing a mountain of money that we havent a chance of paying back in the next 20 years or if we take decisive constructive action to identify and admit to the problems that exist, and more importantly to fix them. So where does the NO vote get the money, they get it from fixing the holes in our public spending, namely the bogus social welfare claims, the overspending in the government departments for advisors, the ineffective frameworks that exist in the civil service to allow the civil servants work more effectively and much much more. Clean up the dire mess in front of us before creating a new mess.
Its like a teenager moving out of home for the first time and they get themselves into an apauling financial state because they cant manage their money. As long as mam and dad are subsidising their bad financial decisions they will never fix the problem. Voting YES in this treaty is moving the problem to another day in the future, it is effectively hitting the snooze button on a forever ringing alarm clock and we all know deep down that simply does not work.
Excellent comment martin…. Simple, concise and crystal clear… This is what I’m gonna use to convince others. Thanks man
Thanks Martin.. brilliant analogy there. (big word for a pig)
I watched the debate and though I was pretty sure of my vote, listening to FF and FG made me certain.
Who on earth would believe these people who have led us into such a position, had us by the neck to vote for the Lisbon Treaty with a carrot of jobs and money (ahem..what happened to those or am I missing something?)
Absolutely NO!!
No way.. liars all of them
I wrote to dear Enda a while back explaining to him how difficult it was for me as a professional looking for a job, no money etc etc and asked him how I might sort out my own personal situation and I got a reply!!
Yippee..
The reply:
The Taoiseach, Mr. Enda Kenny T.D., has asked me to refer to your recent
email.
The Taoiseach has carefully noted the issues you have raised and he
appreciates you taking the time and trouble to share your views with him.
The Taoiseach has asked me to pass on his best wishes to you.
Oh yes yes… I feel so much better now.
I’m still voting NOOO…
Thumb me down all ye want but the “no” folks are making a woeful mess of explaining where current funding will come from were we to vote no.
Ciaran, Mary Lou just showed the flaw in the governments argument .. the idea of the treaty is to give confidence in the european union… if the union refuses to give Ireland a bailout, then the whole house of cards comes down and the EU currency fails … They will not let that happen.
Read alot of your comments Cairan you seem to want to give the impression you’re undecided,not important but i’m curious as to why?
Eu may not let us sink but they will charge a lot of the life boats.
Terry, that will cause the same effect, bring down the euro….
yeah
ciaran “i haven’t made up my mind yet” o raghallaigh
ya spoofer
Norman, it’s because I don’t like the treaty but I’ve yet to see the “no” side give a serious answer as to where day to day spending will come from.
Cal, they MIGHT provide crisis funds. Mary Lou doesn’t know that for sure. But at what price? At what rates? They’d be unlikely to be at the same conditions as for those countries who voted yes.
Ciaran, if we sign up to this, we will not be able to renegotitate teh 70 billion euro Bank debt that is hanging around our necks … If we reject this, you can be damn sure we will get a bailout similar to the greeks (70% write down on the 100 billion this country owes)… Voting yes, means no write down. Is that a good enough reason?
Cal, no, sorry. We can’t be damn sure. It’s a chance. Damn sure, no? And at what rates/conditions? Do you know?
Yes yes, ciaran, lets give into the blackmail that fine gael had enshrined in the vote on the 31st. You not made of stronger stuff?
TT,
If we vote no and do as Cal is suggesting which is to seek access to the same fund anyway, at very best, we’ll get the money under the same conditions as if we’d voted yes in the first place. What’s the difference?
Difference is we will not be constitutionally constrained to pay the ECB fines if we breach the limits, whether we intentionally do so or not. Now, Irelands tiny recovery SO FAR is export led, our domestic economy has collapsed. Exports rely on the performance of the nations we sell to, so as long as we cannot invest in our domestic economy, we will only ever be as stable as the nations we export to. If our export partners have another downturn, we’re screwed. We will have no control over this and thanks to the treaty no ability to prop up our domestic economy via investment. Oh, and we will be fined by the ECB for this which we cannot control.
Ciaran – it is my humble opinion that Kenny & Co have already cosied up to the China and are hoping that should we say No they will look to them and the IMF for the next bailout we dont need!
TT,
You’re still assuming that we’ll get the funds under the same/improved conditions if we vote no.
You’ve touched on another flaw, though. This treaty imposes continent wide austerity. Each country’s trading partners need to be growing for that country to get out of this crisis. But if nearly ever other European country is cutting back too, that isn’t going to happen. So we need a much stronger emphasis on growth.
Hopefully, Hollande will win in France on Sunday. He’s pushing the need for a stimulus.
