@gareth- there’s absolutely nothing in that research that says Ireland is “pro-choice”. It says that there is an acceptance that in very limited circumstances like suicide and where there is a risk to the life of the mother, the electorate is open to permitting it. But there’s absolutely nothing there that says lets kick open the doors to abortion and let women themselves decide. Which is the essence of “pro-choice”.

@Vincent, ‘Pro-Choice’ is the name of the movement in support of abortion for women who need it. The women in all of these cases may need the option there to terminate their pregnancy. There is a choice in these cases on the women in these situations whether they want to terminate or not. There’s the option that provides the choice on a case-by-case basis. And if semantics about the name of the movement is the only argument you have, you’re on the wrong side!

@Vincent Well jaysus we can’t have the women deciding things!

@gareth- pro-choice is an ideology, not a brand. At its core is a belief in women’s exclusive right to choose whether to have an abortion or not. I was not arguing semantics. I was pointing out that this research simply does not suggest that the Irish nation subscribes to this ideology en masse. Which was your contention.

Vincent is right.
I should decide what happens to the women.
Because I am a man.

@littlejim- you know 19% of healthy babies in the UK are terminated each year. So what you are advocating is opening up legislation that could see 1 in 5 Irish babies aborted. So that moral pontificating you’re doing and that moral high ground you’re claiming? It’s pretty shaky.

1 in 5 foetuses Vincent. If you insist on using terms/words correctly.

@Vincent,we are in Ireland not the UK..the legal systems are different regarding abortion unless we adopt UK law on abortion or think of doing so you’re comment is irrelevant

Eric, I think that most pro-lifers are scared that we will adopt the English model and you’ll have to admit the 1 in 5 statistic is actually quite scary.

The number of Irish terminations is about half the UK ratio, if you presume that 85K are born here each year, and that 4,500 are terminated in UK, and allow a similar number for those who register English addresses or go elsewhere or use medical termination (as opposed to surgical termination).
That’s 9,000terminations, 94,000 pregnancies, rate is less than 10%.
A little perspective folks wouldn’t go amiss!

@james,that 1in5 is misleading its nearly 1in10

@ Vincent Dolan, in your post you stated that “There’s absolutely nothing there that says let’s kick open the doors to abortion and let women decide for themselves. Which is the essence of pro-choice.”
Am just curious as to who in your opinion should have the right to decide for women, seeing of course as in your opinion we can’t be trusted and aren’t capable of deciding for ourselves? Should it be the male dominated, hypocritical bishop licking government along with the misogynistic, elderly male dominated Catholic church. The same compassionate Church that has been torturing and abusing women and children for centuries?
In case you hadn’t noticed Irish women are already deciding for themselves and thousands are travelling every year to access abortion services in England and further afield. It is an absolute disgrace that in the 21st century these services are still not available in Ireland. As always there will still be people who stick their heads in the sand and think that as long as it doesn’t take place on “sacred” Irish soil then it’s not taking place at all. Exactly the same way as they stuck their heads in the sand and ignored the brutalised women and children of the Magdalene laundries and reformatory schools. Unfortunately Irish hypocrisy and double standards is still alive and well.

They are figures that Gavin from thejournal posted here so ill take them as the truth because they are more likely to have done some research than someone with a trolling account.

@ciaran- never had a female friend come up to me after 12 weeks and say: “Great news! I have a foetus with the potential for life in me, should I decide not to intervene”. They always say : I’m having a baby. So that’s good enough for me.

@eric- following in UK footsteps is exactly what the pro-choice movement is advocating so seeing where those footsteps lead is absolutely relevant.

That’s under current law, James.

Eric, correct.
If you look through WHO stats on maternal mortality rates you’ll find that countries that have lax restrictions on termination are by far more safer than countries where restrictions exist.
The only thing that normally changes when one opens up termination is that it becomes safer for pregnant mothers.
Vincent, the essence of the prochoice movement is the fight for safer services. Sure, Ireland is safe for pregnant mothers, but we cannot be seen to rest – we can and must aim for better services.

