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INSURERS’ SPENDING ON liability and motor claims has barely changed in a decade despite suggestions that Ireland’s rampant ‘compensation culture’ has been behind the country’s recent insurance crisis.
And over the past four years, official awards for personal injuries have fallen significantly – contradicting allegations that growing claim numbers and out-of-kilter payments for minor injuries have fed skyrocketing premiums.
An analysis of insurance and compensation data by Noteworthy, the investigative journalism platform from TheJournal.ie, has found:
Instead of suffering a recent explosion in spending on insurance claims, firms’ costs for motor and liability cases were greater in 2005 than in any year since – although claim costs may take several years to filter through the system.
Stuart Gilhooly, a former president of the Law Society of Ireland, said the narrative that Ireland had a compensation culture rife with high payouts and exaggerated claims was an attempt by insurers to drive down compensation claims to shore up their finances.
“They have very carefully ensured that any claim they see as being fraudulent or where the payout appears too high is emphasised in the media; they have used this as an excuse for why premiums are so high, but that isn’t borne out in reality,” he said.
We’re being fed this lie – and it is a lie – that damages are the main driver of premiums, when quite simply they aren’t.”
Nevertheless, Insurance Ireland CEO Kevin Thompson, whose organisation represents the vast majority of insurers active in the local market, maintained that increased payouts and claims for minor soft-tissue injuries were the main reason for higher costs for customers.
The makings of a crisis
After bottoming out in early 2008, motor insurance prices began their steady climb, almost doubling by mid-2016 before easing around one-third, according to figures from the CSO. Prices are still 48% higher now than at their lowest point just over a decade ago.
While there is no official data on costs for insurance in other areas – such as public or employer’s liability costs for businesses – indigenous firms have for years complained about the rising costs of insurance or, in some cases, difficulty in getting cover altogether.
The crunch in the insurance industry was exemplified recently with the withdrawal of Leisure Insure from the Irish market, leading to concerns that firms in the adventure sector would go to the wall due to higher premiums or their inability to get insurance.
Peter Boland from the Alliance for Insurance Reform, a group made up of various business and voluntary organisations, said it was clear to everyone with an interest in insurance that there was a crisis – but the absence of clear information meant that it was hard to diagnose the cause.
Everything that you’re getting is based on assumptions, and the vast majority of them aren’t backable.”
Compensation culture
With the rapid rise in insurance premiums has come intense pressure on the government from businesses and the public to help put a lid on prices, accompanied by growing anger about spurious claims and seemingly absurd payouts in the courts.
Fine Gael TD Maria Bailey – and her now-infamous fall from a swing at Dublin’s trendy The Dean hotel – became a lightning rod for public angst over high insurance costs and the belief that these were being fed by ridiculous claims.
That, coupled with reports of fraudulent cases being thrown out by judges, led to the common lament that Ireland’s compensation culture had been allowed to run riot.
In May, Minister of State Michael D’Arcy, who has been charged with overseeing insurance reform, complained to the Dáil that “the high level of awards here and the easy money to be made … have given rise to an attitude where people will try to get what they can”.
Business Minister Heather Humphreys was singing from the same hymn sheet a day earlier when she said many firms felt they were “being punished for this compensation culture” of fraudulent or exaggerated claims.
Insurers have put the rate of fraudulent or exaggerated claims in Ireland at around 20% – around half of which they said were caught – a staggeringly large figure which the industry has suggested is responsible for adding €50 to the cost of the average insurance policy.
However Sinn Féin finance spokesman Pearse Doherty punched a sizeable hole in those numbers earlier this year when he highlighted data that showed just 19 cases of suspected insurance fraud had been reported to gardaí in the six months from October.
That would represent a minuscule share of the more than 200,000 motor and liability claims insurers handle every year.
Doherty told Noteworthy that he agreed some insurance cases awards were too high, but the idea that the system was awash with fraudulent claims was a myth that the industry had carefully cultivated.
There is no such thing as an exaggerated claim, it’s industry-speak. An exaggerated claim, as confirmed by the gardaí, is a fraudulent claim … and insurers have a duty to report those fraudulent claims,” he said.
Insurance Ireland’s Thompson said that one-fifth of claims raised some kind of ‘red flag’ as potentially fraudulent or exaggerated.
Of this share, some would be rejected outright, while others would be negotiated based on what insurers thought was a fair offer, he said. Only in “extreme” cases, when insurers could gather enough evidence, was the file typically passed on to An Garda Síochána.
The government-established Personal Injuries Commission, chaired by former High Court president Nicholas Kearns, declared in 2017 that “exaggerated and fraudulent claims contribute significantly to driving up insurance costs”, however its reports did not cite the reason for the conclusion.
A separate 2017 report from the Cost of Insurance Working Group, made up of staff from various State agencies and departments, noted fraud was not one of the main reasons why motor insurance costs had increased so much over the last 12 months.
A follow-up report noted there was no official data to indicate that insurance fraud was widespread.
Clusters
Nevertheless, further evidence that some people may be exploiting the insurance system to their benefit has been highlighted in the existence of geographic ‘clusters’ of claims.
Minister of State D’Arcy raised the issue in an interview in December, when he told the Sunday Independent that there were local issues that meant some areas had bigger problems than others with a compensation culture.