Cal is very correct here Ciaran, our EU ‘masters’ cannot afford to let our little ship sink, as it will bring down the very banks who both shoveled the money onto our little island in the first place creating this mess and now demand to be ‘bailed-out’ for doing so. Its these very banks whose liquidity underpin the relative strength of the Euro. They will not let the house of cards collapse so easily. With the other european challenges running concurrent, a No vote would send a clear signal to Europe that we need better growth promoting conditions. Furthermore, I would like to direct Ciarans attention to the treaty for the establishment of the ESM, paying particular attention to Article 32 and 33. A yes vote will give this ‘inviolable’ corporation a very powerful eternal mandate. Is that what you want??
Jamie,
The great and good of Europe is finally copping on to the fact that more growth measures are needed. But what your argument amounts to is that we can vote not to access the fund and then go back and ask for assistance anyway. Do you actually think we’ll get better conditions, a lower interest rate, a longer repayment period etc? Surely at very best, we’ll get the assistance on the same conditions as any country accessing the fund that did ratify the treaty – which is what we’d also get by voting yes. So what’s the difference?
In order to justify a “no” vote, you need to be showing how we can get by with no further need for external assistance. I think there is a growing realisation of that on the “no” side as evidenced by Richard Boyd Barrett’s comments this evening.
Micheál Martin seems to be playing the “I can shout loudest, I win” tactic!
Michael Martin is right Joe Higgins bluff was called and he cannot answer for the last 10 minutes
He didn’t have to, Mary Lou answered it with common sense, devoid of the threats and blackmail fine gael have resorted ta….
Mary Lou is eating them for breakfast…. Good girl, keep it up ;)
I think she is frightening “the b jaysus”
out of coveney !!!
Nonsense. Do you think you’re the only one here who is watching??
Mary Lou done a great job on the debate tonight. straight to the point a precise. Micheal martin was like a crazed pittbull and That fine geal fella was like a deer in headlights ha!…SURE VOTE YES FOR JOBS HAHA..LISBON 3 ANYONE??..NO NO NO!
Mary-Lou and Vincent came across as knowledgable. The other speakers were over-emotional, out of their depth and unnecessarily agressive, none of them with a reasonable vision.
Mickey Martins freaking out – stay calm ye eejit – you’ll wake Simon up if your not careful !!
Wrong debate, the question is not to decide on the treaty, the question is how to we as a people unity and remove the sociopaths who continually keep the rich rich and the rest of us distracted by discussing such irrelevant questions.
Brilliant, Vincent Brown will tell us the truth, no party political spin!!
Mary Lou’s make-up artist should be forced to read the treat 100 times for that effort
Coveney talks of “hoodwinking”. The bang of hypocrisy off these tossers.
i feel sick to my stomack listening to the shite i heard tonite and when you see michael martin and simon coveney sticking together like to peas in a pod something not right UCK
Rose, that is why i always refer to them as FFg
The Yes men looked like they were tweaking. Mary Lou walked all over them. The winner by a mile.
You were watching TV3 right?
Why are you writing this? People saw the debate and they know you’re just a Sinn Féin spoofer. Next!
If you are referring to me Impartial Eclipse then Im just giving my two cents….as is the nature of on line comment sections you dolt. For what its worth I have never voted for SF but they have been impressing me a lot lately, especially Mary Lou and Peadar Toibin. I don’t think that makes me a spoofer. Do you? Next!
Paul Oh,
don’t waste ur time arguing wit these buffoons on the charge of
“We’re all SFers”
Think you were watching something else ?? !!!!
I’ll admit she was better than Joe Higgins. Impressive? No. This idea that we vote no to access a fund and then try to access it anyway at probably far more punitive rates is claptrap.
Access a fund? I thought we were voting on the fiscal compact. Just proves the blackmail clause is the only thing that the yes side has in their argument, hence its inception……
I disagree completely with you Impartial on this, but that’s not really the point of this thread. The point is she was an infinitely more ‘impressive’ debater than anyone else on the panel. Higgins isnt very convincing and somewhat patronizing (understandable given the two clowns he was debating in this situation). Martin is shouty, has zero credibility and is clearly backed into a corner (does anyone believe that he isn’t regretting having to back the austerity treaty? Why is he fighting the oppositions fight? Makes no sense), Coveney is a bully and incapable of making a reasoned argument other than using fear tactics. He isn’t a leader. Mary Lou gave reasoned, calm and very convincing arguments in my opinion. You might not agree with my opinion but that’s democracy:-)
Paul Oh
I was watching it too and remarked that the two yues boys looked uneasy and were stepping from one foot to the other like nervous school boys . She was good as was Joe , calm cool and collected . Had their facts and figures , but Mary Lou ( not my favorite person) played a blinder.
