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EVERY EVENING FOR the past two weeks, TheJournal.ie has been bringing you the latest news and campaign moves, squabbles and – hopefully – useful tidbits of information as we face into the 31 May Fiscal Compact referendum.
As this is the last evening before you go to the polls, we thought we would leave behind the dying stings of the ‘Yes’ and ‘No’ campaigns – and failed High Court actions – and bring you the simple, clear facts that you need to make a decision.
Where will I vote?
Polling stations will be open tomorrow from 7am to 10pm. Your polling station will be listed on the card mailed to your home. You don’t actually need to bring this card with you – just photographic proof of identification, such as an in-date passport or driving licence – will be sufficient to claim your voting slip at the polling station.
What do I need to know?
We all got a little tired of emotional debates like this one and that one and this one, didn’t we?
So TheJournal.ie decided to ask YOU what you needed clarified about the actual text of the Fiscal Compact which you are being asked to ratify tomorrow. We took your most commonly-asked questions and put them to the Referendum Commission, the independent European Policy Centre think tank, a representative of the ‘No’ campaign and a representative of the ‘Yes’ campaign. We asked them to answer in as plain-speaking, non-politically inflammatory language as possible. THESE were their answers. We hope they help, even a little.
We also translated the Fiscal Compact into layman’s terms for your perusal (and possibly enjoyment – but we’re not promising anything).
What about the rest of it?
If you can’t get enough of referendum coverage, you should click HERE for all the thrills and spills since the referendum date was announced back at the end of March.
Can we really get away from referendum chat this evening?
Not on social media you can’t. It turns out that no watchdog – certainly not the Referendum Commission or the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland – has control over what the ‘No’ and ‘Yes’ campaigns can say on social media. The broadcast moratorium on coverage of the campaigns doesn’t apply to them in that case, apparently.
You are also likely to spot a poster or two on your way to the polling station. But how good/awful were this referendum campaign’s crop of billboards at getting their message across. Find an interesting analysis on that very subject here.
And if you want to stick your fingers in your eyes and ears entirely, we have put together a Referendum Free Zone for you to enjoy. Starting with this opus. Enjoy.
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On the Tonight with Vincent Browne show, 25th of april 2012, Stephen Donnelly TD (one of the few good men in politics in this country) revealed that he had submitted a question 3 times asking if Michael Noonan, who was at the meeting of European ministers when the blackmail clause was first concocted, agreed to it being inserted at the last minute into the Fiscal Compact Treaty. On the first occasion he received the reply “Yes, the minister was at the meetion”, the second time he received the reply “Well I didn’t disagree” (pure cute hoor politician answer there) and on the third attempt trying to find out whether Noonan agreed ot at least objected to the insertion of the blackmail clause…received no reply.
Noonan was aware at this point that there could be a referendum in Ireland to ratify the treaty. The blackmail was allowed happen because fine gael knew they could not possibly get this treaty past the Irish voter fair and square without threats and blackmail. They could have stopped the gun being put to our heads but did not, and are complicit in allowing it to happen in the first place.
The question that relates to this is, is the gun loaded, is the threat empty?
Would the eurozone and ECB refuse to extend the program of the country repaying its debts (and bankers debts too), hitting its targets and meeting its commitments, or do they allow a catastrophic disorderly default, destabilising the Euro, decimating the ESM and possibly bringing down the whole house of cards, also wrecking Germanys export led economy in the process. Are the same people who wrote off hundreds of billions of Greek debt and extended more money to Greece, the black sheep, to stabilise the Euro, REALLY going to refuse the star pupil and cause themselves irreprable damage in the process?
You know the answer. I know the answer. Remember the gun to your head is not loaded when you vote tomorrow, and then use that head to make a reasonable decision without threats or coersion.
Excellent!
Yaawwwnn! Go to bed and stop worrying your little head about it. It will be what it will be….
Hardly surprising from a shower that would sell their own country down the river.
“The negotiations went downhill from there. On one side was the European Central Bank, unabashedly representing Ireland’s creditors and insisting on full repayment of bank bonds. On the other was the IMF, arguing that Irish taxpayers would be doing well to balance their government’s books, let alone repay the losses of private banks. And the Irish? On the side of the ECB, naturally.
“In the circumstances, the ECB walked away with everything it wanted. The IMF was scathing of the Irish performance, with one staffer describing the eagerness of some Irish negotiators to side with the ECB as displaying elements of Stockholm Syndrome.
“The bailout represents almost as much of a scandal for the IMF as it does for Ireland. The IMF found itself outmanoeuvred by ECB negotiators, their low opinion of whom they are not at pains to conceal. More importantly, the IMF was forced by the obduracy of Geithner and the spinelessness, or worse, of the Irish to lend their imprimatur, and €30bn of their capital to a deal that its negotiators privately admit will end in Irish bankruptcy.
