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NETFLIX HAS REMOVED an episode of a satirical comedy show from its service in Saudi Arabia over its criticism of the kingdom, following a legal request by officials in Riyadh.
The move was widely denounced by rights groups including Amnesty International, which said it risks facilitating a crackdown on freedom of expression in Saudi Arabia.
In the episode of “Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj,” the American-born Muslim lashed out at the kingdom after the October killing of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.
He specifically criticised Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, and was also critical of the Saudi-led military campaign in Yemen.
“We strongly support artistic freedom worldwide and removed this episode only in Saudi Arabia after we had received a valid legal request — and to comply with local law,” a Netflix spokeswoman said in a statement Tuesday.
The streaming giant added it had received a takedown request citing an article of its cybercrime law as the reason.
Article 6 of the law states that “production, preparation, transmission, or storage of material impinging on public order, religious values, public morals, and privacy, through the information network or computers” is a crime punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine not exceeding 3 million Saudi riyals ($800,000).
The episode can still be seen in other parts of the world — and in Saudi Arabia on YouTube.
‘Quite outrageous’
In December, the US Senate approved two symbolic resolutions blaming Prince Mohammed for the killing of Khashoggi, after intelligence reports pointed in that direction, and urging an end to US participation in the Yemen war.
“Saudi Arabia’s censorship of Netflix… is further proof of a relentless crackdown on freedom of expression in the kingdom,” said Samah Hadid, Amnesty’s Middle East campaigns director.
“By bowing to the Saudi Arabian authorities’ demands, Netflix is in danger of facilitating the kingdom’s zero-tolerance policy on freedom of expression and assisting the authorities in denying people’s right to freely access information.”
Karen Attiah, Khashoggi’s editor at The Washington Post, said Netflix’s action was “quite outrageous.”
The Saudi information ministry did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
Low ranking on press freedom
Online platforms and tech companies face increasing scrutiny and growing public skepticism in the face of controversies about data sharing and the steady erosion of privacy.
In October, the press freedom watchdog group Reporters Without Borders ranked Saudi Arabia as 169th out of 180 countries for press freedom, adding that “it will very probably fall even lower in the 2019 index because of the gravity of the violence and abuses of all kinds against journalists”.
After releasing its annual study of global internet freedom, another watchdog, Freedom House, said in November that Saudi Arabia was among those employing “troll armies” to manipulate social media and, in many cases, drown out the voices of dissidents.
Minhaj, 33, has seen his profile rise steadily in recent years. His routines combine personal history and pointed political commentary wrapped in edgy topical humour.
In 2014, he became senior correspondent on Comedy Central’s popular “The Daily Show,” and in 2017 was the featured speaker at the White House Correspondents’ dinner.
“Patriot Act” debuted in October 2018.
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A parents major concern…. Are you a good competent teacher with my childs best interests at heart? if the answer is yes then I’m happy. Everything else is irrelevant.
Gay. Straight. Black. White. What does it matter?
It shouldn’t in 2014 in Ireland. It’s sad that it does seem to.
Here is a story for the Journal, What is it like being poor In Ireland.
33 people are homophobes. Sad lives. Sad uneducated backward simple laughing stock people
I agree Aireach, but I would add as a parent that I would never want my child to be a student in such an environment. It beggars belief that, in this day and age, nearly 100% of our public, and publicly-funded, schools are still run in line with the ethos of (mostly) the Catholic Church – even when we know from successive polls that a majority of parents do not want religious schools. This is our state education system.
Some will contend that Catholic schools these days are open and inclusive – that is utter rubbish and the facts do not bear it out. I can hardly imagine what it would be like working for years with colleagues and having consistently to hide the fact from them that I had a husband. It is completely unacceptable and hideous.
This topic is as valid as any other going on at the moment Seamus. That people in 2014 in Ireland are being judged for their sexuality is an absolute atrocity and should be openly discussed to show us for the bigoted nation we are, still ruled by the Catholic church.
One does agree, however the poor don’t have a voice. Hence, my point.
My daughters principle is lesbian in a Catholic all girls secondary school. It doesn’t bother me one bit. Doesn’t bother my daughter either.
What if indeed yes I am ‘a good competent teacher with my childs best interests at heart?’, yet a person who is made to feel worthless, berated and belittled simply because of the way they live outside of school. A person who wholeheartedly puts YOUR child first, a person who works within an environment so uncomfortable it hurts, who is looked down upon, has no chance of progression or future! A person who worked so hard to be able to teach your children yet is rewarded by being treated as a second class citizen. I shed tears for those who go through this every single day as they try to simply TEACH! Yet because of their sexuality they are made to feel lesser humans by the Catholic Church, the government and the people of Ireland! I hope and pray this referendum will mark the start of a major change for the sake of YOUR child and that they have the chance to bring up their children in country who respects people in a fair, right and just way.
It’s 2014. Why is this even legal??
It’s disgraceful to hear that people who have dedicated their lives to educating our children are being treated this way. Who cares what sexuality they identify with? If this was a racial issue there would be no question of legal action and public outcry.
It’s legal because the RC Church persuaded the government to give them legal immunity against having to employ (or against deciding to summarily fire) teachers in schools of RC patronage who have lifestyles that go against Catholic Church doctrine (specifically gay lifestyles). It’s a pretty abominable state of affairs, to say nothing of the fact that it’s the STATE that pays teachers’ wages, NOT the Church.
Ruairí Quinn really needs to take the finger out and address this blatant discrimination.
I’m ashamed I did not know about this immunity given to RC schools, horrified and disgusted. This needs to be addressed immediately, it is disgraceful.
Im starting to think Martin Luther and co had a point,
Winding down
A certain “catholic lobby group”( you know who im talking about,)actively campaigned to have this policy kept so schools couldn’t he prosecuted for being anti gay
In other words the schools could sack perfectly good teachers if they knew these perfectly good teachers were gay
Disgraceful truly disgraceful
Mr L Jay: Let’s all called a spade a spade here, and name and shame them. The Iona “Institute”.
If a lobby group exerts such a sinister influence on Irish law, why shouldn’t they be called out for for their homophobia? People need to know what impact groups like this are having on our democratic society.
Whatever happened to the constitutional right to earn a livelihood? The daily fear that gay teachers must live with in the workplace, knowing they can be sacked tomorrow for loving somebody of the same gender, is quite unfathomable.
Theres no doubt Iona exerts a sinister influence on our political parties. The payout is another example of this.
Any possibility we could sometime have a debate about what it is like being a separated or divorced person in the Ireland of today and how lonely a place that can be.
Contact the Journal and see if they’ll take a piece from you about it. They’re quite open to taking stuff off members of the public. Then you’ll be the one starting the discussion and it’ll be from the point of view of some one who experiences it rather than being told what it’s like by someone outside the experience.
Thanks Ciaran will do that was not aware could do so and apologies for introducing an unrelated topic
I’m really upset reading this article, I’m upset as a parent of primary & secondary school children that there may be a teacher in my children’s schools who is gay and feeling like this and I’m upset as a human being that other human beings are made to feel like this in an educational setting. It is absolutely unacceptable that people are discriminated against simply for being gay, I’d be far more concerned about the quality and professionalism of teachers than their personal sexual preferences. I’m disgusted and hurt on behalf of these teachers :-(
I wish there were more people like you in Ireland.
There *are* more people like Roaring Green in Ireland. We’re just really bad at making ourselves heard. If we want something to change we get up off our arses and do something. Write to TDs, Ministers, Senators, papers, lobby groups, anyone with any sway or voice and tell them where your vote, your custom or whatever else will go if they don’t work for change; go to their clinics and public meetings and let them know face to face.
There’s sod all point in waiting for top down change: the governments only change things when it untenable *not* to and if the votes are gone elsewhere they’ll consider moving their leaden arses themselves.
The fact is that this is the tip of the iceberg. If people do not want schools run expressly along the lines of Catholic doctrine and the Bible, then we all need to be telling our Government in the strongest possible terms that we want them to give contracts and funding to deliver our state education system to education providers that are completely inclusive and non-sectarian.
Because this is the situation: while successive polls show that parents do not want schools run along religious lines, we still have nearly 100% of schools that are run in line with a religious ethos – an ethos that is absolutely not just restricted to RE classes, let us make no mistake here, but pervades the whole education of our children.
I have nothing against any religion and people’s right to choose their own lifestyles, but I do object to this warping of even our own most basic state equality laws to satisfy the voracious need of one group to control the development of our children and ensure they are inculcated only in one narrow set of beliefs.
It is hideous that parents who do not share this medieval outlook mostly have no choice when it comes to choosing a state school for their children – this is a state system we are all paying for and there is no equality and justice for the majority of parents who do not want a segregated religious education for their children any more than there is for those hapless LGBT teachers.
Sorry, I meant to say that successive polls show that a majority of parents do not want a segregated religious education for their children!
Actually there is clear demand for quite a few type of schools. There is no reason to insist one type only unless you have a problem with pluralism.
Michelle we don’t want them run on the principles of the Quran either. We want them secular and we don’t want a day to come when male only teachers are recruited .
Exactly Yako! There is demand for all types of schools – and yet we overwhelmingly have Catholic schools! A poll commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals Network showed that three out of four parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice. So how is that plurality…
Nobody is insisting on one type, but in an area where you have people wanting all different types of schools and there is only funding and numbers for one school, then nobody should be able to insist on one type and so we clearly need a school that can cater for all in these instances – my own personal preference would be for non-denominational schools, but I guess we could all compromise in this kind of situation on multi-denominational schools since they actively celebrate the religious background of all students.
