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AN BORD PLEANÁLA has granted planning permission for a controversial co-living development in Dún Laoghaire, south Dublin.
There was opposition to Bartra Capital Property Group’s plans for the five-floor development, which included 208 studio dwellings with communal kitchens shared between more than 40 people.
The proposed rent for these rooms was €1,300 per month.
The plan was described as “Dickensian” and rooms were compared to bedsits as the beds will fold up into the walls to save space.
Today the company confirmed An Bord Pleanála has granted permission with a number of conditions attached.
CEO Mike Flannery said the board had recognised “that there is a place for co-living within the Irish housing market”.
“Ireland needs new models of housing to cater for changing demographics, living habits and employment patterns. Co-living is one such response to these changes.
It is a form of accommodation targeted specifically at single professionals who do not want a single room apartment and has worked well in other cities including London, New York and Vienna.
Flannery said the group will proceed with the development and implement all conditions outlined by An Bord Pleanála.
Biglolly Ltd / Vimeo
The company did not provide detail on the conditions set down by the planning body but it is likely that it will have to reduce the number of dwellings in the development.
Last month the planning body refused Barta’s application for another co-living development in Tallaght.
In its decision the board said the co-living spaces would “fail to provide an acceptable living environment”and pointed to a “notable shortfall” in the provision of sufficient communal facilities.
People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd Barrett said he was “shocked” today to hear what he described as a “disgraceful plan” had been approved.
He said these types of developments are “not about solving the housing crisis but exploiting it for profit”.
“I am utterly disgusted that this development has been given the go ahead by An Bord Pleanala,” he said,
“These box rooms with pull out beds will have zero impact on the housing crisis and will only mean more unaffordable, inadequate places to sleep for people.
Inevitably the box rooms will become modern day tenements and the only people to benefit will be the greedy developers who are only interested in exploiting the housing crisis rather than solving it.
“What we need in central Dún Laoghaire is decent quality, affordable and public homes for those currently paying extortionate rents and those on the waiting lists.”
Earlier this month Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy was criticised for suggesting co-living spaces are like “a very trendy” boutique hotel. He later acknowledged that this analogy “wasn’t a good one”.
His department has received multiple written complaints from members of the public over previous comments he made that co-living spaces are an “exciting” choice to young workers.
“I wonder if you would be willing to reside in these ‘hubs’ yourself? I doubt it very much,” one person wrote to the Minister.
Another person said Murphy’s comments are “an absolute insult to the intelligent smart generation working in our capital city”.
When asked for a comment today, Murphy’s department said: “The Minister nor the department comments on individual planning applications/decisions. The enforcement of the planning code is a matter for individual local authorities.”
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That’s not good
@Mick Hannigan: it’s a massive win for massive local tech firms where the employees they need to bring in don’t want to be sharing with 3 strangers in a 4 bed in Finglas where they’ve zero security around the house – shared bills with strangers, someone moves out, it’s on them to get someone in or lose the lease/foot the bill etc. The stress of moving country is hard enough – accommodation like this is exactly what they want until they find their feet and will further reduce the attractiveness of exploitative Airbnb abuse by landlords, letting to desperate employees.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Fair point
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Exactly well said sir
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: why do people focus so much on the negative side of stories. Your points are excellent and should really be included in such discussions for balance.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Well put – I had honestly not considered any of this.
@Mick Hannigan: if people don’t want to live there, they don’t have to.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: problem is that there will be no finding of feet or moving beyond this. This will become the last stop in future.
@Dec: people don’t want to look at the pros because they want to give credence to the parasitic views of idiots like Boyd Barrett, Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Mick “VATman” Wallace
@James Murphy: I agree with him. Dun Laoghaire does need decent public housing. Not boxes for visitors who can’t afford to spend most of their money on rent.
@pZTahAXy: Are you Mystic Meg?
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Some fair points but the price of a room is outrageously expensive.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Except the truth is that a one bed apartment should cost far less than these cowboys are charging for their glorified hostel rooms. The solution to the housing crisis is more proper self-contained units at a lower price, not glorified bedsits at prices people can’t even afford to begin with.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: The proper solution to the problem you’ve raised is to build actual proper apartments and rent them at reasonable rents that people can afford. And by proper apartments, I mean units with their own living space and kitchen space.