“Lending to an insolvent state, which has no hope of reducing its debt enough to borrow in markets again, breaches the most fundamental rule of the IMF, and a heated debate continues there over the legality of the Irish deal.”
Indo
well said ,a point that seems to escape mainstream reporters is we only needed a bailout because the previous cowardly government agreed to pay 100c on the Euro of unsecured bank debt, yes? Now we would only need a future bailout because of the present showers capitulation to pay mostly German and US bondholders .Ok my point we owe billions to bondholders who are mostly banks, the same banks who will be buying future government bonds ie they convert unsecured debt into secured government debt .Its scaremongering to suggest Ireland cannot re-enter the bond market, bank will jump at the bond as they will get the money straight back
don’t forget to bring your pen tmw because they will only give you a pencil for some reason or another(the big rubber comes out of bag)
True – the answer to the question of whether Europe could leave Ireland out in the cold is at best a maybe.
It is only speculation on your part that it would be otherwise.
The Europeans could well decide to punish Ireland for not ratifying the treaty – what then?
“leave Ireland out in the cold” – you mean, refuse to lend us the money to pay them back with?
Punish us by not letting us pay up to 11 billion into a fund so we can borrow 50 billion from it, rather than not have to find 11 billion and borrow the same money on the markets at a higher percentage point. Oh, the humanity…won’t somebody please think about the bondholders children…
I mean deny us access to the ESM. Don’t forget that just the fact we have access to the ESM will increase investers confidence as they know there is much less chance of a default and they’ll get their money back
The question of access is manufactured blackmail. Now I know a certain element don’t have a problem with our people being blackmailed if it helps their own personal agenda, but I and a lot of others do.
It is not manufactured. It Is clearly written in the treaty that the ESM is only available to states who ratify it. To state otherwise is just not true
If Europe left Ireland out in the cold they would be completing the largest self-inflicted nasal amputation in history by a country mile.
Charles Dallara has valued the cost to Europe of a Greek exit/default at approx. €1.25 Trillion. Fact is due to european finances complex web of liabilities it is impossible to say how much it would cost or where the economic damage would end. The cost of an Irish exit/default would be in same ball park.
“The head of the IIF, Charles Dallara, says a Greek exit from the Euro would be “somewhere between catastrophic and armageddon”
Businessweek
Dave, can I ask if you watched Newsnight on BBC 2 this evening. It was all about the the Eurozone crises, Greece and Ireland and whether or not the euro as a currency will fail. If not it is available on BBC iplayer. Krugman was Paxmans guest and its well worth a watch. Krugman is very clear and articulate in explaining why the Fiscal Compact is a very bad idea.
Gary Crowley – if your around you might want to watch it aswell. Who knows maybe his arguments will change your mind.
No anne, would have liked to but am at work. Will try and watch it later though
There was no question of access to the ESM for ireland until it became apparent the Irish people would have a vote on the fiscal compact. The blackmail clause was then adeed to the treaty at the last minute dave, a manufactured threat to coerce a yes vote. This is just the facts. You want to dispute this, take it up with Stephen Donnelly, one of the few good men in Irish politics, who referred to it as gun to the head diplomacy.
We dont get access to ESM if we ratify this crap, we get the right to apply to the ESM and wait in line while hoping that they won’t say feck off and wait till we see if we need to give the spanish 400 billion and the italians whats left of it. You yes voters are the biggest idiots this country ever produced. Open your ignorant eyes.
Tomorrow you yes crowd are going to commit the biggest act of treason since Dermot McMurragh decided to invite his pal Henry II over for a straightener witn his rivals, and you can’t even defend your reasons for it, because your sheep who believe everthing your self serving government tell ye. Remember to tell your grand kids what you did.
Jayzuz martin, chill out man. It’s a fiscal treaty not a declaration of war.
No voters will be able to say how they put their country at risk because of xenophobic paranoia that the dastardly Germans are out to get them.
David , kan ich sache erste, das fur sich das ich habe im deucthland fur twei yahre gewont , und ich glaube ich weis was die deutche luete ist glike. And they are still uninformed just like you and just like u they dont ask qusetions they believe what they’re goverment tells them without question.
Or they believe a lot of paranoid lies and half truths like you Martin.
Oh writing German doesn’t prove anything
David. I dont’t believe half truths if I did I be voting yes to-day. I question everything, takes a bit of time but its worth it ;-)
Just vote Yes. Thats all you need to know.
U and the other sheeple can do that. I’m voting no
Scrap for someone who seems to believe a no vote is the best way forward you seem to do an awful lot of name-calling and general spamming. Perhaps, and maybe I’m just crazy here, you could just deal with the issues.
