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THE EUROPEAN COURT OF Justice has ruled that Ireland’s two-tier pay system for teachers is not an act of age discrimination.
Two INTO backed teachers Tomás Horgan and Claire Keegan, made a claim to the ECJ based on a question that was referred on from the Irish Labour Court.
It’s based on cost saving measures that were made by making cuts to teachers’ pay, among other public servants. For example, teachers appointed before 2011 were paid €34,484, and those appointed after 1 January 2011 start on a salary of €36,318. A difference of €1,000 – €3,000 continues throughout the teachers’ pay scale.
You can view the figures from the INTO here.
In its ruling today, the ECJ said:
“…The only relevant criterion for the purposes of applying the new rules on the salary scale and classification on that scale is whether the person concerned is a ‘new entrant to the public service as of 1 January 2011’, regardless of the age of the public servant at the date at which he or she was recruited.”
Accordingly, that criterion, which renders the application of the new rules dependant exclusively on the date of recruitment as an objective and neutral factor, is manifestly unconnected to any taking into account of the age of the persons recruited
However, the judgement did acknowledge that “at the time of their recruitment, Mr Horgan, Ms Keegan and the majority of the other teachers recruited after 1 January 2011 were younger than the teachers recruited before that date, inasmuch as at that date approximately 70% of them were 25 years of age or under…”
But it added:
“…it is also common ground that irrespective of the year of recruitment, both the teachers recruited after 1 January 2011 and those recruited before that date were on average 25 years of age or under.
The INTO said that it the ruling was “a bitter disappointment”.
The case returns to the Labour Court where the claimants, supported by INTO, will reply in detail to the ECJ responses and will ask the Labour Court “to find that what looks on its face like age-linked discrimination is exactly that”.
INTO President Joe Killen, in attendance as the verdict was delivered in Luxembourg, said: “This case is just one strand, albeit an important one, of our consistent opposition to the cuts imposed on new entrants.”
To impose a salary cut on these entrants means in reality that younger teachers were paid less at start of career than older teachers had been, a disadvantage which persists across the career resulting in a substantial differential in career earnings.
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Brilliant common sense out of a court I did not think I would live to see it.
@john s: Great result. Any employer is entitled to pay more or less for whatever reasons they choose, provided it’s not on the basis of a protected ground. You join before a certain date, you get certain benefits; you join after, you don’t. How else could change possibly be introduced? Were those pre-existing teachers willing to forgo some of their pay so that new entrants’ pay would not be so low? Were they balls.
@Dr Richard DeWitt: What about equal pay for equal work is that not something the EFU should be promoting
@Dr Richard DeWitt: why would other workers give up wages so everyone can get paid the same. Are you advocating for communism in some sectors or were you just talking trying to be smart? Idiotic comment.
@George O Neill: that arguement is a nice phrase but is a load of nonsense, people with 10 yrs experince in any field are going to earn more that someone with 5 years experience..
@Gowon Geter: Yes but the starting salaries should remain the same for everyone
@George O Neill: It doesn’t happen in the private sector, so why should it happen in the public sector?
@George O Neill: You can’t have equal pay for equal work, it doesn’t work. If I’m a project manager with a company for 10 years, with another 10 years of experience, should another project manager straight out of college get the same pay? We both could be doing a similar or same job – project management.
@Jim Buckley Barrett: This is the wonderful world if the PS, they don’t care because its just taxpayers money and it belongs to them, who cares if you all have to suffer because of it through crap services and extra tax…..they don’t give a rats once the money, pensions and perks keep rolling in.
@Jim Buckley Barrett: You’re an idi0t…do some research. What it means is the post 2011 entrant will be earning less AFTER let’s say 10 years as the pre 2011 entrant with the SAME level of experience.
In other words both receive different amounts of money for doing the SAME job with the SAME experience, albeit at different times.
@George O Neill: Why should they be, if some starts in a job with 10 yrs experience they will be on more money than someone with no experience.
@Ozmond: You and your Unions are the idiots, the long timers threw the newbies to the wolves, you reap what you sow.
A Simple fix would be to reduce the pay of the pre 2011 people to that of the post 2011 people and all is equal then
@Gowon Geter:
“long timers threw the newbies to the wolves…”
Who’s to say that, if the public-sector representative organisations had not accepted the Croke Park deal a decade ago, the government wouldn’t have reduced the starting salary for new public-sector recruits anyway?