According to an analysis of figures from the Personal Injuries Assessment Board (PIAB), the State agency set up to handle personal injury cases, and local authorities, there are significant clusters of claims in parts of the country.
Adjusted for population, Limerick residents were the most likely to receive an award from PIAB over a 10-year period, followed by people based in Longford and Louth.
Limerick residents were more than three times as likely to receive an award than those living in Kilkenny, which had the lowest number of awards per capita.
Similarly, Limerick City and County Council had the highest number of compensation claims by head of population after Dublin City Council over an extended period.
The Dublin figure is likely skewed by the large number of visitors and workers in the capital’s city centre. Longford County Council had the fourth-highest per-person share, behind Waterford City & County Council.
What is not clear, however, is the reason for the disparities – and the extent to which they indicate a compensation culture running rampant in some parts of the country.
Speaking with Noteworthy, D’Arcy said the claim clusters were a cause for concern, although his information had been based on anecdotal feedback from the industry.
If there are clusters, it would suggest that there are people who are gaming the system. And that’s not acceptable, it’s not acceptable because it does damage, it’s closing businesses,” he said.
Whiplash
Since it first met in early 2017, a key focus of the Personal Injuries Commission has been on the incidence and levels of soft-tissue awards – commonly referred to as whiplash claims.
The commission handed down one of its headline findings last year, when a benchmarking exercise revealed that general damages for whiplash injuries were more than four times higher here than in England and Wales.
Average claims involving these injuries were worth €19,862 in Ireland between 2015 and 2017, compared to just €3,798 in the UK for the same period.
The level of these claims in Ireland are ultimately set by the courts, the payouts from which in turn feed into the Book of Quantum, which PIAB refers to when assessing its own awards.
D’Arcy has said the “single most essential challenge” to be overcome in order to bring down insurance costs was to bring down these personal injury awards in line with those in other jurisdictions.
With that in mind, the government is rolling out a range of measures, including a judicial ‘recalibration’ of compensation guidelines, although D’Arcy has sought assurances from the insurance industry that lower payments will also lead to lower premiums.
Claim costs
But there is little evidence that more frequent or higher personal injury payouts are behind the huge increases in insurance costs in recent years – and, in fact, the available evidence points to the fact that overall claim payouts have already been trending down.
In 2013, some 8,131 personal injury awards were either accepted after a PIAB application or decided by the courts. Last year, this figure was up to 8,351, although both figures are lower than the 8,997 awards decided in 2014.
The total value of all these awards, when medical negligence cases are excluded, was €239 million in 2018, the lowest tally for any of the past six years and 28% below the equivalent figure for 2014.
Claim numbers and payouts for cases in the circuit court – where many soft-tissue claims are heard – have been going up, but these have been counteracted by a reduction in High Court cases and payouts, which account for the biggest share of total awards payable by insurers.
The figures run counter to general trends in the country and economy, in which major gains in employment since the recession have led to more cars on the road, people in workplaces and other factors likely to result in increased insurance claims.
The insurance working group noted in its 2017 report that the available information showed claims had only a “moderate impact” on premiums between 2013 and 2015.
That was despite both the industry and other stakeholders repeatedly pointing to increased claim frequency and costs as the primary reasons for higher premiums, according to the same group.
The black hole in all the publicly accessible data is the large number of insurance claims settled privately between insurance firms and claimants, often through their lawyers. At least 75% of all personal injury claims are thought to be decided in this way.
The majority of these are likely to begin with an application to PIAB, which has seen a steady increase in cases since it was established in 2004. The figures have, however, been largely flat since 2015 despite the pick-up in the economy.
In the absence of more comprehensive information, one of the few clear indicators of how insurance claims have been trending over time comes from insurers’ own finances.
In 2017, the most recent year for which figures are available, motor and liability claims cost insurers a net €1.31 billion, according to Insurance Ireland, whose members represent 95% of the domestic insurance market.
The total includes damage to motor vehicles as the group does not provide standalone figures for personal injury cases. The tally was down on the figure for 2016 but up on the totals for the previous five years.
Nevertheless, it was below the €1.4 billion Insurance Ireland members spent on these claims in 2009, when the firms took in 25% less in motor and liability premiums.
Meanwhile, the share of premiums paid by customers that were flowing out of insurers’ coffers again in claims peaked in 2013. That year, net motor and liability claims were worth about 82% of premiums taken in for the same sectors.
By 2017, this ratio had dropped to only 53% – meaning the firms were paying out much less in motor and liability compensation and associated costs relative to their ever-rising premium incomes.
The ratio of net claims to premiums in 2017 was the lowest for any year since 2007.
Back in the black
In recent years, insurers have returned to profit after posting combined losses through the late recession and on into the recovery period.
In 2017, Insurance Ireland members posted an estimated profit of €227 million, up from just €16 million in 2016 and a loss of €216 million a year earlier.
This has led to suggestions from Doherty and others that profit-taking, not claims, was the main reason behind high insurance costs.
However, the recent profits are slender compared to the €1 billion-plus profits the firms recorded in the boom years.
Thompson said firms posting losses was in “nobody’s interest” as ultimately the industry needed to be sustainable to serve its customers, although he disputed claims that excessive profits were being extracted by the industry.
Why then are we seeing insurers particularly international insurers withdraw from the marketplace? Nobody is going to withdraw from a super-profitable market. That, commercially, just does not make sense,” he said.