@Aidan: The price people are quoting related to the larger studio rooms I believe, but what folks are missing is that tonnes of staff and companies are renting 2 and 3 bed apartments to staff who are travelling over for 3/6/12 month projects. I knew a chap for whom his company had him on an international rotation programme and arranged his accommodation – they had him in a 3 bed apartment in Sandymount they’d been keeping rented for staff like this. He was a 23 year old, on his own, in a place they were paying probably 3k a month for. In future, co-living gaffes tick this box and all of a sudden, a bunch of places like the 3 bed in Sandymount get released back into the general market. Similarly, loads of Airbnb apartments are used for the same, with companies and staff desperate for anything, taking hyper expensive short term leases – but as a result, the landlords keep letting out their places to such ventures because the money is so good. Co-living isn’t a solution for everyone, but it’s absolutely a far better solution for many in Dublin right now.
@Patrick FitzGerald: The proper solution is a balance. Lots of 2 and 3 bed apartments won’t solve the problem of staff who come over on six month secondments, which may or may not be extended. They don’t need 12 month leases in traditional apartments. They’re arriving with a suitcase, maybe 2 and a laptop bag. As it stands, they’re in the apartments we want freed up for the wider market.
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: Spot on this is exactly the type of tenants these type of accommodation is aimed at ,most of the US tech giants based in Ireland employs staff mainly from outside of Ireland who would have no qualms taking up this sort of accommodation as it wouldn’t be much different to the environment that they already work in .
The fast track planning process is a disaster in the making.
There will be completely insufficient local transport & facilities for all the upcoming development that an bord pleanala is preparing to roller stamp.
We have learned nothing.
@Tom: Is that not was bus connects is all about?
@Tom: dun L is served by many bus routes and the dart
@Tom: that’s the point. These are being built in an established area with facilities and infrastructure in place. Putting people where they actually want to live , not in more bloody sprawl in north or west county Dublin !
If it’s that good a situation let all the ‘professionals’ in the Dail try it out themselves for at least a period pf 12 months . Let them share kitchens etc and see how they like it .
It smacks of tenement housing that the most improvised lived in , in the early part of 20th century , when thousands died of simple diseases
Is there anyone else who’s alarmed at the proposed rent of 1,300€ per month for effectively a folding bed and a group kitchen?
Great news. Higher density housing will increase the supply which will address demand and lower property prices to a more affordable level for the average person.
@sVRCsaSg: you’d think that wouldn’t you…
@sVRCsaSg: Nope. Bad news. Higher density accomadation will increase land value and thus drive the cost of housing up.
@Craig Clancy: I would and I do. If I’m wrong for whatever reason please let me know so I can reassess my views on this.
@Disabled Junkie: I didnt think about that. Its interesting and I’d say it will happen in the short term especially for areas zoned for these kinds of developments if the zoning is hard to obtain.
But this increases the productivity of the land and increase productivity would result in higher yields which in turn results in greater supply and reduced demand.
@Disabled Junkie: …..that economic thought lines up cleanly with the spelling. If I wanted to build accommodation for 1,000 tech immigrant employees, I now need less space for higher density living. If I need 50% less space, a 10% price increase would be beneficial to the buyer, letter, lettee and seller…
@Ciarán Ó Fallúin: I made a spelling mistake. I’ll give you that much. But no more. Never mind your “tech immigrants” as you call them. What about ordinary people trying to buy a family home? There isn’t much financial incentive for developers to build a traditional apartment block or a few houses when they could build a shared living unit that will yield much more in the way of profit.
@Disabled Junkie: currently we have lots of people living in semi-d housing in the suburbs who really couldn’t care less if they’re in a house/apartment and would likely move closer to the city if the option was available. The more of these we build in the population centres the more the suburbs are returned to families.
@Disabled Junkie: “Tech Immigrants” are ordinary people too you know.
@sVRCsaSg: you honestly think people will move from the suburbs to share a kitchen with 40+ others and into a room with a pull down bed?
@EillieEs: yes. These are new builds and they’re already sharing kitchens with strangers in house shares. As someone who shares a kip of a house (and kitchen) in the suburbs I’d gladly move into one of these.
People need to realise the reality of renting in this country isn’t currently better than these co-living spaces.
@sVRCsaSg: bartra capital are all about affordable housing.. 1300 for a bedroom with shared facilities.