I think Karl Whelan won that debate
why was my previous comment removed?
Mary Lou taking names and kicking butts.
Shinner bot.
And who are you a bot for, Impartial Eclipse? Fianna Fáil, Continuity Fianna Fáil or their pet Labrador Party?
whats with the anti sinn fein ?? ff f**ked the country up not sf. but all ye yes campaigners are goin to listen to ff. they guaranteed the banks and sold us out.they sold is down the swanny and ye are seriously goin to listen to them and vote yes????
It is deeply concerning that people could have watched that debate and believe that Mary Lou and joe made a convincing argument. As for Joe’s the onus is on the yes vote… Well it’s also on you to explain what the alternative is, and saying you’ll tax the rich is quite frankly ridiculous unless of course he plans to take 15 billion out of people savings accounts in which case it’s just scary. As for Mary Lou, she is clearly some kind of mathematical genius that can run the country for a year on the 5 billion she plans on raiding from the pension reserve fund… I wonder what she plans to do the next year.. Hmm
Comment of the week.
Malachy
Then you missed his point.
Higgins said the onus on the Yes men was to fully explain the implications
on the country in the event of a Yes win.
He is totally correct.
Only if its telling you what you want to hear IE. REality is, of course, theres no way the EU and ECB are going to risk the 6 TRILLION euro eurozone currency rather than offer to lend more money to the country thats obediently followed the first program.
@joseph mcgee
joseph, well done
comment of the week! :-)
Higgins is absolutely correct insaying that the yes side must put forward their arguement in a proper and concise manner and NOT bully or scare monger people any further.
The Yes campaign bases its stance on the question; where will we get the 13-14 billion we MAY need in 3 years time if not from the ESM? I would like to counter that question by asking; where will we get the 11 billion odd required to subscribe to the ESM in a July?
Most of SF seem to be financial geniuses, look how they can manage to dress so well etc on the average industrial wage ! They can even afford holidays, cars etc unlike the rest of the population living on the same amount of money, wish they’d share their skills.
Let’s hope it IS a debate and not political point scoring, we don’t need any more of that kind of cynical using of air time!!
Anyone else notice how coveney said “if we have to go to europe and tell them we rejected the ESM…..”?
All FG and FF could do was revolve the whole debate around the ESM and blackmail clause, they had NOT ONE SINGLE VALID ARGUMENT relating to the fiscal compact treaty that we’re actually being meant to be voting on.
Thats why the gun is to our head. FG fascism is subverting our democratic right to vote on the actual treaty by means of threats and blackmail.
Don’t know what debate you were watching. I heard plenty of valid arguments.
I’m sure you’ll be able to list them all without mentioning the blackmail clause gun to our head in that case……take your time….
Thought so
So no cannon fodder from Labour brave enough to defend and argue for the treaty?Brave souls sorry forgot they don’t have any,sold them for a chance at destroying what little hope we have of getting out of this mess.
Micheal Martin is annoying the hell out of me. All he’s doing is trying to shout and get the most air time. Me thinks he is trying to prove a point, that he can lead Fianna Fail. He’s failing. That’s all.
Miceal Martin just said we need more fiscal Union… does that mean, we have to give up our corporation tax rate???
Cal, as sacred as our corporate tax rate is, why are Irish humans happy to pay a much greater rate of tax than corporate persons??? I would argue that massive taxation reform is necessary to restore our prosperity. A whole new way of thinking about it! If corporations and dead people paid the taxes the citizens wouldn’t have to and be much more prosperous as a result. This may sound radical at first but given enough thought it may well be the ultimate solution to our financial woes. Inheritance tax will curtail the ever increasing grip of dynastic power, give every child a more balanced platform in life and easily fund our necessary state services. The unnecessary state services should be abolished.
Jamie, i work for a multi-national company.. Multi-Nationals employ over 100,000 people in this country directly, and approximately 200,000 indirect employees (contractors, sub contractors). I know from the company i work for, that in the event of the Irish corporation tax rate being raised, they will have no hesitation in pulling out, and going to another European country with a lower rate and lower wages, and overall lower overheads. They are not stuck here. That is why the French were trying to get the Irish to increase the rate, in order to make countries like France etc more attractive to these same companies. I am being selfish in saying “Leave our corporate tax rate alone”.
But very importantly, FFg/Labour/FF are all on for having our corporate tax rate on the table when discussing debt reduction etc. This is not an option. It would be the worst thing that could ever happen to our country, if that were increased.
