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IT IS WIDELY acknowledged that the Irish hospital system is dysfunctional.
The underlying reasons for this dysfunction are rarely identified correctly though.
Sadly, despite claims to the contrary, resolution of the recent nurse’s strike will do little or nothing for patients when it comes to trolley waits, outpatient clinic delays and access to the hospital system generally.
When it comes to analysing the underlying causes for the mess that is Irish hospital medicine, one needs to focus on acute medical care. Dysfunction in this area is responsible in large part for the problems affecting the entire hospital system.
To solve the problems of hospital medicine in Ireland, therefore, one needs to separate out the provision of acute, urgent, unscheduled medical care from all other types of care, in particular, specialist medical care.
In management theory, when one is faced with what appears to be an intractable problem, one usually finds that the underlying ‘structure’ is defective.
In the case of Irish hospital medicine, the structural defect is the model of care.
Yet the HSE sticks to the current model of care delivery, despite all the evidence of its ineffectiveness, highlighting the complete lack of leadership, vision and management expertise in the organisation.
Indeed, the behaviour of the HSE in this regard is best typified by the well-known quote, commonly misattributed to Einstein.
The definition of insanity is repeating the same experiment over and over again but expecting a different result.
The one thing that the HSE has demonstrated unequivocally is that throwing ever more money at the problem will not solve the problems.
I’ll outline a model of care that is built around patient need, which I have seen work successfully in a hospital I worked in, in Boston.
By changing the model of care, the daily problems of overcrowding in A&E departments, prolonged trolley waits, outpatient waiting times can be resolved.
The model of care delivered by consultant physicians in Ireland reflects the compromise by which they are expected to provide both general medical care, along with subspecialist care.
That this compromise fails to deliver prompt, high quality, care should come as no surprise to anyone.
Instead, what we see is that both subspecialty care is poor (with current outpatient waiting lists of more than 500,000) and general medical care is also poor, (mayhem in A&E departments and people on trolleys.)
This current model of care can also be seen to be the driving force behind the emigration of so many Irish trained doctors. So reforming it could help with Irish medical graduate retention and recruitment too.
The current model
In many Irish hospitals a single team, comprising a consultant physician and 3 or 4 junior doctors, will be ‘on-call’ for a 24 hour period, every 6th, 7th or 8th day depending on the number of medical consultants employed.
During this period, that team takes responsibility for all medical admissions to the hospital.
One frequently hears refrains from junior doctors following their on-call ‘we were slammed!’, ‘I have 34 patients!’. These problems indicate that there will also be a negative impact on the quality of patient care.
Over the following 6, 7 or 8 days the team whittle down their patient numbers until the team has fewer patients and then it starts all over again.
This delivery of care model, built as it is around consultants schedules, is the key structural defect in the Irish hospital system.
Such a model of care, whereby patients are admitted to a particular consultant, rather than a medical service, underpins the grossly inefficient Monday to Friday style operation of our hospital system, not to mention the compromise in quality of care.
Put another way, we can characterise the Irish hospital system as ‘the wrong (type of) doctors, delivering the wrong model of care, in inefficiently run hospitals’.
But it doesn’t have to be this way.
A different model
The first step is to separate subspecialist medical care from acute medical care, that is to separate specialist care from general care.
This means appointing consultants whose sole role is that of providing acute care, without the competing demands of their subspecialty.
Such generalist doctors are termed hospitalists. Like most good ideas, this is by no means a new idea.
Indeed, the Hanley Report in 2003 considered advocating the creation of such consultant posts but was ‘persuaded’ against this by the doctors.
Through the appointment of hospitalists, the model of care delivered can be changed. In particular, the new model of care envisages the replacement of the medical consultant lead team with instead a medical service.
Each medical service would operate a 7-day service, with each of the individual medical services admitting, and discharging, patients 7 days a week.
The model provides for greater flexibility for both consultants and junior doctors whilst also ensuring continuity and better quality of care for patients.
For example, hospitalists may wish to mirror the nurses by working 4 days on and 3 days off.
In my opinion, the preferred option would be for them to work ‘week on/week off’.
The obvious difference between this model and the existing model of care is that this new model is built around the needs of patients.
The benefits of the proposed system are manifold.
Average length of stay
The 7-day service should lead to a significant reduction in the average length of stay (ALOS) of patients, doctors working seven days a week would discharge patients at the weekend.
This will improve the efficiency of the hospital, in turn, creating additional bed capacity.
Raising the level of discharges on the weekend to that currently seen on weekdays would result in an estimated reduction in the ALOS, from 6.3 days to 5.2 days.
That should lead to an estimated 20% increase in bed availability, amounting to some 2400 beds.
One would anticipate an improvement in the discharge rates during the week also leading to a further fall in ALOS and a commensurate rise in bed availability.