Nevertheless, with claim payouts little changed over more than a decade, the reason for insurers’ lack of profitability lies elsewhere in their balance sheets – and in the long fallout from the global finance industry’s collective meltdown in the late 2000s.
Throughout the years from 2005 to 2010, insurers paid around 6% of the motor and liability premiums they received from customers back out in reinsurance costs – essentially insurance taken out by the insurer itself to protect against the risks of future claims.
By 2015 that cost had exploded to more than 35% of premiums, leaving insurers with much less money left over from every policy they wrote for the sectors.
Similarly, the collapse in investment returns – particularly for perceived safe investments like bonds – following the global financial meltdown stripped hundreds of millions of euro from insurers’ bottom lines.
Firms are required to hold billions in so-called ‘technical reserves’ for their non-life insurance business to protect them from a raft of future claims. This money also provides an investment return for the business.
In 2017, the investment income on these funds from Insurance Ireland members’ non-life business was just over €100 million – compared to €380 million a decade earlier.
The government’s insurance working group identified this as one of the key reasons for the deterioration in firms’ profitability.
It found the main drivers of increased premiums were underpricing in earlier years, particularly between 2010 and 2014, the costs of keeping large reserves of funds to cover future payouts, and increased claims.
However it added that the available data only suggested claims had a “moderate impact” on prices during the period its figures covered, from 2013 to 2015.
Doherty said the real issue that had led to high insurance premiums was firms with major holes in their finances due to bad investments, and these holes had been filled with “extraordinary” increases in motor and public liability premiums.
Thompson said increased reinsurance costs were an indicator of higher risk in the market.
He added that this risk was being fuelled by insurers anticipating the growing personal injury claims they were likely to receive on current policies in three or more years’ time.
He pointed to industry figures which predicted the average ultimate cost per policy for smaller injury claims had increased 41% between 2011 and 2016.
“The main problem in the marketplace is in soft-tissue claims, and the volume and average payments for those claims have gone up.”
The bottom line for customers
Despite the data suggesting reducing whiplash awards and cracking down on fraud will have little overall impact on prices as these make up a relatively small component of total payouts, any cuts in awards should eventually feed into some premium reductions – as long as the savings are passed on to policyholders.
Boland, from the Alliance for Insurance Reform, said businesses believed both insurance awards and claim numbers, particularly for what he referred to as “paracetamol injuries”, were too high.
But he added there was no evidence of increases in these areas that justified the huge premium rises since 2014.
When eventually reform gets over the line, what’s the benefit to the policyholders – what percentage are we going to see premiums reduced? We want to see the numbers,” he said.
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Increase taxes in order to meet global warming target?
What am I missing here?
@Daniel Dudek Corrigan: The idea is that people will look to use less fuel and electricity in order to keep they’re bills down. It is supposed to encourage people to only use what they need to and not be wasteful.
@Daniel Dudek Corrigan: the elephant in the room: Ireland is legally bound to reduce carbon emissions by a certain percentage and we are way behind the target and fines/purchase of carbon credits will be required.
@Darren Byrne: but ends up hurting people who need to commute to work the most. They should be building renewable energy sources and move away from burning peat (arguably one of the dirtiest ways of producing electricity) instead of constantly increasing taxes for everything. It doesn’t work and hurts people on low incomes
@Darren Byrne: We are already using only what we need to as we pay among the highest prices in europe for electricity and gas, no alternatives,so what are we to do…..freeze,as cutting down is not an option so cutting out is the alternative,crazy tax on necessities.
@Myles Collier: The taxes being charged are being used to fund grants for developing renewables such as wind.
People may start considering things like carpooling or public transport as the cost goes up therefore helping to reduce emissions.
We switched to an electric car because of the savings it could over and it has dramatically reduced our carbon footprint
@Myles Collier: carbon taxes actually have been shown to work at reducing emissions in some jurisdictions, so they will be brought In here too, it’s only a matter of time.
@Myles Collier: Agreed, and I wouldn’t mind these hikes if the money raised on the carbon taxes all actually went into building said renewable sources.
@Myles Collier: 1. They are building renewable energy sources and have more planned if people would stop blocking the planning permissions. 2. They are moving away from peat burning and mixing it with biomass but it takes time to build up the biomass while retaining the employment at the same time. 3. Where is it shown that it doesn’t work? 4. Agreed, it will hurt people on low and all incomes if they don’t reduce energy consumption.
@James Wallace: absolutely it has shown to reduce emissions but it has also shown to be damaging to people on low incomes. It’s a solution the effects of which are felt more by poorer families
@Markonline: apologies I meant it doesn’t work for low income families, I can see how that is not clear. I’m glad they are moving away from biomass because it produces a lot of c02 when you burn peat but also the bog is a natural carbon sink and digging them up means they wont replenish for thousands if not millions of years
@Myles Collier: FG hate the poor & the working classes, didn’t you know this?
@Daniel Dudek Corrigan: seeing people driving just 200 meters to bring their child to school and /or to childcare and back again at home, instead of walking, I understand that taxes are not high enough unfortunately.
@Darren Byrne: ahh, the same reason they’re increasing the price of alcohol?
@Daniel Dudek Corrigan: Tax (money)
@Darren Byrne: Darren it’s a 100 mile round trip for me to go to work it’s not going to get any less if diesel goes up.