Martin keeps talking about money for services yet its the bank bailout that is killing us
O Mary Lou I would !! because I’m kinky like that ………
if we access the esm fund we need permission from brussells what we spend it on. seeing as they are insisting on cuts and no investment why the hell would anyone assume that we need to vote yes purely to access a fund that wont provide investment. borrowing for the sake of borrowing to pay bills and no investment is like flogging a dead horse. no is our only way out in the long run
So what’s your alternative?
the alternatives have been put out there. yes campaigners just keep ignoring them. they have been on this thread. cut the waste in public service at top level. tax wealth. use the pension fund for investment and burn the unsecured bondholders. to be honest iceland did the right thing by declaring bankruptcy. they will be in a better position than us in the next 10 years.
Interesting that no one mentioned those things tonight. Have you got a link showing costings?
My alternative, Impartial Eclipse, is to move to a value-based monetary system where money is issued free of interest and away from this debt-based currency issued by a privately-run, for-profit, monopolistic central bank. Any time it has been tried before, it has worked economic miracles.
Okay, Tom. It sounds like you’ve given this a bit more thought than most people here. Where else was it tried?
Nuala Iceland is already in a better position then Ireland. Access to the money markets and growth in their economy.
Do your own research, Impartial Eclipse, I don’t have the time or inclination to do it for you.
Micheal Martin came across as Gay Mitchell’s angy, unstable cousin from Cork. He certainly does not like being challenged by a woman.
Agreed. He seemed to speed up the more uncertain he was of what he was saying. Im from Cork and I had difficulty keeping up with him at some points! the man has zero credibility. Why fight the oppositions battle if a new sheet has been turned in the party with his leadership and their supposed apologies for the havoc they have reaped on us. Give me a break.
We have two choices:
1. Vote YES and we can tap up the ESM to continue to fund overpaid public servants and their pensions. We can also continue to pay off bond holders who took risky investments in some badly regulated banks. Our children and grandchildren can pay the piper for our (our generation’s) recklessness.
2. Vote NO and we can stop the transfer of our children’s and grandchildren’s yet-to-be-earned wages to the cosseted classes and German bond holders. Yes we would have to take some severe medicine now but at least we sort out the mess we made now rather than leaving it for others to sort out.
Finally someone i agree with.This BS has gone on for 4 years more debt is going to make the situation worse.You borrow your way out of debt we need either a writedown or default.I don’t want my grandchildren paying for this F@@@ed up mess.I’m voting not because i agree with the No camp but because it is the right thing to do for future generations we’re f@@@ed but they shouldn’t be.
Eric its not are mess to pay for. Why do people keep saying this?
Are you seriously suggesting that gardaí, nursing staff and firefighters are overpaid?
The two yes boys are very anxious ! Can’y stand still for a minute and are on the attack …. Joe as always knows his stuff and takes no prisoners !
Susie, that’s nonsense. He was embarrassing trying to explain where gov would get money for services.
What’s this about a wealth tax? Can you fill us all in? Thanks….
Tax the Wealthy ! The ones who have earned an increase of 5.7 billion last year ON TOP of what they already have …. This is STILL a very wealthy country , but not for us ordinary people . :) The money is there . I will be voting no .
5.7 bn won’t cover spending for the next several years.
So Impartial ….. what do you suggest ? Ignore that wealth .? FFS !
We all know that at this stage Austerity is on the cards . It just depends now on how to shorten it . I will vote NO. I would rather have no money and owe nothing than do what the yes side suggest , have money and lots of debt …. So Chin up shoulders back and VOTE NO!
If Coveney and the likes think they can dictate and bully me into voting yes they are wrong, it’s a no vote for me.
VOTE NO: Because a yes vote is effectively voting for an end to home rule and the start of foreign rule.
Our state will have lost it’s sovereignity before it’s centenary
and 2 cork boys up there tonight promoting a yes vote! I hope they are not travelling to beal na blath or o’cuiv might get them!!
We were never out of the clutches of privately-run, for-profit and monopolistic central banks. We were never truly independent.
Anyone who thinks that this situation should persist should explain to me why some people (namely the shareholders of the central banks) should be allowed a monopoly on filching the wealth generated by others. Why is that monopoly good, but others bad?
Vincent Browne is a muppet. I’m voting No
so, treaty is to regulate the borrowing of governments, what measures will regulate the banks and markets? we are availing of bail outs to to pay their debts, yes we have a deficit however if we burnt bond holders would it be manageable in a five year austerity programme without another bailout?if we vote for the treaty,how can we continue to be a free market economy and be regulated by an outside body?
You go girl man I’m in love xx
I can’t understand the logic of voting yes for a treaty that ensures bankers and bond holders losses and debts are paid while public spending is cut. Why would I would vote to close hospitals, schools and to cut community services, This treaty is all about big bussiness and very wealthy people. Workers (be they private or public sector) will pay to ensure the rich stay rich and indeed get richer. The treaty also undermines Democracy, it allows unelected techocrats to determine our budgets. I ‘ve had enough of their idea of how we should spend our money
Sanity dicates a No vote!