We are far from plurality in Ireland at the moment.
Well Catherine, since we are starting from a place where, for historic reasons, nearly 100% of our state schools are controlled by religious orders, while two thirds of parents would like the choice of a patron other than a church, that is why we have this religious influence in schools in Ireland. I cannot see this happening with Muslim schools in Ireland unless there is a very clear demand from parents and many Irish people become devout Muslims, which seems extremely unlikely. I agree with you that I would prefer schools to be secular and simply cater for all – just the way universities do, or libraries do, or any other public service.
In my opinion this is state sanctioned homophobia, nothing more and nothing less. It should be ended immediately.
The Iona Institute has lobbied to retain Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act so that gay teachers can be discriminated by Roman Catholic schools.
The Iona Institute is ruthlessly opposed to the full rights of gay people.
Indeed, to quote Iona on this matter:
“It is the view of The Iona Institute that insufficient weight in much public discourse at present is being accorded to religious freedom. A view of ‘discrimination’ is taking hold that, logically and consistently applied, would make it extremely difficult for any organisation (religious or otherwise) to uphold its ethos if forced to employ individuals who sought to undermine its ethos directly or indirectly.”
Source: http://www.ionainstitute.ie/assets/files/Section%2037%20submission.pdf
Also:
“Finally, if the Government does back this Bill [i.e. a Bill to revoke the legislation that permits Church-run schools to discriminate against gay teachers], the Catholic hierarchy must be prepared to tell it that all bets are off and refuse to transfer any schools to new patron bodies.”
Source: http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=2828 (penned by David Quinn)
SUCH CLAPTRAP!
Gotta love the bit of blackmail at the end, no “turn the other cheek” eh?
How’s about the government demands patronage be transferred due to the amount of compensation the state is forking out on the churches behalf!?
We need to be clear, – Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act is the root cause of this particular problem, – and it is not just LGBT people that face discrimination under this Act, – non-religious people or those that do not tow the line with the given religious doctrine can also face termination of their employment.
And yet their wages are paid by the state, which is not a religious order and not permitted to discriminate – same goes for any catholic ethos hospital.
If they want to discriminate, perhaps they should actually be the employer rather than just the location of employment.
sounds like something you’d hear from the Neanderthals up here in the north…..
David Quinn, what is he like?! My response to him would be: how about the State stop awarding contracts to deliver our STATE education system to Catholic patrons then, if they are not capable of delivering an inclusive and ethical educational environment? You would think they funded their own schools!!! The fact is that, as well as giving them funding to deliver OUR state education system, the state has spent billions in refurbishing and often completely rebuilding the majority of Catholic schools, which I presume then remain the assets of the church… if they want to go it alone, good luck to them… otherwise do not try to threaten and blackmail us all… unbelievable!
This is 2014. Just let that sink in.
How is this actually possible? Who are these backward old school institutionalised laughing stocks who have no place in society and have nothing of value to add and that are kept going by a twisted, paedophile ring who are corrupt, homophobic, evil, sexist and most of all the dictionary definition of an evil cult (not all I realise).
If you are one of these principles, teachers or priests I can promise you the new world is laughing at you. You are as bad as paedophile in my book. An embarrassment to society. A complete failure in terms of high level direction. You have no business working with children.
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command, your old road is rapidly aging.
How did this sadistic violent aggressive paedophile corrupt cult manage to strike a deal of immunity with lawmakers ie we are not subject to everyone else’s laws here we are sovereign because we don’t like gays. How aren’t we involved with that decision. They don’t even pay the wages of teachers.
They go into schools the same way coca cola would like to be in schools target them young. Let’s monopolize all schools in Ireland leaving the new generation without a choice. Ruadhri Quinn has done nothing on this. Payhetic
“sadistic violent aggressive paedophile corrupt cult manage to strike a deal of immunity with lawmakers ”
If you are going to comment you should try to keep to the facts. There is no legal immunity here. No one would/ has fired anyone for being gay. So lets cut the misinformation please.
“They don’t even pay the wages of teachers.”
Actually they do they fund the schools. Until recently it was a major part each school’s funding.
Are you actually saying that the catholic weren’t violent and sadistic? Where have you been living the last 100 yrs?? Are you for real? Facts, facto, factual, facty, established fact.
Also have a look into the paltry sums of money’s that go to teachers from that deal you’re referring. Peanuts. Nothing. Get your facts in order yako wako. You should learn this from your daily job.
Wrong, two weeks ago a teacher was suspended and later dismissed over Showing a video of Panti Bliss’s Nobel Call video. The one that basically condemns homophobic bullying, She was unable to speak out as she knew she would not get another job, her colleges did however. So maybe you should get your facts sharpened.
Also, teachers are paid by the department of education.
These stories are so upsetting. Solidarity to the teachers concerned, what you go through on a day-to-basis must be heartbreaking. The exemption for Catholic ethos schools is just plain wrong. Surely there’s a need for a campaign on this specific issue?
And here we are in twenty-first century Ireland thinking we are so open and ‘modern’ and inclusive. Those stories make me sick to my core. We might as well be back in the 1950s.
We’ve came a mightily long way since then.
The fact that the last remnant of theocratic Ireland – homophobia – hasn’t yet fully been stamped out as of yet is no reason to ignore the monumental success that Irish society has witnessed over the past few decades.
This is educational Apartheid. Ruairi Quinn repeatedly promised to change the law but has done nothing. In 2012, a FF bill to change the situation was voted down by the govt parties 33-16.
There is one specific area of this debate that I would like to bring peoples attention to. The pejorative use of ‘gay’ is used commonly by teenagers to describe a noun as being undesirable, unsavoury etc. Such ignorant homophobia must be so upsetting and unsettling for LGBT teenagers who already have enough to be dealing with in their lives otherwise. As a youth volunteer, I regularly try to address this usage , but the mindset seems so ingrained, the term is just an ‘accepted’ part of the teenager’s vernacular.
Rural Ireland especially continues to be a most intolerant place. I add my sympathy to the general consensus on this forum.
Kids also say schizo, bipolar, random, bogger, skanger, d4, It goes on and on…. When I was in school we only knew teachers were married if they were a mrs, otherwise it was not noticed what they were, so what has changed? I think if I was a teacher I would like to keep my life private for lots of reasons. You should hear teens take apart their teachers fashion sense…. Being gay or not is only a small part of the jig saw.
Most schools have active anti bullying policies. Many teachers are openly gay. I am sensing there may be a difference outside Dublin. My gay cousin is so out of touch with what goes on with teens today she tends to judge based on her experience in school. A lot has changed in the last 15 years or so, and it keeps changing.
And of course more and more parents are coming out as gay,locked into a marriage. Difficult for the kids of those families.
I have a friend who is openly gay and a teacher. They are now working in another continent because their employment prospects were bad enough without being gay, but pretty much nil because they are.
I was babysitting a while back and asked if the kids wanted to play on the trampoline , i was met with “that’s so lesbian” ,i asked him why jumping on a trampoline was women loving other women and he littrally had no idea whatsoever .I agree that is ingrained but we also need to educate kids so they they properly know homosexuality is and don’t spout this nonsense!
True Eimear, but in some ways it is wrong to blame children for reflecting society’s biases – what is needed is sensitive education and awareness-raising on LGBT issues, but you are never going to get that in a Catholic school, and that is the problem.
As I understand it, a majority of Catholic state schools had still not implemented the state’s Relationships and Sexuality curriculum when inspectors last looked, even though: they are obliged to do so; it is a deeply moral and responsible curriculum; and they even get to change it to suit their ethos.
This is what we are doing to our children.
A friend…. They?
I hope you’re friend, they, didn’t teach you English.
Absolute disgrace..! I cannot believe what I’m reading, this is why we Need to get rid of Catholic run schools..! No right running such a large quantity of our primary schools..! And I can’t believe the way these poor peoples colleges treated them also! Seriously will this country ever wise up and move on….
Absolutely disgusted and horrified reading this article… As a sixth year student in a strongly RC school i can truly see this happening in my school which has only hit it home even further. 2014 people… Please start acting like it!
The problem is that we interfere in people’s lives when it’s none of our business. If a person is gay it’s none of anyone’s business but theirs. We the people, the Government or any other body have the right to interfere in people’s personel lives.
Who’s the principal. Vladimir Puitn? This cannot be allowed to continue in a democracy.
It is unbelievable that gay teachers in Ireland are treated like this – where are the INTO,ASTI and the Minster for Education?….why are other teachers allowing this bullying by fundamentalist Catholics to continue on a daily basis?
I for one am ashamed to live in a country that tolerates this system & gives any justification to those who discriminate – no decent teacher should allow inequality
I don’t know why anyone is surprised. The Catholic Church have demonstrated time and again that they are deeply hostile to the LGBT community. They have been protected and pandered to for decades, and this so called “exemption” is just another addition to their list of needless hatred and ill educated bigotry. It really is breathtaking that any organisation can have itself “exempted” from discrimination! It’s almost a contradiction in terms! I don’t have any children, but if I did, I would make damn sure to get them into an educate together or some other non denominational school, even if it meant a drive of 100 miles or more. I do have nieces and it kills me to see them walking in the door of the local Catholic school, the same school I walked into each morning as a child, and no doubt listen to the same hate filled nonsense, the same mindless indoctrination. Infuriating!