@Darren Byrne: Its still too expensive for a new electric car and id be afraid to buy a second hand one I know two people that were hit with nearly €7000 bill to replace the batteries when they bought a second hand electric car, I can barely afford petrol after my rent so for me its going to hit hard when fuel goes up, im not putting electric cars down at all if I could afford a new one I would buy one
@Mac Dara Powell: “Darren it’s a 100 mile round trip for me to go to work it’s not going to get any less if diesel goes up.”
It’s not, though the intent is presumably that you’d switch to some other mode of transport. Right now a 40kWh electric vehicle would be fine for such a 160km roundtrip, and you’re likely only talking €2-2.50 to recharge at home (night-rate metre) versus, what €10+ diesel?
@Daniel Dudek Corrigan: So you pay taxes or freeze to death
@Thomas McGuire: but dont forget to factor in any increase in electricity prices will ALSO push up the cost of running your electric car !!
@Darren Byrne: contributing to super profits of the energy companies who produce it…. wake up
@Patrick Mulligan: the hope is that those who can afford to switch will thus brining down the emissions and the need to keep increasing the tax to pay the fine. The more who switch the decent second hand ones will be available
@Daniel Dudek Corrigan: The Government should contribute to Climate change out of the excise duty paid in the price of diesel why should the hard working people. trying to make end meet have less cash for their hard earned wagee
@Geraldine Fenton: Pretty much all they are doing instead of providing solutions is to create more taxes to pay for the fines
@Markonline: solution : shoot the elephant in the room. We should not have signed up to anything.
@Eric Davies: Scale of difference won’t radically alter. Besides, this further incentivises solar panels installation at home, which your electric vehicle can (partially) charge with
So all these new “green energy” initiatives will be tax free right?
Reducing emmissions by charging people more to use them is not a smart or good plan and will not work if the goal is to actually reduce emmissions.
Providing non-carbon alternatives is the only thing the will reduce carbon usage and in turn emmissions.
How about cutting the subsidies to the biggest polluters in our society and globally.
How about subsidies to average citizens to upgradde their homes with green iniciatives.
There are smarter and more logical ways our government should approach this, but I suppose that’s too much to expect. they’ll go with the usual plan of do nothing except take more money from your pocket
@Darren Byrne: as it stands, if people use less fuel etc the poorest will end up cold and hungry. Some countries “trade off” with countries that have low energy emissions as in the Third World countries. It is an “artificial” tax that will not be effective. The energy efficient person will equally taxed with the energy inefficient person.
@Darren Byrne: And yet we still use coal fired power stations owned by the state Moneypoint in Clare on it’s own produces 20% of the country’s CO2 emissions!!!
Address the problem and don’t use this as an excuse to increase taxes.
@Dwayne Jordan: it is a proven way to address the problem. If forces people to be less wasteful so as not have to pay too much. if everyone could drop 1.5 tonnes from their emissions we’d hit target. Personally my wife and I have reduced our emissions by getting an electric car, one of the main reasons for doing this was the huge cost saving it could provide.
@Darren Byrne: but won’t your electricity bill go up too? your not using fossil fuel but your using electricity. if your electricity comes from wind power maybe you won’t be hit as bad but doesn’t most of our electricity here come from oil?
@Darren Byrne: Sure all its going to do is push up the prices of busses, taxis and trains etc. Then because trucks will be paying more for transporting goods, the price of food will go up..
@Darren Byrne: How proven? Our electricity is among the most expensive in Europe, so is our fuel. So we should already be among the best in Europe already by that logic right?
@Darren Byrne: BS not where there aren’t alternatives. You don’t think 1.35 plus diesel prices won’t put people off. And why did you get a car and not use public transport
@Dean Anderson: yes the electricity will go up but generation of electricity even from fossil fuels is a much more efficient use and results in less emissions. Also we’re up to 23% electricity from renewables. I’m with Airtricity who supply all their customers needs with renewable.
As for the bill because we got the car we switch to a night meter. Car charges at night along with running the washing machine and dishwasher at night. The bill has not gone up.
@Bilbo Baggins: yes but when compared to average wages its relatively low. Bulgaria may pay about 48% of the price we do but their average wage is less than 20% of ours.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/news/themes-in-the-spotlight/energy-prices-2017
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
@ed w: I do use public transport but my wife’s job is not anywhere near public transport. As I said it all comes down to having a good enough reason, running an electric car in to work for myself would be about as cheap as public transport but the cost of buying another one is off putting so I wont do it.
@Darren Byrne: adding taxes is not a proven way to reduce it. If it was, the carbon tax wouldn’t be going up all the time because we are not meeting our targets. Just think about it !
@Darren Byrne: methinks Darren works in PR
@Darren Byrne: And yet using your example, of Bulgaria using their numbers they comparatively pay 2 1/2 times more for their electricity compared to their average wage. Yet they use only 14% less energy than us per head of capita, given our latitude difference you could knock another few % off that. Are you willing to pay double for electricity for a 10% reduction in usage?
@Bilbo Baggins: if we had 14 percent reduction we wouldn’t be talking about the need for such dramatic hikes.
@Darren Byrne: Haha you’ve completely ignored my point.