Given that our spendthrift health minister, Simon Harris, plans on spending €3.2bn of taxpayer money on opening an additional 2500 beds over the next 10 years, the above increased bed availability highlights the merits of a move to a 7 day hospital medical service, possible through the introduction of hospitalists, quite apart from the other benefits listed below.
Recruitment and retention
For doctors, the most obvious benefit is the flexibility inherent in the hospitalist grade post.
By offering better work/life balance, such posts have the potential to attract Irish doctors back from overseas.
The modular aspect of these same posts also make them much more attractive to female medical graduates with young families, and indeed other doctors who may wish to continue to practice hospital medicine but do not wish to do so full-time.
Why not try it?
This new model of care should be introduced in parallel to the existing model of care in a number of pilot sites.
The initial pilot should take place in hospitals with the longest ALOS and highest trolley numbers, perhaps, for example, Cork University Hospital in the news this week after the INMO said that 81 patients were on trolleys.
This pilot approach represents a low-risk way to assess the merits of the scheme as advocated.
In summary, the current crisis in Irish medicine results from the mismatch of employing part-time general medicine physicians to deliver care to acutely unwell patients 24/7.
The solution is to match medical staffing to the needs of patients. This can be readily achieved through the introduction and deployment of hospitalist doctors.
This is the key step in switching from the current, failing, model of care to the much more efficient, proposed model of care.
This new model, if properly implemented should lead to a substantial increase in bed capacity through reduced ALOS, while at the same time leading to better quality of care for patients.
Cathal O’Sullivan MD, is trained in general medicine, infectious diseases and clinical microbiology. He is a consultant Regional Microbiologist in the Midlands.
He trained and worked in the USA (Mayo Clinic, National Institutes of Health, UAB and Tuft NEMC), in the UK (Barts and the Royal London Hospital) as well as Ireland.
He also holds a Masters in Business Administration from Trinity College Dublin.
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Gardaí and Nurses on less than 30k a year is a quite sickening statistic to read.
@Sean: plus their pension
@Paul,don’t mention the pension please,it undermines their argument,just like nobody mentions the allowances for guards,or holidays for teachers,
Well allowances are paid to gardai and nurses for working unsocialable hours.
They don’t get a pension until retirement, so it isn’t much use to them now…
Mark I’m sure the government would accomodate them if they took their wage ”restoation” out of their massive pension pot, 90% paid for by the tax payer, foregoing a little of the comfort of the future for the terrible hardships they tell us they are enduring at present.
@Cholly appleseed. …are are the paid to people working shifts in factories (Guinness,Intel) but ya don’t hear any one complaining about that! !!!
Some points: Teachers start on more than Gardai and Nurses.. thats insulting, out of the 3 they have the easiest job and any teacher that says otherwise should he ashamed of themselves. I dont doubt they do a good job but be honest.. point 2. Apart from Gardai, they all start out on the average industrial wage.. what will they be earning in 10 years.. at 22 when i came out of coll my first salary was 21000. Thay same job is still the same salary (i dont work there anymore) but with experience ive gone up the ladder ten years later. Thats what taking a job outside the public sector is about.. you may not have these opportunities in the PS but you have a job for life and a guaranteed pension.. ask any retired garda, teacher or nurse if they’re struggling for anything.. ye are paid well enough starting out.. get off your high horse..
What good is a pension to a serving Garda?
What are you talking about?90% paid by the taxpayers? Where did you read that? Any source. Gardai, nurses and midwives make substantial payments weekly towards their pension not to mention the pension levy that was tacked on.
They pay superannuation which is there pension ….they retire and get what they paid in plus the state pension all of which is taxed
@cholly appleseed: Its a big allowance all right….17 euro a week before tax!
Yes, shift workers are paid allowances in the private sector too. I don’t really see your point. I certainly wouldn’t like to stay up all night working for an allowance of around 25e a night before tax that nurses and gardai are paid.
So would you work christmas new year easter for nothing extra ….or maybe we should all close down for the holidays then where would the sick and dying be during the holidays ….and all the people in accidents and getting robbed and broken into be …..get a grip
@michael o brien: Yawn….. .Private rental market is so competitivie right now, really working well. Business man wealth creator driving down prices creating employment.
Saw a wealth creator the other day he was driving a 2002 lancer last year during his bankruptcy, luckily in 2008 he transferred his assets to his wife and she must of bought him an Audi A4. Should be Glad to pay his debts as he drives down costs and creates employment. Its men like newstalks Ivan Yeats who I think is now a UK citizen that shows the way by avoiding his debt.
Mary.. I agree with you. I’m trying to make the point that people give our about the allowances as if it’s just free money. It’s not, it’s allowances for working unsociable hours that most don’t have to work. I have zero issues with allowances being paid. I think they are deserving.