@Gowon Geter: I am actually the most ununioned person you could meet. I was merely making a point to somebody who hadn’t a clue what he was talking about.
@Gowon Geter: the issue is that younger teachers are on a lesser scaled salary package. A post 2011 teacher on scale 1 earned a lot less than a pre 2011 on their scale 1, if that makes sense? Nobody denying experienced teachers should earn more, but let’s all have the same scale?!?
@Jonathan Regan: ok reduce everyone to the lower scale all fixed
It’s still pay discrimination no matter what way you phrase it.
@Shane Mullally: Existing teachers should have shared the downturn burden with the new entrants. Instead they pulled up the ladder and shafted them.
Solidarity eh?
@Shane Mullally:
I agree Shane, ask pre- 2011 people around the staff room why they voted it in?
@Shane Mullally: so then most near all employees are discriminate d against . Very few if any are getting the terms and benefits given to employees pre 2008.
@Chemical Brothers: What are you on about! Not a clue clearly…just generalised sweeping statements! Maybe look again at the Salary Scales pre 11 and post.
@Patrick Nolan: they didn’t vote it in. That’s just a lie.
@Seán C: but they did
@Seán C:
Must have been the first public sector pay agreement that didn’t go to a vote then……
@Patrick Nolan: Nobody voted it in except the Dail as part of FEMPI. Get your facts right.
@Shane Mullally:
Case needed to find a common opportunity for both sets. Where one set is awarded less from the same opportunity. Not simply pay scale comparisons.
I get it that everyone resents teachers because of the holidays but that doesn’t give anyone license to condone basic inequality in the workplace, regardless of the profession
@Marcus Eugene: what about every other worker in the country.
@Marcus Eugene: How is it inequality? You don’t pay people the same regardless of whether they have the same experience and ability. Also, none of the “victims” were forced to sign their contracts, now were they?
@bmul: that’s up to each worker or profession to fight their own cause. If a any profession feels their being unfairly treated they have every right to complain. Just cus they don’t doesn’t mean teachers shouldn’t either
@Marcus Eugene: If you feel your are not being paid enough, get another job!
@Marcus Eugene: and the public have every right to support the workers from specific sectors (nurses) or not (teachers) as they see fit.
@Marcus Eugene: People with 10 yrs experience in any field are going to earn more that those with 5 years and those with zero years experience.
@Marcus Eugene: new teachers took jobs on lower pay since 2011 with their eyes open. If they are not happy then they should change career.
@Marcus Eugene: I would like to see how much teachers are paid per hr worked and then compare that to how much Nurses are paid per hour worked.
How many teachers work for cash when they on their holidays ?
@CrabaRev: and if the teachers feel they are not being paid enough why don’t they do the same?
@CrabaRev: what other job should with his bachelors of EDUCATION?
Our approach to education is a joke. Teachers should be paid a lot more and quite a few should be let go.
How many high flyers in college decide to be a teacher? We are happy as a society to pay shed loads to lawyers who spoof and overbill, pharmacists who seem to take 25 mins to dispense some pills a vending machine and smart card could replace, but not the educators of our young?
In some cases (not all) the younger teachers are the best. The unions never wanted to bring in performance related pay and no government cares enough about education to see it through.
We should pay better and expect better from teachers
@thephantomshit: I agree with you, except for the fact that no government cares enough to change the system. Teachers Unions are strong, militant is the word that comes to mind. They will happily hold the country to ransom rather than concede an inch. So it becomes a case of how much we, and and our children, are willing to suffer. It’s wrong.
@thephantomshit: Teachers are failed workers who couldn’t hack it in the real world and reverted to a molly-coddled world of secure employment. Over paid and under worked.
@Simon Peters: sounds like you had a great time in school and would also make a great mentor to children. In fact I’d say you are probably a barrel of laughs, incredibly successful both financially and socially and are extremely open minded
@EvieXVI: I agree – the teachers unions (and probably lots of others too) don’t work for the motivated workers. I think reasonable people would be happy to pay teachers more IF they felt it was attached to a huge uptick in quality. And there are some very good quality teachers but we need more of them.