When we start legislating on the opinions of your friends that will be an important statistic Vincent. Until then we will continue to expect legislation to address the needs and concerns of all our people.

@eric- no Eric, it’s not. This isn’t at all complicated. Do try to keep up. UK figures from their Dept. of Health put the figure at 19%. Existing Irish figures are irrelevant as we have pro-life laws in place. My point is that if we change our pro-life laws to UK pro-choice laws, our statistics will follow theirs. Do I need to get the sock puppets out to explain things to you again?

Existing Irish figures come from other countries Vincent, like the UK…

Vincent, I have no comment on your opinion but I will tell you this; you have an apalling way of communicating with people. Angry, condescending, smug. You should work on it and you’ll find it enables you to be a more effective communicator. Best of luck.

@maura- did I mention the Church? It’s always the pro-abortionists who mention the Church. It’s like a fixation. I don’t have a religious bone in my body and I didn’t mention the Church so what exactly are you talking about? Now, if I say: Jesus said its wrong. Or Buddha, for that matter- feel free to lecture away at me.

@maura- the “trust” thing is another one pro-abortionists throw up all the time as they try to make it an anti-woman thing. The law doesn’t trust men to do the right thing by their children. It compels Fathers to provide for their children. And rightly so. There are too many dead beat Dads who take the easy route and walk away from their responsibilities. Does that make the law anti-man? Is Dáil Éireann guilty of not trusting men? I ask because there are a lot of men in there.

@james- just thinking about what you suggested earlier. If you take your approximation of 10% of babies aborted now by Irish women- at a time when it’s illegal and they have to travel to another country to do it, well then my citing of the 19% in the UK as being a benchmark for Ireland were we to make it legal seems very conservative. Thoughts?

Vincent, not all women who have terminations would travel to the UK – those who may not be able to afford travel to the UK simply have a drug induced termination here in Ireland. There would be a shift from those who have drug induced termination to having a surgical termination, I would highly doubt there would be an increase in the overall figure.
Remember, if a pregnant woman decides termination is for her, a termination will be sought regardless of the laws of the country she is in.
Your argument is rendered null and void by the experience of other countries who have moved to increase availability of termination.

The only thing that changes when you allow termination is that less women die due to termination. The number of terminations remains constant, it doesn’t go up, or down.

@eighties- thank you for the constructive feedback. (Better?) Believe me when I tell you that the smugness and dismissive manner is reserved for those from whom I have been on the receiving end before. Eric, for example. So it’s not my default position. Point taken nonetheless.

@Vincent, I didn”t say you personally were religious and I never stated that you mentioned the church. I merely asked you a question. If you think women should not have the right to make a decision for themselves regarding this issue, then who in your opinion has the right to decide for them?
Please do not try to tell us that the majority of the anti choice movements are not heavily influenced by religious dogma. The amount of rosary beads swinging around at the anti-choice march for ipads last weekend proves the lie in that.

Maura that is like saying how many people are prochoice for no other reason than they hate the RCC and support anything they oppose.

@james- that’s startlingly naive. Accessibility & availability would inevitably lead to more abortions. You can’t possibly believe that having to go abroad isn’t a deterent ? And if you don’t, why bother changing the law here?

@maura- why do you even care who makes up the pro-life movement? What does it matter? Why can’t you argue on the basis of the rights & wrongs of abortion itself? Pro-abortionists speak as though being a Catholic in some way disqualifies you from having an opinion. Like Catholics can’t make up their own mind about abortion as they do about Divorce, Gay marriage etc. Its really very strange. To answer your question as to who decides, society is my answer. Our laws are based on what society as a whole thinks is right and wrong. And society routinely dictates what citizens can and cannot do.