@knowingitall yes they do… Have friends in Intel, they all get paid extra allowance for working nights
@Mark Ryan: Nobody gets their pension until retirement- that’s the point of a pension. But in the private sector we have to pay for it ourselves.
The public sector also have to pay for their pensions themselves and do so through weekly contributions plus pension levy. There’s nothing for free in this world!
At 21/22 years old… sickening indeed.
@Mark Ryan….who complains? ??? I have yet to ras an article in a newspaper or see a piece on the news about TD’S or the public complaining about those on Intel or Guinness and the likes getting a bit extra for working shifts it unsociable hours!!!! So why should others complain when the Gardai or Nurses get a bit extra for the same thing?
Salaries and earnings are not the same especially for workers on shifts. A more accurate picture would be a chart of average earnings for whole time equivalent workers.
It’s not plus their pension they pay for their pension it is taken out of their wages like everyone else. In fact they also pay tax on that deduction.
Teachers have to have a minimum of 2 degrees before entering into the profession, more than any other public sector thats why they start on that wage. I would also like to point out few teachers receive that money as most NQTs start on less than full hours.
As do we in the public sector! Every forthnight it is taken out along with an extra pension related deduction. Educate yourself.
Now let’s see a similar comparison on Ministers’ earnings AND pensions
Winston Smith. The government already had that idea. They introduced the pension levy in 2009
Mr mc Carty. I hope you are not a guard as according to the Irish timer it would cost 1,000,200. Euro to support pension .if you are unable to supply facts ,then supply nothing,Also pensions are index linked.
No mention of the public sector pension levy which destroys a public sector workers take home pay . Plus unlike it’s name (Pension) has no bearing on any Pension in the future . It’s a stealth tax that for me has me paying 51% tax effectively. If the government want peace in the public sector get rid of the Pension levy because we are not going to be bought off with some crap deal . Lansdowne is dead ,end FEMPI measures now and restore public sector pay rates .
What will your actual pension be worth gross of tax Ivan?
Sorry Ivan, the pension levy that you pay is only fair… it’s probably too low actually.
I’ve been paying over 10% of my salary into my pension for years and I won’t end up anywhere near a public service pension…
I’d be happier if public service employees got pay increases but kept the pension levy indefinitely…. I’m sure there are tweaks to bad made to it but the general theme of helping to fund your generous pension is the right direction these days…
The pension levy is actually on top of what we pay in pension. Pension contributions are 6.5% the pension levy is approx another 10% on top of that
The pension contribution paid in the public sector in no way reflects the cost of the pension. In the private sector you would need to pay a lot more if you were in the private sector in order to get what you are promised in the public sector.. There needs to be a rebellion by the private sector against the hugely unfair pension apartheid system that exists in this country.
Yes, Let them set us as each other’s throats fighting over the crumbs so that we never look up to see who is dining royally at our expense. Private sector pensions are inadequate becasuse they are managed on a for profit basis which in aggregate means that the workers will always pay in more than they get out. That’s how the pension fund vultures make their profits.
To ensure a pension of €24,000/year on retirement at 65 a private sector employee would need to contribute €15,000/year from the age of 25 for 40 years.
Unless your contributing similar amounts for the same number of years – you’re not paying for your pension – we are (the private sector worker). While simultaneously not being able to afford a pension of our own
So what you’re proposing is to drag everyone’s pensions down to the lowest possible level instead of fighting to improve all pensions public and private sector?
No we are suggesting that we all pay the same amount for the pension that we will receive I.e. fairness. We are also suggesting that the pension be taken into account when deciding how much to pay civil servants including doctors, teachers, nurses, guards,
Well if it’s fairness you’re after then you would agree that we should repudiate the mountain of odious banking debt loaded unfairly on our backs? Then there will be much more money available to pay for public services and pensions.
And of course it wouldn’t be fair if you couldn’t apply to work in the public sector which of course you can.
What is unfair is that the unions have allowed the wages and conditions of private sector workers to be eroded under the neoliberal capitalist agenda to further enrich the billionaire class. It’s now time to correct that mistake and the Luas Drivers have shown the way.
Repudiate debt, you mean like the wanted to do in Greece? When that happens there will be no money to pay the public sector in any case. Guys learn the fundamentals before you spout the b.s.
And again. Money is created on the keyboards of the central and commercial banks. And guess what? The Irish state owns a commercial bank, AIB. It’s good though that you recognise that the E.U is a viciously anti working class entity and has crushed the Greek people to enrich the billionaire class.
Therefore we should be looking to exit the monetary trap of the Euro and reintroduce our own floating currency and will then face no financial constraint within the domestic currency to pay for public services or anything else. The only limitation we will face is the availability of real resources.
