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CONCERNS HAVE BEEN raised about the length of time it takes to process teachers’ information on the Department of Education’s payroll system.
As a result, a number of teachers who are starting new roles in the upcoming academic year are unsure of when they will be paid.
Teachers who are due to start new positions must send the department appointment forms before 12 July in order to ensure they are paid in September.
However, some teachers are only offered jobs around this date, making it difficult to meet the deadline.
James*, who is due to begin a new role at a primary school in Dublin next month, has found himself in this situation.
His job interview took place in early July and he was offered the role around 12 July, leaving him unable to submit the application form on time. As a result, James said he has been told by the department he won’t be paid until October at the earliest.
James worked as a substitute teacher in a number of schools over the past three years and is not entitled to summer pay, leading him to take up work at a summer camp in recent weeks in a bid to pay rent and other bills.
He said he’ll have no income for September and possibly part of October, and is most likely going to have to take out a loan to pay his €800-per-month rent.
James is critical of the length of time it takes to process teachers’ pay, particularly if they are already registered on the department’s system – as he is. He said the situation is “absolutely unacceptable” and results in some teachers struggling to pay bills.
“I’m a registered teacher who just finished in a school in June. I have the same details, back account etc, yet it will still take them over two months to register me to be paid because I wasn’t able to get the appointment form in by 12 July,” he told TheJournal.ie.
James said he is aware of other teachers who have also had to supplement their income with a second job.
The teaching wage is not great and rent is pretty high in Dublin. I’m working a second job for the summer.
James has called for the “completely outdated” payroll process to be upgraded, and for schools to arrange to hold interviews earlier than July where possible.
20,000 appointments every year
Responding to the situation, a spokesperson said the Department of Education and Skills “appreciates the concerns raised over the timing of salary payments for teachers whose forms were not received by the payroll section until after the 12th of July”.
They said that in 2018 “almost 100% of primary teacher appointment forms received” before the July deadline were processed in time for payment the following September.
The spokesperson said staff in the department are currently processing appointment forms received before 12 July last. Once this is completed, they will “process as many appointment applications as possible received after the 12 July in time for the primary teacher pay issue dates in September”.
The spokesperson noted that the department “acts as paymaster to over 4,000 schools”, while boards of management are the direct employers of both teachers and non-teaching staff.
They added that there are a variety of teaching employment types within these schools, such as permanent whole-time, fixed term contracts, contracts of indefinite duration and also casual and non-casual substitution work.
“Prior to the start of the school year in September there are approximately 20,000 primary school teacher appointments or re-appointments to be processed.
The processing involves a number of checks and verifications before a teacher appointed by a school can be set up on the primary payroll system for payment. These checks include verification of Teaching Council registration and Garda vetting.
The spokesperson said the department has given a commitment that completed appointment forms which are received by 12 July will be processed in time for payment next month.
Appointment forms received after 12 July will continue to be accepted and dealt with in the order they are received. “Salary payment date in relation to these appointments will depend on the volume and date of receipt of late appointment applications from schools,” the spokesperson added.
‘So many issues’
James was one of the substitute teachers who had money incorrectly deducted from their wages in February of this year. Some teachers had over half of their income deducted as tax because of a fault in the department’s payroll system. The department apologised at the time and the issue was resolved. He told TheJournal.ie:
I was impacted by that too. I was a couple of weeks without pay, then heavily taxed at 50%. It was just after Christmas, the worst time for it to happen.
He is considering leaving the profession due to pay and other issues, but noted that this is easier said than done.
“I’m actively looking to get out of teaching, the wage it doesn’t cut the mustard. I know a good few people who are considering leaving. One or two have tried and come back, it’s hard when you’re trained in one area. It’s one of those things, you’re qualified to teach, what else can you do?”
James said there is rightly a focus on pay equality for teachers – entrance salaries and a range of allowances were cut for those employed after 2010 – but that “there are so many other issues, there is so much more to it”.
*James’ name has been changed to protect his identity
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Not on to have to go without pay for that length of time for admin issues
@Rich Doyle: I bet our shyster TDs don’t have a problem like this. What a basket case country we have become
@Gus Sheridan: Why in the name of God would any teacher want to move back to this kip?
@Gus Sheridan: Let’s put it in perspective. Teachers will be paid monthly in arrears. Once.
After which it will revert to weekly.
It’s not exactly Aleppo
@James Brady: Teachers aren’t paid weekly.
@James Brady: who robin
@James Brady: who robin
@James Brady: who do i get onto to be paid weekly?