The fact large numbers will pay for private education does show it is something people care about.
A fantastic job with buckets of time off
@wiggy: why aren’t you a teacher then?
@wiggy: Try it, Go on..Is a shortage so no doubt you seem the exact Skills set, in every way, to do it…
@Marcus Eugene: Whether he is or not, He is right. 7 hours per day, 4 months holidays per year. Never work weekends. Almost impossible to be dismissed. A pension that can be drawn at 60, and if you were in the private sector would require a pension pot of a couple of million to equal. And don’t even attempt the its “sooooh stressful!” argument because compared to comparatively paid people in the private sector, its not.
@wiggy: Where do you teach?
@CrabaRev: you pay into pension in public sector from the minute you start. Private sector generally don’t start worrying about pension until their thirties and maybe even later. At this point, people start to crib about public sector pension.
@CrabaRev: Never work weekends??? I know teachers who spend Sunday evening preparing Monday’s classes.
@CrabaRev: And they only get their full pension after 40 years of full time employment. Which for most teachers is……….never.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: Altogetyher now Aaaaahhhh , I have to prepare for the the next day every day. ffs get off the cross or change career if its so bad.
@Seán C:
Incorrect. Public sector workers do not pay anything into pensions. There is nothing to pay into. Public service pensions are payed out of current revenue, not any pension pot. Your lump sum and your pension is based on your final years salary.
Private pensions are paid out based on contributions made to a pension fund, On retirement a pension is then purchased based on the total of that pension fund which include contributions and interest if any. There is a maximum legal amount of €2.3 million euro that is allowed. To get an equivalent pension as a retired teacher you would need a pension pot of about €1 million euro
You obviously work in the public sector.
@sean o’dhubhghaill:
- I know teachers who don’t
- That’s a different issue. Most people in the private sector don’t have full time work for 40 years
@Gowon Geter: Calm Down! All I am doing is showing CrabaRev his errors! Lots of people as well as teachers have to work at weekends to prepare for the rest of the week, but CrabaRev doesn’t seem to realise that!
@CrabaRev: Incorrect. Lump Sum and Pension now based on total income over career, NOT just the final year.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: Yes Sean you are correct, that is now the case. It doesn’t negate my point though.
@sean o’dhubhghaill:
“All I am doing is showing CrabaRev his errors!” LOL
You are definitely a teacher alright!
@CrabaRev: every teacher pays into their pension the day they set foot inside the classroom. If you want to set up your own pension on top of that you can. Stop talking whallop.
@Bruce van der Gutschmitzer:
You are absolutely incorrect.
Public services pensions are payed from current revenue. There is nothing to pay into. Public service workers do not pay into a pension.
@CrabaRev: you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Public servants pay pension contributions. What the government does with the contributions is another matter entirely. Superannuation , Spouses and Children plus the Fempi tax originally called Pension Levy now made permanent as ASC. Plus as well as those three pension contributions they also pay PRSI and private sector workers get State Contributory Pension for this payment. Considering most public service pensions are very modest and they don’t get state pension I think you can see that your statement that public servants pay nothing is erroneous.
@CrabaRev: again if it’s soooo cushy then why is there a recruitment shortage. Yes the holidays are great but a lot of teachers do not have a permanent contract and struggle to get anything near the job security found elsewhere. They also don’t get paid for the great holidays. The salary is average and the days of the golden pension do not apply to anyone who started after 2009. I have to pay a private pension same as everyone else
@sean o’dhubhghaill: in the west of Ireland
@Dorothy: Sorry Dorothy. You are wrong. You do not make pension contributions. The pension levy is an adjustment of your salary. Not a pension contribution. I will say it again. If you still don’t understand this then there is nothing more can be said.
Public services pensions are paid out of current revenue! There is no pension pot to pay into. it is impossible for you to make pension contributions when you have nothing to contribute to.
If you worked in the private sector you know this
@Marcus Eugene:
Young people don’t go into jobs based on job security. They go into jobs that they feel are exciting and diverse. I would guess for most young people teaching doesn’t tick those boxes.
I would have no interest in being a teacher ( I am not a young person btw). It doesn’t mean the job is not cushy.
@CrabaRev: have you ever heard of pension related deductions?