If the public sector pensions are so good then why not work in the public sector? Like it or not, conditions in the public sector aren’t all that great. Jobs are notoriously hard to recruit to as the prospects aren’t as great as in private sector as the likelihood of promotion is a lot slimmer and long term earning potential is poor when compared to other courses you need a college degree for. If you pick out teaching for example….. if you just graduated from college with a masters in science would you choose to be a teacher or take up the offer of a research post in a global pharmaceutical company? Careers such as teaching loose the best teachers because they can earn elsewhere leaving your children to be taught.
I’m a nurse myself and my earning potential is drastically reduced on what I would earn if I had gone ahead with a degree in business or science. I left Ireland because the working conditions are so poor in Irish healthcare. For me it wasn’t about the money, it was about the way things were ran and then getting constant tirades from people about my “massive” earnings that were not even covering my living expenses. I’m glad I’m out of Ireland now because of the pettiness of people towards public sector workers.
Mel, ‘If the public sector pensions are so good then why not work in the public sector?…’ If the public sector wage rate with perks are so bad then why not work in the private sector?
Either takes no account of what can be achieved by investing the money our else there are very high charges. You would be better using your figures just to save the money
You would need to be earning about 200k per year to have the effective tax rate of 51% you are claiming.
Are you?
I’m not working in the Irish public sector anymore!
Troll says what ?
Ive been teaching since 23 paying pension and pension related deduction ill come out with 11000 a year as I qualified after 2011. So your just assuming figures here with no evidence.
So from this and imo these people provide a vital service and are underpaid whereas politicians are completely useless selve serving idiots and get paid more along with very generous expences, if it wasnt so serious it would be funny
Derek they aren’t on that salary for very long. They get increases through increments nearly every year and these increases aren’t even performance related, which is unheard of in the private sector!
There appears to be a major disconnect between governmental logic, the realities of being in frontline service and the reporting on such matters.
The Gardai, Paramedics, Firefighters and members of the defence forces, protect this state and its citizens and a realities of the aforementioned duties often mean putting their own safety and well being on the line.
Similarly Nurses and Midwives make a commitment to care for us when we are at our most vulnerable, often going with out breaks and again submitting their duty of patient advocacy ahead of their own well being.
Teachers educate and encourage our children to reach their potential and try and foster a civil duty.
So why are these people being treated by government as collective pariah ?
Other countries recognise these professions as being integral to keeping the fabric of society intact, yet here we expect our services providers to work for a humiliating wage in light of what they actually do and in often cases exceed the most basic requirements.
The gown ent and their self imposed salary increase of 5k is the modern day equivalent of Maire Antoinette saying “let the eat cake”
Ridiculous. They are all very well paid much higher in fact than their counterparts in other European countries. And the pension provision in the public sector is completely unfair compared to the private sector.
All citizens are responsible for the security of the state and for providing oral services for their fellow citizens.
Vital
All our governments since the foundation of the state have treated the working class as pariahs. Their job is to protect the capitalist class. Any ordinary person who votes for FF, FG or Labour is complicit in their own exploitation.
So you are saying that we the working class did not vote for the government. So we are responsible for the government of the country? You imply that the situation was better before the foundation of the state?
No. I didn’t imply that. All we achieved in independence was to swap a British ruling class for an Irish one and we’ve had a century of mass poverty, unemployment and immigration under the yolk of the elites and the Catholic Church.
Any ordinary person who votes for FF, FG or Labour is voting against their interests. Big Capital has always largely owned democracy. The strategy is to control the flow of information rather than direct control of the population by force which cannot be sustained indefinitely in any case. Democracy is not possible without an informed electorate and that’s why we’re fed a macroeconomic fairytale by the ruling class with the full support of the mainstream media.
They pretend for example that money is a scarce resource which is risible nonsense. Our fiat money is created at will on the keyboards of the world’s central and commercial banks. There can never be a shortage of the stuff. The only limitation we face is the availability of real resources ( land, energy, skilled labour etc ) and we have enough of those to provide everyone with a decent standard of living. It’s an ideological choice to keep large numbers of people living in varying degrees of poverty.
Jeremy. There is a lot of BS out there about the public sector pension. It’s makes it seem that it’s money coming out of thin air. It’s money that public sector workers have made significant contributions to over 40-45 years (higher than most private pension contributions). It will take at least 13 years from retirement age for the low to middle income earner (which is the overwhelming majority) to see any money other than what they’ve put in themselves and it’s no more than €150pw on top of the old age pension. New entrants will get even less than that. It is a defined benefit scheme but it’s not this golden egg that it’s made out to be. As I said the vast vast majority of public sector workers will earn a max of 50k per annum at time of retirement so not exactly the huge sums of cash that is portrayed in the media.