It isn’t right that taxpayers money goes to private school while other schools are falling apart!
@Colette Kearns: private schools provide a service. Yes the Dept pays the teachers wages and if you were to close those schools the pupils would have to go to other schools, where the Dept would pay the teachers wages…. you see where I’m going with this?!
@Paul: Let them do that then. The issue is equity in education , fee paying schools are being subsidised when they shouldn’t be, see where I’m going with this…
@una dunphy: do the parents of these children not deserve to have some of high levels of tax they pay used on their children? That’s equality
@una dunphy: it’s the other way around. The parents who pay fees to fee paying schools are subsidising the system. If the fee paying schools became public schools (as some have in recent years), the Department of Education would have to pay all the other costs that are currently covered by fees.
@una dunphy: all schools are treated equally in terms of teachers, in that regardless of public or private schools teachers are all paid a consistent basic salary, once the admin in the article above is done. In this way every child in the state is provided with an education, as per their constitutional and legislative right.
What private schools then do is top that up based upon additional funding from parents, so they aren’t subsidised, it is the state providing a common baseline to all children.
@Vocal Outrage: that’s all very well but that doesn’t suit Karl Marx above communist manifesto!
@Paul: private schools should be entirely privately funded.
@Wheresmyjumper: yes, within the public school system. You want access to a school system with an entirely different level of resourcing then you should have to pay for it entirely yourself.
@Vocal Outrage: and wealthier parents get to elevate their child’s school to an entirely different level of resourcing built on that communal tax payer provided base. That is wrong. Taxpayers, and yes I know the wealthy are tax payers too, should fund a single education system open to all and giving all an equal opportunity. If you want a different tier of education system then pay for the entire thing yourself.
@GrahamMManning: teachers are teachers they are paid the same by the state..this is fair, if someone wants their kids to do extra things and are happy to pay for this pleasure, whats it too you?
@Wheresmyjumper: because everyone’s taxes should pay for a single tier education system. If you want to opt out of that then you should have to pay fully for that decision. Would mean far less private schools and far more of our children on a single meritocratic educational path. Ends up with less getting to where you got cos of mommy and daddies money and more cos of your own talent and hard work.
@GrahamMManning: or parents who work really hard and want to get the best they can afford for their children
@GrahamMManning: What’s wrong with helping out your kids and giving them an advantage over others? Are you just jealous because you didn’t go to a private school? The argument that if you send your child to private school you should pay for the whole lot and have no state involvement is discriminatory towards those that are willing to work harder and give their kids more.
@Wheresmyjumper: It’s an unfair system, especially with Lord Ross in control.
https://www.thejournal.ie/shane-ross-wesley-3903783-Mar2018/
@TheHeathen: the state pays the salaries of all teachers in schools, that is fair
@Paddy Cullen: Define “work harder” in the context you are using it here. Do two bank officials “work harder” than a guard and an A+E nurse?
@Paul: your argument doesn’t include the massive amount of money given in capital grants to private schools over the years.
@Seán O’Raghaillaigh: i’m sure some do alright
@Wheresmyjumper: The state paying for their new hockey pitch is unfair. Schools around the country don’t have a hall or pitch, while a private school gets 150k to resurface one of their hockey pitches, while already having “four rugby pitches, two astro-turf hockey pitches, two cricket pitches, two outdoor basketball courts, one soccer pitch, a gymnasium and a sports hall.” Astoundingly unfair and corrupt. You cannot condone the inequality of it.
@Wheresmyjumper: plenty of people work really hard. Money shouldn’t decide the education available to children. all that does is reinforce wealth and opportunities through generations disassociated from talent and hard work.
@TheHeathen: that was a grant that they applied for and unless you know of an other grant that wasn’t awarded because of this then its fair enough, also Shane Ross is a terrible person, the question here was whether the state should pay teachers wages in private schools and i think they should
@Wheresmyjumper: No the original comment was about tax payers money going to private schools while public ones fall apart.
@GrahamMManning: money decides everything, this is life
@Paddy Cullen: nothing but one of those advantages shouldn’t be being able to pay for a different tier of education system that everyone’s taxes also pay for. Not an once of jealousy just believe in people, in as much as is practical and possible, getting where they can in life based on talent and hard work not how deep mommy and daddy’s pockets are. And it’s the opposite of discriminatory. Money buying a different education system and entrenching generational wealth separate from talent and hard work (this is getting repetitive) is discriminatory.