@Darren Byrne: Bulgaria’s economic output is about half of ours (with 51% more people )… And still only 14% less energy … They’ve also had about an hour’s more daylight today. …
@Darren Byrne: ah ok, fair enough so
@Darren Byrne: I’m with Airtricity and my electric bill is higher than Electric Ireland. It’s all greenwashing. We have only one network and a fixed generating capacity.
@Bilbo Baggins: every bit more daylight they get in the winter we get that more than them in the summer, your point? I used Bulgaria to prove that our electricity prices are not that high relative to others
You have somehow conflated higher gdp with higher emissions which if true would leave China economy departing that of Europe but it doesn’t
@John Moylan: I rang them a week ago and got an 18 precent discount. All suppliers feed in to the network. They then buy or sell to meet customers needs. Airtricity put more in to the network then sell thus suppling all their customers needs from renewables.
@Dean Anderson: night meters can be good for the environment their the carrot to the tax man’s stick.
@Darren Byrne: People tend not to need that bit more daylight we have in the summer at 4am. And if you can’t equate economic output to energy usage and balance that with population I don’t have the time to explain I’m afraid , Apologies Darren I thought given you began with a comparison on the basis of metrics that you might understand. Waste at the consumer level is not controlled by tax, that’s an archane concept. That will only lower economic activity as it gives people less to spend everywhere else. We need incentive and innovation. The stick again and again has been shown to be far less effective than the carrot.
@Darren Byrne: we would love an electric car but can’t afford one. Can’t afford a replacement car of any type. What this will do is make the poor of the country turn off heating when they should have it on, this will lead to people, especially the elderly dying from hypothermia in their own homes. It happened in the UK and it will happen here.
@Darren Byrne: im with airtricity too ,have been for a good number of years – so im using renewable electricity -yet my bills and tariffs have just gone up again by almost 12% -plus pso levy and vat — so much for ‘renewables’ saving money eh !
@Dean Anderson: Electricity is still being generated by burning fossil fuels so who is Varadkar kidding?
MORE MONEY FOR THE BIG BOYS AND THERE PENSION????????
@Pauline Fedigan: Ireland pays massively over the odds in comparison to India and China for emission violations and the government feeds us more diatribe and taxes
We should put on an extra vest to help out Leo !
If the government were serious about carbon reduction there would be no road tax or VRT on electric vehicles.
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: there’s huge promotions on them at the moment check up the Nissan Leaf offers their doing them for taxi drivers and everyone
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: There is no VRT on moderately priced electric vehicles under 37000 (excluding VRT) and those over get a 5000 reduction. Also road tax is only 120 euro.
@Darren Byrne: “Also road tax is only 120 euro”
Road tax on the average car in Portugal is €35 a year.. There’s no only about it, We have been conditioned to accept being ripped off.
@Rob Cahill: Where are you getting your figure from. From what I can see there’s a bit of calculation required for anything registered first time in Portugal after 2007 but some are worked out
Car diesel 2008 with 1461cm3 and 109g / km CO2: € 58.04 + € 59.33 * € 1.05 + € 10.07 = € 128.49
Gasoline car 2015 with 1199cm3 and 130g / km CO2: € 28.92 + € 88.90 * 1,15 = € 135.49
2018 diesel car with 1598cm3 and 99g / km CO2: 58,04 € + 59,33 € * 1,15 + 10,07 € = 145,05 €
Car petrol 2017 with 2997cm3 and 207g / km CO2: € 396.86 + € 193.08 + € 28.92 * 1.15 = € 711.69
Now considering they’re wages are about a third of ours these seem comparable. Also Portugal have their own VRT.
https://impostosobreveiculos.info/iuc/imposto-unico-circulacao-iuc-2018/#principal
@Darren Byrne: “There is no VRT on moderately priced electric vehicles under 37000 (excluding VRT)” Moderately priced :) :) , im falling off my chair
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: what fuel is used to power the electricity power stations ?
Water ?
@Quentin Moriarty: Well yes. :) Hydroelectric provides some power, as does wind, peat, gas etc. It’s a fuel mix. You can view it here on the eirgrid dashboard.
http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/
It also is many times more efficient to produce electricity in a large power plant, than it is in a car/van, even if assuming all fossil fuels. Less emissions, less heat waste etc.
Good question though, and it really shows that there has been no information initiative to inform people about this. Some education is clearly needed.
@Declan Gowran: the Renault Zoe is only 23000, they are moderately prices compared to other EV’s like a Tesla or iPace. when these vehicles can save you thousands a year they can be a great saving.
@Jane Bresnan: I would agree more education is needed but how do you get anyone to pay attention, they simply don’t want to learn.
@Darren Byrne: yeah 280 for my 2.0 litre diesel, electric vehicles should be 0.
@Quentin Moriarty: What’s your point? I said carbon reduction not elimination.
@Jane Bresnan: hence the idea to now charge the use of the charging stations as it is not sustainable
@Sorcha Ní Shúilleabháin: look to methane from cows mouths and the airline industry before anything else any do not want an electric car for practical reasons and others cannot afford them but they have to take the hits
Green Party under Gormley were blown out of the water for their emission reduction policies
FG should thread carefully on this one
@Quentin Moriarty: Don’t really understand your point there? What’s not sustainable, public chargers?
The majority of EV drivers charge at home or at work. Ireland is a fairly small country. A lot of EVs , especially the newer ones, don’t need a charging infrastructure at all. We have 2 EVs in our family, have been driving EV for 4 years. We used the public infrastructure 3 times last year, no use of it this year.