@Disabled Junkie: should be cheaper to build if you don’t have to put a kitchen and bathroom in every unit.
@Barra O Brien: It should be. But already we have greedy people waffling about half the build cost somehow justifying equal or higher rent. For units that aren’t even self-contained.
@Barra O Brien: I’m assuming bartra are all about making profits by addressing the demand for housing. A happy side effect of that is that as they build more homes they’re relieving pressure on the market and reducing property prices.
@sVRCsaSg: at €1300 per month? What is the justification for such a rent? The concept of “market value” is a construct of the mind. It’s a story to justify greed. What should the market value really be for a box room with a pull up bed? It might all be true in relation to this modern functional solution for young professionals who don’t want to share with strangers…but that doesn’t explain €1300 per month. And why Dun Laoghaire out of all the Co.Councils? Because it’s already overpriced. Ready to be further milked. And we’re all buying into this product of the mind which is the “market value” rent.
@Sandra Pascoletti: market value isn’t something someone makes up in their mind it’s a reflection of supply and demand. Yes the rent is very high for these developments but you shouldn’t be shocked at that, you should be shocked that the market has reached a point where people are willing/forced to pay that. This is only a symptom.
If we had a free market for housing so a huge number of developments could be built the people asking for €1,300 for these rooms would be laughed out of it.
@sVRCsaSg: Higher density is a good idea, but we shouldn’t be allowing units without their own private kitchen or living space. We should be forcing the market to provide private accomodation with reasonable amenities, regardless of whether they could make a better profit building crappier ones.
@sVRCsaSg: Higher density shouldn’t mean no kitchen or living space. There are minimum standards we shouldn’t let out society fall below.
@sVRCsaSg: But it *should* be better. And as a democratic society, government policy should be *forcing* it to be better. Not allowing it to get worse.
@Patrick FitzGerald: Well I don’t have my own kitchen so technically the unit I rent has a shared kitchen and living space. And some people would think a semi-d with a garden is the minimum standard.
We can force the market to provide a certain level but in doing so we limit people’s choice and force them to pay more for accommodation and rent as we’re forcing them to rent facilities they may have otherwise choose to avoid.
Turned down first time and now it’s okay. Smells of corruption Ted!
Oh sweet Jaysus
They wont be happy until they have the people living in the ”coffin cubicles” normally found in Hong Kong.
Also, I’m no anthropologist but I get the feeling the gaff will be wrecked in no time with all the hair pulling, eye-gouging, kicks to the bollox, the loafing, when there’s no milk in the fridge.
@Martin Conway: who’s they?
@Martin Conway: don’t knock the pods, but then the price I spent a month there was $350. Ireland is no Hong Kong, and its robbery at €1300 a unit.
@Paul Cunningham: legalised daylight robbery.
@Paul Cunningham: I agree, it’s an enormous rip-off. In other countries there are rental loans for people who want to try living somewhere and if they buy the place, that rent paid is subtracted from the total. Here, people haven’t a hope of saving towards a place of their own.
‘Gets popcorn’
@Gav Brosnan: as long as you’re not waiting on a microwave that you share with 40 others.
@Gav Brosnan: people might complain about them ! What’s the alternative for people? Live in kip house shares or pay e1800 + for an one bed apartment, that many could never afford anyway…
@Shane Murphy: I was going to say , they should be allowed , but potentially cap the rents at something like a grand a month …
@Dave Thomas: these rooms have their own micro kitchen with kettle microwave, probably toaster etc
@Shane Murphy: doesn’t bother me, people get so bent out of shape about it, it’s hilarious
@Gav Brosnan: exactly. Don’t like them ? Don’t live in them. The laughable thing is , most people complaining about these, can’t imagine how bad the scenario is out there. That got their property when it was going for a pittance. The more choice desperate people have, the better!
@Shane Murphy: yeah, what’s a pittance in your mind?
@Shane Murphy: The alternative should be to build proper apartments and rent them out at reasonable rents for people.
Nobody will pay €1300 to stay here. The prices will come down, closer to the single HAP payment in Dún Laoghaire of €660. It will then be filled with homeless vagrants and addicts.
I lived in Jersey in Channel Islands in the 90s we all lived in this kind of accommodation. We were limited on what we could rent and house share can be a pain. This was affordable for me and at 20 ate out a lot and wasn’t cooking a dinner for a family. This was perfect for me and most of my pals who were living the same way. There was management so all communal areas were spotless.
