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Scenes at Dublin Castle in May Niall Carson

Abortion: These were the amendments passed by TDs this week

It is likely the landmark bill to regulate abortion services in Ireland will pass in the Dáil at the earliest next week.

AFTER 15 HOURS of debate this week, the abortion legislation is yet to pass Report Stage in the Dáil. 

It is likely the landmark bill to regulate abortion services in Ireland will pass in the Dáil at the earliest next week. 

Once Report and Final Stages in the Dáil are complete, the Bill will make its way to the Seanad before the politicians head off on their Christmas holidays on 16 December (though there has been some talk about pushing that date out to get the legislation passed).

Of the 65 amendments put down by TDs, only a handful were passed. 

These were all government amendments which related to the review of the legislation, student nurses being covered by conscientious objection, and two doctors being permitted to certify a patient for an abortion in the case the first doctor she saw is unavailable. 

The government is under pressure to progress the Bill before the Christmas break so as to ensure abortion services can be fully operational and available in Ireland in January. 

Timeline

Health Minister Simon Harris dismissed reports that he would not get it over the line in time.  

The government amendments passed include one relating to the time in which the legislation will be reviewed. The minister has decided to review the law after three years of its commencement, rather than five years, as was originally proposed. 

The next amendment from Harris follows on from concerns from TDs and medical professionals who wanted to ensure a second doctor is able to help a woman access an abortion in case the first doctor, who certified her for a termination, isn’t available.

This is to avoid the scenario where the woman would be certified by a doctor for an abortion, but then after the three-day wait period, comes back to find the doctor who originally certified her for an abortion is not available at the time.

A number of opposition TDs raised concerns about the three-day wait period. The wait period relates to the time in which a woman first indicates and approaches a doctor for an abortion. The proposed legislation sets out that she must wait for a period of three-days before she is allowed terminate the pregnancy. 

From the government’s point of view, it argues the wait period was promised in the draft Bill ahead of the referendum vote in May, and is therefore reluctant to drop it. 

Fianna Fáil’s Mary Butler, who campaigned for a No vote, said the three-day wait period was contained in the Heads of the Bill and if taken out now would show the government “misled” the Irish people. Independent TD Peadar Tóibín suggested the wait period was only included to get Tanaiste Simon Coveney onside. 

One of the five government amendments to be accepted relates to including student nurses into the clause relating to the conscientious objection of medical practitioners such as nurses, doctors and midwives. 

Criminal sanctions

One of the most talked about amendments this week was one put down by pro-choice TDs which sought to amend a bill to lift the threat of criminal sanction for doctors who perform abortions in contravention to the regulations set out in the Act.

The proposed law sets out that anyone who helps a woman access an illegal abortion could still face a 14-year prison sentence.

Pro-choice TDs such as Ruth Coppinger, Mick Barry, Paul Murphy, Catherine Martin, Clare Daly, Mick Wallace, Joan Collins, Louise O’Reilly, Bríd Smith, Gino Kenny, Richard Boyd Barrett and Catherine Murphy sought to remove the section from the Bill.

Amnesty International hit out against the defeat of the amendment, stating that criminalising health professionals who perform abortions is never good for women.

“Making abortion a crime punishable by up to 14 years is not necessary or useful to protect women from forced abortions. Coercion or abuse can and should be addressed through existing criminal laws. Instead, international evidence does show that criminalising medical professionals creates a chilling effect that can lead to delays or denial of lawful abortion services for women and girls who need them.

“Our new abortion law must ensure this health service is regulated in the same way as any other—through general criminal law and the disciplinary procedures of health regulatory authorities,” said Sorcha Tunney, Amnesty International Ireland’s Campaign Coordinator. 

Amendments defeated 

Other amendments defeated this week called for public funds not to be used in abortion services. The motion was put forward by No campaigner TD Carol Nolan. 

An amendment which would ban abortion up to 12 weeks on grounds of race, gender and disability was also voted down, with the health minister pointing out that abortion on grounds of disability is already illegal.