@Rob Cahill: If FG/FF say that you have to pay more, then you have to pay more. There is no choice. So just shut up and do as you’re told
@Darren Byrne: can I ask where the figures plus calculation methods for those numbers came from ? I find those totals excessive .
We only have one tax over vehicles ( imposto único -IUC ) .
@Isabel Oliveira: more hogwash to push an agenda
The Poles pay through their fuel and it covers the most sensible idea that a polluter pays
Why should an old dear driving 59 miles a week pay the same motor tax as a person driving 350 Miles a week ?
Public transport and EV are not an option for many in rural areas yet it is they who get it up the wazoo
@Quentin Moriarty: Should have a catalytic converter shoved up the cows ass.
@Isabel Oliveira: it was a Portuguese website I gave the link.
@Stephen Devlin: methane comes out its mouth
Vegetarians/vegans at the least argue that the desire for meat is affecting global emissions negatively
@Darren Byrne: ” Only 23000″ are for fkin real? That’s beyond the reach of 70% of the population. It’s a fkin pipedream. You blueshirts haven’t a clue.
@Darren Byrne: oh -only 37,000 – i’ll go and get a couple in the morning so !!! for someone like myself who is disabled 37,000 is equivalent to a total of 3 years money — maybe we could stop eating , wearing clothes , getting our medication ,lose our home – tell you what we could just go away and die – that way we wont need to heat our homes ,cook our food and use the precious carbon -that will leave more for the tds to use in their limos and jaunts around the world .
Perhaps Leo, those that get up at 6am and are at their wits end with charges, taxes, school fees, health insurance etc, etc, etc. Could get some REAL help in upgrading to solar power.
It beyond annoys me to see, state of the art, energy systems installed, for free on those free houses for ‘ethnic minorities’. While we struggle to pay bills and save.
Solar power is completely beyond my means and I’ve been working for 20+ years, never a day on the scratcher!! Never missed a mortgage payment!
@angryDuck: Smaller Cars for your politicans
@Geraldine Fenton: Electric for all politicians. None should be driven around in S class Mercedes. Only allowing them claim mileage on electric vehicles would be a big step and also cut expenses as they’re cheaper to run.
@Darren Byrne:
I never could afford a car even before I retired from employment . , always use public transport , use as little electricity and gas as I possibly can, because its so expensive. . I don’t watch TV because I cant afford to pay for channels . I have the same footwear and clothes for years. So why should I pay for rich politicians who swan around in big cars and fly airplanes around the Country to attend a meeting . Not to mention all the Globe trotting they also do. Have a pain in my Axs listening to how I need to cut down . and save the planet , from the leeches that run this Country more like
@Ava Stapleton: Well said. You are not the only one sick of being bled dry by those leeches and their political parties.
@Ava Stapleton: you’re not the only one Ava. I don’t have TV, eat salads 5 days a week so I don’t have to use electricity to cook and go to bed around 6pm in winter so I don’t have to use the central heating. Don’t have a car either
I honestly don’t think people are putting fuel in their cars for the fun of it. I’m not going to drive any less, as my journey to work isn’t going to shrink overnight. Saying that, my commute gets longer and longer due to all the traffic conjestion.
Give it to you with one hand and take it away with the other!
@Mark Byrne: Exactly, Leo announces that middle earners will have 60 euro more in their wage packets after 5 years if they re elect him,that was Monday. On Tuesday he announces 3000 a year carbon tax, see where this is going…
@Honeybee: 71 dollars a barrel of oil. Government will make a fortune
@Mark Byrne: except they have given us f all in the first place -just take take take !
Omg…what is he saying??? We hv to stop useing these products to save the planet Leo wake up and sort it out..taxing emissions is not the answer
In other words one pays more taxes so that the government buys carbon credits and emmissions remain the same . How is that helping the environment?
Of course, how else will Leo get back the tax lost by increasing the lower band of income tax. Give with one hand, and take with the other.
@Do the Bort man: AND pay for the perennial social welfare recipients
Carbon tax- what a racket. Climate change is just pc nonsense.
@Mike Conway: No it’s not, but thinking you can ax your way out of a problem is something our FFG leaders have pushed at us for too long.. Time to try someone else.
@Mike Conway: are you a climate scientist? The vast majority of them say it’s real. Do you know better?
@James Wallace: maybe thats because if it were to be shown that it is all a con – they would be out of work !!
Get rid of the Blueshirts
@Irish Spider-Man:
Why, are white shirts more eco friendly??
No problem to u varadker but the rest of us workers are struggling to put food on the table after all of ur taxes rammed down our throats, get stuffed
@Patti o furniture: “Home James”-”Yes Mr Varadkar”
@Patti o furniture: Have you not heard there is a recovery going on and we are almost at zero unemployment. Things are looking great now oooops.
Looks like we need a new Taoiseach…..They tax me for own a house.. they tax me for going to work to pay for the hose and now they want to tax me for wanting to heat it…. they can fcuk right off
@Paul Murphy: Get our of European Union join Briton
@Paul Murphy: if you were getting a free house it would come with state of the art solar installed. As a taxpayer, Leo will just press you harder to the grind stone.
