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AS I WRITE this, Joan Burton has just finished a press event telling Irish women that Europe has been good to them so they should vote “yes”.
In that statement, she exposes everything that’s wrong with the Yes campaign’s attitude to the EU, and to this Treaty. If I told you that if you opposed any law passed by the Irish government, you were anti-Irish, you’d laugh in my face, and you’d be right to. Yet our politicians are once again doing the rounds telling you that any real “pro-European” supports every stupid idea out of Brussels because “Europe has been good to us”.
This campaign is not about the past. I’m pro-European (indeed, I support far more EU integration) because Europe has been good to us, and I’m against this stagnation treaty because Europe is our best hope to get out of this crisis, but only if we get the policies right.
Let’s start with this Treaty, that the Government has renamed the “stability treaty”. That’s spin, but it’s only half wrong. The Treaty stabilises things all right – but it stabilises us into a long term pattern of stagnation at best, and permanent crisis at worst.
We’re in a crisis because global investors look at Europe and don’t know how the bank debts of French and German banks are going to be paid back by countries like Greece, Spain, and Ireland. The solution proposed is effectively to squeeze those countries until the pips squeak, causing huge political instability (as we see in Greece) while passing a law banning any such crisis from happening again.
The problem is that the people in these countries quite rightly object, and potential investors aren’t going to put their money into a Europe fringed by countries in economic, fiscal, and political perma-crisis that’s a direct result of EU policy.
If we want a way out of the mess, we need to tackle the core problem – Europe’s bank debt. This isn’t simply a matter of political morality – although it definitely is that too – but a matter of simple economic sense. The global community will not have confidence in the full faith and credit of the euro until the European Union federalises its debts, purges them from the system, and makes them manageable. That is an economic imperative, and slowly some politicians (even some of our own) are starting to see it.
So what about the Stability/Stagnation Treaty then? Well, let’s look at what it does and does not do. It does lock in the present fiscal straightjacket, and make it permanent – making further job-killing tax increases and politically difficult spending cuts a never-ending reality. It ties us to the ball and chain of the bank debt, meaning that these debts, which we did not incur, are passed onto our children, and their children. It purports to grant us access to the European Stability Mechanism, and we are told that that is the most important reason to back it.
The problem is that the ESM is entirely unfit for purpose. It is not big enough to cope with the demands that will be made of it. Moreover, it’s an entirely dangerous organisation – about to be granted huge powers with a blanket of legal immunity from any judicial process anywhere in the Union. Don’t believe me? Here’s article 32:
The ESM, its property, funding and assets, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process except to the extent that the ESM expressly waives its immunity for the purpose of any proceedings or by the terms of any contract, including the documentation of the funding instruments.
You’re being told by our Government that you must hand over huge amounts of power to an organisation that will in the most literal sense be above the law, will be without any elected oversight, and will be absolutely unaccountable to anybody but the smallest elite. Our Government thinks this is a good idea – but I suppose sheep rarely bleat on the way into the slaughterhouse.
This is the real, and much more fundamental problem with the current, unreformed Brussels. It has a contempt for oversight and accountability. We need real democratic reforms of the EU, like those I wrote about with Brendan Simms in the Sunday Business Post earlier this year.
We must be honest about Europe and Ireland’s real problems, and on the Treaty, it comes down to this – there are no good options here. Ireland faces so-called austerity whatever the outcome of this vote is, and anybody who tells you otherwise is being a little cavalier with the truth. We do owe money to people who funded our schools and hospitals and public sector benchmarking, and every cent of that must be paid back. The bank debt, however, is not ours. It’s not the people of Greece’s. It’s not the Spanish people’s either. It is the result of failed private companies making horrible investments in failed projects, and it must be purged from the system and federalised at all costs.
This is not just my view. The new French president wants a Treaty focused on growth, as does the German parliament. As do millions of other Europeans. The treaty is going to be renegotiated and changed and shifted – that’s a certainty. Do we want Enda Kenny going into those renegotiations with people looking at him saying “Well, Ireland’s happy”, or do we want him saying “Folks, I need something on the bank debt to get this thing passed in a second vote”?
We have time, we don’t need to rush this. The referendum should never have been held amidst so much uncertainty – and that it is confirms that our politicians are sadly more concerned with being seen as “good Europeans” that they are with building a good European Union that works for all its people.
As it is, the practical decision is very clear. Be pro-European, pro-growth, pro-reform, and say No. The politicians work for us – so give them their instructions. No deal on the bank debt? No deal.
Declan Ganley is the founder and chairman of Libertas, a think tank dedicated to fostering a democratic, federalist approach to reforming the EU.
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The first common sense post on the treaty outside of McWilliams, and a breath of fresh air after the threats and sabre rattling of FG/Lab.
The Emmigrant
How many went away
Were any of them yours
They left our shores to find away
Were any of them yours.
No bankers, developers or politicians kin
Are queuing next to to yours
All you who trusted this elitist band
All those going away are yours
They go away hope to return
Are any of them yours
They stand alone to face the world
Are any of them yours.