A ruling class is just a different word for a government. So we swapped a British government for an Irish government voted for by Irish people who are 99.9% working-class.
And again democracy is not possible without an informed electorate though things are improving in this regard with FF and FG now on a combined 50%. There is an inexorable trend away from the mainstream parties since the 80s as more and more people are forced to look outside the system which exploits them.
And the government is just one part of the ruling class. Denis O Brien and the vulture funds are an integral part of the ruling capitalist class though we’ll never see their names on a ballot paper.
@Jeremy DeChad: if you’re so jealous of the pension that they get, why don’t you get a job in the public sector. Lots of rethoric and bs being spouted on here. Some citizens chose to work in the private sector and some chose to work in the public sector. Some choose not to work at all. Those at the front line public don’t get bonuses at Xmas, some in the private do. Now those who don’t bother to get out of bed to earn a wage will get a bonus payment at Xmas. Nothing being heralded about the unfairness of this. But I digress, if you’re not happy with the decisions you made your career and life make a change. Don’t be a keyboard warrior
Mass unemployment.. What are the unemployment figures at the moment Billy, and do they really constitute mass unemployment. And what percentage of the unemployed actually want to work. A significant proportion don’t. I wonder if you’re amongst them.
I wonder if you’re amongst the establishment parasites whose job it is to defend the status quo that serves them so well? And the long term unemployment rate during the boom was 0.25%. That’s one quarter of one percent. The unemployment crisis is caused very simply by a lack of decent jobs.
Teachers crying about pay but explain to me why they are on more than a guard or nurse!!!
@Tracey: because of the higher standards required to enter. Why is a doctor paid more than a nurse.
Absolutely…. never understood why a teachers starting salary is so high… it ridiculously high compared to other public employees and same again for private sector…
Formal Graduate Programmes that large private sector employers run generally start people below 30k…. these people tend to bd the cream of the crop…not just someone that wants to work 33 weeks per year like an overpaid teacher!
Tracey out of curiosity what do you do for a living?
Also Amused Bystander, what do you work as?
Teachers apparently get paid only for the weeks they work not their holidays.
So by that logic:
A secondary teachers gets 3 months holidays in the summer, 1 week @midterm (x2), 2 weeks for Christmas, 2 weeks for Easter.
Total of weeks not working = 18
52-18 = 34 weeks per year working
Gets paid for 22hours per week = 748 hours worked per year
Salary scale (excl allowances) = 31k-60k
Therefore lowest hourly pay on 31k = €41/hour
Pay per hour on median wage = €55/hour
Highest @60k = €80.20/hour
this doesn’t even take into account the fact that they get a lump sum equal to a years full pay when they retire!!!
The teachers are living in laa laa land.
Not to mention their pensions are unaffordable
@amused bystander,ever notice that our government’s are always densely populated by teachers.Densely.
Nurses need to have Degree to work and now moving to Masters level …teachers need a diploma and get extra money for having a degree….people like you joe really should look at what is needed for each job nurses have to keep themselves updated every year to stay registred….teachers dont fact.
@Dolores Fegan:There are many nurses out there without degrees the degree only came in in the last decade or so to improve the status of nurses.I believe nurses should be paid more .
It has already been explained you need to have a higher qualification at entry level.
That is wrong! To teach you need a minimum of 2 level 8 degrees or more recently your level 8 (BA, Bsc, BB) plus a masters. Its never been simply a deploma. Nurses entry requirement is a level 8. Garda are trained as oppossed to degrees at university level.
I completed a 4 year degree, then worked in private sector for 10+ years before paying 12k to train for 2 years as a teacher. There is next to no prospect of me getting a permanent job in at least the next 5 years (if ever!). I was lucky to secure sub work since September, but do not get paid for summer holidays, spent 7 hours planning today for next week, am in school from 8 until after 5 every day (same hours I worked in the private sector for exactly half the money). I’ve been assaulted in the classroom, dealt with children with physical, behavioural and mental special needs. You simply can’t have an ‘off’ day with 30 kids relying on you. Teaching is not an easy job, lots of people would hate it, most of us do it as a vocation, not for the (unpaid) holidays.
Minimum requirement for primary teaching is either a 4 year degree in teaching or a full degree in another discipline plus a two year masters course in teaching. The requirements have changed.
There’s no allowances anymore for teacher qualifications, that was scrapped years ago.
Those explanations in the last paragraph about new teacher increases are as clear as mud.
Did you just copy a paste the ministers spin document?
What it shows is that new teachers get paid about €8000 less and LRA only closes this gap by a few thousand. But to accept this unequal scale teachers must sign up to the changed Junior Cert which will lead to a much lower standard education.
Also the S&S payments come from HRA do can’t be considered increases under LRA.
Here’s a short video on the pitfalls and dangers with the altered junior Cert.