This is really upsetting , but however upsetting this voices need to be heard . Where is the humanity and compassion in the religious ethos espoused by these schools ? Their Christ is absent in this attitude . The common denominator here is religion . Agencies and institutions lobbying for this discrimination should be held to account , funding stopped and prosecuted . Religion is a choice , gender , race sexuality are not . All schools should be free from Religious Management full stop , doctrination can happen outside of schools . All schools should be teaching and celebrating inclusivity , diversity and acceptance with compassion and humanity being the common denominators.
I’m sure there would be uproar from the teaching unions if the RCC even attempted to fire a gay teacher due to ” ethos”. The fact that this still legal is a disgrace and must be changed.
“No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” That’s Article 3 of the European Convention of Human Rights. Ireland has been found liable for abuses in schools under this article in January of this year (O’Keeffe v Ireland). Previously, all liability and responsibility was under the Board of Management of each school but that, in law, will now have to change. It could be argued that Section 37, which provides for discrimination under religious freedom, goes against Article 3 particularly as the State must now take responsibility for such in schools and cannot use “religious freedom” as an excuse. Essentially, Section 37 is now redundant and MUST be removed.
The stories above are horrifying and no-one should have to live through such despicable attitudes towards them for any reason.
School’s should be encouraging kids not to be homophobic, shouldn’t they be teaching kids to accept others the way they are…. How can Ireland move with the times if the educators of this country are backwards…. Disgusted at what im reading here…. Religion had no place in schools get the church out of schools altogether there causing more harm then good at this stage
Any heterosexual stories for us?
RTE.ie should be sufficiently backward for you! :)
Are ypu chastised and bullied for your sexuality? No then go away
D1
Dont be inconsiderate
D1: Yup – here’s a heterosexual story, posted not two hours ago. This is the link, in case you missed it: http://www.thejournal.ie/scientology-wedding-london-britain-first-united-kingdom-1330315-Feb2014/
Yes please. More stories about straight, white, middle aged men and how oppressed they are. Almost as oppressed as ice cream and fluffy things.
You mean stories about life for the non-subjugated, always tolerated majority? what Martin Grehan said
There’s always one. Go on, tell us a heterosexual story.
@There are a lot of idiot trolls who turn up on all the gay articles on the Journal, Tom Doyle is one of them. Don’t rise to it, he seems to get turned on by annoying people and spreading negativity and homophobia, very strange habits if you ask me..
These stories are unfortunately all too real, I know two teachers who are not out, and one who is, because he happens to work for the VEC therefore he doesn’t have to tolerate the Catholic ethos equality exemption.. the other two have to keep quiet for fear of attracting attention…
Really glad the journal is bringing this up, along with equal marriage, this issue it one of the defining human rights issues for gay people in Ireland at the moment…
Why should it matter to anyone with whom the teachers sleep outside school hours. This is crazy
Isn’t it just amazing how many people think they speak on behalf of god ( who is meant to love us all by the way) rich, poor ,black ,white , man or woman. They are fixated on the sexual act, What’s with that?? PERVERTS I think. They should get a life :-)
It’s ingrained in people, religion, culture since time began … The sad fact is it will not be eradicate over night…
Its the young people coming up who will demand that the like of this law are repealed. they, the next generation, simply won’t stand for such posturing by ANY church but particularly the RCC after the damage they have done to this country and to many others as well. we are moving forward, slowly, we are still a young country remember. it will change. as for the Iona crowd……let them enjoy themselves now……their day will come too…..have faith in the young ones just waiting around the corner.
“the RCC after the damage they have done to this country”
Who needs fact when you have a catch-all scapegoat.
Yako, you have to admit that the church hasn’t exactly covered themselves with glory with their response to their wrong doings.
These stories are heartbreaking. It should not be possible for any school receiving state funding to discriminate on these grounds. It is a disgrace. It is a mind-boggling disgrace.
Mar mhúinteoir aerach…as an out gay teacher I’d like to praise those who contributed to the article. I came out to my school chairperson over 8 years ago and I have never had a problem. I put this down to parents and children, in a non-denominationally managed school, supporting their schoolteachers in whatever way they need that support. The difficulty arises from school politics and control, as teachers and/or management jostle for control and seniority and use differences such as sexuality, gender, family status to bully colleagues. I’m writing this to praise…it is Monday after all…well done to brave teachers and people who support them…
Well said pol.
Cá bhfuilir, a phóil?
I care about them . I don’t see why people should be discriminated against and isolated for the way they were born . Compassion costs nothing.
The Catholic ethos has once again, via the stories above (which I take as truth; no reason to disbelieve them in how they’re presented and also based on a society in which Gay bashing verbally and physically still exists) raised its’ head above the parapet.
Those of a certain generation will recall the quite vicious abortion and divorce debates in the 80s and 90s etc.
Teachers in National and Primary and Secondary Schools with a Catholic ethos were leaned upon, prevailed upon to campaign and vote for an outcome (“No” in both cases) by Boards of Management, Principals etc. to vote in a particular fashion to reflect this ethos, teaching, the beliefs of the school etc.
Given the percentage of schools with a Catholic ethos back then (even more so than the various figures of 84-90% being quoted on here), that was a serious lobby.
That was wrong. It was unfair to put such pressure on teachers then in the same way as it is unfair to put this pressure on LGBT Teachers now to hide their’ orientation from their’ profession.
It shouldn’t matter but due to the exemption it does.
With Teachers Conferences coming up at Easter time, surely given the enlightened debate we’re finally having since the Saturday Night Show aired on the 11th of January, it is time for the TUI, ASTI & INTO to put forward a motion calling for the exemption that allows a school to have the backing of such discrimination on its’ side, to dismiss a teacher, removed and rescinded from the statute books?
We look at Russia and the Winter Olympics in Sochi and gasp that such homophobic utterances and acts as tolerated by Putins’ administration are “allowed”.
We look at Uganda with it’s Anti-Gay Laws and think how backward too.
And rightly so.
But how much better than those two examples are we really?
We should never be influenced by outside factors such as job stability on issues such as abortion, divorce, marriage equality etc.
Our’ heads, our’ hearts & our’ conscience, which should all align ought be the only influence in this regard.
Ends.
time to axe this so called Section 37 of Employment Equality Act, and to abolish all RC state run schools and furthermore, remove religious studies from school’s curriculum.
Am horrified, beyond stupefied that these teachers feel threatened, not by homophobia, but what they followed in their hearts in the chosen field of teaching, to be without a job because of their sexuality… ffs, 21st century Ireland…
That is demoralizing, my heart goes out to them.
I pray for Keith Mills, that he grows a brain to read the full article before he comments…
Very simple. If you are gay, why take a job in a school with a Christian ethos? It’s like a vegetarian taking a job in a butchers’ shop. If you’re going to be uncomfortable where you work, get a job elsewhere and spare us all this self inflicted victim-hood..
Would you say the same if the issue was about skin colour, gender or age?
What religions have teachings on skin colour or age? And when it come to gender, if (for example) a Moslem school decided that it was only appropriate for men to teach boys and women to teach girls, then I would have no issue with it. People have a right to their religious beliefs, and if a school has a religious ethos, that too should be respected.
Diarmuid you clearly have never been a woman working in an all male environment.
Fair enough Keith.. So if you are gay you should avoid becoming a teacher if you wish to work in Ireland.
Because the vast majority of schools have a “catholic ethos”, over 90% in fact. Even when you bear in mind that the best possible figure Catholics can cite as followers is 84% on the census (bums on pews would not garner this high a figure), this means that in terms of education – Catholics are grossly over represented.
And if you’re gay – they are legally allowed to discriminate against you.
A vegetarian won’t WANT to work in a butchers, but a gay person may very well want to teach, and the over represented catholic school cabal actively discriminate against them. So your comparison is quite frankly nonsense. The fact remains that these organisations – who do not even pay the teachers (the state, ie YOU AND ME, does) they merely sit on the board of management, and are happily discriminating.
Any other industry (except hospitals with a “catholic ethos”) would be rightly forced to compensate someone for this form of discrimination under the equality act 2004.
Their religion is being used as an excuse for bigotry – something the figurehead of said religion was supposed to be against.
There are a lot of places in Ireland where there isn’t a non-denominational school. And given the economic climate, people might not have an alternative. They have bills to pay, same as the rest of us.
No Shanti, you should seek employment in schools that don’t have a religious ethos. If 10% (and growing) of schools do not have a religious ethos then that provides more than enough opportunity for gay people, who most certainly do not make-up 10% of the population.
Why are religious schools so popular (even when non-religious schools are available)? I would suggest that part of the reason is that parents know that the teachers have to conform (at least in principle) to a certain set of religious and moral teachings.
Take religion out of schools now!! Free thinking future for our kids please
Then if it’s such an issue, move to a place that offers more options. The big cities (esp. Dublin) already serve as a magnet to the “gay community”.
nialls, thanks for that insight into the fascistic thinking in some of he anti-religious mob. It really does help to show how gay people are being used as the thin end of the wedge to drive religious thinking and morality out of society and how some gay people are stupid enough to be used as pawns in this.
Pray for our souls Keith.
If it’s a private and self funding school then it can adhere to whatever “ethos” it wants, but not if it’s funded by the taxpayer, no way do I want my taxes supporting an unjust discriminatory policy particularly from an organisation that often doesn’t adhere to it’s own ” ethos” ie shielding paedophile priests.