The elitist gave away their land
Putting greed ahead of yours
Nowhere to run nowhere to stand
All those going away are yours.
By Carlow poet PJ Brennan
I will be voting No
I tend to ignore anyone who quotes failed economist Milton Friedman, especially Declan Ganley. But I guess this time it’s a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Vote No!
Im suprise people still needs to be told how to vote NO…unless you havent seen the change in the last 15yrs…few politicians like him will tell us the thruth but majority of them are power,money mad that will do anything to stay in power…..we are tired of the lies,we shouldnt have join the euro,england,sweden didnr join so there is some thruth in there,we were lied to…vote NO
And Ganley was so right about the Lisbon Treaty wasn’t he? Look at how higher corporation taxes have been imposed on Ireland and how we’ve had to legalise abortion. Oh wait….
Jason, nick leeson brought down a bank thanks to his financial accumen. While he’s a world famous ex-trader and pundit on financial matters, it is for completely the wrong reasons i.e. disasterous actions with other peoples money. He’s the type of person who collapsed our banking system. Don’t give his words too much weight….
Until there is absolute clarity about who funds Libertas, there will always be a question mark over whether it has a particular agenda to pursue
Darren, why the dishonesty? It was thanks to ganleys successful ‘no’ campaign on the first lisbon vote that we were able to secure the concession on our corportaion tax before the second vote. Theres enough crap you can level at the bloke without having to misrepresent him.
TTL, see this thread. The leaflet was published by Declan Ganley’s Libertas. Perhaps he might like to come on here and apologise to the Irish people for it.
Trying to change the subject as usual darren? You are making a false assertion about ganley in relation to corporation tax. Yesterday you make false assertions about the ‘no’ campaign, claiming the ‘no’ side were making out that a no vote would end austerity. I asked you MULTIPLE times to provide a quote from ANYONE in the no campaign stating this. You could not.
Now, you might think that a dishonesty a day makes the ‘no’ vote go away, but there are people here who will call you on your constant misrepresentations of others. At least try and discuss your views from an honest perspective, or are you, like the official ‘yes’ campaign, totally unable to?
Poor TTL, a leftie putting forward arguments for the right wingers!
It’s in the leaflet in the link: false claims from Libertas on abortion and corporation tax.
Not for the first time, you’re twisting things. I cited numerous election posters saying voting no means no austerity. You’ll deny this, of course but people have seen them. They’re all over the place.
You claimed we were enshrining austerity in the constitution and I produced comprehensive evidence refuting that. Are you gracious enough to accept that? I have the texts on Notepad so it’s no bother for me to post them again.
I think the no side calling it the Austerity treaty implies there’s a way that doesn’t involve austerity, which is totally wrong – still doesn’t mean you should vote yes though.
This treaty is a joke, vote no.
Poor danny, having the inconvenience of people being able to scroll up and see what you actually said. You stated “And Ganley was so right about the Lisbon Treaty wasn’t he? Look at how higher corporation taxes have been imposed on Ireland and how we’ve had to legalise abortion. ”
I pointed out that this is patently false with regards to the corporation tax, as it was ganleys successful no campaign on the first vote that allowed Ireland to secure guarantees in relation to the corporation tax before the second vote.
You are misrepresenting him, either purposely like you represented the ‘no’ campaign yesterday, or accidentally through ignorance of the facts.
Which is it?
@TTL
Was the sarcasm in Darren’s original post completely over your head??
What I said was “And Ganley was so right about the Lisbon Treaty wasn’t he? Look at how higher corporation taxes have been imposed on Ireland and how we’ve had to legalise abortion. Oh wait….” <<< last two words you omitted.
I think a ten year old would see I was being sarcastic since the related claims made in this leaflet at the time were patently false.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055296614
Anyone can see the point I'm making as can you. Why are you posting such nonsense?
Jesus i hate the way most people who are voting yes assume the people voting no are all lefties. I am all for capitalism but the system we have at the moment is something else entirely. The banks and other financial institutions gambled and lost. They should collapse or pay up not the people. This is not our debt and i refuse to accept that we are left responsible by the actions of a few bastards. Vote no.
Again trying to change the subject. You stated a falsehood (something you’re making a habit of) about ganley relating to the corporation tax. It was blatant
Never thought I’d see the day I’d be agreeing with him but he is right. It is imperative that we vote no from an economical point of view (this is Goldman Sachs controlling us) but more so we need to think about more than money. I refer all to the writings of Michael collins in 1922 when he spoke of true wealth. Our people our nation. We are selling our souls and the souls of those who fought for this nation. We are cowards, afraid to show love or passion for nationalism, republicanism or pride in Eire… Stand up and let us save our one last shred of sovereignty and vote NO. Stop being sheep and let’s rebuild our once great nation, or maybe the Brits were right in that we just can’t self-govern…?
very good i say noooo way
I have to agree. The bank debt is the anchor around our neck. Trouble is – it’s not our anchor.