@evafinn: I have. Its not a pension contribution.
@CrabaRev:
The public service workers complete lack of understanding of what a pension is, just shows what a huge benefit it is to them that they don’t even have to worry or even think about pension.
Technically public service workers don’t actually get a pension, they just get a lump sum when they retire, and they continue to get paid by the state at an indexed linked percentage of their average salary
Private sector workers have to pay into a pension fund, be concerned about how it performs, and to get a pension close to the average industrial wage would need over a million euro which would require contributions close to €20,000 per annum.
@CrabaRev: you are still talking rubbish. Fact public servants pay pension contributions..Firstly, the pensions are paid from current expenditure because the government uses the pension contributions for whatever it sees fit. Secondly I applaud the fact that you know the “Pension Levy” or Fempi Tax is not an actual pension contribution but a tax on public servants because they receive a public service pension. This is over and above their 2 compulsory Superannuation / Pension Payments You are quite correct the Pension Levy adds absolutely nothing to their pension but is a tax.They also pay PRSI.Believe me if you do not have enough years of pension contributions you see it in your pension.
@CrabaRev: Also because The Journal deems my second post too long I am adding to it. You are quite right, there is no pension pot because the government steals the pension money and then makes you , a shareholder, liable. The public servant however does make pension contributions. FACT.
@Dorothy:
Sorry Dorothy, but I really hope you are not a teacher. You clearly don’t understand what a fact is.
Public Servants DO NOT make pension contributions. Absolutely, categorically they DO NOT make pension contributions.
There is no pension pot into which they can make a Pension contribution. Therefore It is IMPOSSIBLE for public servants to make pension contributions
.
PRSI is a not a pension contribution. Superannuation is not a pension contribution. It is more accurate to describe it as an additional tax on public servants. But to put it in context. a principal on an average €50K per year, would get a payment of about €25K per year on retirement. Their Superannuation payments would be less than €2K per year
For a private pension to get the same would require a pension contribution of about €10K per year.
I am not running down public servants. Those are your contracted pay and conditions, and more power to you, But don’t go around telling everyone how hard you have it. You don’t. You have excellent pay and conditions and you receive an unbelievably generous payment from retirement until death. Stop moaning and get on with it.
@CrabaRev: Oh and that superannuation payment covers death in service and sick pay. Private pension contributions don’t
All aboard the gravy train for a free ride courtesy of the taxpayer.
@Ths Fer: I presume by taxpayer you mean private sector taxpayer only? Because I’m guessing you’re going to ignore that public sector workers also pay tax. Sure hop aboard yourself, spend six years in college and you can get some of the gravy!
@Seán C: pay tax out money paid from taxes
The disparity in pay was made to pay EU bankers debt. EU hardly rule against themselves receiving their ill gotten gold..
@Willy Mc Caul: disparity in pay in every factory large shop etc in the country
@bmul: except not a factory or a shop. It’s about educating our children.
@Willy Mc Caul: Indeed. They’re all in bed with each other!!
@Marcus Eugene: and what about nurses , doctors, soldiers, Garda paramedic s etc
@Willy Mc Caul: I still can’t believe that people are still peddling that. Our economy collapsed because it was based on the house of cards of stamp duty. Even if the banks hadn’t been bailed out we’d still have been up the creek without a paddle. Our tax base disappeared and the money wasn’t there for current expenditure. That happened before the bailout.
@Mark Wallace: you think our economy collapsed because of stamp duty?!
@Mark Wallace: Are u on cair or what ? did you evey hear of Anglo , f all to do with stamp duty
@Gowon Geter: The economy was built on the construction boom. When the worldwide recession hit it crashed and it decimated the government’s tax income. It also caught the banks out, but they didn’t cause it. Their dodgy practices came home to roost, but the crash happened first. And even if we’d burnt those bondholders we’d have still had a €20bn hole in the budget.
However much you may resent teachers for the holidays, that does not mean we should condone such inequality, in any profession
@Marcus Eugene: Doubt many resent teachers holidays, but probal resent the bitchn and moanin all the time about how hard they work etc blah blah with all the holidays .. FFS everyone has to work hard in their job,( in the private sector anyways ), and produce results, if you dont you will me moved on
@Gowon Geter: ‘Doubt many resent the teachers holidays’ so why does virtually everyone mention the holidays before they go on a tirade of belittling the profession. Its pure jealously and underlies this sentiment that teachers should just shut up and be grateful regardless of working conditions etc.