You do realise that Christians pay tax as well and are entitled to have a say in how their children are educated?) If there was no demand for these schools, they would did away and there would be huge demand for non-religious schools. If anything the opposite is true. There is nothing unjust about an employer asking its employees to respect its ethos. It happens all the time.
One basic question that hasn’t been asked on this thread. How many teachers have been sacked for their sexuality? Because if the answer is “none”, this is a total non-story.
Keith.
Why are the schools so popular? Er, they’re not.. They just happen to be the local schools and parents have to go through the whole charade of a baptism just to get their kids names down – because the school is allowed to “favour” children “baptised in the local parish”..
See? The whole reason we even have 84% identifying as catholic in this country is because up until relatively recently the only option for most was to be baptised, communed and confirmed – just so they could avail of the STATE funded free education.
If a catholic school wants to discriminate and be catholic, let them – but let them pay their own teachers and get minimal funding from the state. As the situation stands now our government is funding this openly homophobic discrimination, by people who claim to live by the ethos of “live one another as I have loved you” ie, unconditionally.
Keith I’m not anti religious. I do think, however that religion is anti society. I think that if parents want there kids to learn that stuff (much of which is preaching hate against many groups, not just gay) then teach their own kids. So yes there is a connection
The fact is they ARE more popular, look a the application numbers for second level and you’ll see it. Once again Catholics (and all Christians) pay tax which funds schools.
There is nothing “homophobic” about this. It is simply observing and respecting the religious ethos of the school. Again if gay teachers have such a big issue with respecting he ethos of their employer, look elsewhere for work. If I felt uncomfortable with the ethos of my employer I wouldn’t work for them, even if it meant the minor inconvenience of moving house.
sorry nialls You cannot seriously suggest you are not anti-religious and then follow it up with that bile. You’re either a troll or in self-denial.
Keith I’m an atheist Thank GOD!! Relax my man :)
I am not anti religious. I have nothing against anyone practicing any religion. I do, however, have a problem with religion influencing our kids from a young age. They can make their own decisions when they are 18. They can look forward to their first pint and first communion at the same time if they want…..their choice!! Why the need to brainwash them??
Brainwash away in your own time. Don’t stop my kid from having extra science and maths classes because they have to attend religion classes (not to mention all the hours lost preparing for communion/confirmation). I didn’t vote for the Catholic Church to educate my child.
Oh dear.. Whatever about the patronage of primary education, you realise that there are even LESS options for secondary schools right? Even those who send their kids to an educate together primary are often forced to send their kids to a Cathie secondary – even around Dublin and it’s suburbs.
It’s got nothing to do with demand for a catholic ethos, polls have consistently shown that parents want more non denominational school options.
The numbers applying has nothing to do with whether they are “popular” it’s to do with what is available..
Are you seriously trying to argue that the reason we have so many catholic schools is because that’s what people want?
And yes, Catholics pay taxes too, but what about all those who aren’t catholic having to find schools whose primary purpose is to indoctrinate kids and educate them second?
I mean look around you, the standard of education in them can’t be too good – far too many people don’t understand grammar, even less understand logic. These should be among the basic building blocks of an education.
Cathie? Where did I get that from? I meant catholic.
There are very few non religious schools in Ireland so looking for a job elsewhere wouldn’t be possible .This kind of treatment applies to straight teachers also , I was told that living with my boyfriend would contravene the ethos of the school.
@Keith…
How nice it must be to sit and judge and never even imagine what it’s like to walk in someone else’s shoes…
When you said gay people suffer from “self inflicted victim it hood’ kinda said it all for me…
@Keith Mills..
Were you not on the Saturday night show recently with Breda O’Brien’s son – the homophobia debate? …
Lovely election poster of Ronan Mullen on your facebook by the way…
Someone doesn’t understand their stats very well. Parents sending in more applications to Catholic schools when Catholic schools are the majority of schools in Ireland does not mean that the majority of parents want to send their children to Catholic schools.
Children have to be educated until they’re 16. Parents who work full time can’t home school their children. Plenty of parents can’t afford to pay for a home school tutor, nor can many afford to move house or pay high transport fees for their children to attend a non-denominational school that isn’t nearby. It’s ridiculous to claim that Catholic schools would have died out if parents didn’t want them when there are very few places available in non-denominational schools and education until the age of 16 is mandatory by law. Would you expect the parents to simply not send their children to school and face fines and jail time? I’d take being sent to a Catholic school over having my parents prosecuted if it was up to me.
I went to a Catholic school, which prioritised students on the basis of religion and nepotism – if you were a Catholic and had relatives who had attended the school previously, you were more likely to get in. I never experienced my teachers being homophobic, but I certainly saw homophobic behavior from my peers. I was forced by my teachers to participate in masses when I identified as agnostic. Another teacher made a snide remark about me when I chose not to embark on a religious day trip with the rest of my year. I had to participate in mandatory religion class in senior cycle, despite not being examined in the subject for my Leaving Cert. That was 1.5 hours a week I could have better spent preparing for my exams or taking extra classes in languages, maths, or physics. I’d have much preferred to attend a non-denominational school.
Oh dear goodness it *is* him..
That explains a lot, and the picture of Ronan Mullen is the icing on the cake..
Well, I did say catholic schools did a poor job of educating people to think critically, instead they teach blind trust in the authority.
I dunno about anyone else here, but I would prefer kids to be taught *how* to think instead of *what* to think..
But 96% of schools have a Christian ethos according to Ruairi Quinn in the Seanad debate on the failed FF bill to scrap Section 37 in 2012.
there are so many non-religeous schools in this country that of course a gay teacher would have a great range of choices as to where to work……………..oh wait we don’t
and a gay teacher would have a great range of choices as to where to get a job in a non-religous school because there are loads of those…………….oh wait there aren’t.
With you on this one Shanti
Shanti, you are so right. I never knew schools could fire a teacher because they are gay. That is bizarre. Do they think it’s catching?
I disagree with your statement to take religion out of schools, I would suggest that the RE curriculum be reformed to be less about teaching one specific ethos and more about learning about tolerance and understanding of the various belief systems and giving children food for thought on what makes sense for them and the space to question what is they believe while learning to respect what other people believe.
Agreed Nikki, it’s better to learn *about* religion because it informs context about the customs and histories of other places – and to remove it altogether would make us all very ignorant of the world.
Being taught *a* religion, alongside being taught *about* other religions through the chosen religions lens holds up a skewed version and therefore not likely accurate version of those other religions.
For example – being taught that Buddhists worship Buddha. I thought this until I went out and learned more myself. I was never taught anything at all about seikhs, what I was taught about paganism was that it was a murderous, evil bunch of devil worshippers – which is not true in the slightest. And apparently some schools teach that atheism is bad too, which is utterly ludicrous because there’s no set ideology in atheism.
I have seen catholic school children recoil in horror and start blessing themselves when they see a Muslim woman boarding the bus they’re on within the past 5 years.
If you are going to have a religion class, it needs to be objective. Lest it end up becoming a vehicle to fuel hatred.
Well Keith, when Christian schools stop taking state money to deliver a state education, you might have a point, but wait.. no, you really still would not. Would you think it OK for, let’s say, universities to discriminate against Christians and only tolerate them attending university on the strict understanding that they never even mention the fact that they are Christian?
The other point is that, despite successive polls showing that more than 60% of parents do NOT want a religious education for their children, our state is mysteriously still funding (with all our money) nearly 100% religious schools to deliver our state education system, and also paying for the refurbishment and re-building of those schools’ assets. Basically it is not a system where independent schools get state funding – it is a situation where the state is contracting with religious organisations to deliver our STATE education system, and is also paying for the buildings, which remain the assets of those organisations. These religious organisations simply could never stand alone.
In that respect, with our money and being contracted to deliver a state education to nearly all of our children, who come from families where a majority don’t want a religious education, I would suggest religious schools realise how very lucky they are that we are all supporting them with our taxes (even though I don’t want to) and try to start complying with the law of the land and basic justice and respect.
Keith, let’s have some facts:
A poll commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals Network showed that three out of four parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice. Successive polls all show that a majority of parents (no matter what their own religious convictions) do NOT want their children to attend a religious school.
96% of Irish primary schools are run by a religious group. These schools receive state funding.
It is an utter delusion that a majority of parents actively CHOOSE to sent their child to a religious school. Given that nearly all schools are religious, firstly most parents in most parts of the country do not have the choice IN OUR STATE EDUCATION SYSTEM to send their child to a school that is not (most likely) one with an avowed Catholic ethos.
Some parents choose fee-paying Catholic schools (also subsidised by the state) because they think their children will get a better education, smaller classes, frankly not have to mix with the hoi polloi). This is mostly not because those schools are Catholic. For the majority of parents in a government study I saw, this is not at all high on their list of priorities when choosing a school. Fact.
If a state education system wants to cater for all in a situation where a majority of parents want a non-religious patron for their children’s school, then the state should direct that funding, and award those contracts, to those who can deliver an education system that respects and includes all. It is a fact that even religious parents do not necessarily want a segregated education for their children, so numbers of people who say they are Christian on the census (it’s also well known many just put what they were christened without thinking) is not even relevant. If you are a cash-strapped state and you want to provide a service – let’s say universities, libraries, etc – would you set up separate ones for each religion (in each town) at massive cost; only have ones that cater to a minority (as with our current education system); or set them up simply to cater for all?