Anchor sounds very like a word I use to describe a person who’s considering voting yes.
Banker!
@ Ireland’s Owen – I think you meant to say Merchant Banker :-)
Well written article. Hopefully it will help the penny to drop with at least a few people.
Anchor…..Banker….Wank….oh, nevermind.
The last government made the banking debt sovereign debt. There is basically no banking debt only ‘our debt’. Our central bank is owned most of the money from the banks, I suppose we should burn our own central bank should we?
Hope you run as an independent in the next election Declan
Ireland needs a political party which will fight for the cause of ordinary Irish people.
“What lies broken, we can surely fix, but only if we break in turn the habits of mind and the tyranny of the man-made institutions which we first allowed to break the things we value – our freedom of association, our independence of action, and our individual chance of prosperity.”
Sean Corrigan
I respect his views on the banking debt but after the mass disinformation by Libertas during the Lisbon campaign, when I see him quoting some treaty article and insisting it means x and y, I think, oh God, he’s at it again.
“Even for the deficit hawk like myself, the Fiscal Pact is equivalent to an ECONOMIC SUICIDE. The Pact formula of 3%-0.5%-60% is a combination of the already failed Stability and Growth Pact targets enriched with the lethally obscure and totally unattainable 0.5% structural deficit limit.
Between 1990 and 2008 – in other words, before the crisis hit – Ireland was able to satisfy the 0.5% structural deficit target only once in very 10 years, same as Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands. Austria, France, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain never once satisfied this criterion. Two best performers in the euro area – Malta and Finland have met the target in 6 out of the 19 pre-crisis years. In terms of 0.5% structural deficit rule, all member states, except Germany will require further austerity measures.”
Constantin Gurdgiev
Darren
Declan is right about the treaty & especially the ESM. Let’s not forget that it wasn’t just Irish banks at fault that caused this crisis, it was the entire banking system of Europe & the US. The ECB also knew where the vast loans were going too, on a country by country basis, & did absolutely nothing.
Yet there has been zero accountability or responsibility for these failures. On the contrary, the entire cost has fallen on citizens who were not responsible. The ECB is staffed by, and represents, these private banking interests. They continue to dictate policies that have prevented recovery, indeed, all Eurozone economies are getting worse, not better. Millions have lost their jobs. No sign whatever of those coming back within the next decade. Because of this, the foregone output, in real goods & services not produced, runs to €100s of billions across Europe alone. That is lost prosperity we will never get back. Between 1/3 & 1/2 of our young people languish on the dole, unable to get their working lives started. Nothing on the horizon for them.
But Kenny & Co. blithely go along with yet more ruinous policies from the same people & institutions at fault. The bankers designed the Euro system. It has failed.
The ESM is another creature of the banks with unchallengeable powers to dictate policy to governments. It is no ‘insurance policy’ at all. Our debt, largely because of the banks, is near unsustainable right now – we are not getting the growth needed to make it so. This is the result of austerity. On the present path & policies, it’s very likely we will need more borrowing. But how is borrowing even more, with even more austerity going to be sustainable? This is precisely what has happened to Greece.
The ESM does not make economics sense. You cannot starve a country to prosperity. What company do you know that grew whilst cutting back on investment & sacking people? It is pure stupidity. The arrogant vested interests of the top few percent financial sector elites who have, effectively, ‘captured’, any vestige of democracy – ‘for the people’ – that we had.
Declan is correct in what he says about the ESM’s constitution;
http://taleoftwotreaties.tumblr.com/
The current situation goes to the heart of the biggest Euro flaw, that has been there all along & was pointed out right at the beginning. Productive ability, in pure financial terms, varies enormously between Eurozone countries. (Much of this is down to inherent forces, such as Geography & Demographics etc. and very deeply entrenched traditions.) The authorities knew this, & knew the Euro had absolutely no mechanism to deal with it. It was covered up by debt transfers from surplus to deficit countries. This was never sustainable.
Yet rather than deal with this fundamental flaw, and provide the ‘debt reset’ (by whatever means) that is essential to begin again, the authorities are doubling down on the same flawed approach.
The bottom line is that countries, just as regions within countries, which share a common currency +must+ have suitable & fair mechanisms of fiscal transfers between them to balance out imbalances. Recognising that there are real mutual benefits for both net donor & net receiver regions. (Such as lower external exchange rates for the more productive regions like Germany.) Sure, let’s also try and improve the productivity of the poorer regions. But let’s realise that this is a process that takes decades, not mere years, and some imbalances are bound to remain.
Germany itself knows this perfectly well. Twenty years after re-unification, West Germany is still a net fiscal supporter of the former East Germany. And it has invested +massively+ in East Germany with public funds. Of course, this also meant great business for West German industry. In exactly the same way as Euro peripheral countries have bought German goods. It’s a virtuous circle of prosperity.
Some kind of fiscal treaty, or similar, +may+ be needed as part of a thorough reform package of the Euro system. This treaty is rediculously inflexible.