Don’t be an
That? From Gary the serial poster?
This treaty is turning into a fight between the people who want to stand up for their country and their peoples suffering and those who have irish passports and who stand for nothing but personal gain. And you guys have never beaten real us yet.
Subtract the word real from above….. Cheers
I hope all yes voters will be man (woman) enough to admit their part in the impending calamity. Get off your knees and send a clear message to the Fine Gael/Labour axis and Ms Merkel that the Irish have some sense of dignity left.
Same can be said of No voters
I actually felt my blood boil today when I turned to page 5 of the IT to find a full page add from the ‘Alliance for Ireland’ with 5 ‘good reasons’ to vote Yes.
1 reason was – ‘Voting Yes will give hope to our children that they have a future here’ ??? Where does it say that in the treaty ? Porkee number 2 reason was ‘Voting Yes will create confidence in consumers that will increase growth’ – Really!? And finally they said ‘Voting Yes meant we would have to keep our house in order and not get into this same trouble again’ – well firstly the wording is very Patronising but also this is another untruth ! It was the false tax bass and increased public spending that created the sovereign deficit crisis!! This treaty does not stop that again.
People like Jim Power,Niall Quinn, Blair Horan 100 others signed the add! I still shocked by how disgracefully misleading it is and that these people put their name to it!
George Orwell couldn’t have written that ad any better
Vote yes and u’ll be skyping ur kids
I’m sure the signatories got paid. Shame on any that did
As of 2 o clock the media isn’t allowed to fill your heads full of the crap Enda and Co have told you about tomorrows vote. The simplest way to describe what your voting for is this, The ESM when its established will be alot like a Private Central Bank (think America’s Federal Reserve) . As the ESM is a private organisation run by unelected officials you can be sure that it will serve its own interest (like NAMA). No government, no court and no existing laws can challenge the ESM but the ESM can take us to court(by us I mean our nation). Any money borrowed through the ESM will be payed back with interest. These rules will enshrined in to our constitution. That simple means that we will permanently trapped in an Austerity program that caters for the elite banks.
Remember, back in 2008 before Lenihan and Cowan guaranteed all bank debt in Ireland , Ireland was actually the best European country as far as its fiscal deficit was concerned, our huge debts are due to the banks debts and the bailouts. Germany is only one country in the EU and yet they manage to control all EU directives and policies.
If you vote yes tomorrow, you’ll be voting for more cuts, more austerity and even more debt.
If you vote no, you’ll be voting for democracy and change.
They inserted the “blackmail claus” to force us to vote yes so that we may continue to place more debt on Ireland through further bailouts. Remember, even if we don’t seek a bailout, we will have to pay to support a country that does. With only one weeks notice. If you read the Treaty you will see that the ESM can change its 700 Billion fund and increase it to anything they want. And nobody can stop them. Exactly like the Federal Reserve.
If your government says yes and the banks are saying yes . Will it really be the people who benefit? You the normal Irish Citizen is not responsible for this crisis, nor should you be the one who is burdened with it.
Did you know that most EU countries want Ireland to vote NO ? Isn’t it strange how in a Democratic Union of European countries , Ireland is the only country with a vote ? Ever wonder why?
It really is time to start thinking hard and asking questions. Be proud of being Irish for thats what you are. You are not European, your Irish. Use your vote for the actual good of our country.
Well said Chris. A significant and thoughtful post.
Thank you Chris
Very well said Chris its a NO from me.
Vote Quimby
How can you vote Quimby? He released Sideshow Bob from Prison- a man twice convicted of attempted murder! I could never trust a man soft on crime like Quimby. That’s why I’m voting for Side Show Bob.
Glenn Quagmire for President…
We are being made a laughing stock of on Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman – BBC 2 (on now). Apparently other countries are looking at us and laughing and calling us the clowns and slaves of Europe.
We gota get those self serving clowns out of lenister house, before they serve their full term, and allow the ecb to have their way as they said during the week “and put Ireland into recievership. “. Thanks for the bb2 tip , watchin paxman now.
Free Phil Hogan!
….with every box of cornflakes.
Never keep him locked up.
Don’t you mean SHOOT phil hogan?
Great info, thank you Journal team (didn’t change my mind though)
Off topic – we have the only flag that doesnt have red or blue on it in the finals!
Don’t forget to bring your own pen tomorrow……the pencils provided dont put up much of a resistance to the ‘not another red cent’ crowd
I’ll be at the polling station for 7am.. I want to get the NO ball rolling !!
Good man shayno, keep an eye out for inda who’ll be getting his no balls rolling around the same time….
Roll on Friday for the results.
Shocking really that polls show 55-60% of the electorate are planning to vote yes.
Perhaps a portion of them will grow some balls and stand up for their country.