After three days of debate, the Dáil made it through 41 of the 65 amendments put down. Further debate is scheduled for Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of next week in order to get the legislation progressed in time for the January deadline. 

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111 Comments
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    Mute Crpytoalchol
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:09 AM

    Need to keep the criminal sanctions for illegal abortions. Can’t understand why they would want to get rid of them

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    Mute Barry Somers
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:25 AM

    @Crpytoalchol: because they are a farce.

    We all saw during the ref campaign that even the NO side danced around the very idea of a woman being jailed for having an illegal abortion yet they wanted it to remain illegal. It was a farce.

    At the end of the day the NO campaign distanced themselves from a woman being jailed because even they knew the public backlash would be massive if they wanted to lock a women up behind bars for having an abortion.

    Its idiotic to want to jail a person for helping a women but not wanting to jail the women herself for wanting the illegal abortion. The claim its its to stop women being forced is a red herring, after all the same claim was made for wanting to keep the 8th in the first place.

    This is nothing more the pro-life groups taking ideas out of the USA playbooks, there amendments are stepping stones to try and undo the democratic will of the people of Ireland.

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    Mute Crpytoalchol
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:43 AM

    @Barry Somers: but it seems keeping it in place will stop doctors from performing ILEGEAL abortions, something that 100% should not happen. The argument that they are helping the women in ILEGEAL abortions is just not correct

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    Mute Peter Mc
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:47 AM

    @Barry Somers: if its illegal it criminal is it not

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:58 AM

    @Peter Mc: no, not necessarily. If it is contrary to criminal law it ia criminal. There are all sorts of laws which aren’t criminal laws.

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:59 AM

    @Peter Mc: it’s illegal to put up advertising hoardings im your front garden without planning permission, it is not criminally illegal. Just if you wanted an example.

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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:01 PM

    @Crpytoalchol: it doesn’t stop illegal terminations (which I guess you mean backstreet ones). it’s in place to prosecute individuals who “coerce” women into having terminations against their will. the issue is there is already laws against this (I can’t force someone to have their kidney removed), and the aim is to threaten people – like parents of minors – that they may be prosecuted by prolife legal groups of they advise abortion for their non suicidal rape victim child. keeping a jail sentence is always only a threat, and linking this threat with a medical procedure is utterly wrong.

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    Mute Crpytoalchol
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:22 PM

    @Gulliver Foyle: it would be wrong to assume what i mean. Let me clarify
    ILLEGAL abortions are contrary to or forbidden by law, many scenarios fall under this all are ILLEGAL and should be enforced with a jail sentence. ILLEGAL terminations should not happen, I don’t see how and why taking away the jail sentence makes sense or how doing this would help reduce the number of ILLEGAL abortions?

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:24 PM

    @Crpytoalchol: but there are all sorts of things which can be classified as illegal which are not criminal. Do you not understand that distinction?

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    Mute Crpytoalchol
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:34 PM

    @Paddington C.: Yup

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:35 PM

    @Crpytoalchol: you’re not displaying that understanding very well in your posts.

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    Mute Crpytoalchol
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:39 PM

    @Paddington C.: Doubt it buddy ;-)

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:45 PM

    @Crpytoalchol: I do

    12
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    Mute Crpytoalchol
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:50 PM

    @Paddington C.: That’s your cross the bare

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    Mute Peter Mc
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 11:04 AM

    @Paddington C.: if it involves the killing of a human life then it is criminal

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:21 AM

    Let the killing begin! Sad state of our country, those women who are “loose” can be safe in the knowledge they can simply just get an abortion now

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:23 AM

    @Micheal: sad state of our country that horrible people like you feel the need to say awful things like that…

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:26 AM

    @Paddington C.: well it’s all true or should we talk about how the actual abortion procedure takes place? Would that be too graphic for your sensitive liberal ears?