It’s easy to see when Vincent is proved wrong and knows it as the personal insults start,yesterday I was involved in a IRA bank job just because I blew his propaganda sky high

But Vincent.. If our society makes up its mind then why are the two referendums where the majority voted to leave the risk of suicide as grounds for abortion not enough for you?

Why would going abroad be a deterrent? It’s a 45min flight which is almost cheap as chips (thank you Ryanair). It’s a toss up between coughing up €300 for the termination or coughing up the same amount a week for the next 30 years…
Women are very intelligent Vincent, they think with their feet. If they’re gonna get a termination, they’re gonna get one. The law of the land doesn’t stop them. You don’t have to believe me Vincent, you’re unlikely to anyways, just look at the statistics…

@ James Attley, I am pro choice not because I hate the Catholic church. The Catholic church is of no relevance to me whatsoever. I am pro choice because I believe that a woman has an absolute right to sovereignty and self determination over her own life and her own body.
@ Vincent Dolan, I have no problem with Roman Catholics or people of any religious persuasion having an opinion on any subject. What I do object to is the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church seeking to dictate how people should live their lives and also seeking to dictate the legislative laws of this country. I do not think an organisation of mostly elderly men who impose an unnatural law of celibacy on it’s members and then seek to protect and cover up for those amongst it’s rank who have commited heinous crimes against children have any right to dictate anything to anybody. Interesting how they have such apparent concern for unborn foetuses but no respect or concern whatsoever for the many terrified, brutalised children they bullied and coerced into vows of silence concerning the priests who had raped them.
As Shanti Om has so eloquently pointed out on here many times, the people have already decided in two referendums that a risk of suicide is grounds for a woman to receive a termination if that is what she requests. So Vincent, that was society’s decision, it is now time for the Government to get on with the long overdue legislation.

Then why do prochoicers always make it a centre point of their argument. Pathetic really.

Which church is THE church. The arrogance of your presumption that the catholic church is THE church

I make a point of not bringing it in to the argument unless the person I spoke to brought it up – as I said below, using religion as a reason to oppose abortion is silly anyway, there’s no passage in the bible that condemns abortion outside of thou shalt not kill. The only references to abortion in the bible are god dishing them out and ripping women apart, so the whole thing is moot unless someone tries to use god or the church as a reason for their stance.

@ James Attley, Why do so many anti choicers bring rosary beads and crucifixes on their marches? Why do they stand outside womens’ clinics in England singing hymns, chanting bible passages and offering to pray for the “poor fallen women” who are accessing the services of the clinic. Why do Youth Defence continuously talk about “God” and quote the bible on their Facebook page. If they would read some of the passages in the Old Testament they might discover that apparently their “God” was a fairly prolific abortionist himself.
@ Betty Lou McGuire, the Catholic church is THE church that had a strangle hold over this country for many years. Just ask the survivors of it’s institutions and it’s abuse. A few weeks ago their leader in Rome said that gay marriage was a “threat to humanity”. How the hell can a loving relationship between two consenting adults be considered a “threat to humanity”. Just more of the twisted logic from the sinister institution that is the Catholic church.

Because they are religious groups that have the same opinion. I find really funny that the prochoice brigade make out that people can’t be trusted to make up their own minds on the subject yet it’s your whole argument.

Pro choice advovates fully accept and trust the rights of anti choice and/or people who hold religious beliefs to make their own choices in their lives regarding this issue.If Ireland’s abortion laws were liberalised nobody would force them to have an abortion if they did not wish to do so.
Anti-choice advocates have no probem however with attempting to deny a woman in a crisis pregnancy the same right to make a choice for herself regarding her own life and her own body.

Maura, you know just as well as everyone that 1 in 5 pregnancies in the uk are not ‘crisis’. I cant understand why the pro-choicers just don’t say what they actually mean that they want abortion to be legalised as a form of contraception.