Well worth a watch and it’ll highlight the lowering standards being introduced.
Lowering standards,are you joking.This is from a sector that’s never sacked or reprimanded a poorly performing teacher.
Everything you’ve said is false, people can decide yourselves if its lack of knowledge or plain lies.
The altered junior Cert is a lowering of standards, removal or higher/ore levels, removal of 100% state certification, self assessment (have we learnt nothing from other industries) introduction of school designed courses, nomination wide standard, increased paperwork, less teaching time. The list is endless.
Teachers have the exact same employment rights as every other employee, every year 100s of teachers do not have their contract renewed, poorly performing teachers are assisted in finding alternative work or seeking way to improve.
30K a year for a 22 year old straight out of college is pretty fair IMO.
Now throw in 18weeks holidays and finishing at 2 everyday plus an allowance for going to college
@Darragh Mc Guire: More likely to be around 15K. Most new teachers won’t be able to get anything near full hours and will start off on half or less. Last year I was earning €280 a week. Its not easy to live on that.
I’m a nurse. Teachers don’t look to be doing too badly.
I know the starting salary looks ok, but there would be a very small percentage of teachers starting on full hours at secondary level. So if they have 12 or 13 hours it’s on a pro rata basis of starting salary. And most would not be starting on contracts, so would not be paid for summer etc. only after 8 years teaching was I on full hours, before I got a 13 hour contract of indefinite duration, which I had to go to labour court for, it meant signing on in the summer. School holidays are a worry not a treat when you are effectively unemployed for those weeks.
@MRS PARROTT….I am 100%behind you and gardai getting pay restoration..ye word long hours morning noon and night 24/7/365. Ye put up with abusing people day in day out. Ye don’t get 2-3 mths off in the summer to travel or look after you kids or a week off every 8-9 weeks in between other holidays just because, and a teacher told me this directly, the kids get tired after that time from learning (B.S). So again I will say this…look after our front line people 1st then let the others like teachers have their say and not be allowed to hold out children to ransom every time their unions decide to throw their rattles out of the playpen in a tantrum.
Hey,
Imagine a world where you get paid for doing your job, where you get allowances for looking like you can do your job better and where you get paid even if you are poor at your job. Surely a dream.
Now imagine a world where there are no jobs, where there is no crime, no students, no illness a bit like the private sector in a recession when there are no customers.
Our country needs our civil servants. The men and women on the front lines do not always get the thanks they deserve and so many work their fingers to the bone trying to make a real difference in people’s lives. My observations are not in anyway directed to the good ones but the blood sucking, lazy leeches that are draining our resources both financially and morally. You all know the ones, and they are in my opinion worse than the dole cheats of our nation. At least dole cheats are willing to work in one way or another while the “thieving” civil servants are occupying positions that many would love, they irritate the real workers, place obstacles in the way of development and use their pathetic energies making sure tasks won’t be done instead of devising ways tasks can be done better.
The front line staff like Gardai, nurses, teachers, emergency crews etc. deserve more and they work damn hard but there needs to be a better way of getting rid of the bad ones.
Pay rises can be obtained and financed from within by improving day to day simple things and not by union leaders stirring up bulshite hype.
And what has your point got to do with pay restoration for them,your raising a management issue or policy issue.. This article is about pay
Yes, the article is about pay and my point is allow the dead wood to be got rid of and pay the real workers properly and fairly. There is far too much waste.
The chameleon Mickey Martin hopes we’ve forgotten that he and his party played the key role in gutting the living standards of ordinary people to pay for the banker’s debts. And spare us the “all we’ve been through” guff. There is no we. There is us the majority working class and there is the capitalist elite that you speak for.
Standards of living previously msde better by successive FF governments. Just for balance.
Can you tell us exactly how FF improved the living standards of ordinary people? ,Was it maybe by facilitating the huge property bubble which saw people pay 10 times the average industrial wage for a sub standard house in Portlaoise? With a 3 hour commute to work and the children dragged from the bed at 6 to be reared in some industrial crèche?
The only people FF made standards of living better were for themselves. They destroyed this country. I am not a major fan of any political party, but FG inherited a sinking ship from the previous buffoons.
Ordinary people voted for Fianna Fail and for other parties over the years so they have to take responsibility to some extent for the disastrous consequences of the economic collapse. Perhaps we should give up voting and invite Kim Il Sung to take over and implement the socialist utopia suggested?
They voted for FF on the basis of false information peddled by the party with the full support of the mainstream media. Democracy is not possible without an informed electorate which is why the elites go to such lengths to misinform people on the nature of the exploitative system we live under.
False information. Caveat emptor! More fools they were. I suppose a communist revolution would be the best solution as in N Korea, China, Cuba, Venezuela. East Europe were very happy to embrace a mixed economy after the communist nightmare that they endured for several decades and that you are now suggesting.