We should vote NO to tell these useless political leaders, THINK AGAIN, and start representing the people you are supposed to.
I don’t agree with everything Declan Ganley says by any means, or his narrow understanding of macro economics, but much of what he says above is spot on.
Finally, a clear, honest and democratic voice on the no side.
If Irish people vote no, let’s respect that. No ESM. The people will have voted that down. That’s what the no means.
No begging more cash from Europe. We’ll cutback social welfare, public spending etc. to live within our means for once and for all.
Vote no for real reform of government and public sector.
Absolutely. Vote no to cut ourselves off from all forms of external funding, Vote no for huge cuts to social welfare, pensions, dole, schools, hospitals. Vote no for sharp reductions in free GP and medical care.
Pain (for the vulnerable), gain (for the rich).
Sovereign states need to borrow to fund growth. A country of Ireland’s size can’t “lives within its means” it can only manage its debt and finances carefully.
A state budget can’t be run like a household budget and vice versa
Well said, Caroline. We’re dealing with the lives of hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people and this “let’s see what happens” kind of social engineering advocated by those who would cut us off Greek-style from all forms of external funding to sink or swim are very irresponsible.
A state budget should be run exactly like a household budget. You don’t borrow for day to day items. You only borrow for one off things like new building.
If you’re borrowing to buy food (or run schools, hospitals, pay dole etc.), that’s BAD.
Voting yes will only prolong this. I keep asking this question. Why borrow from anyone when we have to pay it back with interest? We’re just agreeing to give them our money.
Vote no and balance the books in one go. It worked in Latvia.
Declan Ganly, honest? Really?
He is guilty of being one of the biggest liars on either side.
@Caroline
Your children/grandchildren won’t thank you when the chickens come home to roost on the huge debts you’ve accumulated over many years ‘on their behalf’…
Caroline, we have just lived through a credit fuelled bubble/boom which has left Ireland as the most indebted nation on the planet per capita.
It surprises me to hear a socialist spinning the propaganda directly out of the Goldman Sachs handbook on debt slavery for small nations. Small nations cannot fund themselves?
DAnny, will you please stop repeating ad-infinitum this falsehod that a no vote means making the adjustment all in one go. Once again you allude to being in the ‘no’ camp but repeat the ‘yes’ camp scare tactics.
Suspicious, yes?
Duh….yeah. We could go and beg for the money but why should we? The people will have said no to all this. Why ignore the people’s decision. Democracy not a strong point for you lefties, is it?
Given the rush of rightwingers to the no side over the last few days, it’s pretty clear that a no vote is ENTIRELY CONSISTENT with a right wing agenda. We’ll be left high and dry with no funding, they’ll be able to screw vulnerable people and tell us all, “Well, ye voted for this”. It’s actually quite ingenious.
Ingenious?
How about the rush of darren greys and danny gibneys, or is that darren gibneys and danny greys to post after one another constantly in multiple threads.
Strange even that one DG posts about how he’s a right wing ‘no’ voter, and the other follows up by gonig ‘look, lefties, even right wingers are voting ‘no’. Then one DG goes on about ‘vote no for cuts in welfare and spending’ and then the other DG who’s voting ‘yes’ echos that exact point.
What I find strangest of all is that one DG suddenly appeared on this site claiming to be voting the opposite way to the other DG, just as that DG had his account disabled (and was on later that day moaning about same. Since then both of these guys have been on referendum related threads at the same time of the day, claiming to be voting the polar opposit eof one another but repeating identical scare soundbites from the ‘yes’ campaign.
Very strange. Thank heavens I’m not the cynical type.
Ingenious? Hmmmm……
Me thinks the DG stands for Dolce and Gabanna … D&G …. :D No sense of the real world, when you have FFg/Labour supporting your every expense, right?
@TTL
Nobody from the no side has yet managed to tell us where we’re going to get a guaranteed source of funding, other than vague mutterings about ‘germany would never allow ireland to collapse the euro’ etc…
Seriously? I mean….seriously??
You forgot Declan Ganley in your conspiracy theory. He’s a DG too.
(That’s sarcasm, TTL. It’s not your forte but you don’t seem to have many of them.)
Like I said, just as well I’m not cynical or I might find all of there coincidences suspicious……
“… The SF/ULA/Union claim that “austerity isn’t working” may be both silly and startlingly irrelevant to the Treaty (or, if relevant, having exactly the opposite effect to their claim), but it’s not based on fiction.
Austerity – that is, cutting the budget deficit – does have a negative effect on the economy. If the government is borrowing €15bn – thereby racking up public debt – it is also channeling that money first and foremost into the Irish domestic economy through spending, public sector wages, and social transfers. The €15bn it borrows, then, is a direct €15bn stimulus to the Irish domestic economy.