James – are you sure that you are really in a position to judge every woman who accesses abortion services?
The truth is that we do not know the motivation behind every single one. There may well be some very messed up women out there who, rather than use contraception, would prefer to take their chances and subject themselves to a rather unpleasant and generally expensive procedure instead. But they would be a distinct minority.

You and I are still speaking in hypotheticals, but each of those women was dealing with a reality, perhaps this should be kept in mind?

James noone has the right to dictate what is or is not a crisis pregnancy, each situation is unique and personal to the people involved. As Shanti has pointed out very few women would put themselves through an invasive and expensive procedure just because they are too lazy or careless to use contraception. In an ideal world of course there would be no crisis pregnancies and no need for abortion but the world is not ideal and people should have the right to make choices for themselves accordingly and allow others the same rights and freedom of choice.

@maura- James Connolly earlier on was saying its dead easy to tip across the water & have an abortion and that making it legal here wouldn’t lead to an increase in terminations here. You seem to disagree?

I don’t know if it would make a huge difference, considering that there was hardly any difference in numbers getting abortions between the boom times and the economic crisis. The main difference would be that it would be a little less traumatic if the women in question didn’t have to travel and got support at home!

Vincent, I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking me so I’ll try to answer as best I can. The only comment I made regarding Irish abortion statistics was the fact that thousands of women travel to England every year, the exact figure is unclear because many women don’t give Irish addresses and some others travel further afield, whether those figures would increase if Ireland introduced more liberal abortion laws I honestly have no idea as I’[m not a statistician.
We obviously completely disagree with each others view points Vincent but while disagreeing with you I also completely respect your right to hold and express your opinions on this topic and that is my last post on here.

Vincent should receive the best debater award . He is balanced ,fair and objective. Well done Vincent

To be honest Shane 1) you can’t truly call yourself a practicing catholic IF you don’t follow the teaching of the church 2) abortion has nothing to do with whether you are a catholic or not. It’s a much bigger issue even though some would like to make it just about the church

I accept your second point Bridget!
I know this is not as simple as the Church on one side, everyone opposed on the other.
I do think this debate would benefit from distancing itself from the Church.
This is something we, as a society in modern-day Ireland, are not always comfortable with!

I also respect your stance on this issue, in general, and although I disagree with it, I’m not naive enough to claim that my opinion is “more right” than yours or anyone else’s.

Just briefly on your first point because I don’t want to derail this topic, practicing Christians have always challenged the Church’s teachings. I’ve studied this and the Church I follow now is far removed from the one that was there years ago. The only way an institution like the Catholic Church could have survived with such power and authority is to be dynamic and allow itself to change (slowly mind!) as society dictates…

Before you red thumb me just hear me out:

I think that nobody wants abortion on-demand, (hold on red thumbs) where we can terminate at will at any time during a pregnancy.
I think rape should not be included as many drunken one-night stands my be enough to justify a rape, even though full consent was given.

However If a severe medical condition was diagosed by a doctor that would threaten the life of the mother or child (not sucide) then that should be legislated for.

But how can we take that decision away from a rape victim?

An innocent victim of a heinous crime who has to live with a reminder for the rest of her life!
Some victims will choose to keep the baby and my respect to them, but for those who want a termination, surely they have endured enough and deserve to make that decision for themselves!!!

To be honest you can’t call yourself Christian if you do not follow the teachings of Jesus. And the Catholic Church, DOESN’T.

God isn’t pro life. In fact – god quite happily hands out abortions, rips pregnant women apart and kills infants all over the bible so to claim religion as a reason to oppose abortion is ludicrous.

Never mind the fact that Catholicism ascribes sin to foetuses that’s only cleansed at baptism.. So how do they reconcile the “innocence”? Not to mention how the Catholic Church only considers foetuses human in the abortion debate, when it comes to medical negligence it’s just a foetus and not a person in their estimation..

And lastly – how the Catholic Church, steeped in opposition to sex education, contraception AND single mothers, also opposes abortion.. Those things cannot all be held together – if they were anti abortion they would logically have to be in favour of the other three, but no.. They actually oppose them.. You couldn’t make it up..