@Marcus Eugene: chip hurting
At the end of the artical, are they effectively saying that they are going to ask the Labour court to come to a different conclusion and over rule the ECJ.
The INTO said that it the ruling was “a bitter disappointment”.
Reality can be a bigger disappointment! Especially for unions!
How could it be age discrimination? It’s length of service. Was a ridiculous argument
@Skimothy: It’s not length of service, it’s STARTING salary. A teacher who started their career post 2011 is on a lower payscale than a teacher who started pre 2011.
@Sarah Coppinger: so who do they want parity with? And why should they. They knew this before they joined. You couldn’t do this in another job where you agreed to join on certain terms and conditions but then decide no, I want to change it.
@Skimothy: the nurses endure pay disparity and the public rallies behind them (even though they signed up to their salary too). But when teachers speak out the public tear them down (largely due to envy re:holidays).
@Skimothy: and they want pay parity with other teachers. Have one pay scale. Not a reduced one for some.
@Jonathan Regan: That’s exactly it Jonathan. Pay parity with colleagues. Why should I accept that I will earn over €100,000 less than a colleague throughout my career, doing the same job and for the same length of service.
@Skimothy For me personally, I was 6 months away from completing my post grad when the new payscale was brought in. What choice did I have after spending over 6 years in college studying what I had always wanted to do? There are thousands more who found themselves in the same position as me too.
@Sarah Coppinger: the older teachers shafted the new entrants now are backing them for parity and they will in turn look for more equal pay is the trojan horse to get a pay rise for all teachers.
Can’t wait for the ‘past productivity’ strikes.. oh, except during the entire summer, a nice chunk of winter, mid term, Easter etc etc etc etc and finishing every workday earlier that pretty much everyone else.
@Bewarethebeardz: you sound jealous. We filled out the same cao form. Sounds like you’d be interested in going back and studying for 5 years to become a teacher so that you can get our holidays. Best of luck.
@Bewarethebeardz: Sounds like a piece of piss, alright!
pay scales are a fact of most people’s employment embarrassing from the teachers unions.
@paul dunne: yes but the issue is that one cohort have one scale and another have a far more lucrative one. Same qualifications, same timetables etc.
@Jonathan Regan: as i said that is the reality in most employment teachers nurses can be no different.
@paul dunne: people get paid different rates for doing the same job in private sector?
@Jonathan Regan: Yes. it’s quite normal. People get paid for their actual performance rather than their years of service.
@Jonathan Regan: absolutely for example my job there is a 10 year salary scale meaning a worker on year 10 top of the scale earns more than a worker on year’s 1 to 10.
I’ve worked in retail most of my adult life. When I started in my current position before the recession, flew floor staff were paid a certain percentage above the minimum wage. They got a (small) increase every year. As the years went on, the minimum wage increased. And still, new staff were paid a certain percentage above minimum wage.
Never once did I hear anyone, old or new staff, complain about how staff starting years after their longer-serving colleagues were getting paid approx. the same due to the NMW increases.
The job is what it is. Every good teacher deserves a higher wage considering all that we ask them to do when it comes our children. What we need is to weed out the teachers that have a job for life despite not being up to the job. Get rid of them and their ilk.
1 million euro private pension pot is Newsspork hate speech for Public Sector. It fails to factor the 253000 from contributory OAP which blends in to your pension, unlike a private pension where it tops it up. It fails to account for private sector benefits on pensions such as removing before tax meaning the government actively contributes a welfare to your private pension. Put about 60 euro away from in your 20′s into a private scheme thats bond and precious metal based and you’d be within 20K of it as you get most of the OAP on top.
Not saying its not good but if you didn’t like the job you wouldn’t hang in for it. I have 4 kids and couldn’t imagine dealing with 22. You’ll pay in close to 200k to it over 40. Presuming avg growth of 3 % its not that spectacular.
That is the main failing we simple pay money from current employees to the current retirees. However a solid investment program would see that money reduce the pension bill to government even at bond yield growth, its close to 2% of a massive amount of money, which could be diverted elsewhere.
have your say