North Korea is a monstrosity and is as far removed from socialism as it’s possible to get. Neither can China be considered socialist as its viciously anti-democratic and socialism by definition requires meaningful democracy. Socialism lasted in Eastern Europe(Russia) for about 6 years from 1917 -23 until it collapsed under massive external attack from all of the capitalist empires and internally under Stalin’s power grab.
Venezuela and Cuba have elements of socialism but neither can it defined as socialist though it’s notable that those nations manage to protect the welfare of their people far far better than the poorest countries on the planet which all struggle under capitalism with billions living in abject poverty.
So we see that Cuba a small country under jackboot of the most powerful empire in the history of the planet (and champion of the free market) with an illegal 50 year embargo has an infinitely better public healthcare system and lower infant mortality rates than its imperial tormentor.
The U.S capitalist elite hate and fear Cuba because it sets a very dangerous example for them. This is why the embargo has lasted for decades and why they’ve attempted to murder Castro hundreds of times.
So the greatest empire in the history of the planet with untold resources at its disposal is being outperformed in key areas of human wellbeing by a tiny isolated island nation that it’s trying desperately to crush. Cuba has developed the Meningitis-B, Hepatitis-B and Dengue vaccines a treatment/vaccine for lung cancer and in a moment of supreme irony are making it available to the U.S.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/02/22/cuba-lung-cancer-vaccine_n_7267518.html
Cuba has also sent 300,000 health workers on international missions to over 150 countries worldwide and it’s literacy campaign has educated 10 million students around the world.
Though not perfect, Cuba shows the potential of what can be achieved if society’s resources are used to meet the needs of the majority and not funneled into the gaping maw of the elite under the exploitative ideology of capitalism.
I was thinking more of ghe social welfare increases and benchmarking Billy. The first banking bailout if paying a big chunk of people rent for them wtc. Medical cards alround. That sort of thing.
Incidentally alot of which was paid for by the property bubble. Get your tax return in last week Billy?
@lavbeer: And all of the resources that allowed any improvements in the living standards of ordinary people were created through the labour of those same ordinary people. FF and any government just distribute what the working class have created and FF and the Greens gave a huge chunk of those resources, past, present and future to the parasite banks.
The biggest problem with socialism is not that it cannot work long term, it’s that the majority of people don’t want it.
Correct me if I am wrong on this. 1) Public servants are looking for pay rises while the Universal Social Charge is in place. 2) Money cannot be printed in the Euro zone any more. So where do they expect the money to come from?
@Val Martin: short answer. They don’t care.
Bring down the salaries of politicians to what public service workers are being paid. See how quickly things will change.
Money is created in the Eurozone. But it’s handed over in vast quantities to the delinquent finance sector instead of being used to stimulate the economies back to growth and restore living standards for everyone. Charity for the elites and austerity for the masses.
Pay restoration.
For reference can you benchmark them against the orders care sector? I know plenty of people in the private sector who took between 30-100% pay cut.
If it’s so hard to get a full time job starting out as a teacher maybe it’s because there are too many graduates ? How many hundred come out every year from teaching colleges along with the online Hibernia course graduates?
We in the public service lost cuts of up to 14% not including a levy on the pension which on most cars was bigger than the pension contributions. Stop focusing on guards nurses and teachers. There are many support grades within the HSE that put in the same hours . The SNA s and many others took yhe same pain while doing an equal job albeit not graduate qualified
The fact people are trying to make is private sector workers took the same pain.
Instead of paying for pay increases for the 300k public sector we should be asking for a further reduction in USC which would benefit everyone equally
Public service workers aren’t interested in equality.They know that wage increases can only come about by damaging the services they are well paid to provide.If they don’t like the pension levy then remove it and let them get their own pension like everyone else.They wouldn’t know hard work if it jumped up and bit them.
The Pension Levy is not going to pay pensions its a levy placed on the public sector worksat 7.5% of there salary to help bail out the banks supperanuation is towards there pensions .
Feel awful for them NOT!!! being a ordinary hard working civilian earning a lot less and working 50-60 plus hours a week myself
Should have joined the civil service!
Probably should have
I think the thing that people tend to forget about regarding teacher wages is that it is incredibly difficult to secure a full time job when you’re starting out. If you’re lucky you might start on half wages for the first few years so that 30K would be halved. Many people are also stuck subbing which can be very unreliable.
Its also something that isn’t taken into account when comparing our wages to other teachers across Europe. You can walk into a full time position in the UK, but here its near impossible.