And then, last but not least – the fact that this organisation claims any sort of moral authority after the horrific abuses of women and children carried out in their name..

The church has no place in this debate, it has no credibility and no morals to preach from. If you oppose abortion for personal reasons that’s fair enough, but the church only cheapens the “pro life” side of the debate.

just replying to Shanti’s comment, on this thread. Alot of commenters making the convenient assumption that most pro lifers are influenced by their catholic faith. That may well be true in many cases. However I have ‘pro life’ views, but I am a non practising catholic. Also I have friends, who are not christian/catholic, & who are atheist/agnostic, & who respect & share my pro life views. I am pro life, based on my understanding of medical science, rather than anything to do with the RCC. Recent medical research has shown, that the unborn foetus/child has a far greater range of responses, & reflexes, at a much earlier age, than was previously realised.
I feel the ongoing technology of Ultrasound in medicine, has much to add to this debate, – more so than any church or priest.

My comment was in direct response to a comment about the church – I do not believe that all anti choicers are so due to religious conviction. Was merely pointing out the absurdity of claiming that religion is a reason for being pro life (or that Catholicism and Christianity have anything to do with each other).

As for ultrasound being an advance in our understanding, how about the fact that we can conclusively state that in terms of gestation the relevant centres of the brain for processing pain and conscious thought are not linked up until between week 20 – 24 should make the fact that some women may choose termination a little easier for the anti choice brigade to cope with.. Never mind the fact that without the mother – that foetus couldn’t survive the world until after week 20..

A baby can’t survive on its own after its born either so I don’t buy that argument.

James. Once a baby is born it can be taken elsewhere and cared for.
If a baby is born before 20 weeks then there’s no way it can survive even with the best medical teams on the planet – and if it does, it will not be fully formed, it’s life will be agonisingly short.
If a baby is born before the 13 week point – where most abortions take place, then it’s never going to survive no matter what.

This was what I meant, surely you were able to see that? Why insert a straw man?

“Once a baby is born it can be taken elsewhere and cared for” …..exactly! Better that than in a bucket.

Well James. If a woman feels that she is able to continue with the pregnancy and offer the child up for adoption then that should be her choice, or if she wishes to carry her child that has a fatal foetal abnormality to term then that should be her choice.

people who oppose abortion come from all areas of irish society , muslims , jews, catholics , protestants , non religous . It always amazes me how every issue is turned into an anti catholic discussion , the ‘minority’ opinions of Libertarian groups who lets face it get all the Media coverage nowadays feed off of this , they use it as an argument to legalise everything and have a no rules society , oh well its only catholics against it yet again bla bla bal we must do the opposite , its crazy how immature the debates are on not just this website but also other sites like politics.ie and boards about such issues , of course the fact that 30 000 irish people recently turned out at a pro life vigil in the freezing cold doesn’t matter a damn to anyone , its all the catholics fault , they are to blame for all the problems in the world according to Libertarian Ireland.

Zoe, I’ve been told to “eff off to hell already” for refusing to take a YD piece of propaganda on the street. Effectively condemning me to the worst fate imaginable for all of eternity is definitely not worse than me calling you stupid because you believe that there are no circumstances where an abortion can save the life of the woman carrying the foetus.

I got banned from the Youth Defence Facebook page for asking them to provide a source for a statement they had paid to be displayed on my (and countless others) news feed as a “suggested post”.

I do not “like” their page, but they were spamming my news feed – and continued to do so after they had blocked me. It seems I am forced to put up with them spamming my news feed, but I am not afforded the right to reply. Same goes for Family & Life.

That, I feel, is the very definition of ramming your opinions down people’s throats while simultaneously denying them their freedom of speech.. Mind you, denying people freedoms seems to be these groups main preoccupation..

Barry what if that baby is a girl … What about her most basic right to life?!??