@Wheresmyjumper: but we can mitigate it where possible, necessary and right. I believe education, given its role in rest of life outcomes, should be one such area. Everyone should, educationally, be on the same footing with talent & hard work deciding the outcome. Much as luck, timing and, unfortunately, who you know (to varying degrees) are always gonna play a role.
I know it’s tough, but a lot of people are are paid a month in arrears. So this is not really a teacher’s problem…
@EvieXVI: a month? Sure. Months? No.
@GrahamMManning: but according to the article it will be a month, Septembers pay cheque in Oct, along with the Oct pay cheque
@Vocal Outrage: it took 6 months for me to get paid, an aberration fair enough but not one that should happen. Know of 2 new teachers in my own school who got paid in November of last year having started in August.
@GrahamMManning: yeah, and I know of one girl in my place who for the 1st month when she joined got another guys pay cheque because they both had the same surname. Mistakes happen but are corrected and ‘specific cases make bad laws’
So they started in Aug, so expecting their 1st pay cheque in Sept, but delayed 2 months to Nov, but I bet that windfall of 3 months pay just before Xmas wasn’t bad either
@Vocal Outrage: easy to say when you’re not the one not getting paid for months.
@EvieXVI: this is not just a month in arrears. Starting 22 August and not paid maybe till mid October. Happens every single year.
@mr magoo: My point is that this is not a problem faced exclusively by teachers.
When I started my job (private sector), I started in the fifth of the month, so missed the first months payroll. I got paid the first two months in arrears. And I know of many people in similar situations.
@EvieXVI: but these workers haven’t been paid since June! You’re missing the point !
The main point of the article is lost in the length of the article – which is overlong. The DoES payment system is archaic, outdated, and needs to be overhauled. Speaking as s business owner employing over 100 people, and the father of a newly qualified primary school teacher, I am astonished at the uncertainty of her payment timing – the system does not work well for substitute teachers. The sheer volume of postal communication she receives from the DoES is also surprising.
@Kevin Lynch: the pay system for the entire public sector (teachers, gardai, soldiers, civil servants) was amalgamated and overhauled about 2 yeara ago. The move from local departmental pay sections did cause some inconvenience but brought the payroll onto a system comparable to that used in the private sector
@Vocal Outrage: the entire public sector is not on one payroll system.
You’d know the summer holidays are ending with articles like this. Another school year of complaining about ridiculous things. The majority of people are paid a month in arrears, it’s the one aspect of the real world these teachers have to suffer. A tough 6 weeks ahead of them now until October midterm, how will they do it. And no I do not want to be a teacher, I would just like to not have to hear someone who works 70% of a year complaining all the time.
@D: Always the same old whinge. Teachers have it easy; only work part of the year… blah..blah…blah. Always from people who have never stood in a classroom day after day. Teaching is a job like no other. The pace is relentless and the paperwork inordinately repetitive. Try it sometime and see how long you last!
@D: You must be a hell of a man to work so.
Personally i do not work weekends, so thats 261 work days for me this year. (Thats already close to 70% no?)
Then throw in the bank holidays and annual leave….
@D: Very unfair comment. The person mentioned in the article made some very valid points. Namely, his details are already in the department system but yet it will take over 2 months to set him up on the payroll system again. He has not been paid for the Summer months because he does not have a permanent post and may have to take out a loan to pay his rent. He has studied and trained for over 4 years to become a teacher which in this day and age, is a vocation, given what alot of teachers, particularly secondary school ones have to put up with in the classroom. His points are valid and should certainly not be seen as “whinging”! How about you try stepping into his shoes for a bit “D”?
@D: it’s 2 months in arrears
@Nick Caffrey: take it your a teacher lol I could not do your job and have the greatest respect for teachers they have a tough job and deserve every day of thier time off
@Gavin Conran: 70% of the working year. 260/261 days in the working year for the majority.. schools open 183 days of these.. this gives you 70%
You wouldn’t find a TD or a Government minister in the same dilemma if they were appointed at an irregular time.
@Charles Coughlan: yes you would
Same thing happened to me two years running, due to being on a maternity contract I wasn’t paid for summer then didn’t receive pay in new school year until after Halloween. Difficult to pay bills and mortgage to say the least
Started in my current school in August 2008. Got paid for the first time in February 2009.
@GrahamMManning: OMG! Horrendous! What an outdated, antiquated system ! Disgraceful! That would not be tolerated in the private sector!
@DeeM: yup. Not sure if anything that mental happens now but wouldn’t be shocked. Only survived and paid the mortgage cos i worked full-time nights, week on week off (week on wasn’t fun), and the principal gave me cash in hand a couple of times which was v decent of him but something I don’t think could happen now.