Still getting paid more than their counterparts across europe . most on a pension after retiring of a tradesmans wages. million euro schemes for nothing .enuff whingeing please
I don’t give a damn. I was targeted because they could. I want it back. I don’t want it back under under Landsowne Road.I want back that which I had signed a contract to work for 12 months previously. I left the private sector to work in the public sector. I know both sides of the coin and I know I had my pay cut without proper consultation
I look forward to the Troika’s return, there’s a job to finish and some entitlement coughs to be softened.
@PaulJ: this is a ridiculous argument. Increments aren’t as frivolous as you make them sound. In fact they’re insulting. They are also capped and then these services pay taxes according to them. The pension that they will be entitled to for 40 years plus service will be roughly a €15,000 lump sum if they became employed after 2004 and they are contributing now. I’m sold anyway. Let’s all become nurses, teachers and Gardaí. Let’s pay off that mortgage with that extra euro an hour that we get every few years! Let’s battle it out with our colleagues over the holidays about who gets to spend less time with their families. Let’s see who is happy enough to home school a child, take care of their own sick loved ones, strive to protect society unarmed. These services aren’t looking for medals, or recognition for the jobs they do. They’re looking for what was taken from them to pay for the big bankers’ mistakes,our governments mistakes and the ones they continue to make. The public service is there for everyone and that includes the people on the same wavelength as you. If you feel that services from these groups is inadequate then maybe think at the conditions that they are working in and how it is only a matter of time before it worsens.
Qualified Early years teachers 2010 €6,600 2016 €6,600
People should break the payments per down for Gardai and teachers then take it o account the jobs such as the conditions both have to endure possibly during their days work in 2010.So it goes something like this, garda was on €25,745 they worked taking into account holidays and days off 270 days a yr which works out at €95.35 per day in 2010…now heres a teachers break down for the same yr, 180 days a yr worked at €36,890 which equals to €204.94 a day worked and nurses fell somewhere in between. And let’s face it how many of us will run to a teacher in a time of crisis??? Your kid is very sick it’s more than likely when you take them to a hospital the first medic you get is a nurse or you have been robbed it’s the Gardai you go to…so if any of th 3 professions have a cause for getting a pay increase its the Gardai and nurses after all you will hear on the TV or read in a paper about kids bring home schooled, you will rearly or if ever hear of some being home operated on even tho you will hear of home births but there is always nearly a nurse there to help, or you will never hear of some home investigating a crime but there is never a teacher present when being home schooled.
When I worked in the public sector i had vhi paid, i had a fully expensed car that I contributed a small amount to and I had a defined benefits pension of 66% of final salary. I also had life insurance cover.
Perks that no.public servant would get
On the teaching statistics – pre 2012 teachers skipped straight to point 3 on the pay scale , current teachers start on point one. It should also be pointed out all figures given are for people on fill hours. Due to continued casualisation of the profession by governments you have people going to interview for a 5 hour contract , or doing what I have done for 3 years I work in 2 schools 10 minutes apart from each other . We should not be in a situation where we have 3 teachers on 5 hour contracts that doing a job 1 person full time could do.
The Lansdowne Road agreement provides for progressive restoration of the austerity reductions to public service pay & pensions, but leaves those outside the public service out ,dependant on Trade Unions, Employer awards, or the annual budget, in the case of welfare supports.
There is no process, or even consideration, of restoring the “Lifetime” reductions to occupational pensions caused by the Noonan levies.
Many, if not most, of these pensions are lower than the public service equivalents, & it is grievously inequitable that no one is representing this constituency, in the scramble to snatch a bigger share of the economic cake.
Whilst we all want our public servants to have adequate income, let it be noted that today’s pensioners had to work in tougher, more stringent times, & do not deserve to be left out in in Beggars Bush.
Step one has to be to separate out these groups. The roles are too different. Your average teacher does a fundamentally different job than a Garda. There is no similarity. That Gardai seem to be paid so much less just speaks to the priorities of the Dail and the familiarity TDs have with certain professions.
This is what’s wrong. This is minimum wage. There’s people in the dail on 90K a year and we don’t even know who they are. What they do and who they do it for. And they’ve just got the 6K “Pay Restoration”. However for the people working the every day front line services that every person avails of. The money just “isn’t there”. It’s not going to wash.
The goverment can only agree to pay themselves and guards they somehow feel this is the only way foward…. YE believed F.G. would solve all the woes of the country and voted for them well fools ye… nothing is working in this state we are a failed state…..when Trump gets going we will see shanty towns outside Dublin
Economy is still in recovery, accommodation costs is the real issue for most workers, Unions may not want a Dublin salary weighting but it could address short term demands, be affordable & not result in reduced services?
Let’s see how our TDs fair out. Please.??
Ireland is more interested in accommodation Multinationals to evade tax than paying internationally competitive
wages to our Gardai, Nurses and Teachers.
What are we?……………a Third World country !!!!
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Lucky they are jobs which they say productivity can be measured or else they be rightly f***ed
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