Removing that stimulus all at once results in a sharp contraction of GNP – that is, in more business closures, as businesses lose government contracts or the spending of PS wages or welfare cheques. That, in turn, means more job losses and a fall in tax take. Even assuming a straight 1:1 correspondence between the fiscal deficit and the resulting stimulus, you’re looking at a roughly 10% fall in GNP. That’s a bigger fall than we experienced as a result of the collapse of the construction sector.
What that means should be obvious – a new deficit. The new deficit should be smaller than the old deficit, but without further deficit cutting, it will not be stable – the effects of the original sharp contraction will knock on for a while, as businesses reliant on contracts or wages from the first round of failures go out of business in turn, and the domestic economy continues to contract. So the deficit will need to be balanced again, and then again.
The deficit is, in fact, a moving target. It’s not something you can just balance as if it were a household budget and then that’s that – instead, when you cut government borrowing and spending, you’re cutting into the economy that supports state spending, and which state spending supports.
The “balance the budget” mantra makes exactly the mistake the anti-austerity mob like to accuse the government of making, and which the government is not in fact making – state budgets are not the same as household budgets. Come to that, even household budgets aren’t without their effects on the wider economy – part of our problem at the moment is exactly that households are doing the same as the government, cutting their deficits and trying to reduce their debt.
I agree with the intention of balancing the State’s budget, but it can’t be done all at one go – not because there isn’t the will to do it, or any of the other reasons usually trotted out, but because it simply cannot be done.
Both the anti-austerity position and the balance-the-budget-immediately positions are unrealistic. Both want things that cannot be done – the former cannot happen because we are already borrowing as much stimulus as we can, and there just isn’t any further money for extra stimulus, the latter because sharper deficit cuts lead to sharper economic contractions lead to renewed deficits, not balance. The current gradual reduction path is the way between Scylla and Charybdis.”
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78668829&postcount=23
wise words
Nama Wine Lake: The cost of accessing ESM funds:
1. No transparency on rates. We’ll be signing another blank cheque.
2. Irelands Corporation Tax Rate
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/the-esm-is-not-the-goose-that-lays-the-golden-eggs/
1. Market rates near 7%, current ESM rate 3.85%. So let’s show some goo faith here.
2. No way for anybody except us to change our corp tax.
Bravo. Finally some bloody sense. For the good of our country, we must turn this around. We’ve been compliant thus far – it has got us nowhere.
Mike Hall has helped me decide how to vote. Thank you Mike.
Art. 9 of the ESM Treaty states that the governors of the ESM can demand any sum of money from any member state allowing 7 days for the government to provide the money. We”re slaves of a banking system. What now replaces Rome rule is Brussels rule as our politicians grovel to the EU elite.
Uncertainty throughout Europe should be reason enough to postpone the referendum for now. Turmoil in Greece, no government in place, direction uncertain and a possibility they will leave or be forced out of the Euro. New government in France with a new agenda and Spain slowly collapsing through mass unemployment and crippling austerity. What’s the rush????
the Rush is so we can send a clear message to the matkets that we want to be their slaves. Vote NO.
The ESM is nothing more than a mechanism to normalise bailouts. No more Ministers standing on the steps of government buildings denying a bailout while the IMF are in building negotiating. This will be a case of ‘Ireland has had to access funds from the ESM’ to which the government response will be ‘this is normal’, ‘we are contributors to the ESM’ etc…etc…
Read the ESM Treaty….it is alot more than that and quite scary the untouchable, unaccountable bunch that will run this fund!!!
This treaty is about budgetary discipline. Tying it to bank debt and the notion of using a NO vote to send a “message” is a gamble clearly he can afford to take but the rest of us can’t. The affect of a NO vote on our domestic economy will be immediate & swift as the uncertainty created will see consumer spend dry up. Retail, hotels, restaurants will be hardest hit.He’s protected from this, we are not…
Do you honestly think passing a treaty with an ESM which has such sweeping powers and no accountability is a safe thing to do??? Who cares what might happen in the short term! This is a long term recipe for disaster.
What utter rubbish. First of all you don’t have a crystal ball. Secondly this treaty is almost irrelevant already, only a few weeks after the Germans pushed it on us. If it was solely about budgetary discipline it would be passed in the morning. As Declan pointed out the ESM is becoming a monster to which can not be held accountable and we are being asked to dissolve our economic sovereignty so we can donate and be governed by it. It’s disgusting and anyone who thinks otherwise is either deluded or has selfish motives. Even Germany do not want to ratify it anymore. Wake up for God sake!
Dave, who cares? short term? You’re either very rich like Ganley or very unemployed. Clearly, you have nothing to lose…
Diarmuid, the run up to every budget over the last few years has seen domestic spending contract due to uncertainty. It never returns to prebudget levels. The impact of a NO vote will be harsher… If you work in retail I’m particular, you’re in trouble…
Scaremonger much O’Reilly?
So you haven’t tightened your belt Caroline? Haven’t seen the empty shops and seen the thousands of jobs lost in retail? Haven’t contributed to these loses yourself by cutting back on spending?
In denial much Caroline.?