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:31 AM

    @Micheal: talking about “loose” women isn’t true, it’s skewed and inherently misogynistic. Are us men involved in the process, at all? Are there loose men? Or is it just the women who are to blame. And I am fine talking about the procedure, but really, really don’t see the point

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    Mute AnneMarie Roche
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:31 AM

    @Micheal: Well I know I for one intend going out and getting pregnant this very day just so I can be first in the queue come January. Theres going to be a stampede of immoral hussies tearing down GPs doors just to see what all this abortion craic is about.

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    Mute Paul Whitehead
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:32 AM

    @Micheal: let it go Michael.

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    Mute shellakybooky
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:35 AM

    @Micheal: haha haha I love your bunch. Your all still so bitter about it and still talking your usual shite…

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:37 AM

    @AnneMarie Roche: stampede of immoral hussies. Great

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    Mute shellakybooky
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:37 AM

    @AnneMarie Roche: if you need a hand im always here to help

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:39 AM

    @shellakybooky: still bitter about it? Are you for real? It’s killing defenceless babies! All justified in this new Ireland, where people have no morals, it’s a race to the bottom

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:39 AM

    @AnneMarie Roche: burn any bras lately?

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:43 AM

    @Micheal: I would say u r a big hit with the ladies

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    Mute MaxDemons
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:43 AM

    @Micheal: The best thing to do is pray Michael. Pray for all theses hussies from your sanctimonious, judgemental tower of make believe.

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:43 AM

    @Micheal: “burn any bras lates” – guy bemoaning the race to the bottom. Well you won the race, congrats.

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    Mute AnneMarie Roche
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:45 AM

    @Micheal: Sure won’t I get myself knocked up quicker without one?

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:53 AM

    @Mickey Fennessy: why would I not be? Do women only like men that agree with killing babies now? FYI I’m happily married to a woman with morals unlike most of the women here on the journal

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    Mute AnneMarie Roche
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:57 AM

    @Micheal: Woman tend to prefer men who don’t try to control what happens to their bodies. Men who don’t make judgements without knowing the full story. Men who don’t refer to them in nasty antiquated terms such as loose or immoral. Just FYI.

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:02 PM

    @AnneMarie Roche: ah so your living in a world of make believe, where there are no women with questionable night time pursuits and unicorns eat the the grass in Phoenix park

    59
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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:04 PM

    @Micheal: questionable night time pursuits… do you write romance novels aimed at late middle aged men from the 1840s?

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    Mute Gulliver Foyle
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:06 PM

    @AnneMarie Roche: don’t worry, characters like Michael and the “prolife” enthusiasts will be the first in lineto force their daughters and bits on the side to England on the boat. They want to rub the technicalities in everyone’s faces, but they are just in denial. Do you want to come out, Michael – has someone had a termination that you couldn’t control?

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    Mute Mickey Fennessy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:07 PM

    @Micheal: women like men who treat them as equals and not belittle them and insult them.

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:11 PM

    @Gulliver Foyle: All the pro abortion side can do is personal attacks, you can’t argue the point, if somebody disagrees with you then they must have something wrong them?

    59
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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:14 PM

    @Micheal: you are the one personally attacking everyone here and you haven’t actually responded to any substantial point.

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    Mute AnneMarie Roche
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:17 PM

    @Micheal: You are the one living in a make believe world if you think any woman would use abortion as a form of contraception. Or that every fetus aborted is as the result of some harlot having her wicked way with a poor defenceless man. Many abortions occur for babies much wanted and long tried for. I live very much in the real world. ( But would LOVE to see a unicorn in the park)

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:26 PM

    @AnneMarie Roche: Because we don’t have women that have kids just to get more money from the social right now? Because all women have great morals in this welfare state don’t they, I didn’t say all abortions would be a result of a one night stand pregnancy, the ONLY exceptions should be for fatal fetal abnormalities,

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:33 PM

    @Micheal: you get that a one night stand resulting in pregnancy includes a man, too, right?