@Mags Regan: Same here. They sound perfect for students and younger professional for a few years. When you are a student, all you need is a safe space, a comfy bed, loads of pizza shops and a short walk to the Pav.
@Paul Whitehead: what students can seriously afford this?? And how dismal for relationship prospects (at any stage or circumstance)!!!!!
@pZTahAXy: At 20, I could screw standing in a phone box. They will manage. You only need “space” after the initial infatuation wears off. And there comes a time when your partners blink is too noisy for you.
On a serious note, this gov. and successive govs. are failures. Failure everywhere- be it the health service, transport, education, housing- the list goes on and on.
Wouldn’t like to share a kitchen with 40 people. Very high chance people won’t clean up after them and it’ll turn into a kip in a short while. How many oven/hobs, etc will these kitchens have?
@Shane Fleming: Some random maths for fun – The plans that I saw have 3 hobs per kitchen shared with 40 people. (https://neasahourigan.com/post/greens-say-no-to-coliving-yes-to-cohousing/). Considering a ‘dinner time’ of about 6-9pm, that gives everyone about 13 min each to use a hob.. Assuming not everyone cooks or some share a hob – this could be closer to 30 mins each. You could just about boil a pot of spuds :)
Is everyone okay with lentils again?
This is accommodation for international students who will pay over the odds to rent there.
When the poor of Dublin had to live in tenements – was the ratio to space better or worse that this?
I lived in different in something similar in uk the only I’d say 1300 for a room so small you have to fold up the bed doesn’t sound good value
I notice they aren’t showing toilet and shower facilities!
Where do you put your dirty clothes?
How much room do you have for clothing and other items?
What if I want to watch something that no one else wants to watch? Should be a mid size TV in each room (with built-in speakers beside bed/seat).
Looks like 4 fridges? How much fridge space do you get? And what is to stop other people taking your food? When you are sharing with 3/4 others can narrow down the thief, but here you have 39 other dwellings (up to 80 people?)
While not for everyone there is certainly a place for this type of development. One size does not fit all so this should be encouraged.
I like it. Just once it’s not €50,000 a month to rent.
@Decko Kelly: it’s at least a grand they reckon. Remember when you used to be able to rent a whole apartment to yourself for that money?
@Decko Kelly: €1’300 is not good value for these. There is a market for them, but the price is fleecing those that would rent them. They would be a third of the price in any other country without an economy obsessed around property
@Dave Thomas: I remember when you could buy a house for a couple of grand too but time moves on.
@Paul Cunningham: so ye, €1300 / €50,000. Same thing really. Robbery.
@Craic_a_tower: “time moves on”, but why should it? This is a democratic society. If we decide that we’re not ok with this kind of inflation over time, we should be able to veto it. Otherwise democracy is a farce.
Brown envelope sales must be through the roof since Bord Planeanla took over power without going through local councils
Not everyone needs or wants a semi-d 3 bed house. I lived in attic rooms and basements in rathmines and Ranelagh during the 80/90’s. Great times! Cooked on a primas stove in one. Shared a jax in several. These co-living pods will suit some young people, students and young workers, for a few years.
@Paul Whitehead: Find me one person who doesn’t want their own kitchen and living room. People will only take these because price inflations means they can’t afford anywhere else. We shouldn’t be dropping standard so low that glorified tenements like these are allowed to begin with.
What a complete joke. There’s goin to be killins living in that place. Manky kitchen and jacks. People goin to be miserable.
€1300 a month is an awful lot to pay for a glorified house share.
Where is ABP accountable to the people? Who do we actually complain to about this, as a democratic society? This is the most depressing thing I’ve read here in weeks. We should have some recourse to oppose this after ABP gave the go ahead while ignoring the very obvious tide of public opinion against it,
Worse than bedsits of old. The people promoting these “living” spaces would never live in something like this. What’s happened to quality of life? Barely existing seems the best people can aspire to in Ireland….and expected to be grateful for it!!
we had bedsits in the 80s twice the size , with little ensuite and mini kitchen and they were all shut down, because of ‘;fire risk’. I thought all new builds had to meet fire regs, and assisted/disabled access ? the only one that can stop/improve this giant hostel is the fire chief or Environmental /public Health.
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