Another load of incompetence from the Dept. A shower of lazy fits that will not do 8 hours work for 4 Weeks week. That is what we are dealing with there now, no doubt an situation forced by Unions , and will force young teachers go without pay for, maybe 4 weeks . Come on lads , get this sorted.
@Eugene Comaskey: how is this the Depts fault? Seriously. Administration in any business takes time and deadlines are required to meet targets. The depts Jul 12 deadline seems to be well known about from the article. It isn’t the dept screwing these teachers, it’s the schools who also know the deadline but aren’t doing their side of the admin in time, as the article also says, the schools are the ones hiring and employing, the dept does the funding
@Vocal Outrage: Fair point. But as the teacher in the article pointed out…the Dept already had his details in their system…why does it take over 2 months to set him up for payment again. This smacks of typical civil service bureaucracy again.
@DeeM: I’d imagine with the number of personnel that would be on their payroll system there would also be an administrative overhead to confirm it is the same person, wouldn’t do to make an assumption, get it wrong and give someones salary to another teacher because they had the same surname.
@Vocal Outrage: No, everything has to rest on a desk for a week or two before anyone touches it. I have experience of a Dept. telling me that a certain thing will soon be done, that was after the paperwork was about 5 weeks with them . She said ” It’s long enough here now” , that’s the way they work, or don’t work in these Depts.
@Vocal Outrage: That shouldn’t take over 2 months to do!!
@DeeM: antiquated business processes are the cause. A combination of newer technology and outsourcing would resolve all of this but the unions would block that as Seamus and Mary are employed to open envelopes and transcribe the form content onto other forms which are then passed to Michael to key into Excel and finally that file is passed to Sheila who then keys into Payroll, not forgetting Grainne who also keys onto the separate HR system. This is all done while working around the 3 day week and term time arrangements of the personnel. I’d be amazed if you found anything different.
They can apply for Supplementary Welfare Allowance while pending their wages (still not fair but it’s an option) Means tested tho again partners income!!
I won’t worry about these teachers too much, at the worst they will get an overdraft from their bank. Most of them are newly qualified and will have a permanent contract in a year or two.
@Aine Power: or they could emigrate
@Aine Power: Load of cr*p!! You have obviously never worked as a teacher.
@Aine Power: eh no. Most of them will be part-time for years. starting salary is 35k half of that is 17.5k try live on that for a year. Hence current shortage of teachers. holidays are good bit they don’t pay the bills
@Aine Power: nonsense. For most it takes years to get a CID. Personally I known half a dozen or more teachers who are 5+ years into their careers and still bouncing around schools hoping this contract (that is rarely full-time) will be the one that leads to a CID and some stability.
I have always found the DES payroll section to be efficient, helpful and thorough. Once the paperwork is in order they get the job done. Slight delays are inevitable if the paperwork is incomplete or interviews run very late. Im not sure how that can be avoided…
@Richard Prendiville: a month? Sure. 2+ months, or in my own case 6 months, are hardly slight delays? And could certainly be avoided.
@GrahamMManning: if you weren’t paid for 6 months – I will bet you anything the problem wasn’t with Payroll – it was either down to incomplete paperwork (which would have been promptly returned) or a delay on the Schools behalf sending the paperwork. Even though they cannot come out and say it about themselves- DES Payroll do get the job done – as unpopular as that may sound… i say that coming from experience of dealing with countless teachers
@Richard Prendiville: I wasn’t. Can’t say where the issue was exactly. But everything I needed to do was done correctly, on time and forwarded by my school cos both myself and my principal kept following it up. Was 2008 so hope nothing similar happens now.
I agree. Also, what baffles me is that there are certain sections of the Department that could be helping payroll out – if manpower is the issue with the delays. For example, what do the ‘redeployment’ sector of the Department do all summer? Surely, all the redeployed teachers will have been sorted by June /July? What do they do for the rest of the summer and year? Can sectors like this not help out payroll?
In these cases, they won’t be paid until the end of October. No pay for 2 months. What other job has a payroll system that lets this happen? Also, it is not a weekly pay.
I experienced lack of being paid properly for nearly 13/14 months after starting teaching….I ended up in hospital. I didn’t have money to buy enough food to eat, couldn’t pay my rent, couldn’t pay my students loans, the stress of it. It’s ridiculous that they get away with this inefficiency…They are actually breaking the rights of employees by forcing them to work on credit.
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