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    Mute Breda Jennings
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:33 PM

    @Micheal: it’s great that you feel so strongly about “defenceless babies” tell me are you getting involved in the inquiry into the Tuam mother and baby home ? Are you ensuring justice is sought for all of the defenceless babies? If you are great, if not, maybe it is something you should think about doing before making ridiculous comments on this

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    Mute Breda Jennings
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:34 PM

    @Micheal: to meet the men with questionable night time pursuits.

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    Mute David Daly
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:44 PM

    @Micheal: is it the abortions you don’t like or is it the “questionable nighttime persuits”. Who are you to tell anyone what kind of sex life to have. So continue on with your argument without bringing irrelevant nonsense into it.

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    Mute Crpytoalchol
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:46 PM

    @AnneMarie Roche: one question that will solve this issue. At what stage does life start forming/begin?

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:48 PM

    @David Daly: I don’t like? It’s morally wrong to kill innocent babies! You clown

    38
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    Mute AnneMarie Roche
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:55 PM

    @Micheal: So we have moved on to the spongers now? Between them and the hussies I can’t keep up. Call me when you get around to ‘them foreigners ‘

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    Mute David Daly
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:01 PM

    @Micheal: cool the abortions so. Still nothing to do with women’s sex lives

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    Mute Mirabelle Stonegate
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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:28 PM

    @Micheal: so.. would you consider me a “loose woman” if I was to get pregnant under the following circumstances, and then saught an abortion?: Age 31, in a committed relationship, on the most reliable birth control possible (which can still fail), and a virgin until that point?

    The only part of that scenario not currently true is the committed relationship. However, I certainly have no plans to lose my virginity in anything other than such a relationship. Does that make me a loose woman then, if I seek an abortion due to failed birth control? I mean, it’s already in my medical notes that I am seeking sterilisation and have been denied due to being “too young” and that it has been recommended I have children despite never having wanted them, and despite the high risk to my health and wellbeing. But hey, a wholly unwanted bundle of pain and potential death is more important than I am, right?

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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:52 PM

    @Micheal: Reading your comment vindicates what for me was a hard choice. The shaming by a small pack of holier-than-thous rings very frail and very hollow in this new, wonderfully inclusive and much kinder Ireland we life in. The death grip of Rome has finally been cast off.

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    Mute Ian Phillip Creaner
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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:57 PM

    @Micheal: You’re a few decades two late with that quip Mickey. Second Wave Feminism happened in the late 60s and continued into the seventies and trailed off in the 80s. After that it was powerful but sexy women. Wearing very sexy bras, too expensive for burning. I understand that you probably never got to experience that.

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    Mute Pip
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    Dec 1st 2018, 8:47 PM

    @Paddington C.: great point Paddington except men don’t get a say in abortion “choices”

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    Mute Mark McAuley
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 9:24 AM

    @Paddington C.: You do know that up to 40% of mothers have multiple abortions? Perhaps they aren’t loose.. just lacking in intelligence.

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    Mute Ismise Máire
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:46 AM

    This is what happened in Ireland in Nov 2018.

    NO pain relief for all babies being aborted including those after 24 weeks. NONE.

    For the babies that survive abortion (yes of course it happens) NO MEDICAL CARE … let them die.

    Parents of any girl who has an abortion age 16 do not need parental consent. Can you hear the perverts cheering. Open door for grooming children.

    Everyone who voted yes.. no pain relief for the babies???? Is this what you voted for?

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    Mute AnneMarie Roche
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:53 AM

    @Ismise Máire: Where in Ireland are they carrying out abortions after 24 weeks? That needs to be reported to the guards and the medical council. I presume you have proof of this?

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    Mute Only here for the comments
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:26 PM

    @AnneMarie Roche: don’t bother. People like Ismise Maire live in a fantasy land created out of their own imagination.

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    Mute Ismise Máire
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:05 PM

    @AnneMarie Roche: if a baby has been diagnosed with a Life Limiting Condition (so called FFA) they can be aborted after 4 week unlimited… as I am sure you
    -as a yes voter who did her research -
    are well aware.

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    Mute AnneMarie Roche
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:10 PM

    @Ismise Máire: Nice deflection there…which hospital is this happening in?