We have to stop giving our state funding to religious patrons – let them stand on their own two feet.
“We have to stop giving our state funding to religious patrons – let them stand on their own two feet.”
the patrons own the schools. The very buildings themselves as they built them with generations of private fund-raising. So if you want to ban patronage you will need to start building a lot of extra schools. The beauty of the current system is that it caters for people to adjust supply to match demand. This is happening as it stands. More ETs are being set up. The system works.
You mean like the universities do in Iran where Bahai students are routinely expelled or denied access to a university education because they are not Muslim ? I have a friend who us not Christian and completed a degree in theology with no issues at all .
Yako – a massive chunk of the buildings in our schools while being built on land a belonging to the church were also built with public money.
Catherine, this isn’t Iran, you know. Women in Ireland have never been compelled to cover their faces or their hair; there simply was an expectation that people dress decently. At most, Catholic women going to Mass was expected to wear a mantilla, which did not cover the face and which still left the hair partly visible. However, Catholic women are not expected to wear a mantilla anymore.
Furthermore, non-Christian children who attend Christian schools in Ireland are treated with respect.
Let’s get down to it Yako. The money that originally bought land and built schools came from people in the community – people like my parents – who donated the money in church collections. That is where the wealth of the Catholic Church came from. In that respect the considerable assets of the church belong to their communities.
Secondly, the state has refurbished and / or rebuilt most of the school buildings in this country belonging to the church, at massive expense, yet I imagine that those buildings still remain as the assets of the church.
Perhaps, instead of holding the people to ransom, the Catholic Church can recognise the huge investment of money that the state has made in the church. I suppose if the Catholic Church decides not to co-operate with the will of the people, and recognise that their assets have been kept up and re-built with state money, then the state may be forced to build its own schools, something we can ill afford. It seems mad for all those church buildings then to lie empty, with no state money to keep them up, making no income, and likely hard to sell…
Would a compromise position – one that recognises that the majority of Irish parents (whose parents have provided every penny the church now has) who want another choice for their children – not be a better idea?
Here’s the list of schools that we, the people, are paying to extend or provide a completely new building, for 2014 – 70 schools around the country, and that is just for 2014… I am assuming they will then remain the assets of the church…
Why not strive for a complete separation of Church and State? Why should one particular religion/faith have such an overbearing influence on either the education of children or the employment/career prospects of qualified professionals? Too often, historically, religion has been used as a weapon to intimidate and cow people into submission.
I guess when the state was founded and there was no money,society was happy enough for the church to provide education. Most schools are on private church land. to switch overnight to a state provided education system would cost money we dont have. We can forget how poor a country we have been in the past.
Also, the view of religion was clearly quite different when you see how God is built into our constitution. Time to move on from that, and the constitutional review group were looking at this at the weekend so we may see a referendum coming.
I think church and state should be hse aerated but it will take time. It hs happening at primary school level and beginning to happen at second level as educate together kids seek educate together secondary schools.
With regard to treatment of gay people, is possible we need to separate what people may choose to think privately with what is acceptable behaviour. It is easier to control how people act than how they think, but the former will influence the latter.
Legislation is the way to go. Legislate for gay marriage. Legislate against interpersonal violence, oops we already did… So enforce it. With heavy sanctions. Only way to go.
Some freedom of speech is required however or those who do not understand will not be able to learn.
People cling to the status who because of fear of the unknown. And that may indeed be a phobia. More likely misunderstanding and lack of understanding.
Is it any wonder that children in schools feel so confused about their own sexuality?
Kids in school need role models. I’m surprised the current Minister is not more interested in this, instead of some of the stupid stuff he comes out with. N votes in it I guess….. Though Joan burton seems to think the opposite.
When those who are gay have the courage to come out, gently and not via intimidating parades etc, when they don’t feel that they need a ‘gay community’ which is in itself ghettoising, then there may be progress. But don’t stymie debate.
If the only people talking about this issue are gay people then the debate will remain within the 10%’ or 20% or whatever it is.
Also, and I draw from my own experience, it seems that gay people, an I can understand why, are private and sometimes secretive about their lives. Please share and invite. I invite my gay cousin to all my family occasions etc but this is never reciprocated.
Of course the hetero community has to be more receptive. The fact is though, that outside these fora people are not really talking about this issue. I suspect there will be more coffee break discussions this morning about the proposal to make a home a constitutional right than there will be about the gay marriage issue.
“Also, and I draw from my own experience,”
Unfortunately, your ‘own experience’ seems to be mostly BS. Sorry.
My experience is my experience. Why is it bs? One gay cousin, two close friends who are gay. Given the number of people I actually know, presumably many more of them are gay and private about it. In fact my cousin came out gradually over a few years so sometimes I would get a “look” from her to tell me that for example a person I might be speaking to was not in the loop. She came out at work much late than with friends, and some of her work colleague were my friends so I had to keep up the pretense until she was ready. Oh just remember another gay friend, living abroad now. Oh and the sister of a good friend, adoptive mum of a little boy. Probably many more when I think about it.
Why is that experience bs please?
This Catholic ethos is a rather unpleasant notion if it promotes and sanctions discrimination against openly gay people.
Keith has a point, but I think he will find that most schools are catholic. However, not all exercise this discrimination. In my daughters school there is at least one openly gay teacher who had a civil partnership recently and all the students shared the congratulations, looked at the wedding photos etc etc as they would with any of the weddings of teachers.
One of he accounts above said that other members of the staff room would not be comfortable knowing she we gay. How does she know that?
The more people come out’, in normal circumstances, the better. Sometimes gay people want to be private and the rest of us don’t know whether to acknowledge or not, so we just ignore it.
By the way I bet if you were to monitor negative comments on journal articles there are probably way more negative articles about teachers. But it’s ok to generalise about teachers, for example. But nobody can say anything in this debate about gay marriage. If not on message, you are branded a homophobe and a troll.
There needs to be discussion whee people can voice their fears.
That won’t do very much for the campaign.
You have a point about the flak teachers get – but not all of us think that way.. Some of us are very grateful for all the work our teachers put in and would prefer if the few bad eggs could be removed for the benefit of the students and the profession as a whole.
@Katy Star.
I think that you misunderstand, most gay people are ‘quiet’ because they don’t want to draw attention to themselves, because of homophobic attitudes and stuff like this anti-equality ethos in Catholic schools. It has little to do with seeking privacy for most people, and more to do with not wanting to experience gossip, bullying etc etc…
also, I reckon most gay people would be pretty astute in assessing who would be comfortable with them being gay and who wouldn’t … You learn that pretty quick…
Your anecdotal story about the teacher who could be gay in his school is great, very positive, but I think the even if not all schools ‘exercise this discrimination’ that doesn’t take away from the fact that the power is there to implement it.. it’s always hovering in the background… This is simply unacceptable…
Yes Frank I agree.
I think thgh if anything is to change, a few , and as many as possible need to be brave.
From what I see, parades and rainbow flags don’t help influence the people I know who are homophobic, and I mean th tin the real sense, they have a fear. How do you conquer eg fear of flying? By gently encouraging, explaining, allowing slow adaptation.
For a start, maybe stop talking about the gay community. It is ghettoising. IMO. And while Pantis speech was powerful, I think the dress will have put off some people. I would like to hear the speech put out more on radio. Then people might listen ot the sentiment and not be distracted by what actually I find uncomfortable, a man with fake boobs. I would also feel uncomfortable if m sister wore a fake penis.
There is a lot of discussion in small places, eg on blogs following articles about gay items. People who don’t agree and comment here are told not to ad the articles.
But surely that is the point. I think most people skip these articles, either initially, or the first time they are accused of being a troll.
Empathy on both sides is what is needed.
Katy – the pride parade has a significance, something straight people don’t get because, well – we don’t have to hide our sexuality or worry that it being found out would have negative repercussions for us.
The pride parade is about being able to stand up proud and not hide it anymore.
The vast majority of people at these parades aren’t semi naked – and even if they are, have you seen a St Patricks Day parade? No one complains about the Brazilian chicks dressed in almost nothing do they? But the semi naked chaps on the floats seems to be all anyone who takes issue ever focus on..
People who are homophobic need to realise that their attitude isn’t really acceptable anymore. Same way it’s not acceptable to make racial slurs, or be sexist. Their attitudes NEED to change, they can kick and scream all they like, but they’re just behaving like those few racists or sexists who wouldn’t let go of their prejudices and are now shunned for being bigots.. They have a problem, and the pride parade confronts that – it says “we’re here, we’re queer – GET USED TO IT”. Because while you can’t change a persons sexuality, being obsessed enough with another persons sexuality enough to let it bother you is a choice.
@Katy,
I do understand what you are saying. However, I see no problem in rainbow flags and pride parades. It’s one day out of 365 where gay people can come out and celebrate their sexuality without fearing being gay-bashed on the streets. Gay pride in Dublin is one of the best in the world, and despite the LGBT theme, many straight people I know personally, come out on that day because it’s the best street party in Dublin.
You say that Pride won’t influence the people you know who are homophobic, well the way i see it is it is not the responsibility of gay people to make turn homophobes into non- homophobes, it’s not up to gay people to influence or try to change or convince them of our worth, it’s up to homophobes to deal with their own prejudice.
Personally, I believe it is a very very small number of people who would have a real fear of gay people, in the sense that some have a fear of flying or spiders etc. I don’t believe that there is a significant number of people who genuinely feel this way. And if there is, then they need to get help for that fear, maybe therapy or whatever, because it is irrational.