I’m saying her right to life is entirely dependent on the choice of her mother. Her independent right to life should be earned when she gains the ability to think, suffer and be viable outside the womb. Until then she is not a person and does not have human rights.

If you think it’s still singled cell a twenty weeks I think you need to do some homework.

Well That’s where our opinion differ Barry and I don’t think anyone should have the right to take another life, mother or anyone else

James the frontier of the current law is at the point of conception . If you want to defend the current law you have to defend the placing of human rights on a single celled embryo. At 20 weeks a foetus cannot think, suffer or be viable outside the womb in that case I’m saying that an abortion would be entirely ethical.

If its a life as you say, why don’t people have funerals for miscarriage ??

Gorilla, I know of many women and men who have been devastated but a miscarriage, really think before you submit…

There is nothing ethical about abortion… Do some more research, google the doctors who performed abortion and stopped for many reasons and now with modern technology you can see how they react to the abortionist tools.. Google…

Lots of embryologists on this i see.

You mean stuff from anti choice sites Bridget?
Sorry, but up until 13 weeks (which is when most abortions take place) you still have a high chance of miscarriage, which is technically abortion too.
Not everyone who miscarries is upset – some women breathe a massive sigh of relief.. Why can’t you respect the fact that not everyone sees it like you, no one is asking for people to be forced to have abortions, while you would gladly force a woman to carry a pregnancy and give birth against her will..
Perhaps you don’t believe in rape if you have so little respect for other women’s choices and decisions.. Maybe they should just have sex when told eh?

Actually shanti I research lots and lots of sites.. Do you?!?! Don’t assume anything!! Or be applying “your” opinions of what “you” think pro-life people say… Not good

Bridget, my search for abortion doctors speaking out against abortion led me to anti choice sites.. I just called it like I saw it..

Care to share your sources, then, Bridget?

Bridget,

Then put this issue to the vote of the people of Ireland,

If you think that the pro-life vote will win out then you have nothing to fear,

Of course you and me know that you do fear that common sense will win out and that abortion will indeed be allowed in cases of rape or incest because Ireland has had enough of the backwards catholic church telling people how to live their lives.

are you scared to allow people to vote on this matter, are you scared that you’ll be very much proven wrong? :)

Barry I just wish they would hold a referendum then we could get a proper debate in public

Bridget, – just to say I am a young woman, who agrees with your pro life views. Don’t worry too much about the many insults appearing below. Even if I did not agree with your opinion, I would still respect your right to express your views, without being subject to abuse.
The ‘Pro Life’ movement Is now worldwide, – and there are many out there who share our views. Many out there starting to see through the agenda of a liberal ‘pro choice’ media, & recognise it for what it is.
So just to say, – fair play to you, for standing up against the tide & not being bullied into silence.

Zoe, recognising the agenda of a liberal ‘pro choice’ media……

What would that be exactly? Please do enlighten us all.

- Would it be that women should be able to control their own bodys in cases of rape or incest?

or perhaps

- Religious organizations should not be dictating people’s life’s anymore, especially if people don’t subscribe to the teachings/belief of that religion?

Please do enlighten us to your big conspiracy theory

Ironic that you suggested the ending of an innocent life, in an article about fatal fetal abnormalities. You people don’t even read anymore, just write rubbish and insist everyone agree no matter how backward, insensitive and ludicrous your opinion is! Ye are getting real tiresome now!

Thank you Zoe, keep up the good work yourself…

We have had TWO referendums asking whether the risk of suicide should be excluded from the constitution as an acceptable reason for an abortion..
It’s still in there, the majority voted and the results were “keep it”..

The attendance for a march that included people from overseas, had technological incentives for attendance, free buses laid on from all over the country, masses of AMERICAN money pumped into it and grossly exaggerated the numbers in attendance, is no indication of the public at large..
There was roughly the same amount in attendance for the Savita march – upon which hardly any money was spent, and everyone there made their OWN way..