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    Mute Ian Breathnach
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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:36 PM

    @Ismise Máire: Mental health is a serious problem, you should get help.

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    Mute Mark McAuley
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 9:27 AM

    @Ismise Máire: I wouldn’t bother trying to reason with those who are morally bankrupt. It’s a waste of time.

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    Mute Rob Cahill
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 2:59 PM

    @Mark McAuley: Clown

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:22 PM

    I used to say that 50% of the people who enter the abortionist’s chamber for a ‘medical procedure’ will die, but I was wrong. Here is a fascinating story about a baby left to die was rescued from among the ‘medical waste’ when a nurse heard her cries!
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44357373

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:28 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: I’d be shocked if you represented the true views of the staff of the Gallery and Museum Staff of Ireland. Is this a troll account or are you unilaterally using an official twitter page to push your own agenda? Because if it’s the latter you could lose your job, just FYI.

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    Mute Micheal
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:10 PM

    @Paddington C.: yet again attacking the person by saying he could lose his job, nothing to dispute his comment

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:23 PM

    @Micheal: I don’t think you know what a personal attack is

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:40 PM

    @Paddington C.: My ursine friend. We make no apologies for being Pro life. Many of us in the heritage industry are Pro Life and many in the industry support abortion. This isn’t trolling, it’s simply a fact.
    Two of our group of four aren’t in employment (1 recently retired & 1 career break, so good luck with your dictatorial aspirations of having us fired! We have no agenda. The majority of Ireland voted for this. That doesn’t make it ethically right, but we’re a democracy. Did our story of survival in the face of adversity upset you?

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:38 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: You used to talk hogwash!
    As you used to work in a museum,did you ever do research into illegal abortions that were carried out on poor women ? If you did,you would realise that those were the ones where there was a high risk of death to the people that procured them.

    67% of terminations will be carried out before & during the 8th week of pregnancy,there will be no survival for the 100% of “people” that will be removed from the persons womb…

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 6:52 PM

    @Micheal: Thanks. Ad hominem attacks are a sign that someone has a weak argument. Young Paddington protesteth a little too loudly.

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 7:02 PM

    @Francis Mc Carthy: I find your emotive use of the term ‘hogwash’ superfluous to this debate. If you’re going to kill, kill without trying to justify yourself. Why are you explaining basic biology to us? Of course an unborn baby will die if torn from the womb at an early enough stage. Taking a life is taking a life, whether in or ex utero. Can you live with your ‘choice’? I certainly can.

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 7:32 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland:speaking of emotive language,there’s no such medical term as an “unborn baby” -it is either an embryo or a foetus.
    As the majority of terminations will be carried out via the medical abortion,could you then please explain, in great detail, as to how an embryo is ‘torn from the womb’ ?

    Can I live with giving the women the right to end an unwanted/wanted pregnancy? You bet I can!

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 7:38 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: Are we supposed to care about some American woman that “survived” an abortion back a few decades ago ? Got any new material ?

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 8:18 PM

    @Francis Mc Carthy: I’m not saying that you ‘should’ care about a baby that survived against all odds. It is disappointing, but not surprising that you lack appear to lack the compassion. The baby’s nationality (now an adult) is irrelevant. I don’t have “any new material”, as most abortions are executed successfully (lethally), rarely leaving survivors.
    I won’t take the bait by elucidating what “torn from the womb” means. It’s way too disturbing. I’ll just say this: I’ve seen tumors treated with more dignity and they’re usually removed in one piece.
    As for semantics and the terminology of termination; ‘fetus’, ‘embryo’ or ‘baby’ maybe, but all Human life being taken.

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 8:55 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: I have plenty of compassion inside of me,it’s just that I don’t show any of it to an American woman who tried to stop Irish women from having the right to a safe,legal abortion in their own country.
    You won’t talk about the medical abortion,as you know that the embryo is barely visible inside of what is expelled from the womb..

    When do you believe that ‘human life’ should get protection ?