When people talk of the ‘gay community’, community is a generic term that is used in many contexts about different groups, such as ‘Catholic community’, ‘rural community’ etc, it really has no specific meaning. I don’t see a problem with it. The ghettoization of gay people/culture etc, that you refer to, does not come from this term, it comes from homophobia and oppression.
Whilst you might say the dress Panti was wearing put some people off, so what, I really don’t see the problem with drag. It has had well over half a million hits, so I believe that many were more interested in the message than the messenger, although nothing wrong with the messenger either.
The only reason he delivered the speech as Panti rather than Rory was because he was due on stage in Pantibar as Panti 10mins after the speech finished.
Now, tell me you can get from the Abbey to Capel St, get dressed up and do your makeup in that short space of time.. It’s not possible unless you have a time machine, so the speech was delivered in drag.
Besides which – drag has a very long standing tradition within the gay community, indeed many drag queens were accepted and embraced by the straight community while homosexuality was still taboo, I’m sure you have heard of Danny La Rue, Lily Savage and Dame Edna?
It was drag queens who led the charge at stonewall and did so much for furthering gay rights – so in a sense it was kind of fitting that the speech was delivered in drag, and those people who would discount the message because of how the person is dressed are quite obviously ignorant numpties who just need to learn something for once in their lives..
Not you personally Katy – but anyone who discounts the message because of the way the messenger looks is in need of some education, or failing that a good slap for being so blooming stupid.
Thank you Frank, so well expressed. My mother still uses the word tolerance and can’t see what’s wrong with it!
I live and work and pay tax in Ireland. I’m tolerated for being gay. Put up with. People are making and effort to accept me just for going about my day. Like we tolerate litter on the street. Tolerate junk mail. I look forward to the day we don’t even have articles like this. When publishing stories like this would be a slow news day or a no news day.
Helen,
That indeed would be a great day. You shouldn’t be just “tolerated” you should be accepted.
Uplifting to see so many contributions from people who see the wrong in prejudice and discrimination – in whatever form – race, religion, orientation, gender etc.- and who see that these individuals are the victims of both.
Utterly depressing to see the failure of some, especially Keith Mills and Tom Doyle, who are in denial about their prejudice.
I don’t even like wasting my energy on someone who writes the ludicrous suggestion that gay victims should suffer “the minor inconvenience of moving house” No, you know, it is better to treat it with the contempt it deserves.
Keith Mills and Tony Doyle may well be in denial about themselves, too.
Never knew the was a gay subject. Can you take it as a leaving cert subject
Bad troll is trolling badly
Oh come on Jezza, that was competent trolling at the very least. Even I was slightly offended!
Let’s not forget, this is just a story. It’s not a statement of facts that has been upheld in a court of law. The journal offered the opportunity for people to email in their stories. This could be fiction and most likely is.
Ever hear of section 37 of the employment equality act?
The only fiction here is your ramblings.
‘Most likely’ fiction? Utterly baseless speculation on your part.
Whatever Tom, if that’s what you want to believe.
Who’s to say it’s fact? A bunch of people giving green thumbs?
Tom, stop being a sad little troll. You need to get a better hobby. It’s frankly unhealthy
Tom could give sitting on his thumb a go
I specifically decided not to be a teacher because of this. Hating children was the second reason :)
Amazing how little response in official teaching circles to this article- indicative of how these teachers suffer
I’ve been following the panti saga closely the last few weeks. I’m irish, living abroad. Nothing has disgusted me as much as reading how these teachers are treated in Ireland. It is absolutely absurd that the Catholic Church has this stranglehold on the country’s education system. The only solace we have is that with each passing year they lose more and more power in the country.
Whom you choose sleep with should bear no relevance to one ability to do a job… as long as that person is not underage…… bloody church and their rules while they allowed children.to be repeatedly raped and murdered…
You should never be ashamed of who you are! Shame on these schools for making these teachers feel this way, after all the way I see it is each to their own. And it’s not like there pushing there beliefs on the children.
Keep your eye on your pupils✌
I think this is a great article because it shows how much discrimination still goes on in schools where a teacher happens to be gay. Panti’s amazing address at the Abbey is opening up the flood gates and awful as it is for the teachers concerned to face the dreadful treatment that is meeted out on them, they are each and every one helping to shine a light on the darkness. It is now up (in my view) to parents of children going to (usually Catholic schools) to make their voice heard that what is important for their child is a caring, respectful education which can only occur where the educators are treated first and foremost as human beings educating our future generation and that diversity in sexual orientation of teachers is not something to be tolerated but welcomed, cherished and respected.
Any chance we could have a debate about what it is like being a separated or divorced person in Ireland today especially rural Ireland
Submit a column to the journal. If you’re using the app go into “more” and the option is there. I am sure they will happily take a contribution.
Catholic schools and religious-based schools need to be done away with. Its 2014. All laws should be put in place no matter what ‘type’ of school or organisation it is.
I was planning on going to College next year to pursue teaching but it’s sad to say that I am considering changing what my career will be over this. Why should I add more difficulty to my life? Even though teaching is something I really want to do, I find myself thinking, will it be worth it? It’s just the sad reality of Ireland in 2014.
Terrible, but sadly not unbelievable that this kind of bigotry is acceptable in ‘modern’ Irish schools
Meanwhile people continue to indoctrinate their kids and send them to school for what should be an unbiased , fulfilling education. But there is a bias, where they waste valuable school time preparing for th sacraments.
The ethos on the front page of most primary school websites is why I haven’t signed my son up for them, religion should be taken out of education and left to the parents. One local school only has words like Catholic fate, Christian values, getting ready for sacraments etc , nothing about subject line up, structure, extra languages, sports . Looks like he’s going to educate together. The Government should inforce equal rights in all area’s of society.
:-)
Consistently ramming this gay agenda down our throats isn’t going to make us care anymore or less. I’ll bite no in any referendum as I hate the way this group are bullying and hijacking everything. We couldn’t care less how they live but they have some sense that we should be compelled to care
Im tired of agents of a foreign state controlling 90% of our schools. The RCC has become corrupted by temporal power.
If you don’t care about other people being treated less than you, fine. Don’t “bite no” in a referendum for something so trivial as “I’m bored”. I’m pretty sure you won’t bother to “bite no” if it happened to be raining come referendum day. Or do you “not care” enough to go all the way to the polling booth and express your disinterest in this subject by expressing a pretty strong opinion against equality? Out of what? Spite? “Gay agenda fatique” is the new “It’s not natural”.
oh grow up ‘ironman’ ffs.
Not only are the stories of the teachers in this article disturbing. The head line is. Think it should read :In their own words. Teachers that happen to be gay.
You can’t teach been gay.
Sexuality is intrinsic to the person and can not be changed. Only suppressed much to the detriment of the mental health of the person.
I am saddened to read the above stories. Teachers guide our children daily, with great care and dedication for the most part.For me if a teacher is gay/straight/ black/ whatever once they are doing a good job there sexuality should be inconsequential. It’s very sad that as a gay person, some teachers can’t talk openly about their lives with colleagues for fear of negative outcomes. My son is 11 and I teach him,love is love in all it’s forms. Teach acceptance, I may not be able to change the minds of many but if I teach my boy equality and fairness then hopefully this will have a ripple effect. For those who have shown prejudice to gay teachers within the school system I’d be far more concerned about what negative values you could portray to children.
I am so sorry that we, as a society, have let you down and vow that if it happens on my doorstep, I will personally cause a problem for whomever chooses to use this terrible law to their warped advantage.
Why don’t Labour actually live up to their election promises and bring in laws that ban discrimination.
I’m starting to really believe Labour just said that to get in!
Equality Act 2004: This legislation makes significant amendments to the Employment Equality Act 1998 which prohibits discrimination in a range of employment-related areas. The prohibited grounds of discrimination are gender, marital status, family status, age, race, religious belief, disability, sexual orientation and membership of the Traveller community. The Act also prohibits sexual and other harassment.
The basic human right to be not discriminated against
Article 23. Declaration of human rights
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
As a basic human right to access public services ‘to which RC schools are’ one should not be prioritised by religious orientation to be accepted into RC schools when their only option is this.
A gay teacher has the right to work without diacrimation based on basic human rights above. Who is taking legal actions against government to get this righted? A lobbied legal action against the state needs to happen to get those loopholes abolished. It goes against human right. It goes against a lot more human rights than what’s stated above!
Although not a majority case, talks by heads of schools funded by state to a gay person to stay quiet about gay relationships and gay life although indifferent must be dealt with.
People worry about the need to keep taxes down vs the desire to care, and the whole spectrum in between is where most people are. And in the discussions on that issue, people will hide their true feelings too. Equally about distressed mortgages, travellers, immigration etc.
I know people who support the gay agenda because its cool to do so, and I know people who keep quiet about being anti because they are afraid of being branded homophobic. So there is no chance to influence them.
Have the debate. Accept that some people are phobic, some are fearful, some don’t understand, some are just narrow minded, they all need to engage in the conversation to be persuaded.
Shouting rarely works, neither does muttering in quiet corners. Something in between.
Oh, and some of the token gays on RTE do the cause no favours…. You will know whoi mean.
Just more gay propaganda. Republished because the journal can’t find a new gay propaganda article today.
Just more attention seeking Tom.