@Geraldine Fenton: Bad and all as we are Britain is going to be worse! We can always screw the EU for a bailout down the road again!
@Paul Murphy: Europe will eventually no longer in a position to fine UK for excessive emission so they will be grand
@Paul Murphy: screw the EU for a bailout? You are aware your great grandchildren will probably still be paying for the last bailout we got
@David Daly:, very true. My yet to be conceived grandchildren are already in debt to the EU, all so German banks and pension funds where not hit.
Thank god that energy consuming apple data centre is not going ahead in Athenry!
@angryDuck: Why? We would have made a small fortune off them :-)
@Gavin Conran: not a chance, domestic consumers would end up paying carbon taxes for their electricity usage.
Ask yourself have you seen any benefits to the renewable levies on your electricity bill. Not one, we are just helping the owners of these wind farms amass wealth.
@angryDuck: Fair point
@angryDuck:
Was that the apple data centre that committed to using only renewable energy in their planning application?
@Patrick Nolan: yeah, that was in the PR releases alright. Pure BS tho, considering they were due to consume, into double figures percentages, of the entire nations consumption.
I’ll still have to drive to work as there is no public transport system that will get me from Rathangan in Kildare to Dublin city centre for 6.30 am for WORK. You know? That thing the squeezed middle do to pay for everything and yet receive the least.
@OpenMinded: if FG really give a crap about the workers in this country, they would introduce a 3rd tax band for those that can afford to pay more and tax static wealth along with reducing tax for middle income earners. Tax land hoarding etc etc.
FG are the party of the very rich, alway were always will be.
@angryDuck: the rich pay almost 50% income tax. They need a middle tax bracket for the middle income earners.
Carbon tax but I am made of carbon
@Graham Light: existance tax coming soon
We should do what the French and doing at the moment and get out and march in our thousands. Leo and his friends want us ro pay the fines without finding a solution. What about a 2000 wind turbine farm off the coast of Donegal. Do away with all taxes on electric cars. Real grants to upgrade your house with solar and heat pumps.
This tax has the fear factor for politicians, that is why Leo wants crossparty agreement to stay off public resentment/anger/protest similar to the water charges so when they come knocking from whatever party that supports this extortion, let them know, every BIG TAX hurts.
Why can’t a government for once correctly manage the taxes they collect instead of inventing new taxes to cover up their never ending shortcomings.
@Jim Moran: that would be way too ambitious
I’ve asked this before, where is the transparency for where these carbon taxes are spent. Sure people will be more careful about how much fuel they use, but the tax itself should be used to introduce measure to reduce the over-all carbon footprint too. Also, with all this talk of climate change, increased taxation to tackle it, etc., where is the plan for reforestation????
This is madness – many struggle to heat their homes as it is. Tax on essential activities will not solve climate problems. I drive to work, I’d happily use public transport except it would mean two hours extra a day commuting and is more expensive than driving. Make public transport efficient and inexpensive – this will get cars off the road. Change our electricity generation to renewables – that will also reduce emissions. Our government needs to act – not keep returning to punishing the public. Industry and agriculture are the largest source of carbon emissions – target them if needs be.
“The Citizens’ Assembly was told during its sessions on climate change that Ireland would need to introduce a carbon tax as high as €70 on coal, turf and other products to improve emissions targets.”
Paying more make emissions go down ??
@Rob Cahill: How about a bottle of spring water from the springs of Italy?
(Not brought here by foot courier but enjoyed by green fans none the less)
Why don’t we all just walk and cycle and live and work in the dark and cook over a fire and
What makes verruca think that he will in power in a few years time,
Fuel taxes are going down well in France at the moment,
Government : will slap on some taxes to pretend we are doing something. But won’t provide any meaningful alternatives (esp public transport ) because we can’t be bothered. The we will blame the people for not changing.
Spineless Pathetic bunch politicians
@ed w: sure one should be able to cycle/bus from Lenane to Salthill for work, DAILY ?
@Quentin Moriarty: why not first train into sligo gets in at 11am buses don’t run in the nw to get people to school or work. Have to use the car
@ed w: that’s my point. Can’t be done.
Forget the rural dwellers and the need for a car
You have to laugh, the government increasing carbon taxes when they can expense getting to and from work so never have to worry about rising fuel costs.
so they are putting plans in motion to try and screw us again
Where are families supposed to find this extra money? What with the family home tax and soon to be water charges, not to mention the wealth of stealth taxes that insure we are forever paying for services that don’t exist. All this will insure is people will go cold. God help us all.
Carbon has nothing to do with warming and they know it! this is just robbery! and we are cooling not warming and it has everything to do with the sun. this is just pure BS i want my money back thanks.
Yes because our country of less that 5 million people causes so much pollution. We need to forget the idea of engjoying a higher standard of living to save the world…. Meanwhile in america Trump simply tell the world to f**k off with the targets and continues to cause more pollution in a year than we probably would in a hundred.
@Jordan Osullivan: *enjoying*
For every breath you take soon this government will tax you .
Any word about extra carbon tax onto farmers? Since farming in Ireland is by far the largest contributor to co2 emissions they need to be taxed accordingly
How will more taxes make my house easier to heat? We already use the bare minimum fuel on account of the cost. And if I buy a roll of insulation or new boiler, the government charges me 23% vat. Is a warm home to be the new luxury – only for the rich.