Between that and the ‘undecided’ voting NO we should be able to change the tide of impending foreign rule.
They do not chucky, The decideds are 60-40 with a third of voters undecided, meaning for every 15 people polled 6 are a yes, 4 are a no and 5 are undecided. Its been spun so the nos and undecideds won’t bother putting the effort to vote cos they think its a wasted journey. Nothing is further from the truth.
Chucky – Cork 96 FM did a text survey. Aprox 2200 people responded and the result was 81% NO 19% yes. Dont think anyone should be counting their chickens just yet. Well except for FG as they have the biggest chicken of all in Edna Bok Bok Kenny.
No jobs will be created….! Vote yes and you’ll be skyping your children and grandchildren….! NO NO NO
If it is a No vote, I hope they hold the referendum again- just so the craic in these comments can be had again also. I’m going to miss the poems most I think.
If we vote yes, I’m sure you will enjoy funding the Spanish bailout.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/20/ireland-second-biggest-bailout-donor?intcmp=239
That’s not a very good poem Censored!
Have to agree with you this once Ignoreland
On your original comment that is – not on censoreds.
Ignoreland, i am sure we won’t need to wait for another referendum vote to cross paths… I for opne don’t intend relenting on my appraisal of this Governments performance any time soon. And something tells me you won’t give up your unwavering support of them either ;)
I’m refrackered
A simple NO will suffice please god …
Looking forward to reading the sanctimonious smugness that will be posted on the Journal whence we secure Victory!
Gosh you didn’t need to wait for a victory for that.
Vote No!
It is a great relief that the ESM will give us Bailout 2.
BUT has anyone given consideration to where we are going to get Bailout 3?
Or 4?
Or 5?
Or 6?
…
Vote No
Well that’s what we are…and people are still going to vote yes..the government are treating the Irish people like stupid little children..maybe we deserve what we get as we don’t seem to have a problem with being walked all over…
Well that’s who we voted in, maybe sinn fein and people before profit is the answer, they seem to have all the answers.
They should call it the doomsday treaty cos we’re ‘even more f@@ked and for longer’ if it gets passed
Krugman on Newsnight BBC 2 right now
Damn.. I missed it. Did the Beeb put any particular slant on the whole thing? Feckin’ Abie Philbin Bowman was on when I tuned in!
Martin try BBC iPlayer. If its not up yet it should be by tomorrow. I recorded it cause I was hopping into the bath when it came on, but from what I could hear of it, his reasoning was flawless. Last Greek PM was on aswell and he told Paxman off for being disrespectful to the Greek people in his introduction to the programme.
Krugman was excellent on Newsnight.
Made mincemeat of a Tory & a bankster who were peddling the ‘austerity’ mantra which has wrecked the UK economy & done nothing to improve their debt position, exactly as predicted by Krugman & others.
Reality is exposing this neo liberal ideology for what it is – a fraud perpetrated for the interests of the financial & wealthy elites.
The tide is turning finally on ruinous policies of the ‘authorities’.
Ireland should not be voting to agree anything at this point. Vote NO.
With all the negative talk about our own, the Germans will surely save the day, seems like the country is going for a yes.
people just keep voting NO, u’ll see soon that sie germans cant have it both ways….
My wife is going in to hospital for an operation under full anaesthetic tomorrow. Coincidentally, I’m going in to the same hospital for a check up and other tests due to an ongoing disease. I am under strict instructions ( by she who must be obeyed ), to get her to the polling station, by hook, or by appropriating a wheelchair if necessary, whether legally or otherwise, so that she, like me can vote. She is supposed to be going home after the operation anyway and on the same day, but if delays occur, said actions will take place. She is totally aware that their is a slight chance of these actions putting her life in jeopardy, but nonetheless this is what she will do. If some complication occurred and she were to shuffle off this mortal coil prematurely, then doing so, in the knowledge that she died trying to do the best for her family and country would not be a bad way to go, in her opinion. Did I forget to mention that she is voting NO?. Me too.
The very best of luck to your wife tomorrow with her surgery and to you with your own visit… I will also be voting NO anyway best of luck
The very best of luck to you both tomorrow at the hospital…. And I too am voting NO and will continue to vote No till my family have the choice to work and live here in their homeland Ireland
Fair play to your wife and you D Sword. It’s an honourable thing to be willing to risk dying for your country and her people. Ye are true patriots.
Vote No. It’s one of our last chances in the near future to actually do something and be heard. Rather than protest and protest while the government sit behind the gates of Leinster House and pay No attention to it.. Have your say and finally say No I do not want this treaty implemented in this state.
Bully boy tactics scaring people into a vote if ya dont do this and ya don’t do that this will happen.. This is to find out how much more Europe want us to bend over and do Ireland up the ass ….
have your say