Might be a good idea to read the treaty before you comment on it.
Why does no-one on the “no” side mention the main obvious flaw in this treaty: it won’t stop what happened in Ireland from happening again. #JustWondering
mary lou said it during the debate
+1
she did say it.
Ciaran stop the BS just vote yes when the time comes,instead of pretending your waiting for reasoned argument to help you decide
Ah, Norman. I’m sorry if I’m asking awkward questions off the “no” side. But most people here are “no” supporters so that’s the way things pan out.
Speaking generally, personal abuse makes you look silly. Especially if on the other hand you’re shouting about The Other Side scaremongering and blackmailing. Pot….kettle.
Not only does it not prevent it but it practically guarantees it will happen again.
Ciaran
If you go back to the thread about Mehole Noonan threatening us, you will find my post setting out the reason I will be voting NO and NO again and No everytime they ask.
Ciaran i din’t shout scaremonger blackmail or personnel abuse read my comments point out where i used any of what you accuse me of and i’ll apoligize.But as i said quit the BS vote yes if you but stop pretending to be undecided its obvious your not.
Good God, Norman, you only have to do a find on my name to see where I’ve put forward arguments against. You need to get used to the fact that a sizeable percentage of people have not made up their minds. I’m sorry if my not agreeing with everything you’re saying is an inconvenience, but sin a bhfuil. If you feel my posts are BS, then you could – you know – put forward arguments against them.
That’s what most other people are doing.
The other comments were aimed generally at rude people on both sides.
Anxious, jumpy and shouty does not make a debate winner. Calm, coherent and well explained stances does.
Agreed 100%
This is absolutely ridiculous….Jessica Simpson’s acting is ruining the country,bringing Hollywood into default and having a huge baby does not make her a bigger star…oops sorry,stupid me,bringing up an entertainment story that has nothing to do with a story about the government…what am I like?
No doubt about it – The Kerry/Dublin Team won in a canter – the two Cork Boys lost their tempers at the outset and never recovered their composure after that.
Look at the Poll on Politico and TV3 since ! – are practically identical –
72% NO v. 23% Yes
Interesting opening debate – with Labour on the missing list on May 1st – astonishing Smoked Salmon Socialists!
And we all know where pan european ideologies left half of Europe 2 generations ago!
Right. So obviously, up in Sinn Féin HQ, the decision was taken that loads of Shinner bots would log on to TheJournal and pretend Mary Lou did only fablis.
Sorry folks. The Irish people are not that stupid.
Oh shut up!
Im not going to argue that shite argument AGAIN.
I’m not old enough to vote yet and I’m red thumbing you. If I’m working for sinn fein, nobody told me.
Hope you read the treaty impartial because i took the time to read it and the basis of it is good but the total loss of sovereignty and Brussels oversight is unbelievable and also did you not see Junker said today that Germany and France think they are in a two country currency union??….You should also read up on your history and see what Hoover tried to do to fix the great depression and it didn’t work!similarities are uncanny!. economic growth only took hold after WW2..and the notion of stable infinite growth is a dreamland fantasy because resources are finite
Well I’m a Royalist and as English as English gets and I can tell you Mary Lou won that debate hands down no matter what party she is from…
I’m no Shinner and I challenge you to put up your party allegiances or shut to heck up with this nonsense.
I didn’t watch it, but I’m curious about this “Shinner bot” technology. It seems like very impressive stuff altogether. Imagine the market for this. Could it be the saving of the country?
http://www.mamanpoulet.com/on-message-everywhere-all-the-time/
FG HQ “POST POSITIVE MSG RE TREATY” on social media!
To be fair we’re pretty stupid. We voted in the numpties who caused this mess. Just saying. Now that’s democracy.
@Impartial Eclipse
‘Sorry folks. The Irish people are not that stupid.’
No, but reading your comments… you could be perceived to be!
If Sinn Fein really want us to vote No they should throw their weight behind the Yes campaign.
That comment might have meant something a decade ago. If you are alluding to their “terrorist” origins, you might want to consider the equally terrorist origins of both Fianna Fáil and Continuity Fianna Fáil.
Oh – Joe Higgins has a new suit and tie.
(That’s rampant capitalism for ya)
I really wanted a convincing argument from the YES side, and was found wanting. All they said was the word “stability” over and over. I wanted hard numbers, real answers, not fuzzy concepts. Martin acted like a tool, Coveney did slightly better.
The NO side werent without fault either. Higgins comes across as a patronising bastard with that drawl he speaks in, and he was caught out many a time too. Mary Lou, the winner by a mile.