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    Mute Cora Brooks
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 7:20 AM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff well your post belongs where your name suggests

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    Mute Cora Brooks
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 7:24 AM

    @Micheal: he or she should use their own view not a collective view. If a state company is being used then the statements using this post would be illigal.

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    Mute Donnachaín Ní Uallacháin
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 8:57 AM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: nobody bought those made up fake videos during the campaign. They’re certainly not buying them now.

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    Mute Mark McAuley
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 9:29 AM

    @Paddington C.: you’re a wicked person. Imagine talking about a person’s job just because they have an opinion different to you.. You’re mentally disturbed. I experienced a lot of this behaviour prior to the referendum. Evil wicked people.

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    Mute Ultan Rooney
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:39 PM

    I am pro-choice but anti free abortion. This is unfair to those who do not support abortion. I do not want my taxes going towards free abortion. No other country in the world offers free abortions

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    Mute Karen Wellington
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    Dec 1st 2018, 2:15 PM

    @Ultan Rooney: the United Kingdom. Free isn’t really the correct term, but abortion is an approved procedure on the NHS.

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    Mute Spelled with a See
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 2:23 PM

    @Ultan Rooney: We don’t get to control how our taxes are spent. Why do non smokers fund cancer care for smokers? Why do marathon runners fund healthcare for obese people? Why do we fund viagra through the HSE? Why do my taxes fund water wasters rather than having them charged by use through Irish water? It’s part of the social contract.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:22 AM

    You can see them taking an eternity debating the fist 3 and then they’ll barely glance over the other 60, because time is short and their month long xmas holidays are coming.

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    Mute Sean Conway
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    Dec 1st 2018, 2:09 PM

    @Adrian: The days of seven chidren in a family are gone. no matter how catholic they are.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Dec 1st 2018, 2:46 PM

    @Sean Conway: unless you’re a politician, ie: the FF finance spokesman. Just shows the ridiculuous unjustifiable money they are paying themselves.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:36 AM

    I wonder how much expertise, experience, qualifications these tds have (ony anything) to debate very important national issues, and then pass laws on them. Isn’t this part of the reason why this country is in such a mess.

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:38 AM

    @Adrian: to be fair… our Taoiseach is a qualified doctor.

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    Mute Jason Byrne
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:59 AM

    @Paddington C.: Who was pro-life for the vast majority of his career .

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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:02 PM

    @Jason Byrne: that’s really beside the point I was making, but I have a lot of respect for people who can change their minds based in good arguments.

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    Mute Frank Brennan
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:16 PM

    @Paddington C.: The argument to kill or not to kill . Some argument .What a shower of Muppets that are running this country.Yeah it’s okay to kill your own .The mind boggles..

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    Mute Paddington C.
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:26 PM

    @Frank Brennan: I don’t think that was the argument.

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 3:05 PM

    @Jason Byrne: Very true. No matter what side of the debate you’re on, Leo switched sides when it suited. That’s a fact.

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:38 PM

    @Paddington C.: Crippen, Holmes, Mengle and Shipman were qualified doctors too.

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    Dec 1st 2018, 6:25 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: being a doctor doesn’t make anyone more right. But the original question was “what qualifications” do these people have to be discussing these issues. Being a doctor is a pretty good qualification to have when discussing medical issues.

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 7:10 PM

    @Paddington C.: You make a good point there. Doctors should be proficient at discussing medical issues. Unfortunately, it’s the ethical issues that I’m concerned about.

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    Mute Cora Brooks
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 7:29 AM

    @Paddington C.: there hasn’t been any good arguments just statements and costs because of the two doctor rule it’s costing delays that will end up wasting money and serv ices in this backward/forward country of ours. Bet one of more of these tds will be making money off the back of this service.

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    Mute Seamus Walshe
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    Dec 1st 2018, 6:16 PM

    This is the ultimate EVIL, the killing of the most innocent and purest of us all thanks to Harris and his government who have left no stone unturned to make sure it will happen!