Why more gay articles?? Everyone is cool with gay teachers, gay dentists gay business owners etc. people’s sexuality doesn’t come to mind at all when thinking about profession. Why can’t the journal seem to go 1 week without writing a gay article? Could you do an article on the strains of being a heterosexual zoo keeper??
The whole point of the article is that everyone is NOT ok with it. People are fired because of their sexuality. Hence the article. It’s not that difficult….
This article was published in February. Presumably it has been reissued because work is underway to remove the churches exemption from the equality act 2004. Which was the legislation responsible for the discrimination described above being permitted.
It is in keeping with current events – which is common in news media. I’m sure you have noticed..
And how often are straight relationships mentioned Niall ?
Get real man — you are anti-gay.
Grow up….
While I’ve heard stories like these from gay teachers before and think that they are horrendous, just on a positive note – I worked in a school in Dublin for years and while I wasn’t exactly out to the kids – and nor were the two or three other gay/lesbian teachers – it was generally known and entirely accepted by the students. Never once had a bad word said to me by a parent, teacher and student. Supportive is the wrong word. Genuinely, nobody have a damn. Now the management – that was a different story. The principal was a horrendous bully – as a lot of principals in this country are – and had some serious problems with gay people. The board of management – oddly especially the parent reps – we’re often openly hostile. The beginning of the end came for me a few years back when I asked if I could make a presentation to all the students and staff at an assembly during Belong To’s anti-gay bullying campaign in schools.
I wasn’t planning on saying “here kids, I’m gay.” The idea would be to stand up in front of all with the support of other teachers and say say “homophobic bullying is not acceptable.” I KNOW the kids and the teachers would have been supportive – even most of the parents I’d imagine – but I was told in no uncertain terms by the principal that discussions of homosexuality were entirely inappropriate for school. He board of management heard about it and took to making my life very unpleasant until I had no choice but to leave. Anyway, this post is supposed to be positive and really what I want to say is that, yes being gay in schools is hard for teachers and the current situation is horrendous BUT n general kids just don’t care if someone is gay. There is hope for the future, especially with a change to the law on the way..
Good to know Billy that students and most parents have no problem with anybody’s sexuality – I am not surprised at all! Hopefully with the law changing principals and BOMs will have to keep their prejudices to themselves in the future! However, we also need to have more diversity in our education system – for teachers who want to teach but do not wish to be involved in the ‘formation of the faith’ in children, and for students and parents who do not want that either, including parents of faith who do not wish their children to have a segregated education or who wish their children to make up their own minds when they are old enough to do so.
Final note, don’t see any of the commentators here on the article about parenting above. Have a look and you will get a feeling for why this issue is not dominating any agenda.
Parents are mostly jealous of anyone with a sex life!
And this attitude is being handed down from men in frocks? The mind boggles.
Being gay is a lifestyle decision and should not be incouraged in public places
Wrong
You seem to have made a few errors in your comment, allow me to fix them for you:
Being homophobic is a lifestyle choice and should not be encouraged.
Spell check, ignoramus?
Of course you don’t believe that ciaran. Don’t be silly.
Shows again that demonatinal (right word? lol) Catholic schools should be abolished altogether.
You are FORCED to obey and squeeze in the beliefs and policies and you are NOT given a choice at all. That kills Individuality in the very core. It is absolutely disgraceful that your orientation is a matter of discussion AT ALL…..
And not even that it is an issue in the first place that discussion could go so much further, gay = sex… WHAT?????
Love is love no gender needed and I really feel for the victims. Man its 2014….wow!
Nope. Denominational schools always have a means to opt out. I have never heard of participation being forced.
OK so Yako, you are I suspect talking about RE classes, classes to prepare for the sacraments, and assemblies??? Notwithstanding the exclusion of children who are not of that religion from all of these classes and ceremonies, what about the whole ethos of the school that also informs every other aspect of the running of the school? Do you seriously think the ethos is restricted to RE classes, prep. for sacraments, assemblies and whatever masses they have? The Irish Catholic Church junior curriculum expressly says that the religion should be brought into EVERY subject, and gives examples of how to do it. How is that a comfortable environment for a child who is not of that religion?
We are talking about state schools here, right, funded with our money, that are supposed to cater for all?
If you think a religious ethos is so light, how would you feel about all schools having a Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist ethos? How about if your child could opt out of religious classes, preparations for sacraments and services and assemblies? Would you mind the symbols everywhere, the references to the religion and god or gods in every other subject, the shrines? The school being under the control of the local religious leaders?
The fact is that, with two thirds of parents wanting NON-religious schools, why should nearly all children be subjected to a state education that is so against their own selves and their beliefs?
And if your child opts out of Relationships and Sexuality Education since it is defined purely in a Catholic context in Catholic schools, how do they then get that education?
Here’s what it says: “The Catholic school, in the formulation of its policy, should reflect Catholic moral teaching on sexual matters. Even more fundamentally, it needs to be specific in excluding approaches which are inconsistent with the very foundations and formulations of Catholic moral thought.
http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/RSE-Guidelines-RofI-for-web.pdf
I’d love to go for a few drinks with shanti, Tom Doyle, ailbhe and Bankers on the other forum. I think our similarities are greater than our differences.
And I would LOVE A chat with a gay person to help me unravel all our family dynamics so that we can all get to a good place together.
And I would love my gay cousin, who I love dearly, to invite me and my husband to her parties. As we invite her and her partner to ours. I genuinely feel that I am the rejected one. Perhaps because I helped her mother get over the shock, and constantly batted for my cousin to her mother, while her mother pretended it was all ok grieved and took her anger out on the rest of us.
I probably did more than anyone for my cousins sexuality to be accepted by her parents. But she will never know that because I can never tell her.
Yes, it happens.
Lol Katy, Tom Doyle is not a real person. It is on its fourth anonymous twitter account!
I am sure most of the real commenters would be happy to meet for a pint!
In terms of your family, why dont you call your cousin and say that you would like to know more about her partner and go for a drink with them, just you three. Maybe they are not comfortable with larger family gatherings. I know I certainly wasnt with my inlaws and the same with my partner. We always felt like we were on display. It takes a while to adjust and not be paranoid. So if you express you want to be their ally in the family maybe it will help.
Oh they are comfortable and come to all family gatherings and we meet as a threesome etc. But the would never be a question of me being invited to her gatherings, or out with her friends. So I feel that I am kept out of her life.
Maybe she thinks I am not interested, but it’s difficult to bring this up.
Agreed, Tom Doyle is a sad little attention seeker who has had his twitter account revoked muliple times. I’d rather not share a drink with an eejit like that who is just out to cause offense.
Overblown issue and infact with the increasing number of non traditional types of schools available this is becoming less and less of an issue.
Doesn’t change the fact that there is legally supported discrimination. This needs to go
Ailbhe, it will go, now that the law is about to be changed.
I’m well aware of that Ciarán, thanks.
Other posters seem to think it’s a non-issue, so why do anything.
96% of state schools still run by religious patrons Yako, and changing far too slowly.
I’ve known gay teachers to teach, without obstruction, in some staunchly Catholic run schools. They had no problems with any interference from anyone.
For balance ? !
Don’t you see that almost everything is society is geared up to straight people ?
You are pretty self-centred.
It saddens me deeply to have read these personal accounts from people battling with homophobia. For me, one of the basic, and potentially, one of the most important of all human rights, is the right to be born free and equal. In my opinion, However, from reading this article, it is obvious that this is not the case. What I cannot fathom is the mindset of these malicious people who bully people based on their sexual orientation . What sense of hierarchy do they believe they possess over people with another sexual orientation. We each have the sheer right to have our own individual sexual preference and absolutely no one can tell us otherwise. What especially worried me was the fact that a lot of these people live in Ireland, meaning that this issue of homophobia is still taking place, and this is utterly worrying.
In my opinion, these brutal acts of homophobia should not be tolerated, we need to continue fighting for what is right and we can do this by doing what we’re doing now, by protesting, marching and sharing articles such as this one, so that our voices may be heard. We must be proud to embrace our loved ones, despite their sexual preference. And if little kids can be so accepting of gay couples, then why can’t everyone be?
The post i lifted from @Bock the robber’ was from a teacher named mairead. My understanding is when British began free National schools C1830′s they were non denominational- newly liberated catholic church said in catholic areas they should be catholic. Reason- they claimed if schools were not avowedly catholic a protestant missionary influence could creep in- the spirit of the times DID have a lot of missions- it seems about 150 UK based protestant missions landed in Ireland during famine yrs to make converts. OK – but if Irish Catholics really loved their faith hearing more of a protestant influence in school shouldn’t change that should it? Do non catholic pupils in Irish catholic schools suddenly change their faith after what they hear in school? i suspect getting control of schools was all about church gaining power.British acceded to this – as another authoritarian organisation having control of schools would help produce an obedient population. I believe at that time the British Paid for the original schools. What maired says is that even after independence, if a new catholic school was mooted the bishop sent the bill for land to the state. Or she said a farmer donated land. It seems money to buy land for schools came from British government, then the Irish state.
I think many people feel that the whole catholic Irish school system has been paid for Overwhelmingly by state money- then HOW can it be allowed to openly break the law ? Because anti discrimination laws apply to every other body in the country.If I set up my own private school of horticulture- and then sacked any teacher who was gay, where would I be legally? And if my school got 80-90% of state funding ( with parents filling in for a lot of the other 10%) wouldn’t myself as an errant employer And the state look even worse. Also- not many gay teachers may have been Openly dismissed-but Constructive Dismissal- making someone’s life so miserable it is better to be unemployed- seems too happen too often.I also don’t see how church and catholic writers like David Quinn talk about ‘our’ catholic schools- when vast majority of funding is from state and parents.