At last,somebody else sees the socialist has no clothes! He was awful. Wouldn’t answer direct questions,waffled when he had nothing of consequence to say. Was it just me or did I hear a slight pitch for a Utopian, socialist, new world order. Anathema to most sensible people with the most basic grasp of history.
What will drive any economy is finance and the ESM will be the best opportunity to push the economy , we have more to gain then to lose in this scenario
Martin, back that up …. We all know how much austerity is coming our way (we havent seen anything yet) if we vote yes … If we vote no, we can put brakes on the austerity program, and maybe start growing the economy instead of shrinking it.
With what money, Cal??
With access to the same fund … The EU cannot let Ireland fail, as it will bring the Euro down…
Push the economy? Are you having a laugh, we’re half way through the first bailout and they haven’t let us invest ZIP. Oh, they’ve handed us money so we can hand it back to their banks, but investment in Ireland? Do me a favour….
So we vote no to say we don’t want to access the fund. Then we go back and say we do???
Riiiiight….!
Cal, are you still there?
@ actually we’re voting on the fiscal compact.
I see you are a willing participant in allowing your countrymen and women to be blackmailed?
Still no answer….
Please explain how piling more debt on to our existing debt (which is effectively what the fiscal compact allows us to do, borrow more) will help our economy? How will being forced to contribute to a fund that allows others to get further into debt help our economy?
Perhaps you’d like to answer that one, Impartial Eclipse.
Good letter in the Irish Times today from Desmond Fitzgerald.
What happened to all the money we already got under “austerity is the only solution” rounds #1, #2 and #3?
(and the next round will probably be the knockout)
The money will be available at affordable rates, Tom. If you think we shouldn’t borrow any more and just go for one massive cutback/balance the books exercise in one year, fair enough. Let’s talk about that.
Impartial Eclipse. You mention the money will be there at “affordable rates” can you provide a link or a document to prove that? My memory of “affordable rates” was the EU’s decision to hit us with very high rates as a “punishment” in our first bail out. Please provide proof of your claim.
I’m confused I thought we were going back to the markets for cash, I just can’t keep up………
Its simple, the government and FF want us to vote YES to their new EU/IMF low interest Credit Card so they can stick all their financial worries on it until its maxed out and then run away when the bill comes in!
Fair play to Micheal Martin. It was a very good performance on his part, not something I expected tbh. Responded to the arguments put forward by the No side very well, and represented the Yes side very well. Thought Simon wasn’t the best, didn’t seem to have the courage to speak up and seemed to leave it to Micheal to do the fighting.
As regards to the No side – funny to see Sinn Feins maths still not stacking up. Mary Lou asked to explain how she would fund a future bailout without the EU/IMF/Others and after much repeated asking the question, she said to give her a minute as she worked it out. She was able to tell us how we were going to fund the country by doing some basic primary school maths on the spot!! Yet, her answer was about €13bn short!
Meanwhile, Joe Higgins dodged the question countless times by both Micheal Martin and Simon Covney, he ended up being asked another countless amount of times by Vincent Browne how he was going to fund such a bailout and responded thinking that a progressive wealth tax would bring in immediate fund!
So the No side couldn’t give any accurate figures on how to fund the state, which was the center of the debate tonight. They proposed we veto a plan to . I mean, seriously. To think that these people are lecturing the government on running the country and are trying to tell us that the big names behind the Yes campaign are all wrong and scaremongering when they cant even get the basic argument to stackup!
The No side talk about how the treaty will kill investment and jobs, how its going to cause even more austerity. If this was the case, than surely all those behind big jobs and investment in Ireland, both the firms and their representitves wouldn’t be calling for a Yes vote? Because, if it does indeed create more instability, hardship and austerity – than its bad news for business. Yet, they seem to be coming out and giving it a huge backing?
Martin Cullen of Microsoft, Liam Ryan of SAP, Peter O’Neill of IBM, Regina Moran of Fujitsu and (Chair ICT Ireland), Kevin Cahill of BT, Jon Paul of Oracle, John Hennessy of Ericsson, Dave Gilmore of Commscope, Karl Flannery of Storm Technology and (Chair ISA), Edel Creely of Trilogy Technologies, Lionel Alexander & Paul McGrane of HP and Paul Sweetman of ICT Ireland.
You have others including The Irish Hotels Federation, The Irish Farmers Association , The IDA, The Small Firms Association — are they all wrong? Are they all part of the dishonest Europe which is out to cripple Ireland? Are they part of the scaremongering tactics?