Think what happened with taxing water
@Thomas Sheridan: yep, it’s all about wealth transfer, for this to work efficiently, FG must ensure that you are always just scraping by.
Note: due to insane rents and housing costs, you children, nó matter how well educated, will be rent slaves to those that own all the houses.
Where is all this money supposed to come from… The price of everything is so out of sync with the living wage. Working to feed the system and nothing more. Still feels like austerity regardless of what RTE and FFG say.
Ah yes, the old carbon tax scam that keeps on taking, and the willing simpletons that cheer it on and cheer on fake billing companies.
Clearly the targets were set too high.
Arrr….Get rid of LeoVaradblueshirt and give us all free houses with solar panels and a free electric car, cut all taxes… Yeeasrrrrr… Will definitely sort #Fakenews climate change!
@Dotty Dunleary: meanwhile 50 percent of electrical goods can be repaired yet they are dumped and sent to our friends in Africa who will burn with impunity to remove the copper and precious metals
Farcical beyond belief and the focus is now on EVs
Balloon transportation in 10 years to be proposed
Nice to see my expensive to fit carbon neutral air to water heat pump will cost me a hell of a lot more to run once this hike comes in with increases to electricity.
Tax the producers of the worst levels…. how can you tax citizens when there is little or no alternative….. greedy opportunists this government
A small little Island like Ireland excepting being the blame for climate change is a laugh.
Can people not wake up the fact people like in the green party are making a nice living off this climate change hype.
This country is rife with elected parasite.
So how does a carbon tax in Ireland, banning straws in EU and other BS stop the likes of Indonesia from dumping their rubbish into the ocean, or the likes of India/China from burning ridiculous amounts of coal?
More taxes on more taxes Restaurant owners in Jan must add on 4.5% on food coffee etc more cost.
If this Goverment keeps it up with stealth taxes they are going to fall a long way..
Carbon taxes like the sugar tax does not work but only give the bigger tax at end if year a joke.. also in 2030 or there avours you won’t be able to use fossil fuel in your home and that could mean serious tax on heating your home..
Any word on all the coal being brought down from the north with no carbon tax paid or VAT at all? Increasing carbon tax is bound to happen but it will encourage people more to dabble in this grey area and there doesn’t seem to be a thing done about it here by revenue. Disclaimer : I am in the fuel business.
pity they can’t use all that damn money for tolls collected on roads that have been bought and paid for
@Jessie Ginger:
The previous FF donkey government under Mr Dempsey didn’t copper fasten the whole toll farce and it is not in total governmental control
Is it any wonder the UK is getting out
It’s only the millionaires will be able to live in ireland comfortably after a few more years
How can you possibly tax petrol more. It’s a necessity not a luxury.
Is the money being used to invest in renewable energy?
In the meantime the rest of the world powers couldn’t give 2 f*+k .. and the Irish taxpayer cops it up
The
Arse
As
Usual!
Multiple governments have known this target was on the horizon and dug their heads in the sand. The lack of foresight is shocking added to back tracking on incentives for EV’s in the budget shows that climate change is not on our agenda. Our kids will pay for generations as a consequence
@DC: I’m also involved in promoting a carbon reduction product for the dairy industry and yet some co-op’s shrug their shoulders and say it’s not their problem.
If they were serious, they would fund everyone who wanted to insulate their home (not just lower incomes). You have to spend a fortune to get any grant. I have no choice but to buy fuel to get to work or to heat my home. I would love to buy a more efficient car or use less heating, but I can’t, and the government just keeps taking more and more from me.
Incentivise farmers and consumers away from beef if this isn’t really just about more excuses for taxes on the 99% that is. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/21/giving-up-beef-reduce-carbon-footprint-more-than-cars
What a joke.. weres the imitative for all household renewables.. its not rocket science..
Yeah screw the punter as the politicians have their travel bills paid by us fools
Too afraid and cowardly to put it in the budget and now hiding behind the C02 levels and enforcements. Love to see how they distribute the tax levels and who and what gets hit the worse. If they want electric cars then raising electricity prices won’t encourage buyers and they can’t get public transport sorted either Leo your an Ass
All cars can have issues when bought second hand and I can understand where you’re coming from. But if people with money think they can save long term they will start to buy. This will help reduce emissions meaning less of a need to increase the tax. This will eventually lead to more decent second hand evs coming available
@Darren Byrne: darren you need a reality check…. zero competition in the car cartel in ireland…. or haven’t you noticed
@Jessie Ginger: not only that SIMI have the governments war and have made a dogs dinner of it all
They are forcing people out of cars that are NCT emissions compliant in order to line their own pockets
We now see a diesel dump from the UK coming to the Paddy shores and it will get worse thanks to the egg heads who favoured a move from diesel to petrol
Electric cars we never take off until a people carrier is available that can get you to and from where you want to go without planking it that it will die
People like me can’t afford to waste electricity or diesel, this is just a tax to screw the poor
Would it not be more socially acceptable for mega profit companies to maybe cough up an extra percent or two.
As a truck driver and midwife partner with two young children and small mortgage, and each drive 12 year old cars, need these as live in country, these carbon taxes are so financially crippling and demoralizing.
So that’s the solution to reduce emissions? Increase taxes? Or maybe they need to increase the tax to be able to pay off the fine they will receive for not meeting their targets.
have your say