By all means, bring on a referendum. Lets have a referendum on whether we want that ridiculous 8th Amendment removed for the safety of all women.. After all, we’ve only had one vote on that, 30 years ago..

Bridget, shame on you who tries to guilt people into your point of view. You have no right to tell any woman in my life what they should do with their bodies, nor do you have any right WHATSOEVER to tell a poor woman who has been raped or is experiencing the horrendous trauma of fatal fetal abnormalities what to do to assist them with their grieve and trauma, NONE! The sooner you stop trying to shove your opinion down other peoples throats as somehow being the “only right option” the sooner people may engage with you. When was the last time you volunteered with some sick or poor kids? Or do you only care about embryos and foetuses? I mean once they are out of the womb they are fair game to be used in Youth Defence propaganda!

Shame on you for disregarding the life of the mother if the foetus isn’t viable! Shame on you for condemning a traumatised girl to carry to term a pregnancy from rape! Shame on you for not letting women choose what to do with THEIR OWN bodies! Shame shame shame on you…

Oh Diarmaid so you do feel guilty for your opinion on the right for any woman who wishes to take the life of a child… Good
How do you know what I do..Assumption again… I could have worked in hospital abroad for years and seen the devastation suffered by the mother and to the child maybe thast is how I developed my opinion and I could volunteer at the local shelter but why would that be any if your business.. Judging .. But as long as your remarks make your opinion LOOK better than mine then that’s ok. Right

What are you talking about? You do realise factually and medically it’s an embryo that is in a womans womb until 12 weeks and a foetus thereafter until birth, NOT A CHILD! But then again why ever did “prolife” stick to facts!!??

Good attempt at diverting the question too! If you care for children so much why aren’t you helping the 1000′s of abused, hungry or sick rather than coming on here giving people guilt trips and acting all self righteous! Cue another diversionary tactic to dodge the question!

Actually Diarmaid, I do care for others and glad that i can..Im all for people doing more for their community, society… Not just sitting posting comments….I’m a foster parent to many neglected and abused children, I’m a support worker for troubled teens….I’m a wife and mother.. I’m many things…

Care to elaborate where and with what organisations you do that? Otherwise it’s just meaningless unproved drivel…..

These abused kids you take in, if one of them got pregnant by a rape would you shout “shame, shame, shame on you” at them if they were looking for support and an abortion to help them cope with their trauma! I would imagine social services might need to do a home-check if that’s how you conduct yourself when caring for vulnerable, then again, how do I even know you’re not talking out your hat!

Are you also willing to accept that you have been misleading and infactual in your comments – No child is present in an abortion, that’s not my opinion, that is an undeniable medical fact!

The “shame shame” comment at the start of this thread was in direct response to a Pro choice use of the words in his comment… I don’t care to elaborate on anything, I don’t have to, it’s none of ur business…..Again don’t assume anything I would say or do as you don’t know me, let’s not make this personal Thanks :)

I will make it personal when you start going round making reckless comments on a thread of such a sensitive topic. Your comments are idiotic and offensive to the thousands of women who find themselves in such awful circumstances every year. Your seem to want to guilt trip those women already in pain, so again, I will make it personal when you attack women like that! And my reference to charity work is I find it amazing listening to the poison from all these supposed do gooders like yourself who supposedly care about children so much but somehow have never worked with a sick or disadvantaged one in your life, CONVENIENTLY it’s now none of my business, caught out in more spoofies like the rest of your friends in pro life!

Agh Deirmaid, I think you are getting a bit mad and off the topic… My comment is reckless!!! Why because its not the same as yours…What my job is, is none of ur business, simple… I didn’t and wouldn’t ask u what is yours..it has nothing to do with our believes in the pro life or choice debate… Don’t be name calling, very childish to be honest..

Plus Diarmaid you are the only one talking about making woman feel guilty… What does that say at a subconscious level???