The simple realty of voting Yes in this treaty is an acknowledgement on our part that austerity and ever shrinking resources are working for us and that we are happy to do all this whilst paying back private bank bonds in full. If you’re happy with that scenario, almost certainly you will vote to enshrine that type of system into our constitution. If you have a bit of cop on, and recognise that Europe 4 years on is actually getting worse and nothing they are doing is working, but in fact making it worse whilst people starve and leave their own countries you’ll vote no!
All that you mention O’Reilly the shops closing, more jobless lower revenue going to the government coffers is correct it’s happening all over Ireland. But guess what 70% of that is caused by austerity and you want to vote yes to insert austerity into our constitution and have our budgets controlled by third parties?
Ganley fundamentally misrepresents the treaty and its implications. This doesn’t surprise me, he’s done it before. What does surprise me is how everyone has know become an expert on economics despite being very meek about it when the fake tiger years were in full swing. Ganley is sprouting populist nonsense and a read through the independent referendum commissions guide exposes this.
Good point!
Mister Ganley, are you saying that the Referendum Commission is lying? I think you should take them to court since it’s clear that they disagree with you.
And if they’re using public money for propaganda, that’s illegal so you’re bound to win. Better move quickly on this, Mr Ganley.
Declan ganley believes in EU expansion…not a popular concept at the moment.
the referendum commission was lying ans it is being persued through the courts, fo one its not called the stability treaty,, no2, their is not one article in it that makes reference to building growth or jobs like it suggests,, this treaty which proposes cuts to spending etc is only designed for one thing and one thing only,, to keep our budget tight so we will have enough money to pay back bondholders and banks,, no other reason,, it why they fear contagon across the globe because someone is going to burst the bubble.. most likely greece, i’m not a lover of ganley but in this case he is spot on,, it has to be a big no,, why would you vote yes when germany cant even ratify it, france will change it but we will still be voting on it,,, its stupid,, on another note,, may 28th we will be paying another 2.25 billion to bondholders,,,,, VOTE NO
If the referendum commission is lying they can be taken to court, yet oddly no one is taking them to court. Instead the no campaign is flinging a load of mud around.
I don’t care if Ganley is supporting a Yes or no, I don’t see how anyone trusts this man.
Just say no ……..
Hope you’re ready for your dole to be slashed beyond all recognition…
what lthe workers as bad with all the taxes and all the bills people cant pay for every day things kids going to bed starving do they care no vote NO
Is it me or are we the only country pushing this treaty through? Everyone else seems to want to wait, France, Germany etc. So why Enda are you in a rush to push this through, what aren’t you telling us?
Emergency budget this summer I think is the reason Jim. Or maybe Kenny hasn’t copped on to the fact Sarkozy is no longer President of France so he cannot have his head patted by him anymore.
I can’t believe the number of no people falling for these straw points.
Have the referendum ASAP. It’s our best chance to get a no. In a couple of months they’ll have cobbled together all sorts of pork barrel state spending to boost employment etc. blah blah. It’s just more debt. Don’t fall for it!
Danny, the money would come from EU coffers. It wouldn’t be added onto the national debt.
Darren, if the ESM has available funds, which is unlikely, it will be lent to Ireland with interest charged and will have to be added to the total of national borrowings.
You seem to have been misinformed somewhere.
I never thought I would do the same as Mr Paisley used to do, but on this issue I’m saying
No!,No!,No! and agian No!
(Ulster accent optional)
Very nature comments
we should all vote NO in order to show how much we love and trust enda and his gang!sure haven’t they said that we won’t need a second bailout so we wont need any further EU funding as we’ll be going to the markets next year!
As V Brown said last night, it’s amazing how he manages to have his face/voice in the media so often and others that can’t afford it are never heard.
He can, because he lives in America has his companies in the States and the Americans funding him! (allegedly!) People, he’s doing all this for his interests not because he cares for you or me! Another one moving on in his career into politics! Fortunately, Mr. Gallagher didn’t make it!
People have asked how Declan Ganley gets listened to so much, not realising the hypocrisy in their argument when the yes side are wheeling out ceo’s of multinationals and professors of colleges and others of those bought off by the government. As far as I know none of them are democratically elected either!
Sheila, character assassination?
Is that not a bit beneath you?
How about debating the issues?
Last time I checked Declan Ganley is not an elected member of the Dail. He is a business man with an agenda so I would be wary of his motives.
As are Google, IBM, college proffesors – all groups the Yes side are wheeling out to encourage us to vote yes so I fail to see your point?
You’re right Aiden. We should only trust politicans. They’ll never put us wrong.
Politicians can be held to account, Declan can dissapear when the whole thing goes against him.
Aidan you are joking. Politicians held to accoint…are you living on Ireland? Have you seen what has happened, after bank bailout anyone held accountable? No. after Mahon, anyone held accountable? No. people were falling over themselves to go to haughey’s funeral. There is no accountability in this country, even when poliyicians are caught red handed they still plead persecution.