If you put your faith in Sinn Fein – they have publicly endorsed as experts three economists. Now, while Sinn Fein thought they were against the treaty they were in fact fully behind and fully calling for the treaty. Karl Whelan and Colm McCarthy of UCD, and Seamus Coffey of UCC. Are all these big names in business and economy all part of the scaremongering of the Yes side? Obviously not.
If this was the case, than surely all those behind big jobs and investment in Ireland, both the firms and their representitves wouldn’t be calling for a Yes vote? Because, if it does indeed create more instability, hardship and austerity – than its bad news for business
if was on the panel tonight i would have quoted this kind of comment. the naievty is staggering. its so lacking in understanding of the real interests at stake here it makes me want to weep (and i don’t cry easily
Voting on fiscal compact not on leaving EU. Problem is widening gap between rich and poor. This euref should be postponed until France and Hollend stabalise their political stances. The EMS is dangerously bureaucratic and should be vetoed for a more accountable form of mechanism. Voting yes will drive us into untold deep water. Voting no gives us space to breath.
Very well said Eric it’s a no from me.
Cmon Vincent do a jerry maguire Show me the money to Joe
Stability mechanism…
Any structural engineers see anything wrong there?
Micheál Martin and the Fianna Fail/Traitors will do nothing for the yes vote. Who let this fool lead this debate?
Higgins needs to drop his ‘tax the wealthy’ obsession. Doesn’t he grasp that the collapse of the economy has destroyed vast amounts of wealth? His policy is tax everyone earning over the minimum wage to death so that a vast low paid public sector of idlers can be created. Communism failed Joe. Get over it.
I am confused after the debate. Micheal Martin – he is the leader of Fine Gael. Isn’t he?
Mary Lou McDonald’s forehead needs a bailout from 40 years of disapproving. It doesn’t seem to know what the rest of her face is doing
im torn as to what way to vote. good arguments on both sides. my heart is tellin me the no debate is right. but also, we are part of the Eu. we voted to join the euro.
no one complained when the Eu was pumping money into our economy in the form of agri funds, infrastructure projects, etc etc (albeit this tapered off when the economy boomed). Can we really just go with the EU when it suits us and throw the teddy out of the pram when they propose changes we dont like? We should either be all in, or opt out altogether?? what do others think? I for one dont want our corp tax rate effected, or to give any more power to Brussels over day to day running of the country but we cant shoot ourselves in (the other) foot either
Hi Janine. We did indeed vote to join the euro. We did not vote to save their banks or to be blackmailed by them. Ireland played by the rules as a soverign state, we did not breack the limits enshrined in this treaty. The banks brought us down, there is no vote happening to rein in their reckless behaviour. If we sign over our controls in the future to stimulate our economy we will never break the cycle of austerity.
Sad thing is most households have not got their ref’ packs yet if any so holding a debate before we have the facts seems pointless.. Looks like a government and potential allies (sic) trying for one up man ship against the no voters. The no voters who would talk tonight were left making arguments before full facts are published. Very biased in the run of things. My opinion and vote none of your businness but felt the yes vote had unfair presence tonight. I am not saying which way I’m voting but definite bias shown tonight .. Spend time to learn facts and vote as you see fit .. It’s all individual choice … To the. People ….m
Got mine this morning – dont bother its not in the least bit informative. Waste of ink and paper.
Was it just me or was there not a single, cohesive, valid argument either for or against the treaty in that debate? It seems from this column that both sides were speaking in generalities without any idea of detail. I’m in Denmark so can only go by the Journal version here. Just once it would be nice to hear specifically how the treaty is going to help alleviate the current situation in the EU or specifically what is the alternative at EU level if the treaty fails?
If we vote yes, then why don’t we save some money by shutting down the Irish Government?
@ trueleft, you’re right. dammit they shouldn’t have guaranteed the banks, but those bankers were pulling a fast one too, not giving a true picture to the minister, hence the decision to back then was made without all details. hopefully the fiasco will mean tighter regulation in future at both national an EU level. we need to take at least some silver lining out of it.
if public tiding towards the EU really is changing as much as it seems, maybe we should reconsider our position in the union then. as I said before we should be all in, or all out.
A logical response!
Does anyone truly think that the EU is going to hold together? I hear Economists so often heralding its imminent demise, its not if, its when.
Things often work in theory, however this in reality it is not working….
Its only a matter of time before it collapses and then the bond holders and bankers will hopefully have to share the ‘Austerity’
We will need access to funding for a long time look to 1929 crash that took along time to bring about recovery . Deficit budgeting in this climate Is Keynesian and this will have to continue form some time until economic prospects will drive more employment Our best shot is within the Eurozone where there are more prospects for growth.25 are stronger than 1 look back at currency speculation in the 1990s
I 100% agree … which is why, after we vote NO, we will still have access to the fund, along with a 70% write down of the banking debt, we will be in a much stronger position to pay the rest of the debt… Do you realise that next year, when we have to access another15 billion euro from the fund, that over 3.5 billion of it will go straight to pay down the banking debt, and every year after that for 20 years?