I had a teacher in primary school who would walk around the room and rub the ears of the boys in the class.
I’d swat him away, but some of the other boys would let him do it.
I think he was a paedo who was grooming the lads, and trying to figure out who the vulnerable ones were.
A homosexual teacher would have been preferable to that creepy fúcker.
I has one of those too. Give me initials. Bet it was the same school.
Not seeking attention from you Ailbhe. Yet you keep giving it. Obsessed much?
Nope! How’s Tomás?
This is from website’ Bock the robber’ re primary schools
bocktherobber.com/2010/08/catholic-bishops-and-irish-primary-schools/
Aug 7th 2010 – quite an informative post
Quite a bit of inaccurate information was posted in response to Bock’s original post on this subject. One commenter in particular – Joyce – posted a series of inaccurate statements and this is my response.
The “Rules” I quote are taken from “The Rules for
NationalSchools” – which are (exactly as it says on the tin) the rules for national schools!
Non-Catholics during Religion class.
Parents who think it’s ok for their non-Catholic children to attend a Catholic school, because they won’t be doing religion there, should think again. Despite the fact that provision must be made for such pupils, this does not happen in reality.
Rule 69. (2) (a) states: “No pupil shall receive, or be present at any religious instruction of which his parents or guardian disapprove”.
Rule 69. (2) (b) states: “The periods of formal religious instruction shall be fixed so as to facilitate the withdrawal of pupils to whom paragraph (a) of this section applies”.
Despite these Rules, what actually happens is that the non-Catholic has to sit in the class, during religion class. They are always present, listening, absorbing. Also, Bishops in certain Dioceses insist that teachers must teach religion at 12 noon – slap bang in the middle of the day – not at all what was meant in Rule 69 (2) (b). Priests often call in to the school at noon, to check that teachers are teaching religion – not all schools, but a great many, especially if the school is within easy access of the church / Parochial House. This is a quiet, roundabout but very effective way of ensuring that all children receive Catholic, religious instruction, whether their parents realise it or not, or whether they consent or not!
Bishops don’t run Schools
Bishops most certainly do run and control the vast majority of Irish National Schools, but they do it in a very clever way.
Bishops don’t run schools on a daily basis (no, they get their priests to do that, and report back to them).
Bishops don’t build schools (but they do own them – check the deeds and you’ll see the Bishop’s name). The State builds schools in Ireland (when they bother!). Sometimes there is a “local contribution” required. Long ago, the Patron (Bishop) had to pay a percentage towards the cost. They got around that by getting the local people to pay instead (this is when priests were asking for money for schools from the pulpit).
The older schools were built by the British, or with grants from the British.
Joyce asks (copied and pasted exactly from her post) – “If some Cathoic religious group has provided the school;buildings and grounds and a good environment for the school which has increased my choice between a religious school and a state school, then i am all for it. What I don’t understand is why so many state schools cant achieve the same high standards as some of the religious ( and they can be catholic or protestant ) schools. Maybe you can answer that for me?”
Certainly, Joyce. First of all, they have not provided the school, building, grounds or environment. When a school is built, a local farmer either donates it or sells it. The State pays. The Bishop grabs it and puts his name on the deeds. The State cannot “achieve the same high standards of the religious” because erm… these are actually State schools, Joyce, but the Bishops hold the power. The “religious schools” are the State schools in Ireland, Joyce. Crazy, isn’t it!
Joyce finds it amazing that the Catholic church own 98% of all national schools. She thinks, I think, that this means that they were built and funded by the Catholic church, but there were not. The British government set up our current national school system in 1831 (yes, it is the exact same system to this day). It was set up as a non-denominational system and religion had to be taught on Saturday or Sunday. (These rules are still law, but disregarded, as Bock told you). Someone from the locality had to apply for grant aid to set up a national school, and that was normally the local PP in the 1800s, because few other people could read or write. The British owned the schools though, not the church. All went quite well, until the Irish themselves took over and gave the Catholic church complete and free rein. Next time, you go for a spin, take a look at the dates on the national schools – a scary number of our schools still in operation today (because new ones are awaited!!! ha! ha!) were built by the British.
Bishops don’t pay the school bills (they send their own bill through CPSMA, and let the State pay all the bills). The Bishops even check the “books” when they come around on their “Parish visitations” and for Confirmations. The Bishops don’t pay the school insurance bill, but they nominate two insurance companies that schools must choose from!! Schools can only choose from these two – all Catholic schools!!!
Bishops don’t pay the teachers, but they do control them. No teacher can get a job in a Catholic primary school unless the Bishop of that Diocese personally sanctions that appointment. At every teacher interview, the Bishop has one nominee (usually the priest) plus someone chosen from the Diocesan list (compiled by the Bishop!), plus the principal of the school (whose job was sanctioned by the Bishop!). Any teacher in a Catholic school who is openly not a good Catholic, or openly gay – can be legally sacked for those reasons alone, and has no legal recourse. It has not happened yet, but the Bishop has that power. All in all, the Bishop has enormous power over teachers (and this power is devolved to the local priest, who is generally the Chairperson of the local school Board of Management).
Bishops don’t educate teachers. True, they don’t pay the costs, but they control the course! They insist that every teacher must have a qualification to teach Religion, so this is part of every teacher education programme in Ireland. No teacher will be employed in a Catholic school without that qualification! Teachers have to pretend to be good Catholics to get a reference from their local PP and to get a job!
Bishops don’t set the curriculum (except the religion curriculum). They also set the religion book list, print and sell the books (Veritas). That is a very nice earner every year. The Bishops don’t care too much about the rest of the Curriculum, they are concerned about one subject only.
Bishops don’t provide the Inspectors (except for religion). Bishops send out religion inspectors (Diocesan Advisors) to every Catholic school in Ireland, every, single year. They check to see if teachers are teaching religion. They check to see if children are using their Veritas workbooks. They write a report for the Bishop, which teachers never get to see. The State inspectors must give a copy of their report to the school. The Bishops’ inspectors do not. The Bishop also charges the school a fee, part of which supports the religion inspectors.
Other things thrown out there –
The “dumbing down” of standards:
I have been teaching for decades, and I do not agree that there is a dumbing down of standards at primary level. Look, we can’t have it every way! The rote learning, hours of homework and beatings of long ago produced reams of memorised texts and facts. The more child-friendly and child-centred education system that we now have in the Primary School is more conducive to personal learning and creative thinking. Do parents really want us to go back to the older methods? Learning absolutely still does take place to a high level, but it may not be as obvious as rolling out facts and figures. The onus is now on understanding, not rote.
The notion of inflated grades in Ireland emanated from Google and Microsoft – two American countries – the land of grade inflation? Irish grades are not inflated in Universities. I suspect that lower courses (lower than degree level) may suffer from grade inflation, but not in our top Universities. More students do achieve excellent grades now than heretofore, yes, but more students also fail and drop out of their courses.
The Tax Payer pays the teacher’s pension:
This is a lie, plain and simple. The INTO did some research on this in 2009, and teachers pensions are 100% self-financed i.e. the pension contributions that teachers make cover the pension of retired teachers 100%. Teachers pay 6.5% into their pensions plus a pension levy that has nothing to do with their pensions. It is a tax. It does not go towards their pension. Teachers have no choice, but to pay into this pension scheme. What happens to it? Does the Government invest it wisely in a pension fund? No! They use it for day-to-day expenditure! When teachers retire, after 40 years of paying into this scheme, there may not be any money there for them, so let’s cut the crap and look at reality right in the eye! Teachers pay their own pensions – for 40 years – and it mightn’t even be there in the end! Others, however, who never paid in to a pension scheme can claim a state non-contributory pension – a day-to-day expenditure funded by guess who?
The teaching unions have more power to influence primary schools than Bishops do:
I had to actually laugh at this one! The Unions have no control over schools. Yes, they can negotiate. Yes, they can call teachers out on strike – or can they? If that was the case, teachers could be on strike every day, there are so many issues! Also, teachers are a conservative lot, and they do not take kindly to strike action. There have been three strikes since the INTO was founded in the 1800s – 1946, early 1980s and 2010.
Joyce tells us as a fact that “The teaching unions have ultimate control of what catholic Bishops can and cannot do – anybody who does not understand that is incredibly naive”. Guess who is naive, Joyce? The unions bow and scrape to the Bishops, I’m afraid! The teacher unions are largely made up of serving teachers (the officers at branch and district, plus the Executive). If you are a serving teacher, you have to watch your job! The Bishop is your boss, and you do not cross him. If the teacher unions were free entities, they would not stand for one tenth of what they let pass (as Bock rightly said in relation to Eileen Flynn).
Dail Eireann controls our schools:
That should be true, but for all of the above reasons, it is not. Many of our TDs still seem to be afraid of the Bishops’ power also.
Our political representatives do have the legislative powers to change the law to reflect whatever changes they think the electorate want, yes.
Does the electorate want to get the Bishops out of our schools though?
I think they would, but they think, like Joyce, that the Bishops have no power anymore in 2010.
Totally, totally wrong.
(Catholic control of e
For balance, please a piece on being straight in Ireland.
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