Lowry, Aherne, Callelly, P Flynn, Haughey, O’Donaghue, Burke, Lawlor etc etc. They’ve all atoned for for their corruption?
Amidst uncertainty, one thing is clear a Yes vote is a permanent Yes to the imposition of billions of private banking debt on Irish backs and having voted yes any future attempts to address the injustice of it all will be met with the establishment’s response that the Irish people have already accepted the supposed injustice and ratified it, end of discussion, that alone could be the reason to vote no. if you don’t accept the billions of private debt being imposed on generations of Irish people you simply can’t vote yes, its an acceptance of that injustice under the guise of “stability”. No will not be a cost free position however, If the current position is to be continued you vote yes, that means access to secured borrowing, more immediately stable environment for attracting foreign investment, more predictable albeit deficient state revenue projections and importantly current social welfare and other vital state provisions being maintained but gradually reduced, the current position also mean continued mass unemployment, continued inefficient use of public funds, permanent austerity and most sadly a permanent acceptance of billions of assumed private banking debt on generations of Irish people. The deal on offer is that as an Irish Citizen you swallow the injustice of assumed private debt in exchange for cheap loans, its an undignified and weak position for anyone to agree to and is the preserve of dependents on money lords since time immemorial. To vote NO, is to say you don’t accept the deal on offer you reject the imposition of the private banking debt, it also means significantly greater uncertainty on funding state deficits, attracting foreign investment. It is not clear that we will be in anyway “punished” for voting no, considering the greek antics and the continued funding of same. In the long run a No vote is for Ireland as a sovereign nation, a saner more dignified position but it has to be acknowledged that the price of dignity may well be short term upheaval and considerable increased uncertainty with a significant possibility of even more rapid and acute austerity. Certainly no easy options but one thing is clear a Yes vote is a permanent Yes to the imposition of billions of private banking debt and having voted yes any future attempts to address the injustice will be met with the response that the Irish people have already accepted and ratified it, that alone could be the reason to vote no because if you don’t accept the billions of private debt being imposed on generations of Irish people you can’t vote yes, it will not be a cost free position but the scaremongering is unlikely to transpire to the degree suggested either, considering we are not the only member state with reservations on this treaty.
Very well written and very succinct. I hope the No camp use these arguments in the Dail, and on the campaign trails
Not to bring some facts here but the last government made our baking debt sovereign debt. There is basically no banking debt only ‘our debt’. Our central bank is owned most of the money from the banks, how do you suggest we burn them?
banking debt even :)
The last govt assumed debts under false information and under a continuing cloud of secrecy as to the extent of the pressure from europe and the nature of the circumstances in which such a catastrophic decision was made. It is under these circumstances and not through an open transparent publicly aware process that those debts transferred to the sovereign. Just consider the amount of misinformation communicated from Fianna Fail, initially just a liquidity issue, our own regulator paid as well as he was assuring us of this, this is how the debt was transferred. The privately assumed debt is as unjust as it is unsustainable. Realistically the only way to insist on not paying it, is to not pay it. It is a just and dignified position and had our newly elected government asserted that position publicly and consistently it would be difficult for the powers in Europe to insist on its imposition, especially considering the extensive haircuts to Greece. instead our newly elected government sought to advocate on behalf of the powers in Europe to us, insisting as they still do that it is our debt, that we must pay it and with this treaty on a fast tracked timetable. It’s too much to accept. The average German probably doesn’t know the difference between the accumulation of Greek, Portuguese, Spanish and Irish debt, its most probable had we avoided the imposition of all that private debt that we would have funded ourselves independently on the markets. Its unjust and its unsustainable, it needs to be addressed for us and for Europe.
I’d trust a business man with an agenda quicker than the gombeens we have in government anyday.
Both sides of the campaign should come together to tell this arch conservative to keep his nose out of politics for good.
So you would ban free speech if you don’t agree with the opinion expressed?
Sick Shinner… We have Enda Kenny and his vested interest groups like FFg/Labour supporting the Yes side. Should we not get the Yes camps and the No camps together to get them off the airways? And dont say they are democratically elected representatives. They were elected on a pack of lies and have lost legitimacy with the majority of the Irish people, as was evidenced by last weeks opinion polls.
No and No , when they re-run it due to us silly Irish people making enda look bad,
I’d like the journal.ie to put a poll up about the treaty. well another one. I have never been asked a question in official red sea, or any other companies poll. I used to work for Landsdown market research. I was head of dispatch, sending out surveys. they are usually sent to middle class areas. un the year I was working in dispatch, only 1 researcher was sent to Ballymun, where I’m from.
Polls do not accuratly display sentiment I find…
so come on journal.ie!