We don’t need more debt to pile on to the debt we already have. Call it a fund if it makes you feel better, but every single cent of our money is debt. The more money we are given, the more debt we owe. The solution to a fire isn’t to throw more combustible material onto it, just as the solution to debt isn’t yet more debt.
I am having a lot of trouble viewing online at TV3player. The adds before hand loaded up perfectly, but the video is a mess, it is flashing green and the video is completely out of sync. Does anyone know a fix?
I tried it yesterday Gary and had the same problem you are having…gave up in the end and reported the problem to them. I missed why Vin had to apolagise to Joe Costello.
Im a bit late posting to this but I did want to pass the remark that I was very impressed with Mary Lou, straight forward, firm and convincing. I didn’t think joe Higgins said enough ( though I did miss the first 15 mins). Míchael Martin was an awful waffler and i would have liked to know what he thinks about o cuiv- I realise he said everyone is entitled to his opinion, but the fact that o cuiv will now be actively campaigning against the views of his party is quite different to simply having a personal opinion. As for Simon covenay, I was very frustrated with the way he kept answering Vincent’s questions with other questions, such as Is it believable that the EU would allow us to go under? Disappointingly, yet unsurprisingly, covenay evaded answering and was allowed to continue to do so. Finally, the ‘yes’ side barely referred to the fiscal compact treaty, which is what we are actually voting on, but instead concentrated their focus on the ESM, distracting us from the matter at hand. Very poor show.
The yes side are doing a very good job of making this referendum into
Something else in people’s minds. This fiscal compact treaty is not about bailout funds people, it’s about stricter budgetary controls and debt brakes through way of intense austerity. There is no provision for growth, it’s MO is simply cut cut cut. This would probably be nothing to worry about had we not assimilated enormous private toxic debt as sovereign debt. But it has been done against most of our will anyway, and while we continue to struggle with what we currently owe, we cannot afford to be backed into a corner with this. How can such a small working population continue to shoulder this
Sprawling mass of debt? How can they continue to do it with no flexibility? The fiscal compact treaty will ensure out burden is ongoing.
The British had us for 700 years we have our country less than 100 year and look at the mess we got into,now the eu to own our asses for infinity and beyond
Do you seriously think we were ever independent? While we had no control over our money supply, we were not independent. At no stage since 1916 have we ever had (as a state) the power to issue and control the issuance of our own money.
Either way we are screwed and as a Nation we have nobody to blame but ourselves , lets face it we are thicker than sheep , we swapped one shower of lying corrupt gangsters for another shower of lying corrupt gangsters , they do not care about the public they have what they want their big fat pensions , lets call a spade a spade if we need another bail out Europe will have no choice but to bail us out if we go down we will bring the whole house of cards with us and Europe will never let that happen , remember these are the same bankers that brought all this mess on us , their God is the Euro
M.Martin on anything and professing to have any morals is laughable.
Vincent Browne seemed to suggest on his show last week to Leo Varadkar that this ‘gun-to-the-head- clause was written in on the request of the government ‘negotiating’ party. (lol)
Once passed the government can implement what they want and just turn it back around on the people and blame the ECB and IMF for the austerity path we continue to grind and which are devastating parts of Irish society.
This government sold out practically from Day 1. They’re 5-point plan is a failure. The arrogance portrayed by some government ministers is disgraceful considering the burden the people of Ireland have had to bear for the criminal actions of a few – all of which are still unaccounted for.
The point made by the minister in relation to the ‘google, paypal, intel’s ‘ etc of this world all being part of the yes campaign speaks volumes for me. I work for a US multinational and I certianly will not be biting the hand that feeds me.
For the record, if people think for one second that the ‘No’ side won that debate – they are truly nuts…
What have these words got in common? Five Point Plan … Frankfurt’s way …. 100,000 new jobs … Fairytales …. Stability …. Spin ….Santa Claus ….. Vote Yes..
Con, I could care less about any of that stuff. Quite simply, the people who provide me with employment and virtually every organisation that creates jobs in this country are in favor of a yes vote. Add to this the vast majority of independent economists are also in favor with the exception of Constantin (who I cant stand to be honest)…What ever you think of the Goverment or promises is irrelevant. Vote on the issue and whats best for Ireland. For me that is a Yes vote..
Isn’t that otherwise known as “I’m alright, Jack, pull up the ladder”?
For some reason my comments are not showing up.
Why is that?
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