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 8:54 PM

    The pro abortion side played the propaganda game so well by substituting the unpalatable term ‘Pro Abortion’ with the more marketable term ‘Pro Choice’. The association of the abortion campaign with ‘YES’ and ‘TA’ meant that the Protect The 8th Camp had an uphill battle by being under the banner of ‘NO’ with it’s negative connotations. The ‘referendum’ was set up to garner a ‘YES’ vote from the start. Leo saw the writing on the wall and cleverly switched sides to appease the mob and remain in office.
    However, with all their artifice and skillful propaganda, the pro choice side aren’t immune to self contradictions..
    It would be amusing if it weren’t tragic, to hear the oxymoron ‘safe abortion’ analogous to ‘soft torture’, ‘gentle stabbing’, ‘playful dismemberment’ or ‘humorous evisceration’!

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 8:59 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: The ‘pro,safe legal abortion’ side…

    time to put the 8th into a museum.You can yap away about how you were so proud of Irish women having to travel to the UK to procure a safe,legal abortion..

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 9:19 PM

    @Francis Mc Carthy: Congratulations. You and the majority of Irish people have beaten the Pro Life side. Democracy has spoken!
    However.
    We in the Pro Life camp have chosen to remain paddling in the gene pool for a while longer though and won’t be partaking of your Darwinian auto cull.
    To quote Ann Robinson:
    “Goodbye. You are the weakest link”!
    (No offence intended)

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 10:28 PM

    @Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland: The “Pro Life” side beat themselves.They did that by coming out with the same nonsense that you have been coming out with.Please don’t change your ways :-)

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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Dec 1st 2018, 10:48 PM

    @Francis Mc Carthy: Ditto. Goodnight and thanks for the interesting debate :-)

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    Mute Larry Smierciak
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:28 PM

    Just wondering if there is any other medical procedure that requires a patient to wait three days?

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    Mute eric nelligan
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    Dec 1st 2018, 1:50 PM

    @Larry Smierciak: any other ‘medical’ procedure where the life is being deliberately ended?

    Abortion is fairly unique

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    Mute Aine O Connor
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    Dec 1st 2018, 2:19 PM

    @Larry Smierciak:
    I know people who are waiting years for heart operations, hip and knee replacements, diagnostic tests, children waiting For scoliosis surgery etc etc.

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:47 PM

    @eric nelligan: the woman’s life isn’t been ended,her pregnancy is..

    As long as women & men are having sex,there will be a need for abortions.
    So what this then means is that we have two choices ; abortions in a safe environment
    or
    abortions in an unsafe environment

    I voted for the former :-)

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    Dec 1st 2018, 4:48 PM

    @Aine O Connor: they were told that they’ll get the heart in three days ? Wow!

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    Mute Aine O Connor
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    Dec 1st 2018, 6:13 PM

    @Francis Mc Carthy:
    What are u on about.?

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    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
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    Dec 1st 2018, 7:21 PM

    @Aine O Connor: what was the question that Larry asked again ?

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    Mute Cora Brooks
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    Dec 2nd 2018, 7:39 AM

    @Aine O Connor: look they will continue to wait as our health service is two tiered the abortion serivce will be two tiered. One amendment put forward but defeated was the state did not pay for fatal FEATAL abnormality nor if the life of the mother is at Irish it was defeated thankfully. As our health service is being dismantled to incorporate the two teur systems those with money pays for the abortion hip, knee replacements, while who depending on HSE will continue to wait for those operations sadly.

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    Mute Brian McDonnell
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    Dec 1st 2018, 12:18 PM

    The only thing we the people voted for was to remove an article of the constitution. Once the article was removed it was then up to the Dail and Seanad to create new legislation. Committees, proposals, debates, amendments, and amendments to amendments is how that process work.
    Anyone who told you otherwise during the referendum was either lying through their teeth or an idiot.

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    Mute Colin Patrick Buckley
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    Dec 1st 2018, 11:36 AM

    But … But … But …. But!!!

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