Someone needs to ask Declan Ganley whether his involvement with St Columbanus AG is a conflict on interest. Effectively, this company benefits from instability from the Eurozone and if you look at what he and Constantin have been tweeting for the past year since the launch of StCAG it has been relentlessly negative and attempting to stir up fear that would drive more investors towards products like those offered by StCAG. Now Ganley is behind another No campaign that would add further instability if it were successful. It’s not unreasonable to ask whether Ganley would make a small fortune out of a No vote. Meanwhile, the rest of us whose jobs depend on stability (both in the public and private sectors) will be stuck with the mess if the message we are giving to the world is that we are going this thing alone.
I accept your point and agree with you, however, you’re missing the wider point. Has the last 4 years felt stable to you? If you were told to enshrine the policies of the last 4 years into our constitution because Germany want to keep inflation in their own country low would you say yes please, more of the same? Something drastic has to change in Europe and by voting yes, whatever your personal feelings behind the frontmen and women, you are ensuring that nothing will change! That’s a fact. I have spent my twenties living through this crap whilst unelected bureaucrats in Europe have arsed about drawing massive salaries and pensions. 4 years on, the situation is worse. I do not want my children living through this crap in their twenties. The only way to prevent that is to vote no! No to Germany calling the shots. No to people starving in Greece. No to 8 year old children collapsing due to malnutrition in cork whilst bank debt is paid in full by that child’s mother. No to all the mire we are being put through. Cop on, wake up and fight back for Ireland’s sake!
Colin, Constantin also said that we must vote No in this referenda, so i hop you are taking all of Constantins advice… Vote NO
Then someone needs to ask enda kenny is there a conflict of interest with him being the taoiseach of Ireland while also being a prominent member of the EPP in Europe, now ask youself whos interest he really has in mind. Taking into his actions so far and the distaine him and his party are showing for the people of Ireland I would have to say he cares more about his mates in the EPP inc angela merkel! Vote no!!!
This is becoming pitiful. The depressing sight of those in the Goldman Sachs appreciation society resorting to attacking the character/motives/hair styles of those who point out the errors in endorsing this treaty because they cannot present a cogent argument for supporting it.
Colin C. It is truly remarkable how willing people are to get into bed with the devil just because he happens to agree with them on something.
I’m not any sort of conspiracy theorist but Ganley’s connections with the American military alone would make you wonder.
NO to the banking cartel. NO to their gutless fear-mongering enablers in the Dail and other parliaments. NO to paying back private banking debt. NO to endless austerity . NO to slavery. If you dont get it, it really is time to wake up!
@Sean,
I wish you well and your family in the future in Canada. I hope everything works out for you. My own daughter (23yrs) has just received her visa for Canada also. At this moment I am feeling sadness and anger, sadness that her younger brother won’t have her around for a chat and support and that I won’t be able to hold her when I want to. I need to hear and see from the ordinary people down the street. I need to hear proper discussions on why vote Yes/No. I don’t want to have to listen to someone’s own agenda. I need to know that I have voted the right way and to be given the chance to do that.
@ Sean O’Keeffe
The aim was and is not to character assassinate anyone. I just feel it unfair that someone like Ganley to be able to pay the media to follow him and record him just because he has the cash. What many people in Ireland want, including me, is to see an ordinary, honest, hardworking family being interviewed, telling their story, losing their jobs, having worked and educated their children all their lives, university not an option for them then, and now…. they have nothing, no jobs, no future here, sadness, depression, sucide in the family. I want to hear their story. To me, the Irish people, Kenny, Gilmore, etc. need to sit down and listen to them.
I don’t want to see, hear or listen to someone who can buy their way into being heard, who are very well off, living their life in the US and probably getting US backing. I want to hear how the ordinary family down the road is coping with something they did not cause. Then, Kenny might change his mind, and wait and fight for a better deal. I am neither Yes/No at the moment, but I will vote for the young people of Ireland, not me, Ireland is their future not mine.
Sheila, I was born outside Ireland, grew up in Ireland, lived nearly two decades outside Ireland. I have now been out of work just over one month and I’m trying to secure employment in Canada. If I do I will be taking my wife and 3 young children.
My life, my parents lives and soon my childrens lives will be episodes of yoyoing on and off this island due to the cyclical collapse of our economy. This does not happen because of the weather, geography, our history. This does not happen in Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, New Zealand. It happens because of political dysfunction and economic incompetence.
Our current generation of politicans are as pathetic in their competence as any that have gone before. We will not break out of this perpetual cycle by putting our faith in them and their meager offerings.
Declan Ganley is asking Irish voters to demand more and not simply slavishly accept the poisonous chalice we are being offered. The Irish people deserve better than they have gotten to date.
I don’t care if Declan Ganley has money. If he earned it legally that’s his own business. I don’t accept your assertion that he’s paying the media to follow him.
All I’m interested in is does he offer credible and positive solutions to this crisis. Can he indicate a way of breaking out of the perpetual cyclical failure of the Irish state. I know the idiots in Leinster house can not.
Unfortunately your views do not represent the views of the majority of normal people in this country. Thank goodness you are not involved in decision making in this country.
That’s article 32 of a different treaty, not the one we’re voting on.
Where are the pikemen when we really need them?
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